BajaNomad - Installing a pila for the first time

Installing a pila for the first time

Santiago - 8-10-2007 at 06:57 AM

I will be installing a 450 liter pila about 8' high in October, cabin has 1 bath and 1 kitchen sink. This is my first time and I've noticed many different ways of plumbing them. I intend to have a 12 volt demand pump to increase pressure. The water will be trucked in. Any suggestions? Can the pump be located anywhere between the pila and the first faucet? I've noticed 2 types of PVC being used: regular 1/2" and a smaller pipe, looks like it's about 1/2" on the outside.
Thanks
Oh- saw the pilas at Home Depot in Ensenada for $900 pesos.

[Edited on 8-10-2007 by Santiago]

DENNIS - 8-10-2007 at 07:59 AM

I was looking at those Rotoplas tenacos yesterday. I might be using one beneath the house for gray water. The 450 liter tank I saw was 4' tall. What did you see that was 8' tall? Is yours going to be a gravity system with a demand pump booster? Is there any reason you wouldn't use a larger tank? 125 gallons won't last long.
Where are you located?
Do you have electricity? I'm guessing...no.
Use 3/4 inch, schedule 40 PVC.
How large is the water delivery truck, Pipa, in your area? A standard load in my area is 2500 gallons.

tripledigitken - 8-10-2007 at 08:19 AM

Dennis,

I'm sure he was referring to the height above ground of the installation not the dimension of the pila.

Ken

jerry - 8-10-2007 at 08:44 AM

Santiago

If your using 12v dc as a rv uses one half inch pvc is plenty big
Make sure there is some kind of vent so air can get in the tank
Its best if the inlet on the pump is below the tank so it floods the inlet
The out let of the pump should then be plumbed all cold water uses and the water heater
From the water heater to the valves you should use pvc for hot water
Be sure to put a switch in a handy place to turn off the 12 volt when your gone

jerry - 8-10-2007 at 08:47 AM

ps the inlet to the pump should have a gate valve in it so you dont loose all your water if repair is nessary be sure to turn this valve all the way on when in use

markshark - 8-10-2007 at 09:30 AM

If I can stray just a tad here, I was looking at these tanks in the ensenada home depot. Some are black and some are a tan color. They seem identical but the tan ones are about 20 dollars more. whats the difference?

Loboron - 8-10-2007 at 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Santiago
I will be installing a 450 liter pila about 8' high in October, cabin has 1 bath and 1 kitchen sink. This is my first time and I've noticed many different ways of plumbing them. I intend to have a 12 volt demand pump to increase pressure. The water will be trucked in. Any suggestions? Can the pump be located anywhere between the pila and the first faucet? I've noticed 2 types of PVC being used: regular 1/2" and a smaller pipe, looks like it's about 1/2" on the outside.
Thanks
Oh- saw the pilas at Home Depot in Ensenada for $900 pesos.

[Edited on 8-10-2007 by Santiago]

To answer your question, "Where to locate the pump" It's always best to locate the pump nearest the source or supply. This makes it easy for the pump to draw, and then it can push the water anywhere.

Al G - 8-10-2007 at 10:03 AM

Your booster pump will have predetermined sizes...most RV are 1/2"...I/O
Hard to give good advice...all installations are different.
From your pila to near pump inlet use any size... larger is better...reduce to 1/2" near inlet. Outlet must remain 1/2" to each deliver point...the larger the water column on outlet side, the more amps it requires to deliver the supply. Also locate the pump at the point you intend to "Y" to hot water tank...to reduce the distance it pushs in each direction. It is true to locate your pump near pila...pumps push better then draw...a large supply line will answer this problem. again I do not know the distance we are talking about...
Copper pipe should be used out of the hot water tank and it helps to insulate it.

[Edited on 8-10-2007 by Al G]

Bob and Susan - 8-10-2007 at 10:03 AM

santiago

if you're using a pump...why put the pila 8 feet high???

remember when you "feed the beast" you'll need to get the water up 8-12 feet
you or your delivery guy will need a gas-pump to "pump-it-up" :biggrin:

why not put the tank on or in the ground...
water weighs 8 pounds a gallon
that stuff is heavy

it's alot safer to have the weight on the ground if something breaks
and water falls much easier than it climbs

lot easier to work on too...later when it breaks

ALWAYS use 3/4 or one inch
you'll get MORE water to the sink and shower
1/2 inch won't give you any distance
you'll have a Dibble on the other end

PVC Pipe

MrBillM - 8-10-2007 at 10:11 AM

The smaller diameter pipe may be CPVC which is usually used for hot water applications. I believe that pipe is measured by OD. In any case, CPVC 1/2 or 3/4 IS smaller in diameter than PVC.

