BajaNomad - A Way Out of the Immigration Mess

A Way Out of the Immigration Mess

toneart - 7-26-2007 at 10:53 AM

This is a different and interesting perspective on U.S. Immigration:

A Way Out of the Immigration Mess
> Mike Krauss - Wall Street Journeal
>
>
>
>
> From 1999 through 2005 I was a senior executive of a North
American
> railroad based in Mexico City, responsible chiefly for intermodal
> traffic between locations in Mexico, the United States and Canada.
> For some years prior to that, and until only recently, I lived in
a
> still predominantly rural area outside Mexico City, traveled
widely
> in the country and worked often on the border. I have had both
> professional and personal contact with illegal immigration into
the
> U.S.
>
> Railroads that come out of Mexico must deal routinely with
> the "sleepers," as those who try to hitch a ride on the northbound
> trains are called. And in the small town outside of Mexico City
> where I lived, I knew any number of people who had tried and
failed
> or tried and succeeded to make the more common journey on foot
> across the border which, I observed first-hand, is porous.
>
> In order to resolve the crisis of illegal immigration into the
U.S.,
> it is important to understand who these people are and what they
> want. Overwhelmingly, they are young and healthy. It is not a
> journey for the old or frail. They are not all poor or uneducated.
> Many educated young Mexicans have no work. For every entry-level
and
> mid-level managerial position my company advertised there were
> hundreds of qualified applicants. What drives them to make an
always
> arduous, often perilous and sometimes fatal journey is the search
> for opportunity and more specifically, work.
>
> The other thing that must be understood is that there is presently
> no effective process in place to lawfully manage the numbers of
> Mexicans and, to a lesser extent, other Hispanics seeking to live
or
> work in the U.S. Through inaction and inattention Congress has
> manufactured a crisis.
>
> The legal process is to stand for hours, often more than once, in
a
> line outside the U.S. embassy in Mexico City. It's the kind of
line
> I recall from my youth outside the local movie theater when a new
> Walt Disney movie opened. It seems to go on forever, with people
> waiting in the cold or rain or heat to bring a raft of papers and
> documents before an INS officer and take their best shot. By all
> accounts, it is not a pleasant experience.
>
> No one may accompany the supplicant, so it is all hearsay, but
what
> a careful listener will hear is that the officer does not really
> want you in the U.S. Basically, the applicant is required to prove
> to the officer that he or she has sufficient motives to return to
> Mexico. The result is that employed professionals or the well-to-
do
> get visas for business trips, family vacations or shopping
> excursions. The rest - the vast majority - don't bother to try.
>
> The story of one young neighbor of mine in Mexico is instructive
and
> not atypical. Jorge, let's call him, was an intelligent and
outgoing
> seventeen year old. We hired him to do some odd jobs at the house
> and over time became close to his family - other members had also
> worked for us. He got a degree in mathematics from the local
> university and hoped to teach. But there were no positions.
>
> Teachers do not retire in Mexico: They can't afford to give up the
> job. All that was available was part-time work grading papers and
> otherwise taking the load off senior teachers. It was low paying
> even by Mexican standards. The U.S., however, has a real need for
> mathematics teachers, especially those who speak Spanish and
> English, as he does.
>
> Jorge went through the legal process. He set up a bank account,
> which he, like many youths from the town, had never had before.
His
> father pulled together his income records to demonstrate the
> family's means and went to considerable trouble to put a piece of
> land in his son's name. It was all to no avail.
>
> His application was denied because, said the INS officer, his
> English was so very good that he had obviously been illegally to
the
> States to learn it. He tried to explain that he had acquired his
> excellent, American English in an intensive language course: four
> hours a night, almost every Friday night of the year for five
years,
> playing cards with American businessmen.
>
> Yeah, right. Denied. Jorge took the other route to the United
States.
>
> Jorge had one other thing in common with most Mexican immigrants,
> apart from the "get-up-and- go" that Americans used to admire.
Legal
> or otherwise, they are focused. They are not coming to wander
> aimlessly about. They are headed for a specific town or city where
> some family member or friend from their village is now or has
been,
> and where they will be received by an extended family that
provides
> initial shelter and will show them the ropes. Think of it as a
> combination social service and employment agency, provided tax
free.
>
> The point is, the overwhelming majority of these people come here
> looking for work. And it is clear the U.S. economy has a place for
> them. In several industries it has a critical need: meat packing
and
> food processing, agriculture, hotel and restaurant services or
> bilingual mathematics instruction, for example.
>
> What can be done? In the short term, first the security of the
> border with Mexico must be guaranteed to the satisfaction of
anxious
> citizens, the overwhelming majority of whom believe, correctly,
that
> it is not now sufficiently secured - although it strikes me that a
> garrisoned wall is unnecessary and offensive.
>
> Second, we need to reform the legal process and direct the flow
> through a series of modern-day Ellis Islands, preferably in the
> interior of Mexico, fully staffed and funded to serve as welcome
> centers that will identify the newcomers, find out where they are
> headed, and try to match them up with legal employers in the U.S.
In
> the new process a determination can be made if these are temporary
> workers or people who want to become Americans. They can then be
> monitored and assisted appropriately. When these two steps are
> accomplished, it will then be possible to revisit the legalization
> process for those who are already established in the country.
>
> Of course, as I think it over, perhaps these proposed processing
> centers ought not be called "welcome centers." We wouldn't want to
> give the wrong impression. How about, Immigration Identification,
> Security and Control Centers? That ought to push all the right
> buttons on the talk-radio dial.
>
> But for the long term, only raising the living standards of the
> Mexican people will staunch the flow. The U.S. and Canada
together,
> but chiefly the U.S., need to invest in Mexico on the scale of a
> Marshall Plan, or as West Germany invested in East Germany at the
> reunification, and for the same reason. Huge disparities in the
> living standards of societies living in close proximity inevitably
> invite migration to the more prosperous society. The wider the
gap,
> the greater the flow.
>
> This investment in Mexico will have two other benefits for the
U.S.
> Like the Marshall Plan, it can be structured to create
opportunities
> for American businesses and expand markets for U.S. goods and
> services. And it will give the Mexican government an incentive to
> fix a policy that effectively exports its unemployment to the U.S.
>
> What are the chances? It is difficult to say, but I am not voting
> for anybody for president, U.S. Senate or Congress in the 2008
> elections who does not advance some kind of similar plan.
>
> Mr. Krauss, a writer, was formerly an executive for a railroad
based
> in Mexico City.
>

DENNIS - 7-26-2007 at 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

> but chiefly the U.S., need to invest in Mexico on the scale of a
> Marshall Plan
>

Great idea. Would that be in addition to the twenty billion sent to Mexico from the US annualy as remittances?
We could add that to the twelve billion spent in Iraq each month. Why not? We have nothing but money. We can't pay for veteran care or offer our students a well-rounded education or afford to build a mandated fence or.......well, the list goes on. But, these things don't matter, not when Mexico has to be built up to twenty first century standards.

Why don't they have their cartels build Mexico? Unlike the US with her national debt credit card, the cartels have cash. Oh yeah, most of that came from the US as well.

