BajaNomad - Loreto Bay Foundation

Loreto Bay Foundation

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oldhippie - 7-20-2007 at 07:04 AM

Is the following the truth or not? Any opinions/factual knowledge?

The ideas of a high school equivalency diploma and teaching English as a second language to the construction workers seem bogus to me. I doubt most of them can read and write Spanish with proficiency. Aren't most of them from an indigenous (non-Spanish speaking) background? If so, teaching reading and writing Spanish would be more beneficial.
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Loreto Bay Foundation Meets $1 Million Mark
Sustainability is Taken Beyond Environmental Concerns to Social and Economic

LORETO BAY, BAJA CALIFORNIA SUR, MEXICO- July 10, 2007 While Loreto Bay Company is already a pioneer in sustainable real estate through their development practices, the Company's charitable arm, Loreto Bay Foundation has added new meaning to this initiative by aiding not only the surrounding environment, but also the local community and its people. The non-profit organization established by Loreto Bay Company, to serve the economic and social needs of the historic town of Loreto, has taken three major initiatives to better the community by awarding grants in different areas, including:

The Loreto Workers Fund- The primary activity of this fund is to support and enhance education and capacity-building for Loreto workers. Particularly, the Foundation is working to improve the standard of living of the recent influx of construction workers, to remind contractors and labor brokers of their legal obligations, and enhancing educational opportunities for off-duty workers. Opportunities include the offering of programs to obtain a GED equivalent, a fully equipped library with books and games and ESL classes to improve their language skills.

The Loreto Children Fund- The purpose of this fund is to improve the quality of life of the children of Loreto. The Foundation is currently working with the non-profit educational program Outward Bound to establish a training program for Loreto teens and recently joined ProBea, an environmental education organization to develop a new curriculum for the Loreto school system. To date, over $23,000 in grants has been awarded in this area, which has led to scholarships for children and the creation of a youth soccer league in Loreto.

Loreto Medical Facility- This fund focuses on the improvement of medical services for the Loreto Bay community by supporting the creation of a state-of-the-art medical facility. The Foundation has created a sub-fund so that home owners and others could contribute. This sub-fund has already raised over $100,000 to be paired with the Loreto Bay Company's pledge of $850,000 to the Baja California Sur State Health Services Institute to fund the new medical facility in Loreto. In addition, the Foundation has awarded $8,000 to the Loreto Drug Rehabilitation Center to support their facility, among other grants awarded in this area.

http://www.baja-relocation.com/rssfeed/loreto_bay.htm

Pescador - 7-20-2007 at 07:19 AM

Well, that clinches it, I am going to buy at least one house in Loreto Bay. :lol:

CaboRon - 7-20-2007 at 07:23 AM

They sound like such wonderful people ...... :lol:

bajajudy - 7-20-2007 at 12:10 PM

Ask Pam what she thinks of this foundation
Pam?

capn.sharky - 7-20-2007 at 12:15 PM

"Loreto Bay Company, to serve the economic and social needs of the historic town of Loreto". If they want to do something like this, why don't they just pack up and leave. :lol:

Please acknowledge

Sharksbaja - 7-20-2007 at 12:18 PM

LBFs' "Loretos' Ol' Foggies Fund". too!

805gregg - 7-20-2007 at 01:20 PM

Sounds like they want to help everything, except the way of life.

wilderone - 7-20-2007 at 01:30 PM

Why they feel they must expound in this way is very odd. For the full 2006 Annual Report: http://www.loretobayfoundation.org/index.php?tg=fileman&...

wilderone - 7-20-2007 at 01:37 PM

"has added new meaning to this initiative by aiding not only the surrounding environment, but also the local community and its people. "
Gee - how unique. Look at International Community Foundation (ICF) and its exemplary grant history, benefitting the people of Baja CA. http://www.icfdn.org/publications/ar2006/004_icffun.html
Do you see them crowing about their accomplishments? Don't the LB Co. people get a rash from all that back-patting each other?

jerry - 7-20-2007 at 01:44 PM

if loreto bay does it it has to be bad ????lol more doom and gloom to come

flyfishinPam - 7-20-2007 at 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajajudy
Ask Pam what she thinks of this foundation
Pam?

some quick thoughts during my busy high season gear July.

on ESL to the construction workers, oldhippie is right, most are indigenous and Spanish would be their second language so why don't they educate them to further their Spanish skills, we are in Mexico.

on changing the curriculum of Loreto's schools...they come here and think they can change everything, well the curriculum could use some serious change but I think they need to get approval from SEP not the city of Loreto as this is fed jurisdiccion, buenas suerte, they'll need it! :lol:

I do LOVE the idea of youth soccer leagues as I have a four year old that really needs to start playing on an organized team, he's ready now and may lost interest by the time he hits primaria which is when they start them here.

on the medical facility, well they keep innaugurating it, presidente, govenor, mayor and it is still not ready. Its a beautiful white cinderblock shell with no working interior, medical equipment or doctors. the facility is being built to sell homes because the old folks buing in will likely be concerned at the serious lack of medical care offered in Loreto..l Loreto can't even offer childbirth to its women whey all go to Ciudad Constucion or La Paz, they misdiagnose all the time and folks need to travel hours elsewhere to see doctors that have equipment such as ultrasound, x-ray, lab tests, surgery, etc.

if Loreto Bay does it does it have to be bad? no it does not but Loreto Bay does not do anything that won't draw attention to themselves which in turn generates more money for them. Watch Jerry as your neighbors sell out and their lives are changed completely by the vast development in our area. I cannot just sand by and watch because I truly love these people.

flyfishinPam - 7-20-2007 at 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
Why they feel they must expound in this way is very odd. For the full 2006 Annual Report: http://www.loretobayfoundation.org/index.php?tg=fileman&...

I'm copying and pasting this entire URL but get an access denied message?

oldhippie - 7-20-2007 at 05:23 PM

It is quite a marketing strategy. Maybe it's part of the deal with Fonatur (the big bite), cloaked in benevolence.

Great if it's really happening. Accounting for the money once it's in pesos must be tough.

It would make more sense to spend the money on desalination before they dry up the aquifers. I doubt the dehumidifiers will do the trick.

Something stinks, very fishy. It doesn't make sense.

capt. mike - 7-20-2007 at 05:41 PM

boohoo....whine whine.....

watch the market.....it rules all!

my friends are EXTREMELY happy with their LB investment.

and i laugh when i tell them i'd never buy there! haha -
:lol:

and i am invited to visit - as soon as it cools i will, i love Loreto.

they know i am trailer trash at heart - but accept me anyway cause i know which fork to use at which course during the white tie stuff....... :wow:

oldhippie - 7-20-2007 at 06:35 PM

Come on captain mike, you just expressed the real shame of it all.

Trading in pristine country for a quick buck (maybe).

Tell your "friends" to invest in google. It's a lot less complicated and much more liquid.

[Edited on 7-21-2007 by oldhippie]

[Edited on 7-21-2007 by oldhippie]

jerry - 7-20-2007 at 08:15 PM

JUST 1 MORE THING ID LIKE TO SAY TO LORETO BAY
THANK YOU FOR FOLLOWING THROU WITH YOUR PROMISE OF KICKING BACK MONEY TO LORETO HEALTH EDUCATION AND WELFARE THAT YOU SAID YOU WOULD 'BROVO BRAVO' BECAUSE THIS WILL MAKE A BIG EFFECT ON THE PEOPLE
I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO SOME WILL SAY ITS NEVER ENOFF

huh??!!

capt. mike - 7-21-2007 at 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
Come on captain mike, you just expressed the real shame of it all.