I have had CPVC in use for Hot water applications for 20 years without any problems at all. A lot easier and cheaper than Copper. In many U.S. locales, including California, it is approved for residential use.

bajajudy - 8-10-2007 at 10:32 AM

If you have a pump, be sure to have a turnoff floater in the tenaca so you wont burn your pump up if the water runs out.

Al G - 8-10-2007 at 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
Your booster pump will have predetermined sizes...most RV are 1/2"...I/O
Hard to give good advice...all installations are different.
From your pila to near pump inlet use any size... larger is better...reduce to 1/2" near inlet. Outlet must remain 1/2" to each deliver point...the larger the water column on outlet side, the more amps it requires to deliver the supply. Also locate the pump at the point you intend to "Y" to hot water tank...to reduce the distance it pushes in each direction. It is true to locate your pump near pila...pumps push better then draw...a large supply line will answer this problem. again I do not know the distance we are talking about...
Copper pipe should be used out of the hot water tank and it helps to insulate it.

MrBill is correct...cpvc can be used...don't know about availability. I am old school and don't like it because of size and real tough to pre fit...I can string long runs of copper and then solder without didassembly....means nothing depending on conditions.
A link if you really interested...
http://www.buildings.com/articles/detail.aspx?contentID=3421

The advantage to height is head preassure...no power it still give water. depending on how it is installed...may not need pumping for most applications...demand switches will also conserve DC power...assuming you need to. effectiveness of RV pumps is in the installation... Another link:
http://www.shurflo.com/pdf/rv/Euro/RVEnglishA4.pdf
In 12/24 volt installations you may need to use dual pumps.

EDIT: I do remember the words Cabin...1 sink...! shower and I assumed this was an off grid installation...

[Edited on 8-10-2007 by Al G]

Cypress - 8-10-2007 at 12:09 PM

Ever thought of using a bildge pump? :spingrin:

Al G - 8-10-2007 at 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Ever thought of using a bildge pump? :spingrin:

They work great...and if they are used that's even better... :?:

DENNIS - 8-10-2007 at 01:54 PM

Poor ol' Santiago.........

For every problem we solved, we gave him three more. Oh well, he'll figure it out, I'm sure.

Bob and Susan - 8-10-2007 at 02:00 PM

but dennis 118 gallon tank???
that's tiny :no:

DENNIS - 8-10-2007 at 02:04 PM

I agree, Bob, but maybe it's just for very limited use. Who knows. Santiago is AWOL. We need more information if we're to properly confuse him.

Al G - 8-10-2007 at 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
I agree, Bob, but maybe it's just for very limited use. Who knows. Santiago is AWOL. We need more information if we're to properly confuse him.

Al G - 8-10-2007 at 02:47 PM

My tank is sorta small too...

bajamigo - 8-10-2007 at 02:58 PM

Mine, too. I need to stop a lot on long trips.

Santiago - 8-10-2007 at 03:04 PM

Sorry guys for AWOL - i actually had to work today.
1. Small cabin off grid.
2. Use for 6 to 10 days by a couple of guys who might take a couple or three showers. BUT must be prepared for what seems likely to be more frequent wifely visits.
3. Will put the pila on the top of a block room with a concrete roof. Then will have some pressure should pump fail (I will have a spare one on hand).
4. The pila will be next to the bath and about a 15' run of pipe to the kitchen sink.
5. Currently, a small gas hot water tank sits next to the shower and is plumbed with copper but with about a 12" plastic/rubber hose from the copper to the tank (both hot and cold). If I deside to plumb hot water to the bath or kithchen sink then I'll use the CPVC for that.
6. Look like I should use 1" from the pila outlet to the pump and 1/2" from the pump to the supply system? Obviously a gate valve between the pump and the pila.
7. Does anyone actually drink the stuff out of the pila?

Al G - 8-10-2007 at 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Santiago
Sorry guys for AWOL - i actually had to work today.
1. Small cabin off grid.
2. Use for 6 to 10 days by a couple of guys who might take a couple or three showers. BUT must be prepared for what seems likely to be more frequent wifely visits.
3. Will put the pila on the top of a block room with a concrete roof. Then will have some pressure should pump fail (I will have a spare one on hand).
4. The pila will be next to the bath and about a 15' run of pipe to the kitchen sink.
5. Currently, a small gas hot water tank sits next to the shower and is plumbed with copper but with about a 12" plastic/rubber hose from the copper to the tank (both hot and cold). If I deside to plumb hot water to the bath or kithchen sink then I'll use the CPVC for that.
6. Look like I should use 1" from the pila outlet to the pump and 1/2" from the pump to the supply system? Obviously a gate valve between the pump and the pila.
7. Does anyone actually drink the stuff out of the pila?