JESSE - 7-26-2007 at 11:36 AM

You know Dennis, it seems constantly you enjoy making not so friendly comments about Mexico, allways pointing out how bad its here and how its all just a big mess. I am not going to start a discussion with you here, but i just want you to know that at least me, finds it very uncomfortable to put it mildly to read all your negative comments about my country. Yes, some of the things you talk about are true, but not all by a long shot. Seems to me your angry about something, and its not probably Mexico since you choose to live here, so thats your problem. I am not saying talking bad about Mexico should not happen here, everybody has the right to complain about something that's affecting his or her life or livelihood, but man, your just non stop, with illegals, with drugs, with politicians, with remittances, my question to you is? is there anything about Mexico you like?

DENNIS - 7-26-2007 at 11:38 AM

Oh, by the way...........

Slim Helu, the richest man in the freaked out world, could support our efforts in the Middle East for four months before he tapped out. If he ever wants to get into charity, this would be a good place to start or, on the other hand, he could give back to the country that made him fat, and I don't mean buying the place.
Micro-loans are proving to be effective. He could do that if the uncontrolable urge to charge 50% interest didn't enter into it.

DENNIS - 7-26-2007 at 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
my question to you is? is there anything about Mexico you like?

Well yeah...........I posted it today on another thread. I like those bacon wrapped hot dogs.

toneart - 7-26-2007 at 11:46 AM

We are all in this together, Dennis. I don't agree with any writer's opinion 100%.
I just find proposed solutions, right or wrong, and discussions thereof, more interesting and potentially unifying.

JESSE - 7-26-2007 at 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
my question to you is? is there anything about Mexico you like?

Well yeah...........I posted it today on another thread. I like those bacon wrapped hot dogs.

Thats what i suspected.

Cypress - 7-26-2007 at 11:51 AM

The people who are supposed to control the border, both north and south of it, are dancing around the issue while we pay the band. :lol:

We need a new band, or at least some new dancers. :biggrin:

This same-o-same-o is getting old and moldy. :lol:

DENNIS - 7-26-2007 at 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
We are all in this together, Dennis. I don't agree with any writer's opinion 100%.
I just find proposed solutions, right or wrong, and discussions thereof, more interesting and potentially unifying.

That's good. I hope you feel unified by my response, my part of the discussion. I'm already being trashed here for my above opinion being an attack on Mexico. It wasn't, by any means. It was my disgust for the spending policy of the United States. I mean, how long has it been since the US was merely broke? Debts eventually have to be paid. Does that make me mean-spirited?

DENNIS - 7-26-2007 at 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
my question to you is? is there anything about Mexico you like?

Well yeah...........I posted it today on another thread. I like those bacon wrapped hot dogs.

Thats what i suspected.

Does that mean you'll put them on your menu?

JESSE - 7-26-2007 at 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
my question to you is? is there anything about Mexico you like?

Well yeah...........I posted it today on another thread. I like those bacon wrapped hot dogs.

Thats what i suspected.

Does that mean you'll put them on your menu?

Anything to make you happy.

DENNIS - 7-26-2007 at 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
my question to you is? is there anything about Mexico you like?

Well yeah...........I posted it today on another thread. I like those bacon wrapped hot dogs.

Thats what i suspected.

Does that mean you'll put them on your menu?

Anything to make you happy.

Well, Thank you, Jesse.
You maybe didn't notice but, we just had a little discussion. I really enjoyed it.

Mexitron - 7-26-2007 at 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
my question to you is? is there anything about Mexico you like?

Well yeah...........I posted it today on another thread. I like those bacon wrapped hot dogs.

Thats what i suspected.

Does that mean you'll put them on your menu?

Anything to make you happy.

Well, Thank you, Jesse.
You maybe didn't notice but, we just had a little discussion. I really enjoyed it.

How many quote windows can you put here before the screen implodes?!

[Edited on 7-26-2007 by Mexitron]

JESSE - 7-26-2007 at 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
my question to you is? is there anything about Mexico you like?

Well yeah...........I posted it today on another thread. I like those bacon wrapped hot dogs.

Thats what i suspected.

Does that mean you'll put them on your menu?

Anything to make you happy.

Well, Thank you, Jesse.
You maybe didn't notice but, we just had a little discussion. I really enjoyed it.

Just a lovely chat.

DENNIS - 7-26-2007 at 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
my question to you is? is there anything about Mexico you like?

Well yeah...........I posted it today on another thread. I like those bacon wrapped hot dogs.

Thats what i suspected.

Does that mean you'll put them on your menu?

Anything to make you happy.

Well, Thank you, Jesse.
You maybe didn't notice but, we just had a little discussion. I really enjoyed it.

Just a lovely chat.

Yes it was........still is.

Eli - 7-26-2007 at 02:36 PM

Wow guys, cool pattern, kind of reminds me of Pop art.

Toneart, excellent thoughts presented, give me hope and sounds a lot better than what we got going for us now, feeding the coyotes..........

toneart - 7-26-2007 at 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eli
Wow guys, cool pattern, kind of reminds me of Pop art.

Toneart, excellent thoughts presented, give me hope and sounds a lot better than what we got going for us now, feeding the coyotes..........

Thank you, Eli!

The writer published this in The Wall Street Journal, which ironically, tends to lean toward the conservative viewpoint. (It is also in danger of being acquired by Ruppert Murdock). I liked his upbeat usage of language in the piece, such as:
resolve; understand; welcome centers; create opportunities, expand markets, incentive and raise living standards. He also stated, "Through inaction and inattention Congress has manufactured a crisis." Put all these words in the context of the topic and you have an interesting debate, at least that was what I was hoping for when I posted it.

What do you (anyone?) think about the "Welcome center" idea? Interesting that he later gave it a more cynical description in order for it to be more palatable to political enablers. One does need to be pragmatic when appealing to that crowd.

woody with a view - 7-26-2007 at 06:39 PM

WHERE'S THE FENCE??????????????????

toneart - 7-26-2007 at 09:35 PM

I'm feeling like the teacher in Blackboard Jungle. Maybe I'm wasting my time in this environment.

Mexitron - 7-27-2007 at 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
I'm feeling like the teacher in Blackboard Jungle. Maybe I'm wasting my time in this environment.

toneart--Its a divisive issue for many folks but your above post was a reasonable solution to the mess.

Woody--talk with South Texans about a border fence--about how their livestock won't have access to Rio Grande water anymore(from small to very large wealthy ranchers like the Moodys); from environmentalists about how putting up the fence will completely block off a massive wildlife corridor. About how many Texans think its a slap in the face to their friends below the border; you'd think with Texas' overabundance of patriotism that they'd be the first to put up a fence--not so... ...a fence sounds simple...maybe in some places it will work but its not an easy blanket solution .

longlegsinlapaz - 7-27-2007 at 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
You know Dennis, it seems constantly you enjoy making not so friendly comments about Mexico, allways pointing out how bad its here and how its all just a big mess. I am not going to start a discussion with you here, but i just want you to know that at least me, finds it very uncomfortable to put it mildly to read all your negative comments about my country. Yes, some of the things you talk about are true, but not all by a long shot. Seems to me your angry about something, and its not probably Mexico since you choose to live here, so thats your problem. I am not saying talking bad about Mexico should not happen here, everybody has the right to complain about something that's affecting his or her life or livelihood, but man, your just non stop, with illegals, with drugs, with politicians, with remittances, my question to you is? is there anything about Mexico you like?

