BajaNomad

Loreto Development question

djh - 8-18-2007 at 08:23 PM

With all that is going on at Loreto Bay, and the planned FADESA development, and all of the concerns about it... Do you think there is any advantage to be had from what is happenning in the Todos Santos area with the "Special Master Plan".

It may be worth a look by some of you who are keeping up with it....

Also ~ any Todos Santos area Nomads care to comment on their perspective of the Master Plan and process there?

best,
djh

Osprey - 8-19-2007 at 07:05 AM

djh, please permit me to second your thought and elaborate a little. I live in La Ribera (on the other side of the peninsula from Todos Santos) and we are going through growing pains that beg for a master plan. It's a sticky subject: Should the gringos in these little towns be involved? If so, to what extent? If they own homes and businesses in the villages one could argue they have a stake in things. Should they simply wait til the village forms an action group or start one up? Could the gringo contingent work and plan and worry only to have the county tell them (at some later date) that the planning is done on a county level and it's all taken care of, don't worry about it, we got it handled....
I'll be very interested in what happens on the other side because our huge new developments in this area will start in earnest at the end of hurricane season (November).

Diver - 8-19-2007 at 07:43 AM

In small town Mexico, it seems that much of the problem is in getting the locals to participate; the gringos are mostly willing and somewhat informed.
My suggestion would be to approach a few well-thought-of locals and to inform/educate them about the concept of land planning and the potential to apply the principals to their own area.
If you are well received, consider a series of small town meetings led by your local ambassadors; perhaps a series, for different neighborhoods or interest groups, to keep the meetings small and non-confrontational.
At some point, the local Mayor or government must be approached and involved.
Once all of the various comments and desires are put to paper/map, a series of alternatives can be developed for a vote on 2-4 alternatives. Preparing a number of alternatives for vote after a successful input process will define the alternatives and the length of the process.
At latest, you should involves the government prior to the final vote. Submit the process steps and raw data collected at each step, etc. Have the vote taken under the local gov's supervision so it will be "legal". After the vote, the local council or gov must adopt the plan as "law" and penalties must be set up for enforcement.
This is not a short process, even in the states.
Good luck, Osprey !!

.

Don Alley - 8-19-2007 at 07:47 AM

Well, Loreto has a master plan...sort of. It's little more than a map showing levels of development in various areas from Ensenada Blanca to El Bajo (the San Bruno development is off the map and not part of the plan). As far as I know there is little in the way of guidance on the development of infrastructure.

The plan was originally developed by FONATUR and presented to Loreto's local government, along with a modestly more restrictive alternative presented by some Loretanos. There was a public meeting, which included a presentation by the Loreto Futures Alternative group. Expats were welcomed at the meeting.

I believe the plan approved by Loreto was essentially the original plan developed by FONATUR and I think the maps are on display in the city hall.

amir - 8-19-2007 at 07:50 AM

What we thought was that development is inevitable, and that the planning has really already been done. With the billions of dollars to be made from these "plans", we feel that our voices and concerns are moot no matter how loud or how often we scream.

We also recently found out that this Master Plan is a 50 year plan.
How much time and effort should we personally invest now in Mexican Government and Mexican Big Business deals and projects that may or may not happen in 50 years?

They recently eliminated the 18-mile malecon that was proposed from Rancho Nuevo to north of Las Tunas. That project was surely stupid and we are glad it's gone. We hope that many more of the ridiculous ideas in this plan will be eliminated also.

But I cannot imagine anybody or anything stopping the development of a resort here and there, and a golf course here and there, and gated communities here and there, and a shopping mall here and there. This area is going to grow and the most beautiful beaches and pristine areas will go first. Look at what is happening to Los Cerritos: One of the top surfing spots IN THE WORLD, all campers and RV's have been evicted, they built a private "beach club", there are new fences and roads everywhere, and, they didn't plan for access to all these hundreds of tiny subdivided lots. Now gringo is sueing gringo and more houses are going to have to be built for the lawyers who are going to be busy for a long time litigating this outrageous rape of what once was a public jewel in Baja.