Trading in pristine country for a quick buck (maybe).

Tell your "friends" to invest in google. It's a lot less complicated and much more liquid.

[Edited on 7-21-2007 by oldhippie]

[Edited on 7-21-2007 by oldhippie]

what the ell did you say?! Have you changed your bong water recently?............
:smug:

trust me, they can and do invest in a broad spectrum of diversification. Real estate happens to be one of the best. They don't consider the vaca home in LB an investment tho - they are smart - its nothing more than a get a way toy.
and heck - if they get bored with it and want to sell - if it makes a buck great, if not = who gives a t urd, they used it. :lol:

oldhippie - 7-21-2007 at 06:26 AM

"invest in a broad spectrum of diversification" eh?

Oh, I see. I think I understand what you're attempting to say. They bought Mexican real estate at bubble prices in an attempt to diversify their investment portfolios. But, if they lose money that's OK, because they enjoyed their time in Loreto. That is what you tried to say, right?

Sorry you don't understand what I'm saying. "Trading in pristine country for a quick buck (maybe)." I don't know how to make it more simple.

"they know i am trailer trash at heart - but accept me anyway " - just buy a new t-shirt and cold cup - you'll be OK.

Good luck with your mortgage business.

oldhippie - 7-21-2007 at 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
JUST 1 MORE THING ID LIKE TO SAY TO LORETO BAY
THANK YOU FOR FOLLOWING THROU WITH YOUR PROMISE OF KICKING BACK MONEY TO LORETO HEALTH EDUCATION AND WELFARE THAT YOU SAID YOU WOULD 'BROVO BRAVO' BECAUSE THIS WILL MAKE A BIG EFFECT ON THE PEOPLE
I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO SOME WILL SAY ITS NEVER ENOFF

Jerry, I started this thread simply wondering if it is true or not and pointing out teaching English to Mexicans who have poor Spanish skills is rather odd. They would benefit more by improving their skills in the language spoken in the country they're citizens of.

I guess you live there. Don't you think my point that they spend money on desalination, which is required to pull off their plans, is better? Afterall, the rest is unimportant if there isn't a sufficient water supply. Have they built the desal facility yet? And if not, why not?

Another idea, if the development slows down, those of you who currently own will find that your houses are more valuable via simple supply and demand.

You know what I think about this development, convince me that I'm wrong. Until then, I'm not going to stop and will be expanding my efforts.

capt. mike - 7-21-2007 at 08:01 AM

"You know what I think about this development, convince me that I'm wrong. Until then, I'm not going to stop and will be expanding my efforts"

:lol:

ROTFLMFAO!!!!

boy, i'll bet Grogan and company are worried you're on the case.....NOT!

and BTW, i don't attempt or try to say things, i just go ahead and say them. :cool:

Again, i don't own a mtg biz - i rep for them and they don't need luck. They are doing great helping forward thinking people buy foreign property and enjoying the lifestyle.

Who's that Krutch curmudgeon anyway?... did he live in a tent by a stream someplace? :lol:

:moon:

jerry - 7-21-2007 at 11:14 AM

i decide how to spend my money you decide how you spend yours why the hell do you think you or anyone else on this board should decide how loreto bay should spend theres COMEON PAM YOU KNOW THAT SPEAKING ENGLISH IN MEXICO ALL WAYS ALLOWS YOU TO EARN MORE MONEY A CERTIN NUMBER OF THESE WORKERS WILL STAY IN LORETO AS WILL THERE FAMILYS THE WHOLE TOWN WILL BENAFIT FROM THE EDUCATION
i hear all the b-tching about the streets the schools the medical for the poor people of loteto by the gringo crowd and when loreto bay does do something for the locals there dammed for that too

I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO UNDERSTAND YOUR PIONTS OF VIEWS BUT I JUST CANT GET MY HEAD THAT FAR UP MY ARSE

flyfishinPam - 7-21-2007 at 04:45 PM

Interestingly enough I was just at Loreto Bay a few hours ago. My children and I were at the hotel to deliver fish to folks that departed on the flight this afternoon. This year most of our clientele were in hotels in town so we haven't been to LB to deliver fish in awhile. Our custom last summer was to deliver the fish then walk all the way around Nopolo point afterward before going back home. So we decided to do it again today. Kids were excited. They love the tide pools there and climbing on the rocks.

Parking at the hotel was almost impossible so I used a Hertz space until the client had their fish and we said our good bye's. Then I decided to drive off the hotel grounds and to the access road to the North of the property that was always open to access the parking lot and beach. Know what? That road leads to construction jobs and the access to the playa is completely closed. We turned around and parked on the road. No access whatsoever to the beach for the public. We walked through the hotel but we were fairly well dressed so were un-noticed when we did.

Once we reached the point there were about two dozen construction workers walking to the pocky point. It must have been just after quittin' time so they were taking a swim. I wonder how much longer LB will let them get away with that there? One thing that was hard to not notice was that these guys were not speaking spanish, they spoke another language, probably an indian language from the mainland where they're from. My kids asked me what they were saying and they actually noticed it first. We walked all the way around the point and came upon the workers again who were relaxing in the shade. The backdrop was the shoreline of Nopolo Bay and the hundreds of new buildings where there were once low dunes covered with salt tolerant grasses and herbs.

The few persons I told about the lack of beach access were surprised. Many people just haven't gone there in a long time, maybe several months as there's no reason to go there. It used to be that on Sundays Nopolo was THE beach to go to for Loretanos. There are not very many beaches for the public to use because there just aren't that many beaches in our area that are easily accessable. Now beach access is fast becoming a constitutional right of the past. I hope that Loretanos are well aware of this.

I mentioned to my children that this will probably the last summer that we can walk around that point so casually. This fact did not make them happy. Nopolo point and the laguna behind it where the golf course reconstruction is underway, was one of the favorite fishing holes of the late Ray Cannon. It looks like the golden years of the Sea of Cortez are behind us now, at least for the average baja citizen.

flyfishinPam - 7-21-2007 at 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO UNDERSTAND YOUR PIONTS OF VIEWS BUT I JUST CANT GET MY HEAD THAT FAR UP MY ARSE

are you telling me my head is up mi arse? I invite you to come to my public place and tell me that to my face. why on earth you would make that connection is beyond me. I complain about the streets just like every Loreto buinessperson because they have caused us to lose income and inventory. you do not gripe because you are not affected, so STFU aboutit! also you say the situation is the citys fault and not Loreto Bays but it is, unfortunately the powers that be are playing a political game at our expense and it being done supposedly to make way for all this growth that is definately unsustainable. Jerry you ought to apply at Loreto Bay they can always use more propogandists.

oldhippie - 7-21-2007 at 05:16 PM

Thanks Pam for the information. Cutting off public access to the beach is one of the hallmarks of the Loreto Bay type developments. After awhile the tidepools you wanted to see may be devoid of life if the local people let the developers have their way. I wonder what will happen when the insecticides used on the landscaping and golf courses leach their way to the shoreline.

Any news on sales numbers and the state of the desal plant?

Owners should be concerned about these things too.

jerry - 7-21-2007 at 05:23 PM

NOTE your points of views plural
i didnt single your or anyone out

no matter what if loreto bay has anything to do with its going to be finding fault with that isnt fare

i havent seen the complaning gringos donate $1000,000 dollars

take the blinders off fair is fair if you want to be heard , half truths ignoring the truth by over shadowing it with complaints, or blaming them for the citys short commings, does convince me of anything other then people like to b-tch
facts speak for them selves and $1000'000 speaks loudly

now if you want to keep up with the water problem or other real problems im listening

oldhippie - 7-21-2007 at 05:31 PM

Glad your listening because you have first hand knowledge, and that's what I want to know. I'm willing to listen to what pro Loreto Bay folks have to say.