Jesse, I agree totally with your comments!! dennis is angry & miserable & doesn't care what he says to who...he just wants everyone to be as miserable as he is & he does a good job of stopping a lot of people from posting to many threads because of his critical, rude & thoroughly insensitive words. He IS capable of thoughtful comments, it's sad that he more frequently chooses to hide behind his right to express his opinion just like everyone else here...though most others are capable of doing it without constantly inflicting hurt on others, and angering the majority...he REFUSES to listen, believe or accept that fact that many find his words to be offensive. He simply will not or cannot understand; even when it's brought to his attention; how frequently and blatantly he crosses the line of civility & common human decency. dennis has no respect for anyone or anything other than dennis. We're all WRONG and he's right 110% of the time! If the only thing he likes about this beautiful country & it's awesome people is bacon wrapped hot dogs, maybe he should take that idea back to where ever he came from & set up his own little 'hate'ful bacon-wrapped hot dog stand!!

Jesse, I commend your restraint in the choice of words you chose to use here...just as I suspect that most who know me will be amazed at my restraint! :bounce:

Sorry dennis...simply stating my opinion as I also have a right to do...doubt you'll appreciate my opinion any more than most others appreciate your sentiments & the words you chose to state them in! But it is my right, and like you I stand on my right to freely express MY opinion.

DENNIS - 7-27-2007 at 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz

Sorry dennis...simply stating my opinion as I also have a right to do...doubt you'll appreciate my opinion any more than most others appreciate your sentiments & the words you chose to state them in! But it is my right, and like you I stand on my right to freely express MY opinion.

I very much repect your right to voice your opinion. It's gratifying as well that you choose to unload on me personally rather than my opinion. Maybe that means you agree with me. Oh well.....one can only hope.

Eli - 7-27-2007 at 08:01 AM

toneart, I am glad you are here, and I am glad Woody is here, I thought his comment about where is the fence was in jest, and I related to the poem. There are no boarders for my soul and mind.

Anyway, You got me thinking last night and this morning as to possible things to call the "Welcome Center", nope, I didn't like welcome center; to me when I hear that it reminds me of something’s out of a Sci-Fi movie, you know where they welcome you than put you away, fatten ya up and than eat you or something.

Also, wouldn't it be outstanding if the road went two ways, as in some kind of program that helped People from both sides gain legal employment no matter which side of the boarder they are coming from; "The North American Work Exchange Program"? Maybe, that is why I am slow to respond, nothing really jumps up at me and sez Ya that is what we can call it.

I think it would be more than 99% folks going North, but I really believe that it is so much more democratic if people from both sides of the boarder had the same rights. Of course, those folks foolish enough to want to work South of the boarder are few and far between, but, for the few looking to work and make their life on this side of the boarder, why shouldn't there exisit the same rights as for those that wanna go North?

Mexitron - 7-27-2007 at 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eli[/

I think it would be more than 99% folks going North, but I really believe that it is so much more democratic if people from both sides of the boarder had the same rights. Of course, those folks foolish enough to want to work South of the boarder are few and far between, but, for the few looking to work and make their life on this side of the boarder, why shouldn't there exisit the same rights as for those that wanna go North?

That would be nice!

DENNIS - 7-27-2007 at 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eli

for the few looking to work and make their life on this side of the boarder, why shouldn't there exisit the same rights as for those that wanna go North?

I think it's all in place, Eli. There are many foriegners on both sides of the border working legally.
You're right though, Mexico is a good place to relax after the work years.

By the way....... Woody isn't kidding.

bajamigo - 7-27-2007 at 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz

Jesse, I commend your restraint in the choice of words you chose to use here...just as I suspect that most who know me will be amazed at my restraint!:

Unfortunately, that restraint wasn't terribly evident. Jesse's post was well thought-out and elegantly stated. Piling on Dennis, I'm sure, wasn't his intent. We all have the right to express our opinions on this board, as you acknowledge, but it's a little irritating when people drop the why-don't-you-go-back-to-where-you-came-from bomb. It doesn't add much to the discourse.

Al G - 7-27-2007 at 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz

Quote:

Like most women I have known, you lay-down the law, but it will never apply to you...in my opinion.

Finesse: not a strong suit here.

Lee - 7-27-2007 at 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
We could add that to the twelve billion spent in Iraq each month. Why not? We have nothing but money. We can't pay for veteran care or offer our students a well-rounded education or afford to build a mandated fence or.......well, the list goes on. But, these things don't matter, not when Mexico has to be built up to twenty first century standards.

Again, as in many of Dennis' posts, he makes some very good points. Millions spent everyday fighting a war we will soon pull out when the government could be helping people at home -- specifically, Vets! (Yes, Iraqi Vets are in the news again -- just can't seem to save them from falling between the cracks!) Same money could be building a fence and dealing with issues that directly effect the US. I'm a little cynical too. Maybe Dennis is alot cynical, and paints with broad strokes. That's all I'm getting here and like others, here, his points sometimes come across as rants. He's passionate, isn't he? I don't justify Dennis attacking people personally (and I've seen him do that) but that isn't the case here. Is there a perfect world out there? I don't think there is.

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
dennis is angry & miserable....

he just wants everyone to be as miserable...

as he is & he does a good job of stopping a lot of people from posting....

his critical, rude & thoroughly insensitive words.....

it's sad that he more frequently chooses to hide behind his right to express his opinion just like everyone else here...

though most others are capable of doing it without constantly inflicting hurt on others, and angering the majority...

he REFUSES to listen, believe or accept that fact that many find his words to be offensive.

He simply will not or cannot understand;

how frequently and blatantly he crosses the line of civility & common human decency.

dennis has no respect for anyone or anything other than dennis....

We're all WRONG and he's right 110% of the time!

maybe he should take that idea back to where ever he came from & set up his own little 'hate'ful bacon-wrapped hot dog stand!

Sorry dennis...simply stating my opinion as I also have a right to do...doubt you'll appreciate my opinion any more than most others appreciate your sentiments & the words you chose to state them in!

But it is my right, and like you I stand on my right to freely express MY opinion.

What you have written above is ABSOLUTELY uncalled for. You have no right to attack Dennis when his post attacks systems that aren't working: Mexico and the US.

In one recent post that comes to mind, where you attacked Dennis personally, along with the views he expressed, he apologized to everyone. Maybe other's have forgiven him except you.

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
You know Dennis... at least me, finds it very uncomfortable to put it mildly to read all your negative comments about my country.

Mexico and Baja is as much mine and Dennis' country as it is yours. You need to relax about Dennis and focus on the issues.

The Benefits (?) of Illegal Immigration.