If you do your's are bigger then mine... :lol:

Whew...that was an important edit...

[Edited on 8-10-2007 by Al G]

DENNIS - 8-10-2007 at 03:30 PM

Don't drink the water. Drink Pacifico.

Al G - 8-10-2007 at 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Don't drink the water. Drink Pacifico.

That includes bottled water...I even shower with Pacifico...don't worry I substitute Tacate when nobody looking...I wish I was rich...I would use champagne...never Pacifico...unless it was used...

DENNIS - 8-10-2007 at 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
I even shower with Pacifico...don't worry I substitute Tacate when nobody looking...I wish I was rich...I would use champagne...never Pacifico...unless it was used...

Wait Albert, no, no........not used Pacifico.

Al G - 8-10-2007 at 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
I even shower with Pacifico...don't worry I substitute Tacate when nobody looking...I wish I was rich...I would use champagne...never Pacifico...unless it was used...

Wait Albert, no, no........not used Pacifico.

Uh-oh got lost on the keyboard...I swear... :lol:

BajaWarrior - 8-10-2007 at 04:32 PM

There may be a "lift" or "rise" problem if the tank is too low. You cannot use a bilge pump because it wont shut off, you need a demand type, SHURFLO is the RV type, DC power, and has an automatic shutoff. They make a "whisper" type, a little more but without the rattle. Also, mount it on rubber, then on wood then attach to wall and it will control the noise.

Definatley install a switch, even a household switch, and turn off even if your leaving for the day, and make it accesible. Also, a whole house shutoff valve just as the water line enters the house before it reaches the pump

I am running 3/4" PVC throughout my system and no problems. I'm using copper right out of the Water Heater for about 16" (corrugated type for water heaters) I have always wondered if the pressure would be better if I were using 1/2 PVC though, anyone? The Shurflo pump is rated for 45 psi I believe.

My tank is actually mounted on my roof, atop three intersecting walls. It is the black Mexi type that is probably about 400 gallons. My water guy's tank is 300, so it never overflows unless I've jumped the gun on requesting water. You may want to get a bigger tank, depending on what your water guy's tank holds. In our campo, it's not the water you pay for, it's the delivery.

I've had my casa for about 15 years now, I've also gone through three pumps in that time, but always keep a spare.

Do not drink the water! Bring vended water in the large Sparkletts bottles, get a crock and stand also, from home or stop in town at the water purifying plant.

[Edited on 8-10-2007 by BajaWarrior]

Roberto - 8-10-2007 at 05:21 PM

Shurflo washdown pump. Cheaper that RV types, and just as good.

Debra - 8-10-2007 at 08:30 PM

Santiago...........pay VERY CLOSE ATTENTION, so you get this right and can help me with mine!

Bob and Susan - 8-11-2007 at 05:28 AM

Santiago and Debra

Do it right the FIRST time!!!!

put the tank on the ground
susan and i use 500 gallons a week

we do a load of wash daily
we take 2 showers or more...
(depending on susan's mood)

Get a bigger tank...180gal is NOT enough

we have a dual axel trailer with a traveling 500gal water tank to fill the pila
cost $1800
our monthly fee to the water company is $15
we get our own water ... for now
our pila for the garage 2000 gal 3 tanks hooked together

a delivery water truck here to fill tanks here is now $100 per delivery
a partial truck is still $100
GET the BIGGEST tank you can afford or several and hook together with plastic pipes

get a pressure pump WITH a presure tank
Here at the local hardware store $500
they draw 7-9 amps 110-120v for 2-3 minutes at a time

use a teo inch pipe from pila to the top of the pila
use a ONE inch pipe from the top of the pila to the pump
and back-flow pieces so the water ONLY goes one way
(to keep the pump "primed")

3/4" after the pump to the casa
(sched 40 plastic is OK)
ANY plastic...if in the sun or elements it MUST be painted

1/2" COPPER in the casa 3/4" would be better but your run is not that long
DO NOT use plastic in the casa no matter what ANYONE says
(plastic is NOT to code in So CALIFORNIA) :light:

Do it once and enjoy life
"Cheap-out" and you'll be "goofin" with the pump and pipes forever

[Edited on 8-11-2007 by Bob and Susan]

DENNIS - 8-11-2007 at 07:37 AM

Bob..........