I want to expand upon the point that owners and others with interest in LB should be concerned about the environmental impacts. The current owners are lucky, they have a piece of a nice area and it is in their interests to protect it. That's all I'm after.

Ask someone who bought in early to Cabo San Lucas what they think about it now. That's the likely course of events unless a strong organization is developed to keep tabs on the developers. They're just out for money at all costs. That's the nature of their business and how the "successful" ones operate.

Baja_Girl - 7-21-2007 at 07:43 PM

Oh, this is too precious...
okay, so some of you might know that I received a letter from R. Scott Montell, Chief General Counsel, of Loreto Bay, complaining about "possible trademark infringement" as a result of my buying my www.loretobaycompany websites. Attached to his letter was a copy of one of my Baja_Girl postings on baja nomad...hi Scott!! So, obviously they are watching and reading what's going on in this forum.
It might be that they realize that there are caring, skeptical people that are going to watch and keep the public informed about what's really going on.

...in the meantime, some of you know that I missed my flight on Sunday, July 10, out of Loreto so I was "forced" to stay an extra day. Oh well. Life is tough.

As I was driving around to find a snorkel place with some friends, we were approached but a nice man on a scooter. An employee of the Loreto Bay Inn. (Oh, she says to herself, this is too funny.) So, I went on to ask about the Inn and Loreto Bay...
...He is NOT from Loreto, his wife REFUSES to move here with their children because of the poor schools...he said that he would NEVER live in one of the homes because "its so cramped and close together you can hear each other fart" - and he "would never live in one" himself. He understands that LBC is going to build a school. Where? Nopolo. (Very good for Loreto's children, right?)
He admits that there is no "water harvesting" going on right now because "there is enough water to last for another five years" - but LBC has great plans to build a dam so that rain water doesn't run off into the ocean. (That will solve alot of problems.) Once the water pipes are fixed, there will be enough water for another whopping 3000 people!!!
The kicker was when I innocently asked about trash, and he said that he was always told to recycle - and that a big truck came and took the recyclable trash away to Tijuana.
I was told that the LBC people think that at most they will have 20% normal occupancy and up to 50 - 60% during holidays. So, not to worry...they really won't need all that much more water.

It was scary. This poor lad seemed to really believe that he was working for a good company that was going to fulfill its promises. I never told him who I was, or why I was asking all those pesky questions. But, of course, someone at LBC is aware that there are people out there, asking questions.
The real problem with LBC is that the airport will only bring in so many people per day. If those people are being shuttled off to LBC, then they are not eating at Mexican-owned restaurants, shopping in Mexican own businesses, and infusing real money to the community. The Mexican workers make pennies, and the American gringo executives make a fortune.
And worse, they do it by exploiting the reputation of the sweet, nice village that they are destined to destroy.
Hi Scott - so where is that big bad lawsuit from your counsel?
Trucks driving trash to Tijuana...the sum total of LBC's so-called sustainability efforts. So of course they have to pretend to be the good guys..."Oh see what we do..."
Does this help clarify what is going on?

craiggers - 7-21-2007 at 11:31 PM

Gotta just love all the "Hey hey you, get off of my clould" (because I was here first) attitude. The decline of the sea of cortez started when the Spaniards arrived in the sixteenth century not when the evil Loreto Bay Co arrived. All non indiginess business owners and residents of Loreto should also share some of the "blame" for Loreto's popularity. The only thing about Loreto that is going to really change is the way YOU remember it. the change has been going on for centuries and if you even visit you change things down there.

jerry - 7-22-2007 at 12:07 AM

baja-girl ? was this conversation in english or spanish?? was his name jesus??
lol
and because your a gringo you need to pretend that you care about loreto?? when all you really want to do is live in infamy and try to destroy loreto bay??
all recycled metals that i know of are shipped to TJ to be prossed is that strange?? its been going on a long time befor you got to loreto lol
wow a worker from loreto bay riding around on a scooter with a family some where else that has a lot better education system he must be an exuctive in loreto bay by your pennies standards
why would you believe him?? lol

Russ - 7-22-2007 at 07:19 AM

I've always found Loreto enchanting. A place of dreams and dreamers. I've enjoyed the people of what I considered a village. Even as it grew into a town there was always a feeling of the simple laid-back adventure. Now as a "city" I'm seeing the glitzy, "I've got money" seeping in and it is NOT a pretty sight. Yes, progress can be good. Sewer, trash pickup, new water lines and clean water, paved streets and boulevards, more police, firemen and medical severcies. Also taxis, buses, simi trucks (as in Big rigs), traffic lights and slums. If this doesn't give you the willies then LBC are you kind of people and Loreto Bay your dream. But why is it that those with a "city" mentality ALWAYS pour into paradise and make a city. Can't they go and play in their own back yards? OOPS, they don't have yards. Just like Loreto Bay. I've got to stop here, grab a coffee and go sit down out front and enjoy the PIECE and quiet with my dog. But "I'll be BACK"!

[Edited on 7-22-2007 by Russ]

oldhippie - 7-22-2007 at 07:48 AM

These reports have been prepared this year and would make for interesting reading. They are available in La Paz and were written by scientists at:

Centro de Investigaciones Biológicas del Noroeste, S.C. (CIBNOR), initially named Centro de Investigaciones Biológicas de La Paz, A. C., was established in 1975 by CONACyT (National Council for Science and Technology), UNAM (National University of Mexico), and by the State Government of Baja California Sur. The founder and first director of the Center was Dr. Félix Córdoba Alva. Its main objective was to foster scientific and technological development in the area, which had been recently raised from Territory to State. Just as CIBNOR, other research centers in the country were opened because of science decentralization politics promoted by the Mexican government.

Loreto Bay 2007 studies:

Validation of Master Topographic Level Reference in the Topographic and Hydrological Uplifting of the Federal Coastal Zone for the Residential Tourist Project "Loreto Bay"

Hydrodynamic Modeling of Rectangular Canals for the Loreto Bay Residential-Tourist Project

Hydrodynamic Modeling for the Estuary System Nopolo-Marina Agua Viva for the Residential Tourist Project "Loreto Bay"

Characterization of the Front Coastline of Loreto Bay and Boca del Estero Nopolo for the Residential Tourist Project "Loreto Bay"

MIA (Environmental Impact Assessment) Particular for the Desalting Plant for the Residential Tourist Project "Loreto Bay"

MIA (Environmental Impact Assessment) Regional Stage 4 for the Residential Tourist Project "Loreto Bay"

Technical Feasibility Study to Authorize Land-Use Change for the Residential Tourist Project "Loreto Bay"

Centro de Investigaciones Biológicas del Noroeste, S.C.
Km. 1 Carretera a San Juan de La Costa "EL COMITAN"
Apdo. Postal 128
La Paz, BCS 23097, México

http://www.cibnor.mx/cibnor/imision.php

[Edited on 7-22-2007 by oldhippie]

Baja_Girl - 7-22-2007 at 08:37 AM

Jerry,
Its not about me and wanting to live in infamy.
It is a serious matter to ask people to spend $400K and more to live in a "sustainable" community - and then have no real scientific or economical means to make that happen.
It is a serious matter to build 6000 homes and not have the means to control trash, waste, etc...all to the destruction of the environment.
Its the pretense that I dislike. Its the harm to the economy of the "real Loreto" - located north of the airport, that I dislike, because Alaska Airlines brings people to be shuttled away from town, not into town.
Jerry, I won't address your personal attacks on me because they are silly and irrelevant. I have the financial wherewithal to vacation anywhere in the world. I go to Loreto because there is no McDonalds, no Starbucks, etc....and I pray and pray that it stays like that.