MrBillM - 7-27-2007 at 09:19 AM

Hazelton, PA is suffering from a dramatic influx of illegal immigrants and passed an ordinance which would have increased enforcement by local authorities. A circuit court judge has ruled against the law which will be appealed.

Discussing the decision, the Mayor noted that the town's population has increased by 50 %, but the income tax base remains unchanged, creating a disastrous economic situation.

Of course, he's probably just an angry, frustrated, racist misanthrope like ALL the rest who oppose Illegal Immigration.

Hook - 7-27-2007 at 09:29 AM

In the news today, it looks like Senate leaders from both parties have al least agreed to add funding to continue closing the southern border in the pending Homeland Security Bill.

Far from becoming law, though...........

DENNIS - 7-27-2007 at 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
In the news today, it looks like Senate leaders from both parties have al least agreed to add funding to continue closing the southern border in the pending Homeland Security Bill.

Far from becoming law, though...........

I thought it was law. Did you mean, far from becoming reality?

JESSE - 7-27-2007 at 12:57 PM

I personally don't mind Dennise's comments, what i don't like its that they are brought up here, in this board, a board i consider a conduit for understanding betwen Americans and Mexico. As many of you know, Baja is changing, you have thousands and thousands of people from southern Mexico moving up here, and those people are very different from locals. They don't care about the "rich gringo" living in his "mansion", and like most Mexicans from the mainland, think that foreigners are there for taking advantage of.

Truth is, the lifestyle of both Americans and Locals living here has gone south. Theres more crime, more scams, things are more expensive, etc etc so why in the world would we want to make things worse when we already have way to little of what Baja was all about?

I remember this used to be a board where we all came to get our Baja fix, to remember the sunsets, the water, the people, and all the good things about this beautiful land. It was sort of a Baja mini vacation that we all took everyday just for a few minutes, sitting at our computers, in the stressed out life of Tijuana, Los Angeles, or San Diego. I find that more and more i come here to get away, but more and more i find the same stuff i can read on the net, or the daily newspapers, all the anger, the frustation, and it makes me sad.

Anyways, i respect free speech, but like i said, if the water is getting scarce, why poison one of the few clean wells we have?

Hook - 7-27-2007 at 12:59 PM

Most of the funding that Bush and Congress promised for extending the border fencing (before the last Congressional elections; what a shock!) was never actually attached to a bill.

So, this is an attempt to fund more of it.

"Far from becoming law" because it would have to go to a House/Senate conference committee and also be signed by Bush. This was an amendment to a much larger HS bill and it is unclear whether the Bush administration will sign it.

latortugaguera - 7-27-2007 at 01:25 PM

Want to solve Baja’s problems for you?! Stay home don’t move here. Case closed. Simple as that.

DENNIS - 7-27-2007 at 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
I personally don't mind Dennise's comments

Thanks Jesse............. I appreciate your above sentiment as well as the others in your post.
Our lives are different. Our opinions are molded from unsimiliar life experiences and I'm almost sure mine have been more messy than yours. For your sake, I hope so.

The Baja experience, for me, is held in a memory of what it used to be as well. I can't go anywhere without flashing back to a better tme in the same spot. The cultural differences and interchanges were night and day and the entire Penninsula was like being invited into someones home.

The hospility factor is little changed but everything else has moved along in the hands of time. Progress, I guess.

Our differences lie in the fact that I can't look at the past without seeing the present and future as well. Issues of today have to be addressed today and a strong sense of vigilance is required to maintain a memory of the past. I mean, how can one truly appreciate the past without being aware of today and tomorrow? Well, that's just me.

You, on the other hand, are able to lose yourself in the purity of the way it was. I envy you that. My visions of the past are burdened with a sense of loss.

Anyway.....Thanks.

Turtle Piles

MrBillM - 7-27-2007 at 01:42 PM

Remember those T-Shirts that said "I'm With Stupid" ?

Turtle's says "I AM Stupid".

Her analogy of Gringos in Baja with ILLEGAL Immigrants in the U.S. lacks any intellectual thought at all.

The U.S. Citizens going South bring with them Positive Financial results.

Besides, I am a LEGAL resident.

latortugaguera - 7-27-2007 at 01:48 PM

MB thank you for the testimony (Ugly American). Now go drink some pepto-bismol.

DENNIS - 7-27-2007 at 01:51 PM

Bill.......... Good one but, don't be too hard on La GÜERA. She just drops in occasionaly and says a thing or two. Usually it's about batting her eyes at a traffic cop and getting a free pass. I wish I could do that but, if I did, I'd probably get a black eye.

latortugaguera - 7-27-2007 at 01:54 PM

Personal offences, the only way some here know how to respond, specially when a woman is right.

JESSE - 7-27-2007 at 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
I personally don't mind Dennise's comments

I remember about 10 years back i went tru a period of my life where i felt it was the worst ever. Its funny, but 10 years later, and i find myself realizing those times where actually pretty great and wishing i could go back so i could dealt with those situation with a totally different attitude.

You also hear from people who where here in the 60s saying the 80s where crap, and people from the 80s saying the 90s went to hell, and people from the 90s saying we are in hell today. But you know what? if you pay close attention to newcomers, 18 to 20 yr old kids who just moved here and are working in a Hotel, or Time Share, or whatever. And they seem to think this is the best time ever, wich leads me to understand that it is all in our heads and our incapacity to deal with change.

Everytime i feel things are worse than they where before, i remember that theres a whole new generation that thinks today is the best time ever, and i realize that its up to me to follow a positive attitude because a positive attitude moves tru time. It is only once you permit yourself to stop following that attitude and you simply grab on to the past, that you find yourself left behind.

The good thing is, you can climb back anytime you want.

danaeb - 7-27-2007 at 02:07 PM

Getting back to the original point of this thread - civilized discourse on immigration - maybe the ancient Roman's have something to teach us:

"There's a widespread view that the Roman Empire was swept away mainly by a relentless tide of hostile outsiders; we've all heard ugly references to the "barbarian hordes" in today's immigration debates. But the truth is that Rome was the world's most successful multiethnic state until our own — and history's longest lasting one, bar none.

So it's natural to wonder if the Romans might have anything to teach Americans. I'd argue that they do. One lesson is that the notion of "taking control of the borders" is overrated; borders were pliable then, and are even harder to define (or police) now. A second lesson is the importance of nurturing a national culture. It was the source of Rome's power, just as it is the source of ours. "

cont'd:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-murphy16jun16,0,70...

DENNIS - 7-27-2007 at 02:15 PM

I wonder how Rome would have conducted themselves with a US style constitution and an ACLU. "Togas for everybody."

ilk

gibson - 7-27-2007 at 02:17 PM

whenever I meet ilk the likes of Dennis, MrB south of the border I just cringe. it's embarrasing. period

Name calling/personal attacks, again, Bill? Turtle get's to speak her mind too!

Lee - 7-27-2007 at 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Remember those T-Shirts that said "I'm With Stupid" ?

Turtle's says "I AM Stupid".

Her analogy of Gringos in Baja with ILLEGAL Immigrants in the U.S. lacks any intellectual thought at all.