How far do you have to haul water? A most common water truck is 2500 gallons. is that what they use when chargeing 100 dollars per load? I'm aware of all the obvious differences but, up here we pay 28 bucks per load. Add 5 if it goes over the hill to the Buf.
I'm sure you've considered buying a water truck for your use. It might pay for itself in time, especially if you partnered up with a couple of other users in your area.
Just a thought.

Bob and Susan - 8-11-2007 at 08:08 AM

we're 10 miles from the water pump

the price last year was $60 a truckload delivered
prices have increased... :barf:

we've thought about getting a truck but opted on a trailer
much less hassel...

might get a BIGGER one later
we'll see...

it takes 45 minutes to drive to the pump...fill-ur-up...and return

"parterning up" is NOT in our plans...
we don't want to be in the "water business"

having your own tanker does make you more independent...
we like that... :saint:

i get to wash the truck on sunday morning like always :spingrin:

what FUN!!! :biggrin:

Al G - 8-11-2007 at 08:48 AM

Bob...Please re-read Santiago's post...
What you are disscribing is a great setup for a LARGE casa...with very high water demands. You have AC power...he has limited DC power....no AC available :rolleyes:

He has a sink...shower, and I am assuming a toilet :lol:

....no washer...no dryer. His consummation for his poco casita, will be in ball park of mine...100 gal per week....I do waste more then I should too. The system he CAN use is what I have and it has been operating for 19 years without failure...I have a $48 back-up pump, because not sure what next week will be for this pump's future :lol:

...may have to waste 15 minutes to replace it. Not trying to knock you...would never do that...his needs are different then you think they are...if I am wrong I will apologize. Not sure of Debra's needs...

Diver - 8-11-2007 at 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
Not sure of Debra's needs...

Well I certainly hope not !!

Bob and Susan - 8-11-2007 at 10:10 AM

lets do some math...

2 guys 10 days 1 shower each a day (requried by the "wife law")
6 gallons a shower = 120 gallons
bring 2 wives = 120 more gallons

we're up to 240 gallons for the 10 days

kitchen sink for dishes and washing hands after tiolet (REQUIRED!!!)
5 gallons a day = 50 gallons

we're up to 290 gallons

flushing the tiolet...
let's see...regular GUYS...3 flushes per day
Old GUYS...6 flushes per day
this all depends on "their tank" :lol:

(re: you DO NOT pee outside when you have your own place)

2 "Old Guys" 12 flushes per day 10 days @ 2 gallons per flush
= 240 gallons per trip

2 extra wives (always need extra flushes) = another 240 gallons for flushing

the total with all this water for 10 days could be up to:
770 gallons easily

a 180 gallon pila is too small...they need a larger unit
the "wife law" requires it :lol:

Now...
it's a small cabin
if they dont have an inverter to convert 12v to 110-120v how are they going to bring the direct tv and watch the "game"??? :lol:

they MUST have an inverter( "football viewing rules" )

this IS NOT 1948...we "WATCH" the game!!! :lol:

now...about debra...what are HER needs??? :lol:

Bob and Susan - 8-11-2007 at 10:20 AM

i was just in town buying paint and
the hardware store had a 110-120v pump and pressure tank for $375
it was ready to "plug-in"

DENNIS - 8-11-2007 at 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
we're 10 miles from the water pump

the price last year was $60 a truckload delivered
prices have increased... :barf:

we don't want to be in the "water business"

Wow. Your water prices went up 65% from last year. That's a big increase. If you need a construction loan, I guess you know who to ask.
We are about the same distance from the source, 20 miles up and back.
I wasn't suggesting selling water although hiring a driver for your pipa would have some advantages if he could run a business between supplying you. Probably no-cost water for your operation.

Paulina - 8-11-2007 at 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan

....bring 2 wives = 120 more gallons

..(re: you DO NOT pee outside when you have your own place)

.....2 extra wives (always need extra flushes) = another 240 gallons for flushing

now...about debra...what are HER needs??? :lol:

This is fun....bring 2 wives, ok, but then bring 2 "extra" wives? Aren't two enough? :lol:

Why not pee outside when you have your own place? It would make more sense to pee outside of your own place than if you were at someone else's pad. Just curious. It's kind of like marking your territory. I guess it depends on your wife law, or how close your neighbor's place is.