Crusoe - 7-22-2007 at 08:53 AM

Baja Girl.......Very nicely stated!!!!!!! :biggrin:

++C++

jerry - 7-22-2007 at 08:54 AM

BaJa-girl if you are well traveled you know that time changes everything
weather the people live in loreto bay or the city of loreto they will be making the same garbage and sewage and using the same water is that going to solve the problem??
are you really worried about the people paying $400,000 for a suposidly sustainable city?? or is it like you said a vendeta against loreto bay because its changing loreto ?? the ends dont justify the means

im not meaning to personally attack you or anyone

now that i have said my peace im otta here AMEN JERRY

jerry - 7-22-2007 at 08:56 AM

Crusoe if baga girl was so nicly stated why the ++C++
why not a A++ :?:

capn.sharky - 7-22-2007 at 09:11 AM

Craiggers "the change has been going on for centuries " Yes but not at this pace. More has happened in the past three years than in the prior 35 to 40 years. The last big change in Loreto was when Salinas was President. He put in the wells in San Juan, the malacon and some pavement. No, Loreto has been impacted a lot by Loreto Bay and will continue to change for the worse as more and more huge projects move into the area. The only thing I know for sure is that probably will not be for the good of the Mexicans that live there. It is true that LB is working on housing for its workers (probably under duress due to bad publicity). We also will have new projects taking up our beaches at Playa Ensenada Blanca, Punta Bajo, Playa San Bruno and Playa Salanitas. If custom holds true, it will be difficult for the Mexicans to use their own beaches. This just isn't right. I have heard a Mexican Billionaire even wants to buy Isla Coronado. Remember when the Japanese were buying up America? We were all indignant about that---and why should'nt we be? Loreto Bay will have its own stores and shops...so why would the people there come into town and spend money? Oh well, a good cleansing hurricane or earthquake should take care of LB---we just have to wait a while.

oxxo - 7-22-2007 at 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja_GirlI go to Loreto because there is no McDonalds, no Starbucks, etc....and I pray and pray that it stays like that.

It won't. Change is happening all over Mexico. You cannot turn back the clock. You see McDonalds, Costco, Office Depot, Home Depot, WalMart, etc. popping up all over because that is what Mexicans want...for better or worse from the gavacho viewpoint.

Just by sheer coincidence I happen to know the President of Mc Donalds (he is a naturalized Cuban). At one point in his climb up the corporate ladder he was head of operations for McDonalds in Mexico. He tells me that you MUST be a Mexican national to own a McDonalds franchise in Mexico. So all those McDonalds that you see in Mexico are Mexicans trying to get a piece of the American dream. So Mexico for Mexicans.

For the record, I do not care for Big Macs. I much prefer In-n-Out Burgers. And in Loreto, I like Lourdes at McLuLu's. And Loreto Bay is not the living environment I am looking for so I won't be purchasing there.....but I know many people who have and apparently like it so far.

Change is Inevitable

MrBillM - 7-22-2007 at 09:28 AM

And (NOW) Change is coming at an exponential pace EVERYWHERE. Expecting the developers OR the Government to act responsibly is futile. Not only in Mexico, but anywhere.

Where my home is in the High Desert of California, we are faced with a water shortage and there are restrictions on the use of water for landscape and other uses. At the same time, we are experiencing an unprecedented boom in new commercial and residential building. The county and city continue to issue new building permits without ANY consideration of the water or other resources available. In the corrupt atmosphere of Mexican Bureaucracy, would you expect any different ?

Remember, The final step in dealing with Grief is Acceptance.

oldhippie - 7-22-2007 at 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
These reports have been prepared this year and would make for interesting reading. They are available in La Paz and were written by scientists...

Cool. How did you manage to locate those things? You know how to obtain a copy?

Thanks-- Larry

I did a Google search on "loreto bay pollution" The website I mentioned came up in the list and since the address looked like it was impartial, I took a look. Larry, if you know SQL, Google searches work really well if you write the query in the same order "SELECT 'loreto bay' FROM INTERNET WHERE 'pollution' equals the query "loreto bay pollution"

I couldn't find any softcopy.

elizabeth - 7-22-2007 at 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
Why they feel they must expound in this way is very odd. For the full 2006 Annual Report: http://www.loretobayfoundation.org/index.php?tg=fileman&...

I'm copying and pasting this entire URL but get an access denied message?

If you just copy www.loretobayfoundation.org and then click on the links to either the 2005 or 2006 annual report you'll get it.

oldhippie - 7-23-2007 at 08:51 AM

More reading. Note the scientific and academic institutions who are watching what's going on in Loreto and hopefully will have the teeth to downsize the development plans to something approaching reasonableness.

http://americas.irc-online.org/am/4080

http://www.icfdn.org/publications/ar2006/002_2006hi.html#lor...

http://www.icfdn.org/publications/ar2006/002_2006hi.html#na

http://www.futurosalternativosloreto.org/index.htm

http://www.icf-xchange.org/spring2007/007_loretowater

Possible contacts - ICF Board of Governors

http://www.icfdn.org/publications/ar2006/007_board.html

The expensive and complicated process of desalination, both magnified by the fragile ecosystem that is Loreto Bay, is explained below by a qualified engineering firm.

http://www.futurosalternativosloreto.org/desalination/FinalD...

-------------------------------------------------------

To the bajanomad members who are have the "Borgish" "Resistance is futile, you too shall be assimilated" attitude I have a question. Do you remember the big Japanese plans to build a salt production facility near the San Ignacio lagoon? Didn't happen did it. With your attitudes, it would have.

QUE ?

MrBillM - 7-23-2007 at 09:30 AM

What the Heck is this Supposed to mean ?

"To the bajanomad members who are have the "Borgish" "Resistance is futile, ........."

QUE ?

MrBillM - 7-23-2007 at 09:31 AM

What the Heck is this Supposed to mean ?

"To the bajanomad members who are have the "Borgish" "Resistance is futile, ........."

Are Borgs an ethnic group ?

jerry - 7-23-2007 at 09:44 AM

to a oldhippie it means somones been bogarting :lol:

jerry - 7-23-2007 at 09:45 AM

oops i couldnt help my self the devil made me do it :biggrin:

oldhippie - 7-23-2007 at 09:56 AM

I see you guys never watched Star Trek. It was a somewhat entertaining science fiction television show that was on for years. The Borgs were cyborgs who assimilated all life they encountered. No Jerry, it had nothing to do with Humphey Bogart.

I was making the point that the attitude that development is inevitable so resistance to it is pointless is not true. You did read the sentences after the "Borg" sentence, didn't you? Perhaps not.

Did you guys read anything in the links I posted? I'd be glad to discuss the info with you.

wilderone - 7-23-2007 at 09:58 AM

LB Foundation granted $120,000 in 2006 for the new medical facility. Instituto de Servicios de Salud del Estado de BCS needs to account for how that money was spent. AND the Medical Facility contributions totaled $111,554. Why wouldn't there be more progress? Who's got the money?