The U.S. Citizens going South bring with them Positive Financial results.

Besides, I am a LEGAL resident.

So, as usual, Bill feels compelled to take pot shots at latortugaguera.

In his opinion, if she were to wear a t-shirt, it should read ''I AM STUPID."

Additionally, he believes her ''analogy'' lacks ''intellectual" thought. Well, I guess I needed Bill to point that out.

There was a thread earlier today on the right to expression here, and opinions. I'm guessing, but am not sure, that Bill believes that that attitude applies to everyone here except latortugaguera.

Bill? Don't you really just have some ''baggage'' with latortugaguera from the Off Topic forum? Why don't you consider taking future attacks and name calling there?

As far as US Citizens taking ''positive'' financial results South, I'm not sure where you're referring to? Loreto? The new marina in SJC? TJ? Who get's the positive results? Gringoes? Are you speaking for the Mexicans?

Geez

MrBillM - 7-27-2007 at 02:43 PM

Now I know how a "Special-Ed" Teacher feels.

ANYONE, especially Lee, is free to show ANY Mexican Economic Numbers they wish that will refute my contention that Foreign visitors and residents bring a net economic plus to Mexico. PERIOD. Where the money goes, who benefits and who loses is not the question. If there is a responsibility that the economic benefit is not fairly distributed, that is the fault of the Mexican Government.

Societal gains or losses are a separate question.

In the case of Tortuga's viewpoints, IF ANYONE here has EVER found ANY wisdom shown in her posts, please REPRINT that wisdom for our education.

As far as anyone not wanting to meet me in Baja, Who Cares ? I don't go there to meet other Gringos. We are mutually appreciative of not having met.

ADDENDUM

Having just noticed daneab's post regarding the ROMANS, I have to say that I doubt there is anything useful to be learned from their treatment of "other" peoples.

I am second to no one in my admiration of the technological achievements of the ancient Romans. However, that great society was also built upon conquest and enslavement to a degree never known before or after the long reign of their empire. They can, in no way, be looked upon as a shining example of multi-ethnic harmony.

[Edited on 7-27-2007 by MrBillM]

latortugaguera - 7-27-2007 at 03:10 PM

A Way Out of the Immigration Mess. Open the border.

SEE ?

MrBillM - 7-27-2007 at 03:12 PM

This is WISDOM worth debate ?

I rest my case.

latortugaguera - 7-27-2007 at 03:15 PM

I refuse to responde to your negativity.

:saint:

DENNIS - 7-27-2007 at 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by latortugaguera
A Way Out of the Immigration Mess. Open the border.

I guess you've already done that since I recall you saying you live in Baja with nothing more than an Ensenada [ your word ] drivers license. Illegals are illegals and get like respect from me regardless of where they are.

Al G - 7-27-2007 at 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by latortugaguera
A Way Out of the Immigration Mess. Open the border.

So you do not misunderstands...an open border should be everyone's goal and I have stated that before.
Excuse me , but dealing with people without a concept of the issues is very funny sorta like a 6 years old(age) jokes.
If you don't like people judging you harsh...consider changing you signature. Adults do not find it necessary to declare their closed mind attitude. Seems like someone beat the crap out of you politically and you could not defend yourself.
I am sure I will regret this latter...cannot help myself. :biggrin:

Maybe I am short on the adult issue too... :lol:

Dave - 7-27-2007 at 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gibson
whenever I meet ilk the likes of Dennis, MrB south of the border I just cringe. it's embarrasing. period

Are you disfigured or simply lack basic social skills?

bajamigo - 7-27-2007 at 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by latortugaguera
A Way Out of the Immigration Mess. Open the border.

Gee, somebody proposes a fresh idea and gets dumped on. It's an idea worth discussion, as our friends in the European Union have found out. Nobody's going to convince anyone that their position is wrong by personal attack. LaT, thanks for bringing it up.

Al G - 7-27-2007 at 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by gibson
whenever I meet ilk the likes of Dennis, MrB south of the border I just cringe. it's embarrasing. period

Are you disfigured or simply lack basic social skills?

I also want state...I may disagree with your view, or the way you write about the issue that concern you. I would still meet you on a social level, because almost every soul is good when not faced with issues and concepts that are as complicated as most we discuss here. No one should leave any discussion with hurt or anger in their hearts...if you cannot maybe you should consider not participating.

toneart - 7-27-2007 at 04:21 PM

Too often, form gets in the way of substance. However, I try not to be the Decorum Police here,

Everyone's opinion if valid. As Dennis points out (and I paraphrase), "our opinions are formed by our dissimilar experiences and background." This explains a lot and requires the willingness to understand. We can let go some of our hostility though, by continually reading, putting oneself in another's shoes, learning, keeping an open mind, practicing random (and not-so-random) acts of kindness and endeavoring to become a more highly evolved human being. Levity really helps too. Don't lose your sense of humor.

Eli, You are right, Welcome Center eerily connotes some kind of holding pen for a mass execution. Unfortunately, we have witnessed that reality all too often in hatred between culltures, or in despotic government leaders. I do think the author of the WSJ article hastily named it with benevolent intentions and he later realized its faults. An interesting safeguard was to suggest that it be located inside Mexico rather than in the United States.

I liked the idea of (sorry, don't remember who the poster was) the right for us to be able to work legally in Mexico. I do understand though, Mexico protecting jobs for its citizens. This is one thing that retains at least some of them at home.

Two very interesting quotations appeared in Mel Gibson's film, Apocalypto:
"A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within."--W. Durant
"Fear is a sickness. Fear will crawl into the soul of anyone who engages in it."
--One of the tribal leaders

These quotes reflect wisdom of the ages. They are lessons not learned and are not unique to our lifetime, but we are in those times now.

Al G - 7-27-2007 at 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajamigo

Quote:

Originally posted by latortugaguera
A Way Out of the Immigration Mess. Open the border.

Gee, somebody proposes a fresh idea and gets dumped on. It's an idea worth discussion, as our friends in the European Union have found out. Nobody's going to convince anyone that their position is wrong by personal attack. LaT, thanks for bringing it up.

Do you believe the Mexican is ready to hand over their government for their people :lol:

That is the only way, MAYBE people of the USA would agree...at least at this time. That is not addressing the real issues like indoctrinating the Mexican military into the US military so Borders could be protected.
Oooooh...I get it, you think there should be no borders... :lol:

Not in your life time amigo....but it is a noble idea....

Working the room

Dave - 7-27-2007 at 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by gibson
whenever I meet ilk the likes of Dennis, MrB south of the border I just cringe. it's embarrasing. period

Are you disfigured or simply lack basic social skills?

Guess I'll have to refine the humor a bit. :rolleyes:

oldlady - 7-27-2007 at 06:07 PM

Wow....what a fascinating thread.....are those bacon wrapped hot dogs, which admittedly I have never tried or even seen, better than a Nathan's Famous or a Thuman's?

Al G - 7-27-2007 at 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by gibson
whenever I meet ilk the likes of Dennis, MrB south of the border I just cringe. it's embarrasing. period

Are you disfigured or simply lack basic social skills?

