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Minnow - 8-24-2007 at 04:02 PM

That is not that much. In May they caught my neighbor in Cantu with 14,000 lbs in his garage. He said his son let some friends put it there and he didn't know about it. :?:

Oso - 8-24-2007 at 04:12 PM

That GI is standing awfully close to the smoke. Don't look like he's wearing any kind of mask either... :lol:

My God!

Dave - 8-24-2007 at 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Minnow
That is not that much. In May they caught my neighbor in Cantu with 14,000 lbs in his garage.

Do you realize that's almost 6,350.2922 kilos?

Roberto - 8-24-2007 at 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Minnow
That is not that much. In May they caught my neighbor in Cantu with 14,000 lbs in his garage. He said his son let some friends put it there and he didn't know about it. :?:

Seven TONS. You'd think he would have noticed the large trucks pulling up to unload. :lol:

Minnow - 8-24-2007 at 05:33 PM

Word is that they brought it in by pick up from Arbolitos. Seems one of the drivers didn't get paid and blew the whistle. They just got the minions. The Jefe's are still in business. :lol:

woody with a view - 8-24-2007 at 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Minnow
Word is that they brought it in by pick up from Arbolitos. Seems one of the drivers didn't get paid and blew the whistle. They just got the minions. The Jefe's are still in business. :lol:

same as it ever was..........

bacquito - 8-24-2007 at 06:02 PM

Good for the officials!!

shari - 8-24-2007 at 06:02 PM

I always thought it was kinda funny that in Guerrero Negro when Sirenita was in primary school they loaded all the little kids into a big bus and took em out to the military base to watch the huge bonfire when they burn all the pot! The kids love that field trip but come back a little bleary eyed and to ward off the munchies, they fed all the kids in the cafeteria! They didn't even ask the parents or anything, she just came home from school one day smelling of pot (not that I would know what it smells like) and told me about the fun trip they had that afternoon.....gotta love baja

La marijuana

Loretana - 8-24-2007 at 06:10 PM

Excuse me, but 14,000 pounds of weed (even if it was sinsemilla) would not fit in a "garage".

You would need a rather large bodega to store that much.

And, yes, I know from experience. :saint:

DENNIS - 8-24-2007 at 06:15 PM

Arbolitos is and has been a landing spot for drugs and Chinese restaurant cooks. It's been going on for years.

So, let's see here.......The area, Arbolitos, is a chronic landing spot. The police know this. The military knows this. The area is less than a mile wide. It continues to be a hot area and the authorities continue to apply surveillance to the area.
Are we supposed to be impressed?
I can't wait to see how impressive these interdictors will be after the United States adds 3/4 of a billion dollars to the Mexican bankroll in our effort to fight the enemy.
It won't be enough.

P-nche criminales!

woody with a view - 8-24-2007 at 07:08 PM

i mean, the ones in the position to "know" better. why can't we humans do what is in the best interest of all?

WHERE'S THE FENCE? :fire:

DENNIS - 8-24-2007 at 07:21 PM

For sure..........Where is it?

BajaBruno - 8-24-2007 at 09:10 PM

The most efficient way of eliminating this "crime" of catering to America's appetite for intoxicants is simply to de-criminalize it, just as we have for alcohol.

No fence will curb the appetite, and it's certainly not the businessman's fault for supplying the U.S. demand.

Marijuana is not my intoxicant of choice, but I have a hard time passing judgment on those who prefer it--I'm pretty well convinced that it is no more harmful than the Scotch that I do prefer; and what if it was? Is it my business what those people do in the privacy of their homes? There are already laws on the books to prevent people from driving under the influence of any intoxicants, and I've seen hundreds more people get into social trouble on alcohol than on marijuana, which seems to make people less agressive, rather than more.

Sharksbaja - 8-24-2007 at 10:57 PM

Ya know...........once in a while someone makes complete sense! :tumble:

Gnome-ad - 8-24-2007 at 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja
Ya know...........once in a while someone makes complete sense! :tumble:

I second that! :yes:

~ Gnome-ad

Minnow - 8-25-2007 at 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Loretana
Excuse me, but 14,000 pounds of weed (even if it was sinsemilla) would not fit in a "garage".

You would need a rather large bodega to store that much.