"When Loreto Bay does do somthing for the locals there dammed for that too."
First, it's "they're" and "damned"
Jerry, if you could find that brain cell of yours and do some independent research and analysis - I know that's a stretch - and sorry, don't mean to bully you - but hey, it's just so easy - you would begin to understand the WASTE and CONVERSION and SELF SERVING grants made by the Loreto Bay Foundation.
For instance, WHO comprises the Sustainable Community Advisors? Which got $24,000 to develop a "feasibility assessment" (an opinion) to address vegetative waste. Now you tell me: what was the tangible result of this expenditure? I'll bet it was something along the lines of, "yup, you can bury it there and nobody will notice."
WHO from The International Ecotourism Society got the $4,271 "for preliminary interviews with Loreto community members to identify needs for ecotourism courses and training"? And what was the tangible result.
Most of the grants will benefit the Villages of LB development in the long term, rather than benefit Loretanos in the short term. And the LB Foundation is established in perpetuity, so there is no reason why short term needs cannot be addressed.
The largest grant (and this was a first installment of two) was $124,215 paid to an American engineering firm for a development plan that they will GIFT to the BCS "state government." Jerry, do you really think this development plan is going to be followed? The working relationship of developers and government will hardly be constrained by a sustainable development guideline most likely printed in English. That is laughable.
And despite LB Foundation's grantmaking parameters, someone from Arizona State University got $40,000 - yes $40,000 - for research in Loreto regarding "recreational values" and "benefit transfers of fishery resources." Oh yeah - someone from f____ing Arizona is the best person to do this type of research. That there isn't already plenty of research in this regard? And what is the result of this research? A report? I'd like to read it. It should be made available to all Loretanos and put in the public library so that the health, education and welfare of the citizens can be improved. Or maybe they can use it to prop open the door to allow a breeze to come through.
During 2005 and 2006, over $88,000 was spent on reports, research and comment letters, not to mention the administrative costs associated with the grant process. How much medical equipment could have been purchased for $100,000? So much for so little.
And let's not overlook the fact that, again, in direct opposition to the concept that "the Loreto Bay foundation is set up to be independent of the development company [LB Co.], on the Board of Directors sits David Butterfield, a "representative" of the LB Co. A "representative"? Do you think that term was chosen over "Chairman" to minimize the obvious CONFLICT OF INTEREST?
Self-serving, waste, conversion.

oldhippie - 7-23-2007 at 10:28 AM

The International Ecotourism Society's website registrant is Meagan Woods from Burlington Vt. The administration of the website is based in Washington, DC and, judging from their name, is interested in promoting tourism.

Eco-tourism, in my opinion is a marketing ploy to soften the derogatory connotation of tourism as it is associated with the environment. Anytime you travel someplace to see the countryside, I suppose you are an eco-tourist. As opposed to travelling to Las Vegas, then you are a gaming-tourist, or Pataya beach, then you're a sex-tourist.

Domain ID

1553788-LROR
Domain Name:ECOTOURISM.ORG
Created On:16-Aug-1996 04:00:00 UTC
Last Updated On:09-Jul-2007 15:19:49 UTC
Expiration Date:10-Aug-2010 04:08:27 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:Tucows Inc. (R11-LROR)
Status

K
Registrant ID:tu13u4IUrKR7jS6w
Registrant Name:megan wood
Registrant Organization:the international ecotourism society
Registrant Street1:po box 668
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:burlington
Registrant State/Province:vt
Registrant Postal Code:05402
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.8026519818
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:billing@Logical.net
Admin ID:turDNA9iYULTiZMa
Admin Name

avid Sollitt
Admin Organization:The International Ecotourism Society
Admin Street1:1333 H Street NW Suite 300 E
Admin Street2:
Admin Street3:
Admin City:washington
Admin State/Province:dc
Admin Postal Code:20005
Admin Country:US
Admin Phone:+1.2023479203
Admin Phone Ext.:419
Admin FAX:
Admin FAX Ext.:
Admin Email:dsollitt@ecotourism.org
Tech ID:tufHrXGZoQJGXLKE
Tech Name:Mike McCarney
Tech Organization:VEAT.Net
Tech Street1:24 White Place
Tech Street2:
Tech Street3:
Tech City:Burlington
Tech State/Province:vt
Tech Postal Code:05401
Tech Country:US
Tech Phone:+1.8028634690
Tech Phone Ext.:
Tech FAX:+1.8028631212
Tech FAX Ext.:
Tech Email:hostmaster@logical.net
Name Server:NS1.LOGICAL.NET
Name Server:NS2.LOGICAL.NET

PS This website inserted the "Smilies" when I copied and pasted the domain name registration info. I didn't put them there.

[Edited on 7-23-2007 by oldhippie]

[Edited on 7-23-2007 by oldhippie]

oldhippie - 7-23-2007 at 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
And let's not overlook the fact that, again, in direct opposition to the concept that "the Loreto Bay foundation is set up to be independent of the development company [LB Co.], on the Board of Directors sits David Butterfield, a "representative" of the LB Co. A "representative"? Do you think that term was chosen over "Chairman" to minimize the obvious CONFLICT OF INTEREST?
Self-serving, waste, conversion.

Exactly! That is THE fishy part of this "benevolence". When push comes to shove, and the bean counters tell David that his cash flow is not good, who will he side with? The citizens of Loreto or his customers? First and foremost, he's a businessman.

jerry - 7-23-2007 at 11:01 AM

wilderone lets see loreto bay isnt contribuiting enoff.
we cant trust loreto bay
we cant trust the mexican government.
we cant trust the city of loreto
we cant trust anyone who gets paid for a study
we cant trust any study groups unless they agree with you
we sure as hell shouldnt trust the $1000.000 donations to the local health education and wellfare
perhaps star-treckes are the way to go?? :lol:

help the paranoids are after us?? lol

jerry - 7-23-2007 at 11:08 AM

perhaps loreto bay should never donate anything to any cause and save its money for litigation that will definatly help loreto

wilderone - 7-23-2007 at 11:29 AM

Jerry, you have a reading comprehension problem.

BORG MATH

bancoduo - 7-23-2007 at 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
wilderone lets see loreto bay isnt contribuiting enoff.
we cant trust loreto bay
we cant trust the mexican government.
we cant trust the city of loreto
we cant trust anyone who gets paid for a study
we cant trust any study groups unless they agree with you
we sure as hell shouldnt trust the $1000.000 donations to the local health education and wellfare
perhaps star-treckes are the way to go?? :lol:

help the paranoids are after us?? lol

$1000.000

oldhippie - 7-23-2007 at 03:15 PM

Good point about Environmental Impact Assessments. Are they paid for by the developers in the US too?

And yes, my use of the word "impartial" is relative to other sources of information, which are largely LB marketing materials.

I'm interested in the following document written by CIBNOR, is that who you work for?

MIA (Environmental Impact Assessment) Particular for the Desalting Plant for the Residential Tourist Project "Loreto Bay".

elizabeth - 7-23-2007 at 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
Good point about Environmental Impact Assessments. Are they paid for by the developers in the US too?

Don't know about anywhere else, but in CA, the agency that determines a need for an initial study and/or full environmental impact chooses who does the report and the developer pays.

oldhippie - 7-23-2007 at 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by elizabeth

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
Good point about Environmental Impact Assessments. Are they paid for by the developers in the US too?

Don't know about anywhere else, but in CA, the agency that determines a need for an initial study and/or full environmental impact chooses who does the report and the developer pays.