Guess I'll have to refine the humor a bit. :rolleyes:

Sorry Dave...I should have deleted your post...my post was not about your post...sorry

DENNIS - 7-27-2007 at 06:24 PM

oldlady...........

Don't know the answer to that one but, the Bacon Wrapped Dog is one of the class acts of the area. I think these delicacies should be free of comparison. They should just be enjoyed.
By the way...........they're almost exclusively an outside treat, sold at rolling restaurants about town. If you look for one, you'll find it.
Bon Apetíte.

oldlady - 7-27-2007 at 06:41 PM

Dennis, clever retort....I shall seek...and, if my gastronomic resume is worth respect, let you know.

Eli - 7-28-2007 at 07:00 AM

Toneart, I suggest that if a U.S./Mexico work exchange program existed, that it should go both ways.

I think the U.S. favorite reason for not letting Mexicans come work; is that takes away work from U.S. citizens. Same as Mexico doesn't want U.S. workers because they say they will take work away from the Mexicans.

Well, I don't see much of an issue on either side. As in general the Mexican's are doing the work up North that no gringo wants to do. And it is a rare gringo that will take the cut in pay and work their tail off in order to take on a job in Mexico.

On a daily basis, I made 4 times as much as a waitress in a little railroader’s cafe up there as I did for the first 10 years running my construction company here.

As a waitress, I went home after my 8 hour shift; it was a gravy cruise, no stress.

As a contractor here, there were times that I was responsible up the ying yang for as many as 160 guys and 12 projects, I worked 16 hour days, and dreamt construction when I slept. It was an arse kicker stress wise. I am oh so glad I did it, but most people would wonder why, (it was simply because here is home, where my heart belongs, and always was, that was my prime motivator). It is so much easier to make the bucks state side and than come down here to retire.

When my daughter had just finished high school, and decided she wanted to come home and work in the family business; I hired her under the condition that she start with sweeping floors, washing dishes and helping the crew cook cut potatoes, and such. The Kid accepted and worked hard and watched all those around her, and she is smart and she learned, and well, one day she showed me how to work the bookkeeping more efficient than our bookkeeper ever dreamed of doing, so he was out and she didn’t have to cut potatoes anymore. Than she showed me how she could draw cleaner plans than our Architect ever thought of doing, and so she taught someone else to do the books and took over on design. And, than one day, she showed me how much better she could run our company than I could and so I happily retired. Now, she is an amazing boss with homegrown skills, organized, artistic talent, inspiration, humane, man she is the best…. I could just go on and on, I am so proud of her. But she is a rare bird; there are not too many folks out there who could pull off what she did.

On the other hand, that day so many years ago when she first came home, she brought this poor little ol Pocho boyfriend with her all the way from Oregon. Typical Mom, I didn't think he deserved her, but as she did, I did the only thing I could to get rid of him; I hired him as a Peon, he was gone within two weeks, whew....... that worked good, it takes a special soul to want to work down here.

Nope, I don't think we have to worry about gringos taking over the work force of Mexico, or the States either for that matter; After all one can make a lot more money on welfare with better benefits, than Ya ever would shaking crab in a fishery on the Northern Coast of California, or picking cherries, or working at MacDonald’s etc., etc.., and that is what most of your imported from Mexico workers do.

Jobs Gringos won't do ?

MrBillM - 7-28-2007 at 09:34 AM

Hm !

News coverage of the last ICE raid on the Swift Meat-Packing Plants noted that, after the previous raid, the company filled ALL of the vacated positions with LEGAL workers the NEXT day.

[Edited on 7-28-2007 by MrBillM]

toneart - 7-28-2007 at 09:56 AM

Eli,
I agree with your assessment of the reciprocal work subject. It takes a special motivation (and person) to endure what you have and make it a success. Then your daughter comes along and does it better. I'm sure that her motivation was her role model. I notice you live in Chiapas. San Cristobal de las Casas was one of the places in Mexico. I also spent a lot of time in Guatemala in the 1970's and was in the big temblor of 1976. Are you Pocha? When did you arrive there? Do you visit Baja? What is your connection with Baja? You can U2U me if you don't want to continue here. It looks like this thread has biodegraded into hotdogs anyway. I'm relieved because I was afraid that the heavy lifting caused by some deep thinking might just cause us all to tip over.

Al G - 7-28-2007 at 10:26 AM

"if a U.S./Mexico work exchange program existed, that it should go both ways."
I concur...but how do you envision it working?

toneart - 7-28-2007 at 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Hm !

News coverage of the last ICE raid on the Swift Meat-Packing Plants noted that, after the previous raid, the company filled ALL of the vacated positions with LEGAL workers the NEXT day.

[Edited on 7-28-2007 by MrBillM]

Glad to hear it. They should be legal.That is the rule of law. Do you take from this that the workers who replaced the illegals had formerly been shut out of the work opportunity by illegals? Did Swift have to raise the wage scale?

Stickers - 7-28-2007 at 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eli
Nope, I don't think we have to worry about gringos taking over the work force of Mexico, or the States either for that matter;

Great post Eli but I enjoyed the above sentence whether or not it was intentional. :tumble:

toneart - 7-28-2007 at 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
"if a U.S./Mexico work exchange program existed, that it should go both ways."
I concur...but how do you envision it working?

I think "work exchange program" is not an accurate label, even though we have let it slide during this discussion. "Work exchange" sounds like a government program, like a "student exchange" program. What we are talking about would have to begin by Mexico allowing legal alien residents to work while living there. As stated before, it is doubtful that the flow would be anywhere near equal in both directions, simply due to market conditions and wage standards. There are those who, by special personal motivations, would want to or have to work while living in Mexico. As to the flow of immigrant workers into the U.S (land of opportunity), a guest worker program would have to be implemented in order to identify and control the multitudes and establish an orderly distribution of assignments. Of course, as MrBillM seems to believe, this wouldn't be necessary because there is no demand. O'Reilly, er I mean, Oh really now. :?:

Dave - 7-28-2007 at 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
What we are talking about would have to begin by Mexico allowing legal alien residents to work while living there.

I've not known of a single legal alien who was refused a work permit. If a Mexican company wants to hire you Migra is gonna give the permission.

TMW - 7-28-2007 at 11:16 AM

If your not Hispanic your chances of getting a job picking anything in CA is pretty poor. Most of these field workers do not speak much english and the people that hire them only hire spanish speakers. The largest operations usually hire straight out except for certain times of the year. For the rest they are hired thru a third party. The whole thing is pretty much controlled by the UFW whether they are union or not, they set the guidelines. When I had young part timers working for me (high school and college) many told me they tried to get summer jobs working the fields but were not hired because they didn't fit in. When I asked what they meant they said they weren't Mexican.

The construction trade was full of illegals because they would work for less. I say was because with the down turn in housing the need is not as it was. Many of the illegals work for the subcontractors.

The ideal that an illegal is only taking jobs americans won't take is a bunch of crap. It's what some people want you to think to make it look better or to justify what they're doing. I'll bet the fence company in San Diego that got caught using illegals was not paying them prevailing wages but something less so they could make more profit. Some of these contractors will low ball a job bid then hire illegals because they don't pay the going wages. That hurts the honest contractors who do pay better wages and benefits.