On the other hand, we thought that growth and development in this area can only help my Chiropractic business and our Art Gallery. And if Todos Santos becomes another Cancun, then it would be that much easier and cheaper for our children and friends to come visit more often.

--Amir

Phil S - 8-19-2007 at 08:50 AM

Let's see. Gringos "find" Baja. Gringo buys Baja. More gringo's come to Baja for same reasons. Oh my god!!!! We've got to stop this. Only way is to infiltrate into Mexican communitys politics to 'get it stopped'. Woooopsss!!! Aren't foreigners supposed to stay out of Mexican politics? Financially or participating for their "friends" campaign?
Reminds me of when 'foreigners' came to America. Indians very unhappy after a while. White man put them on reservations. Shot their buffalo (fish in Baja) White man/woman married into tribes over the years(see this going on in Baja???) Eventually over many moons, indian begins to give up, and starts new 'war plan'. Build casino's. Take profits and start buying land back. Make more profits. Build more casino's. (white man loves to gamble) Make more profits. Buy more land & buildings. Start 'indian business' with white mans money. Make more profit. So this is a very slow movement that will eventually get their land back, and not cost them any money. Wonder if the Mexican people have thought of doing this yet in their country. Baja would be a wonderful place to start a casino. Then in another ten years, you'd start referring to Loreto as the Gambling City of Baja, just like Last Wages became in Nevada. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! What's this world coming to????????????????????????:?:

Diver - 8-19-2007 at 09:07 AM

Phil,

Calm down, the gringos are not taking over; yet.
They are just discussing the virtues and potentials of planning actions.
All over the US, legal and illegal immigrants regularly vote in land use and other elections all over our country.

As I said, all you can do is attempt to educate and see if there is any interest. Without local interest, nothing will happen.
I very much object to the big corporation coming into town and overpowering or paying their way through a new master planned anything. I am very much in favor of local decision-making before things get out of hand. I believe expatriot input is and should be valued in areas where many of them live as they have knowledge of what makes the community successful in their eyes.

.

Osprey - 8-19-2007 at 09:47 AM

There are lots of gringos who say "but out", leave the planning to the Mexican villagers - don't get involved. I used to think that way but in this little village I was there and involved when the gringos were able to help the village. Gringos put in new air-conditioning units in the clinic, helped build a velatorium, raised all the money for a new kitchen for the secondary school, met with the governor to turn around a bad local crime problem, wired the church in the next little village. I wrote and printed pamphlets explaining (English and Spanish) how our village might be impacted by the new hotel/marina project starting this fall on our beach. I think there are lots of good things gringos can do but I'm still struggling with the legal/social/philosophical parts of the thing -- just how much help is too much? What kind of help is arrogant missionary medling? We don't really have the right -- do we have the obligation? Lots of questions, not easy answers.

Capt. George - 8-19-2007 at 10:10 AM

Osprey


lost your e address! please e or U2U me thanks

wilderone - 8-27-2007 at 11:52 AM

"I think there are lots of good things gringos can do but I'm still struggling with the legal/social/philosophical parts of the thing -- just how much help is too much? What kind of help is arrogant missionary medling? We don't really have the right -- do we have the obligation?"

It's time for you to take action. It's not missionary meddling, you're a member of the community - they ask for public input at public meetings - so provide input.
In the Tahoe Basin of California, building regulations and master plans govern everything that happens. The east cape area of Baja and for that matter, the entire peninsula, is very ecologically sensitive, as is the Gulf of Calif. and is impacted by development.