Well that keeps the fox out of the hen house, sort of.

oldhippie - 7-23-2007 at 05:09 PM

Thanks Larry.

jerry - 7-23-2007 at 08:20 PM

wilderone tell me who you trust as far as loreto bay goes?? :?:

tell me something positive mr doom and gloom :biggrin:

wilderone - 7-24-2007 at 08:19 AM

I'm positive Loreto Bay is bad for the environment and that they spin a fantasy to sell prospective buyers and have only hope for success -- not viable plans nor sensible socioeconomic analyses.

jerry - 7-24-2007 at 08:29 AM

now that was a nice spin wilderone

oldhippie - 7-24-2007 at 09:23 AM

Jerry, there's no one you can trust. I was thinking that scientific studies done by experts with no vested interest might be a good source of information but as lencho implied, the studies might be paid for by the developers themselves.

There's one important thing that is known and everybody agrees with. There is not enough water to support the planned development and Loreto Bay has acquired the rights to what water there is in the aquifers. And, NOBODY knows the recharge rate of the aquifers. If the development goes as planned, there is a large probability that the aquifers will be drained and then all water will be trucked in or produced by desalination. Both of these options will lead to expensive water and place a large burden on all, especially the natives.

Another known fact is that addition of 10s, probably 100s of thousands of people will pollute the area. Afterall, everybody takes a crap every day and fills up a garbage can at least once a week.

Most of the time these are necessary problems that need solving. But Loreto Bay and the other tourist developments of huge proporations are not necessary. I have no problems with small developments.

King Butterfield needs to be roped in and dethroned. In addition to all the land they have purchased, they own the water rights and also are going to be the owners of the wind generation electric utility that is being built on the other side of the peninsula. Is there anything to stop them from building an oil burner when they realize that solar energy (winds are produced by the sun's alternating warming and cooling of the atmosphere) is a supplement, not a replacement for fossil fuel. So they own the land, they own the water, and they own the electricity. In addition, as stated in their last press release, they're sticking their nose into the town's education and medical institutions. Do you think they're donating money with no strings attached?

Therefore, take your monthly income and have it directly deposited into the treasury of the Kingdom of Butterfield and be ready for ordinances that control your behavior. I think I read it's illegal to own a car in Loreto Bay. What's next?

capt. mike - 7-24-2007 at 10:29 AM

some mex workers in los cabos and cabo were interviewed on TV the other day - they are now making more money at the developments, construction mainly, than they were in US as illegals. good for them.
and several said they would rather be living and working in mexico than in US.
so - could this be a good thing? the mex gov't finally creating economic opportunity for their people instead of turning a blind eye to the problem of their people flocking to US in search of a brighter future?

oldhippie - 7-24-2007 at 11:40 AM

Capt. Mike that's an excellent point and well taken. It's good news that the construction jobs in Cabo are producing satisfied workers. Thanks for an opposing view that makes sense. There haven't been many. Although using Cabo to make your point weakens it a bit. Cabo is the epitome of out-of-control excess.

I guess my response goes back to the intractable problem of the insufficient water supply in Loreto and the pollution that will result from these very large scale developments. So, eventhough jobs are real important, there are other real important considerations.

I think smaller, dispersed vacation hotels and homes are a very reasonable thing and would have a positive impact for all involved. Small amounts of pollutants and resource utilization can be effectively managed.

The tourist industry is lucerative and can be done in an almost benign environmental fashion. I haven't been there in 10 years or so, but the British Virgin Islands are/were a fine example. I believe the same to be true for Tahiti and the other most desirable vacation places.

But, Loreto Bay is nothing more than a housing tract of 6000 "homes" that are mediocre at best when compared to the REAL nice places to go. And they are homes that the current residents, nor Mexicans from any other state for that matter, can afford. So you get a housing tract that the people that need improved housing can't live in.

It's my opinion that the proposed development of the Loreto area needs to be scaled back significantly or the place will be ruined and nobody will be happy. Loreto Bay would even benefit. The developers would have goals that have a better chance of being achieved and the residents would find the place more enjoyable.

[Edited on 7-24-2007 by oldhippie]

[Edited on 7-24-2007 by oldhippie]

[Edited on 7-24-2007 by oldhippie]

oxxo - 7-24-2007 at 11:53 AM

Why didn't Loreto Bay put in a de-sal plant to handle their water needs? It is my understanding that all the new developments in Los Cabos are required to provide de-sal water for their needs.

Hang on a second

Sharksbaja - 7-24-2007 at 12:15 PM

Smaller is better in many respects but if every Tom, Dick and Butterworth stuck a resort and golf course on EVERY undisturbed estuary the end would be near, the sky would fall for many creatures. I thought breeding grounds were protected somehow. DUH! I guess they don't mean squat.

oldhippie - 7-24-2007 at 12:20 PM

I'm not sure, but I don't think they have the permits to build a desal plant. I could be wrong but I think the last I read about it was that there was a study being done and perhaps a contractor has been selected.

I wonder how many palms have to be greased to get these kinds of permits?

Mexican official: King Butterfield, we understand you are a VERY rich man and your development is very important to your success.

King Butterfield: Being the wise man he is, says nothing.

Mexican official: Well, that being the case, the mayor and the police chief would like some donations for use as they see fit before we can discuss your permits. Surely you understand.

oldhippie - 7-24-2007 at 12:30 PM

Sharks, I undersand your aquatic concerns. There are government/university environmental groups in baja and if there is any group of environmental concerns that pull weight with governments and environmental scientists it is the group of concerns about animal breeding and migratory grounds, such as estuaries. These issues attract the attention of international preservation groups that have many resources.

Let your concerns be known.

wilderone - 7-25-2007 at 09:06 AM

Example:
LB fantasy: “…by build-out it is estimated that these estuaries will produce 25 tonnes of commercial fish per year.”

CONAPESCA – Mexican Fishing Regulations:
In ocean waters and estuaries the limit is a total of ten fish per day, with no more than 5 catches of a single specie, except of the species of Marlin, Sailfish and Swordfish and Shark, of which only one specimen of either is allowed, and which counts as five toward the overall 10 fish limit, or Dorado, Roosterfish, Shad, or Tarpon, of which only two samples of each specie are allowed, and which count as five toward the overall 10 fish limit.

It is illegal to sell, trade, or exchange the fish caught.

Roberto - 7-25-2007 at 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
Example:
LB fantasy: “…by build-out it is estimated that these estuaries will produce 25 tonnes of commercial fish per year.”

CONAPESCA – Mexican Fishing Regulations:
In ocean waters and estuaries the limit is a total of ten fish per day, with no more than 5 catches of a single specie, except of the species of Marlin, Sailfish and Swordfish and Shark, of which only one specimen of either is allowed, and which counts as five toward the overall 10 fish limit, or Dorado, Roosterfish, Shad, or Tarpon, of which only two samples of each specie are allowed, and which count as five toward the overall 10 fish limit.

It is illegal to sell, trade, or exchange the fish caught.

Those are SPORTFISHING regs - they don't apply to commercial fishing.

Russ - 7-25-2007 at 02:08 PM

oldhippie , I'd say your qualified to spout. And I'm not. But.... I don't want the waste in my back yard any more than Loreto Bay.
Oh, I quote from oldhippie, " Jerry, there's no one you can trust. I was thinking that scientific studies done by experts with no vested interest might be a good source of information but as lencho implied, the studies might be paid for by the developers themselves."

[Edited on 7-25-2007 by Russ]

oldhippie - 7-25-2007 at 02:27 PM

Russ, touche. But there is no doubt the reactors shut down.