DENNIS - 7-28-2007 at 11:27 AM

I didn't realize the word Pocho/Pocha was acceptable in a PC world.

Al G - 7-28-2007 at 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
"if a U.S./Mexico work exchange program existed, that it should go both ways."
I concur...but how do you envision it working?

I think "work exchange program" is not an accurate label, even though we have let it slide during this discussion. "Work exchange" sounds like a government program, like a "student exchange" program. What we are talking about would have to begin by Mexico allowing legal alien residents to work while living there. As stated before, it is doubtful that the flow would be anywhere near equal in both directions, simply due to market conditions and wage standards. There are those who, by special personal motivations, would want to or have to work while living in Mexico. As to the flow of immigrant workers into the U.S (land of opportunity), a guest worker program would have to be implemented in order to identify and control the multitudes and establish an orderly distribution of assignments. Of course, as MrBillM seems to believe, this wouldn't be necessary because there is no demand. O'Reilly, er I mean, Oh really now. :?:

OK...say we manage to do this...will it end the illegals crossing the border?

[Edited on 7-28-2007 by Al G]

toneart - 7-28-2007 at 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
What we are talking about would have to begin by Mexico allowing legal alien residents to work while living there.

I've not known of a single legal alien who was refused a work permit. If a Mexican company wants to hire you Migra is gonna give the permission.

Dave,
Why is this an issue in other discussions then?..... "You can't help your neighbor work on his house," etc? If he sponsors you, could you get a work permit with an FM3? Does your employer have to be a Mexican company? Why do gringo owned businesses have to only hire Mexicans? I really don't know. I was just responding to others here who raised the issue. If what you say is true, great, no problem.

toneart - 7-28-2007 at 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
I didn't realize the word Pocho/Pocha was acceptable in a PC world.

Isn't it? I don't believe it is considered derrogatory, at least it didn't used to be. It was a term that Mexicans used to identify American born/Mexican Americans. A Pocho/Pocha did feel a lack of acceptance, both in the United States and in Mexico. That caused identity crisis; a sense of not belonging anywhere. My observation of and conversations with my Mexican American friends traveling or living in Mexico is that the feeling of acceptance has improved now in Mexico. Political Correctness changes with the times and is hard to keep up with. PC is intended to respect sensitivities of those who would otherwise be offended. It certainly is not my intention to offend. Dennis do you know that this term is not PC? Can a Mexican American or a Mexican National enlighten us? If it is derrogatory I will certainly stop using it.

toneart - 7-28-2007 at 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
"if a U.S./Mexico work exchange program existed, that it should go both ways."
I concur...but how do you envision it working?

I think "work exchange program" is not an accurate label, even though we have let it slide during this discussion. "Work exchange" sounds like a government program, like a "student exchange" program. What we are talking about would have to begin by Mexico allowing legal alien residents to work while living there. As stated before, it is doubtful that the flow would be anywhere near equal in both directions, simply due to market conditions and wage standards. There are those who, by special personal motivations, would want to or have to work while living in Mexico. As to the flow of immigrant workers into the U.S (land of opportunity), a guest worker program would have to be implemented in order to identify and control the multitudes and establish an orderly distribution of assignments. Of course, as MrBillM seems to believe, this wouldn't be necessary because there is no demand. O'Reilly, er I mean, Oh really now. :?:

OK...say we manage to do this...will it end the illegals crossing the border?

[Edited on 7-28-2007 by Al G]

I say yes. The program would devise tamper proof ID cards. Illegals will be more easily segregated. It would satisfy the jobs that go unwanted. Companies would be severly penelized that hire illegals. If the jobs are filled, market conditions will take care of the problem. Those who can't get work will leave. Word will reach Mexico and eventually, they will stop coming. This is idyllic, I realize. Setting up a bureaucracy to successfully implement it is a daunting task. Lots of room for bungling.

DENNIS - 7-28-2007 at 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

Dennis do you know that this term is not PC? Can a Mexican American or a Mexican National enlighten us? If it is derrogatory I will certainly stop using it.

From my understanding of the term, it may be accepted by some northern born Mexicans. I liken that to the US white man accepting the term, "Gringo." Both terms have a derogatory base.

When Mexican nationals use the term, it is not in brotherly jest. It is a line of demarcation. A term applied to an abomination of perimeters. Mi tierra o nada.

To add some fuel to the impending conflagration, when "Pochos" return to Mexico for brief periods, for instance the vatos from East L.A. on a three day visit, some have a tendency to embrace Mexico as their true mother country as though nationalism was mapped in the blood like DNA. They are so proud to be Mexican when they actually arn't.
In tacitly denying their true mother land, their place of birth, and emotionally adopting the mother land of their ancestors, they are left in a type of Limbo. I've heard them refered to by Mexicans as "Men without a country."
These people would not like to be called Pocho.

In answer to your question, Tony..........No. I don't think it's PC to use that term. I think it's asking for trouble.

Al G - 7-28-2007 at 01:11 PM

Quote:

OK...say we manage to do this...will it end the illegals crossing the border?

[Edited on 7-28-2007 by Al G]

You have a reasonable concept...it will be in part or whole the system that will be used. IMO. The weak point here is tamper proof ID cards they are still having difficulty keeping people from counterfeiting our money...Makes me think we will still need "Da Fence"...but I believe someday all will rejoice when we can tear it down...

toneart - 7-28-2007 at 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
If your not Hispanic your chances of getting a job picking anything in CA is pretty poor. Most of these field workers do not speak much english and the people that hire them only hire spanish speakers. The largest operations usually hire straight out except for certain times of the year. For the rest they are hired thru a third party. The whole thing is pretty much controlled by the UFW whether they are union or not, they set the guidelines. When I had young part timers working for me (high school and college) many told me they tried to get summer jobs working the fields but were not hired because they didn't fit in. When I asked what they meant they said they weren't Mexican.

The construction trade was full of illegals because they would work for less. I say was because with the down turn in housing the need is not as it was. Many of the illegals work for the subcontractors.

The ideal that an illegal is only taking jobs americans won't take is a bunch of crap. It's what some people want you to think to make it look better or to justify what they're doing. I'll bet the fence company in San Diego that got caught using illegals was not paying them prevailing wages but something less so they could make more profit. Some of these contractors will low ball a job bid then hire illegals because they don't pay the going wages. That hurts the honest contractors who do pay better wages and benefits.

Discrimination is despicable wherever it turns up, and in The United States it is illegal in the workplace. Not fitting in is another matter. That is cultural and that's a hard barrier to break through and it is very intimidating. Good for you, hiring young high school and college kids.

I disagree with when you say "illegals are only taking jobs that Americans don't want is a bunch of crap." However, that may well be your personal experience. I am not here to invalidate your(or anybody's) personal experience. I do agree with you that some employers take illegals because they will work for less wages. That is a shame and needs to stop. I have said in other threads that the Construction Industry needs to regulate itself. An employer has a right to cut costs by paying low wages, but not at the expense of cutting quality or safety. Construction needs to set job qualification standards for skilled positions. Workers, no matter who they are, should have training available through manditory, stringent apprentice tiers, community college programs or ROP. Unskilled positions need to be filled by whomever is available legally.