And, yes, I know from experience. :saint:

Those are the numbers the newspaper put out. You didn't think I went and weighed it myself did you. It is a large garage. :lol:

Skeet/Loreto - 8-25-2007 at 06:47 AM

Good Words Bruno; But---- What about the Cost after it is Legalized!
Lung Problems
Accidents while Driving and all those other Costs associated with the Use?
Skeet/Loreto

Minnow - 8-25-2007 at 07:47 AM

The Hells Angels used to keep the recipe a closely guarded secret. The secret is now out. Now, it is cheaper than Coke, lasts much longer, and if you are so inclined you can make it yourself. They are trying to make it harder to obtain the psudo ephedrine that you need to make it, at least here in the US. In Mexico enforcement is much harder and the chemicals needed are much easier to come by. We all know it is nothing to get contraband across the border, but Mexico is also having their own problems with it now because of all the things I mentioned above.

backninedan - 8-25-2007 at 07:50 AM

14,000 pounds? sounds like it's just personal stash..

BajaBruno - 8-25-2007 at 10:04 AM

Minnow is correct that the Hells Angels controlled illicit methamphetamine production for many years, until fairly recently. The motto was, "If you cook meth, you cook it for the Angels, or you don't cook any more." I once looked through the wallet of a fellow who had a very ornate and professionally produced laminated card that read, "Hell's Angels Certified Crank Cooker." That was good for a giggle.

So yes, now with everyone from the organized Mexican groups to the local crank-head cooking the stuff the price has gone down and the availability up, and the guy looking for a cheap high will usually take what's available. It is, of course, fairly addictive, so consumption will resemble an inverted pyramid as more users are brought on-line.

But, the thought that this was never a common drug is misleading, in my opinion. Amphetamines have been around a long time and doctors in the 50’s and 60’s prescribed tons of them under the trade names Benzedrine, Benzedrex, Dexedrine, and Dextrostat, for everything from weight loss, narcolepsy, attention disorders, depression, and just as a general “pick-me-up.” I think the Stones song “Mother’s Little Helper” had these drugs in mind, probably combined with a barbituate, which was marketed as Dexamyl. They were available on the street as Bennies and with stacks of little white tabs rolled in foil, but I don’t remember what they were called. Truckers probably still use them today.

All of these drugs (except Dexamyl) are just legalized methamphetamine, and many doctors still prescribe them today.

toneart - 8-25-2007 at 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gnome-ad

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja
Ya know...........once in a while someone makes complete sense! :tumble:

I second that! :yes:

~ Gnome-ad

I third that!

A lot of ignorance surrounds the wafts of weed. A lot of it is engendered by attitudes of intolerance; reactionary, political and moralistic peer group rhetoric. It is a happy (organic) drug. Those who smoke it are generally non-agressive. While it is debatable as to whether it is addictive or not, it in and of itself is harmless. It is an absolute fallacy that it is a gateway to other drugs. The harm surrounding it is that the criminalization of Marijuana creates a criminal class of purveyors, whose defense of their territories breeds violence.

My point is that government resources are wasted and misdirected, drawing focus and action away from the real public enemy drugs like Meth. It is immediately and highly addictive. It causes everyone in its grip to put the cravings (both physiololgical and psychological), above family, work and anything they once deemed important. Its users resort to crime to support their habit. Thievery is an easy avenue for them to get items they can convert into money to buy more. As others have stated here in this string, it is easy to produce, but not without risk to themselves, everyone around them and the environment. For most, because it is readily available on the street, it is easier to buy it. Meth users go for days without sleep. They become dellusionary, paranoid and violent. They become a burden on our communities, our tax dollars and our law enforcement agencies.

I don't smoke Mary Jane anymore because there are too many things I want to get done in a day. As I have entered my senior years, there is more and more I want to accomplish. M.J. is not really conducive to being productive, for me. If you don't have much ambition, it is a great (altered) state to be in. That is not a value judgement. I have learned from experience what works, or doesn't work for me. :cool:

It is a good thing that people here can debate such an important subject. Doubters have a chance to learn something if they have an open mind. But experience is the best teacher. (better than anything I can say here). If you really want to learn the truth, go out and roll one of your own! :bounce:

Minnow - 8-25-2007 at 12:10 PM

Tone and Bruno, I agree with both of your well thought out posts.