We can wait for this:

On Tuesday, the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, which oversees energy policy, said it would create an independent panel of academic experts to investigate the damage at the Kashiwazaki plant in Niigata Prefecture. The panel’s findings will be presented to the International Atomic Energy Agency, a United Nations group that will send its own inspectors to the plant, the ministry said.

If you want a nuclear debate, start an off topic thread.

wilderone - 7-25-2007 at 02:32 PM

Under current regulations no commercial fishing vessels are allowed to fish for or possess protected species within the 50 mile conservation zones. The only allowed fishing was under sportfishing bag limits. Commercial boats less than 30' can come within 10 miles of shore with longlines (section 4.2.1). Commercial longline boats between 30' and 89' can fish as near as 15 miles from the shore in the Sea of Cortes, and within 20 miles of the west coast of the Baja (4.7.3).

Estuarine waters and wetlands provide critical nursery areas for many species of fish and shellfish. It has been estimated that approximately 98% of the commercial fishery landings in the Gulf of Mexico are estuarine-dependent, i.e. dependent on estuaries for reproduction, nursery areas, food production, migrations or shelter and for protection and food when they are juveniles.

So - Commercial fishing in a shoreline estuary?? Gill-netting, disturbing the fish hatchery, driving power boats through the estuary? Don’t think so. Under what possible scenario would reaping 25 tons of fish per year from an estuary - itself protected by several Mexican entities - be possible or environmentally responsible? What facts would contribute to the truth of LB's statements?

oldhippie - 7-25-2007 at 03:04 PM

wilderone, could they be talking about the commercial fishermen taking the fish after they leave the conservation zones?

They have plans for 62 acres of estuaries.

http://www.loretobay.com/files/pdf/inaugural-sustainability-... page 14

I know little about this topic but I do know what an estuary is. It's where a fresh water river meets salt water.

Tell me, how swift is Rio Loreto running these days? Is there a river? Seems to be a necessary component of an estuary.

wilderone - 7-25-2007 at 04:53 PM

oldhippie - maybe that is what they mean - maybe I misinterpreted. However, the statement still has no basis in fact. There is absolutely no time period of when "build out" will occur, if ever. And, there are too many factors affecting the estuary and its success: the runoff from agriculture and landscaping, silting from construction, pesticides and insectides they will use (all of the golf courses would also be completed at "build out" I assume - irrigated with affluent and brine from the desal plant), and the viability of the estuary as a whole given that it is manmade, requires flushing, etc.

Don Alley - 7-25-2007 at 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
Under current regulations no commercial fishing vessels are allowed to fish for or possess protected species within the 50 mile conservation zones. The only allowed fishing was under sportfishing bag limits. Commercial boats less than 30' can come within 10 miles of shore with longlines (section 4.2.1). Commercial longline boats between 30' and 89' can fish as near as 15 miles from the shore in the Sea of Cortes, and within 20 miles of the west coast of the Baja (4.7.3).

Estuarine waters and wetlands provide critical nursery areas for many species of fish and shellfish. It has been estimated that approximately 98% of the commercial fishery landings in the Gulf of Mexico are estuarine-dependent, i.e. dependent on estuaries for reproduction, nursery areas, food production, migrations or shelter and for protection and food when they are juveniles.

So - Commercial fishing in a shoreline estuary?? Gill-netting, disturbing the fish hatchery, driving power boats through the estuary? Don’t think so. Under what possible scenario would reaping 25 tons of fish per year from an estuary - itself protected by several Mexican entities - be possible or environmentally responsible? What facts would contribute to the truth of LB's statements?

The Shark Norma modifies the 50 mile rule, letting "commercial" vessels in closer. Also, small pangas can fish in close. It's those boats that conduct the commercial fishing in the Bahia de Loreto area. The use of gillnets along the peninsular shoreline inside the park is allowed and is commonplace. If it is possible to produce 25 tons of additional fish, there are commercial fishermen ready, willing and able to harvest them, and compliant regulators to allow them to.

Not long ago at a public meeting in Loreto a Mexican fisheries scientist had this to say about the baseline data on fisheries in the Loreto area: "There isn't any. No data." So unless data collection improves quickly there will be no baseline to measure or verify claims of production of additional fish. And should LB or others manage their habitat in such a way that produces more fish, commercial exploitation of that increase would be a very inefficient use, and certainly not a use that would benefit Loreto Bay's business. I suspect that they have simply used a poor example here to illustrate their hoped for increase in biomass.

Roberto - 7-25-2007 at 05:16 PM

Exactly - a lot of the commercial fishing, especially in "local" areas is conducted by pangas, and these regularly gillnet, trap, and longline both inshore and further out.

Commercial fishing in Mexico is not done only by large long-range boats, especially the kind of fishing being discussed here.

oldlady - 7-25-2007 at 07:40 PM

Dave,
best giggle I've had today....a caballero is in the middle of pullin' wire at my casa, let you know if he figures out what the green ones are for. We had a very interesting discussion about drain vents and atmospheric pressure.

oldhippie - 7-26-2007 at 07:42 AM

Thanks Hose A.

Al G - 7-26-2007 at 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
wilderone tell me who you trust as far as loreto bay goes?? :?:

tell me something positive mr doom and gloom :biggrin:

The best that can be said is, you have been had...yes even bent over had. I do not know your experience with developers, but I can tell you their goal...Seperate you from your money without doing ANYTHING that they promise...nothing
I read their statement of what they would and would not do...
It is a simple matter...
They have the right to use the resource that are there...period
That is what they will do....

If they make a promise to do something...anything... in the world of development...that is the same as saying "I assure you I will never do this"
If you think you own your home...forget it...you have only made a down payment. When the resources are gone, and believe me, the developer will be gone too...you will start paying again.
The story about making water from thin air...read my lipps...a dehumidifier for a single family dewelling. Do you really think they will buy one for each house...do you think they care if it works or not??? I laughed my butt off for a while...they were telling you up front they never intend to do anything about the water issue, but you can buy one of these water makers if it makes you feel better about it.
I want you to understand...You will never be able to do anything about this....NEVER. Go home, stop your whinning. You have been had. Sorry...hope you are not a owner

EDIT: damn old fingers :mad:

[Edited on 7-26-2007 by Al G]

[Edited on 7-26-2007 by Al G]

Al G - 7-26-2007 at 08:49 AM

"I want you to understand...You will never be able to do anything about this....NEVER. Go home, stop your whining. You have been had. Sorry...hope you are not a owner"
I made this statement, because I do not believe there is anyone willing to organize a strike/movement to stop sales...your only hope.

oldhippie - 7-26-2007 at 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
"I want you to understand...You will never be able to do anything about this....NEVER. Go home, stop your whining. You have been had. Sorry...hope you are not a owner"
I made this statement, because I do not believe there is anyone willing to organize a strike/movement to stop sales...your only hope.

"organize a strike/movement" that's from the last century.

The Internet.

Have you taken note of how many people have viewed these Loreto Bay threads (granted, many multiple times).

When the Loreto Bay June 2007 thread was hot bajanomad.com with a link to the thread was coming up on the first google page after a "Loreto Bay" query.

If I wanted to, I could build a website that hundreds of thousands would read. I'm using this website as my notepad and more importantly, gauging reaction.

But, I get paid to do such things and I have time commitments.

Al G - 7-26-2007 at 09:16 AM

Oldhippie...well taken and I know I use old terminology.
if the home owners and locals had an once of intelligence they would hire you to do your thing.

oldhippie - 7-26-2007 at 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
Oldhippie...well taken and I know I use old terminology.
if the home owners and locals had an once of intelligence they would hire you to do your thing.