I believe that the advent of illegals coming here and working is actually condoned by Corporate America, but when pressed, deny it. It is in fact, a source of cheap labor and definitely helps improve the bottom line. I also believe that most citizens of the United States don't condone the practice. It is a real conflict of interest, legally and morally. I wonder if they realize that if illegals were to stop coming and taking jobs, that the costs of goods and services would drastically go up for everybody? I suspect they would waffle and stammer about their moral attitudes, (which have become highly politicized) when the fit hits the shan.

DENNIS - 7-28-2007 at 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
I wonder if they realize that if illegals were to stop coming and taking jobs, that the costs of goods and services would drastically go up for everybody?

So what? We consume too much anyway

toneart - 7-28-2007 at 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
I wonder if they realize that if illegals were to stop coming and taking jobs, that the costs of goods and services would drastically go up for everybody?

So what? We consume too much anyway

Exactly!

Higher Prices ?

MrBillM - 7-28-2007 at 02:07 PM

The rise in prices would be insignificant.

Even in labor-intensive agriculture, the estimated increase in overall retail cost would be around five percent.

Al G - 7-28-2007 at 02:41 PM

Quote:

Construction Industry needs to regulate itself. An employer has a right to cut costs by paying low wages, but not at the expense of cutting quality or safety. Construction needs to set job qualification standards for skilled positions. Workers, no matter who they are, should have training available through manditory, stringent tamper proof ID cards tiers, community op. I have said in other threads that the college programs or ROP. Unskilled positions need to be filled by whomever is available legally.

As someone who has spent near 40 years in construction, I can tell you the industry has always regulated itself...until the wages fell out the bottom. I came through the system with 3 year at Delta college
construction apprentice Program...I now earn a living as a consultant/witness and repairing screwed up jobs.
A quality Contractor pay an average $50 per hour. The rest is in the $10 range...I am seldom ever called to help with a quality contractor.
The problem here is everyone want it for cheap (they do pay the price when I get there) it is now causing an exodus of quality. By the time most of the homeowners understands what is happening all the quality will be gone...it is a disaster...degrading everyday.
I will say I know one contractor who has a all Mexican crew and they are all quality craftmen...never have asked his pay scale.
Illegals will not go to school...will not learn by apprentice, because they are all both at the top and at the bottom...with no one to learn from. By the time they screwed up enough to learn by trial and error the home owners will have had enough and the Mexicans will have a very bad name and their wage structure will never go up. I do feel sad for them...
Training was always mandatory...until the illegals showed up.
If the disparity of wages was not 4 to 1 this would have never happened...American greed has no boundry.
We need to fix this...not for the gringo, but for the Mexican...
At this point I don't know if I am agreeing with you or not :biggrin:

toneart - 7-28-2007 at 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
The rise in prices would be insignificant.

Even in labor-intensive agriculture, the estimated increase in overall retail cost would be around five percent.

Where do you get that statistic? And be careful of using statistics in skewing an opinion; not that they can't be used correctly; it's just that they can be manipulated. Now, do you arrive at your 5% figure by logic? Are you saying that a fair wage, if not exploiting illegals, should only be raised by 5%?

toneart - 7-28-2007 at 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
Construction Industry needs to regulate itself. An employer has a right to cut costs by paying low wages, but not at the expense of cutting quality or safety. Construction needs to set job qualification standards for skilled positions. Workers, no matter who they are, should have training available through manditory, stringent tamper proof ID cards tiers, community op. I have said in other threads that the college programs or ROP. Unskilled positions need to be filled by whomever is available legally.

You are....I think. :lol:

We don't want illegals to go to our schools.

I used to teach English as a Second Language to latino immigrants in San Diego.
They were learning on behalf of the U.S. Government; Pell grants. They were the most ambitious, grateful students I have ever had. They knew that they were opening the door to success, getting out of the fields, getting better jobs, putting food on the table for their families. The benefit to the U.S. is that they moved into the mainstream of our society, cut down on crime and they paid higher taxes. The private sector and unions could also partner with the government to help out.

Yes, it was paid for through our taxes, but I witnessed many of their successes as they came back to find me, or if I would run into them on the street years later.

Mexitron - 7-28-2007 at 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
The rise in prices would be insignificant.

Even in labor-intensive agriculture, the estimated increase in overall retail cost would be around five percent.

I've heard that 5% figure used before...in certain types of agriculture it may well be true since its largely mechanized now. But I have a hard time believing the construction trade rates would only rise 5%. The Mexican community has been the backbone of the latest housing boom, like it or not. A labor shortage there should drive labor costs higher(given a robust economy that is...if we go into recession then rates may not rise that much). No, I don't have stats to back it up, just my hunch.

Picker Pay

MrBillM - 7-29-2007 at 09:37 AM

It is unquestionable that the percentage of "Stoop" labor varies with the crop. According to the Department of Agriculture, the total amount of labor costs represented by ALL hired labor (every level) at the farm varies from a low of around 14 % to a high of 27 % with Vegetables and fruits representing 21 %.

The National average paid for Farm Labor is 60.5 % of the average paid for non-farm labor. The OVERALL posited increase of 5 % for ALL farm products may, or may not, be optimistic. You'd have to look at how they crunched those numbers. In labor-intensive agriculture, 10 percent may be a more likely figure.

Since the TOTAL paid to Farmers represents less than 50 percent of the Retail price ( 34 to 47 with livestock being the highest), that would appear to factor ALL hired farm labor i.e. for vegetables, at around 10 percent of the Retail price. A DOUBLING of the wage paid in that case would, by itself, result in a 10 % increase in the price of vegetables. Less in other crops, more in livestock products. However, it is highly unlikely that the livestock segment would see such an increase since they are already better paid and, as a percentage, have a lower use of "illegal" labor.

CaboRon - 7-29-2007 at 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
I'm feeling like the teacher in Blackboard Jungle. Maybe I'm wasting my time in this environment.

Mexitron,
Thank you for bringing up a very valid issue. This whole thing with the fence is much more complicated than it first appears. Human issues are involved, peoples lives and livelyhoods are involved. We need a reasoned and practical response, not an emotional one, although deep emotional issues are congured here, as well as issues of national pride (on both sides of the border) ... and the everwidening gap (even in the US) between the rich and the poor.
Just a few thoughts, CaboRon

Hot dogs not served at this table

toneart - 7-29-2007 at 11:29 AM

Now that the hot dogs have departed, we are really getting some good discourse.
In grappling with important, albeit divisive subject matter, we all have the opportunity to give expression to our beliefs, knowledge and emotions. When the emotions are constructively channeled, we all take away from this banquet more than we brought.

DENNIS - 7-29-2007 at 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
Now that the hot dogs have departed, we all take away from this banquet more than we brought.

Oh yeah? What good is a banquet without a pile of bacon wrapped hot dogs?