Some of the regulations that the Tahoe area employs are: lot rating determined by ecological sensitivity. For instance if your lot is steep, your lot score is lower, so you have less coverage to build upon. Best Management Practices, which entail all kinds of remedial things that each homeowner is responsible for, like drip lines, runoff control, etc. There are municipal projects that channel drainage runoff and revegetate where necessary. There are ordinances for signs (none), house colors, pier limit, buoy limit, setback from shoreline, cannot cut trees without a permit (some exceptions). Zoning, of course; number of building permits per year; there was a 5-year building moratorium to establish master plans or ordinances. And of course, the environmenal impact statement which is filed for commercial and municipal projects. Some residential areas have a corridor running behind an entire block in order to provide open space which can't be built on. Although cumbersome, there are many agencies that oversee development, and require various approvals.

Many of these ideas could be implemented in your master plan - like the number of building permits allowed per year so that the pace of development, and therefore its ramifications, can be analyzed; zoning and impact reports so a gas station is not built next to an estuary, and a school next to an airport. But none of this will be worth a whit if the government is crooked and can be bought off by developers to get anything they want. And from what has occurred so far, the people have spoken and have indicated their concern for handling more sewage, water and trash in the future. First and foremost, these infrastructure and basic problems need to be resolved. If the powers that be cannot get past this point satisfactorily, then that needs to be pointed out as well. One significant factor you have is the fact that they are having public meetings where the exchange of ideas and information can take place.

You could do a web search of US development and communities which have building regulations and master plans and probably come up with a ton of ideas for your region which would serve to protect and preserve the Gulf, provide open space, recreation, etc. So speak up!!

Marie-Rose - 8-27-2007 at 05:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by djh
Also ~ any Todos Santos area Nomads care to comment on their perspective of the Master Plan and process there?


A couple of concerns I have heard is 1) It is the same old of problem of who is going to police and enforce this plan?
2) There are several large Mexican developers on the council... who knows what impact that will have.

[Edited on 2007-8-28 by Marie-Rose]

jerry - 8-28-2007 at 06:39 PM

t's time for you to take action. It's not missionary meddling, you're a member of the community - they ask for public input at public meetings - so provide input.
In the Tahoe Basin of California, building regulations and master plans govern everything that happens. The east cape area of Baja and for that matter, the entire peninsula, is very ecologically sensitive, as is the Gulf of Calif. and is impacted by development.

Some of the regulations that the Tahoe area employs are: lot rating determined by ecological sensitivity. For instance if your lot is steep, your lot score is lower, so you have less coverage to build upon. Best Management Practices, which entail all kinds of remedial things that each homeowner is responsible for, like drip lines, runoff control, etc. There are municipal projects that channel drainage runoff and revegetate where necessary. There are ordinances for signs (none), house colors, pier limit, buoy limit, setback from shoreline, cannot cut trees without a permit (some exceptions). Zoning, of course; number of building permits per year; there was a 5-year building moratorium to establish master plans or ordinances. And of course, the environmenal impact statement which is filed for commercial and municipal projects. Some residential areas have a corridor running behind an entire block in order to provide open space which can't be built on. Although cumbersome, there are many agencies that oversee development, and require various approvals.

Many of these ideas could be implemented in your master plan - like the number of building permits allowed per year so that the pace of development, and therefore its ramifications, can be analyzed; zoning and impact reports so a gas station is not built next to an estuary, and a school next to an airport. But none of this will be worth a whit if the government is crooked and can be bought off by developers to get anything they want. And from what has occurred so far, the people have spoken and have indicated their concern for handling more sewage, water and trash in the future. First and foremost, these infrastructure and basic problems need to be resolved. If the powers that be cannot get past this point satisfactorily, then that needs to be pointed out as well. One significant factor you have is the fact that they are having public meetings where the exchange of ideas and information can take place.

You could do a web search of US development and communities which have building regulations and master plans and probably come up with a ton of ideas for your region which would serve to protect and preserve the Gulf, provide open space, recreation, etc. So speak up!!

wilderone if you really think this is the way baja should go you should move back to the the big city in the US and feel right at home in the concrete jungle
i dont think the mexicans or the great majority of gringos want to turn baja into the likes of this
but maybe Loreto Bay Might be willing to put you on as an adviser?? lol