Debra's needs? I think that's a whole new thread! :saint:

Seriously, we are going to update our water situation down south as well, and find the info provided very helpful. Thanks all.

P<*)))><

Santiago - 8-11-2007 at 12:18 PM

"Extra wives"?????? are you guys kidding. Andy and I can barely handle our homework let alone extra credit. The only reason we get excited about crossing the border now-a-days is that the fishing is better - although, as I recall, the smell's about the same...... :coolup:

Now as for Debra's needs, I think Iflyfish will have to step in.

Al G: I agree with your assessment but something rings a bit true about Bob's calcs. I suppose I could go with the 450liter and just add one to it. Might spread the load a bit of the concrete slab roof.

Also, by the way, I got a U2U suggesting to not use the work "pila" but "tinaco" as he had much confusion in trying to buy one using "pila".

DENNIS - 8-11-2007 at 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Santiago

Also, by the way, I got a U2U suggesting to not use the work "pila" but "tinaco" as he had much confusion in trying to buy one using "pila".

That's a good point. It's too bad people have to U2U when the info would benefit a lot of people around here.

Cypress - 8-11-2007 at 12:30 PM

Extra wives? :?:

Jeez. Have only one and she keeps me fully occupied all by herself

Pescador - 8-12-2007 at 07:30 AM

I have a friend in San Bruno who runs his entire house with a Shurflo Extreme Blaster which pumps approx 6.5 GPM at 45PSI which gives you plenty of volume for showers and everything and he opted for a 12 volt system, even though they have 120 volt power, since they have frequent power outages on the grid, which results in no water outages.
I have a 120 volt pressure pump with an 18 gallon bladder tank and have set up a 12 volt system as a backup for times when there is no power. I use a simple battery charger on trickle charge to keep the 12 volt fully charged all of the time. In my old place we used solar power so we used the 12 volt system all of the time. The smaller shurflo pumps usually produce about 3.5 gph which was always a little light but when I went to the 6.5 then I had more than enough volume for everything.
Bob Frambes is right on with the pipe size reccomendations. Stay with the largest size you can for flow and velocity. 3/4 carries almost twice as much as 1/2 and 1 inch is even better. For hot water make sure to use CPVC or copper, and the new polybutelene flex pipe can handle both and is great to work with but needs banded and compression fittings.

Bob and Susan - 8-12-2007 at 07:51 AM

pesc

your Shurflo Extreme Blaster takes 10-15 amps at 12v and cost ~$200

with an inverter and a 120v pump you would use 7 amps and have a bigger pump...the cost ~$400

of course the amp use is ONLY when the pump is running and with a pressure pump the pump runs less often thus taking less energy

that shurflo does look like a nice pump... :light:

i really have problems using plastic pipes in permanate applications like a cabin...maybe just "old fashion"... :biggrin:

those compression fittings with CPVC sometimes leak and pressure DOES change from time to time... :light:

i like solder... :saint:

Debra - 8-12-2007 at 08:11 AM

[

"Now as for Debra's needs, I think Iflyfish will have to step in." posted by Santiago

Huh? Who is Iflyfish, and how would he/she know my "needs"

Better explaine yourself sir! :lol:

[Edited on 8-12-2007 by Debra]

Santiago - 8-12-2007 at 08:51 AM

Deb: I believe he's a psychologist...... :lol:

Debra - 8-12-2007 at 09:34 AM

Oh, guess you know my needs better than I thought! :biggrin:

Pescador - 8-12-2007 at 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
pesc

your Shurflo Extreme Blaster takes 10-15 amps at 12v and cost ~$200

that shurflo does look like a nice pump... :light:

i really have problems using plastic pipes in permanate applications like a cabin...maybe just "old fashion"... :biggrin:

those compression fittings with CPVC sometimes leak and pressure DOES change from time to time... :light:

i like solder... :saint:

I found the pump for about 175 I think at http://www.rivermarinesupply.com

I too like copper, but have become sensitive to copper in a lot of uses in the house when I started to do the testing for our little water association. When the water sets for the night the first dose in the morning has a pretty high copper content. The real problem though was lead from the old solder joints that was really screwing up the water quality and the lead content was really high, so we had to replace the plumbing on several houses with PVC to get things to pass.

I installed a sears 1.2 hp shallow well jet pump with a bladder pressure tank and will probably use the shurflo as a backup. My friend uses it all the time and keeps a rebuild kit on hand should he ever have problems with the pump part. He tried the new variable speed and it was a disaster so Shurflo exchanged the pump for a constant speed and it has worked like a dream.