I'm open to offers. I've never had an employment gap in 30 years. I like to think it's because I do good work, and most importantly, I'm cheap. Businessmen love that combo, and I know in the long run I've made out.

Possible?

Dave - 7-26-2007 at 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
I'm open to offers. I've never had an employment gap in 30 years. I like to think it's because I do good work, and most importantly, I'm cheap. Businessmen love that combo, and I know in the long run I've made out.

How about building a portable nuclear generator, 4-5kw? There's plenty of waste material lying around. Obviously, only responsible people could own one.

I'd have to steal mine. :rolleyes:

jerry - 7-27-2007 at 07:14 PM

wow this thread got dropped like a hot rock once old hippie mentioned gettings paid

cpg - 7-28-2007 at 09:42 AM

So you guys are saying it is a not a good deal to buy at loreto bay?

Al G - 7-28-2007 at 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cpg
So you guys are saying it is a not a good deal to buy at loreto bay?

Sorry

oldhippie - 7-28-2007 at 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cpg
So you guys are saying it is a not a good deal to buy at loreto bay?

Depends upon what you want. As an investment, I think it's risky. The wealth effect caused by the hyper-inflation of housing in the US seems to be waning. And no Mexican will ever buy into the development. Why buy a house that the people that live in the country don't want and can't afford? Much wiser to buy a nice house that a Mexican professional worker would be proud of. A house ain't worth nothing if you can't sell it.

Buying it to live in because Loreto is a nice place is more reasonable, but they're expensive places with (I bet but don't know) CC&Rs thicker than War and Peace.

Plus there's the annoying little problem of the absence of water.

For the money, you can put together a list of 10 better places in a few minutes on Google.

Visit Cabo, see Loreto in 10 years.

wilderone - 7-30-2007 at 09:37 AM

"So you guys are saying it is a not a good deal to buy at loreto bay?"
Cost of unit excessive (just a condo), plus cost of HOA, taxes, utilities, beach club, auto club, shuttles, air fare for annual visits; no garage, gotta walk everywhere, high density and way too close together-no privacy; if full time, what will you do all day-better like to play golf and fish and hot summers and work in the orchard; the Loreto Bay Co. consistently exaggerates, does not tell the entire truth about anything; makes false promiss; makes outrageous statements with no qualifying data in support. In sum, why would you choose that when there are so many other places offering sun and beach and drinking water without the destruction of the sensitive coastal environment? Thousands of homes in Mexico for sale or rent. And why would you want to live in Mexico in an Anglicized community with so many strictures? I recently read that with your HOA dues, you get pastries delivered free each morning, through a small exterior window passage. Now maybe that's happening right now in Flounders Village. But is this deal really part of the HOA governing documents? Or another "vision"? At "build out" - some 5,000+ residences are going to have fresh pastries delivered -- 10,000 fresh pastries all delivered at once in the morning over five miles?? Is this part of their vision for the economic development of the region? A large bakery with delivery service? Maybe with HOA dues, you can have someone come and wipe your ____ too.

capt. mike - 7-30-2007 at 09:45 AM

boy....i sure am glad there are SO many qualified references here to advise me where to spend my money.....if it weren't for such resources i'll bet i never would have made the $$ i have today!

i have to jump in here to read this drivel every once in a while, it cracks me up. :tumble:

backninedan - 7-30-2007 at 09:54 AM

Invest in Loreto Bay, Mike. Then you can give us all the straight poop. Be nice to have such an unbiased reporter in the midst of a lovely gringo community.

oldhippie - 7-30-2007 at 11:03 AM

Hey Captain Mike, cpg asked for opinions! People responded. What's wrong with that?

"SO many qualified references here to advise me"

Nobody was offering you advice. However if you want my advice, I suggest you buy 10 houses at Loreto Bay.

If you have a different opinion, express it.

Just what was said that you consider drivel?

Cypress - 7-30-2007 at 11:15 AM

Nothing wrong with Loreto Bay, if you want to live in a housing project. :bounce:

wilderone - 7-30-2007 at 11:22 AM

"i sure am glad there are SO many qualified references here to advise me where to spend my money"
So clearly portrays how a fool and his money are soon parted. There are more qualified references here than you'll ever find within Loreto Bay drivel. Not to mention the due diligence you could do yourself.

oldhippie - 7-30-2007 at 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Nothing wrong with Loreto Bay, if you want to live in a housing project. :bounce:

That's unfair, housing projects usually end up being slums. A better description is "tract homes".

Without cars
Without water
Without stores of any consequence
Without hospitals
Without a police force (that may be a good thing)
Without adequate banking services
Without newspaper, magazine, or book stores
Without theaters

ha! just not my cup of tea Dan

capt. mike - 7-30-2007 at 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by backninedan
Invest in Loreto Bay, Mike. Then you can give us all the straight poop. Be nice to have such an unbiased reporter in the midst of a lovely gringo community.

but i don't begrudge others who like it or want it. like i have said, i have a good acquaintance who bought there and they love it. to each their own - but it lives or dies as a part of free enterprize. i won't lose tears or sleep over its success or lack of it ultimately. it was a featured story on a recent issue of Who Gives a Crap magazine.

i don't think it would have gotten as far as it has if the Mexican gov't didn't want or support it. i think most shams are identified as such way before they reach the level LB has.

5000 homes?? some here think that's going to occur quickly. i don't think so. the actual absorption is affected by many variables - sure ecology is one. either they will solve the density issues or not and it reaches its maximum draw on resources.

the protestations of non citizens here against it i find mainly amusing and for the most part impotent in efficacy.

what i don't see here is a lot of documented discourse with Grogan's group. Just a lot of facts tossing and eco ranting.

why not challenge the trust openly even on other forums and provide their defense here?
i recall when Grogan was on the baja radio show. he acquitted himself fairly well. Was that PT Barnumism.....or do they actually have their act together? i'd go with the latter until someone drops a bomb with real meat.

oldhippie - 7-30-2007 at 11:49 AM

No water isn't "real meat"?

"the protestations of non citizens here against it i find mainly amusing and for the most part impotent in efficacy."

"impotent in efficacy" pretty fancy English, I like it.

When the Loreto Bay June 2007 Version thread was hot, links to it were coming up on the first page of Google search results for "Loreto Bay". I bet a fair amount of potential buyers followed those links. Maybe some were dissuaded from buying. Therefore what is said here could be potent in efficacy.

And since when do you need to be a citizen to have an opinion. Hell, the United States recently invaded a sovereign country because of the opinions in Washington DC.

[Edited on 7-30-2007 by oldhippie]

[Edited on 7-30-2007 by oldhippie]

Cypress - 7-30-2007 at 11:54 AM

oldhippie! You said it. :bounce:

When you crowd too many people in a small area bad things happen.

oldhippie - 7-30-2007 at 12:19 PM

and another thing:

"i don't think it would have gotten as far as it has if the Mexican gov't didn't want or support it."

Have you seen the disaster that is now Rosarito Beach? Of course the Mexican government wants it and supports it. Because "it" happens to be American dollars. The current baja tourist developments prove it doesn't go much beyond that.

[Edited on 7-30-2007 by oldhippie]

wilderone - 7-30-2007 at 12:21 PM

Your good acquaintenance bought and loves it? Were they from Phoenix? I guess Loreto Bay would be better than hell.

"for the most part impotent in efficacy."
How would YOU possibly know whether the 30,000+ messages regarding Loreto Bay on this forum have had any effect on future sales?

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