To add one more thing on the meth problem. The preferred way of ingesting it now is to smoke it. This was not done in the past. That makes the addiction much quicker and the cravings that much greater.

Am I the only one who has a craving for ice cream

The Gull - 8-25-2007 at 12:26 PM

after reading this post?

bajajudy - 8-25-2007 at 12:30 PM

Gull
And maybe a cheeseburger and fires.

toneart - 8-25-2007 at 12:36 PM

Jeez, Gull....along with your own admission, you are exposing me as well. Haagendaz is my drug of choice. :bounce:

...It's got to be pure vanilla or pure chocolate. Don't make me steal for it! :no:

Sharksbaja - 8-25-2007 at 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajajudy
Gull
And maybe a cheeseburger and fires.

Judy what are YOU smokin'?

Debra - 8-25-2007 at 12:44 PM

Hitler's wackos use Meth. What do you think made them so mean?!

We have a HUGE Meth. problem near where I live, and the idiots have started shooting it! I wish they would all blow themselve up! (sound harsh? I DON'T CARE!) ,I have personal friends that had their lives destroyed by that crap (of course they are no longer friends, they are either too wacked out, or in jail, one is dead) Give me a pot smoker anytime. The only problem I have with pot is that it is illegal, I say legallize it ane tax it just like booze or cigs. I suspect it's much less harful.

Cypress - 8-25-2007 at 01:16 PM

Most of the pot-smokers I know are passive and no threat to anybody. :bounce:

Live and let live.Have known some drinkers that will introduce you into a "world of hurt". :yes:

bajajudy - 8-25-2007 at 02:54 PM

Sharks, today is the 40th birthday of the Big Mac....

Skeet/Loreto - 8-25-2007 at 03:18 PM

Thanks to All! This a very informative Thread.
Question: What does anyone know about "Cheese" whcih is rampant in the Teenagers- Cheap and easily made?

Being an ex-Police Officer /Investigator i often wonder if todays Culture is developing more Fear into our People-Result escaping Reality.
Not too many years ago, Drunks and Pot Smokers were "Shunned" by many of their Peers, now it is more Accepted.
I have been Drunk 3 times in my Life, smoked Pot 2 Times -It made my Peacker Limp!
I got my Highs walking and Fishing the Hi Sierras, Jumping out of Airplanes/ Flying Airpalnes and Dancin with all the Pretty Ladies{sometimes taking the Home for a "Roll in the Hay"
I consider myself very Lucky.

Sleet/Loreto

BajaBruno - 8-25-2007 at 04:59 PM

Good article, Lencho. One might quibble with his chemistry, or some minor facts, but that's not important. The bigger point on rehab is relevant and he presents it well.

My point is that after all the attempts to legislate ourselves out of this problem, the problem remains. Each new law is more harsh, more draconian, has more money attached to it, and is trumpeted as the final solution to the problem. None of them have worked and I can guarantee that none of them in the future will.

Dogmatic impositions of one person’s conscience on another person never work. We have lots of examples of our failure to prevent (what one group perceives as) vice by locking people up, fining them, embarrassing them, or other legislative options. Big blocks of people don’t respond to that approach, and we shouldn’t need Viet Nam, Prohibition, Iraq, or Somalia to figure that out, but I guess we do.

No, there is only one effective way to “solve” the meth problem. That is simply to legalize a cheaper, hopefully safer, and more attractive drug. Users will leave meth when they have a better option to fill that need, and not before. In the meantime, taxes to keep them in jail and insurance to protect our property from them will just keep going up.

The U.S. can be smart, or it can continue to be dogmatic. Smart, however, has never been politically expedient.

The Gull - 8-25-2007 at 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajajudy
Gull
And maybe a cheeseburger and fires.

yes, and a thick strawberry shake and macaroons and potato chips and...

The Gull - 8-25-2007 at 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto

smoked Pot 2 Times -It made my Peacker Limp!

You did it wrong.

The Gull - 8-25-2007 at 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
Jeez, Gull....along with your own admission, you are exposing me as well. Haagendaz is my drug of choice. :bounce:

...It's got to be pure vanilla or pure chocolate. Don't make me steal for it! :no:

Check out Moose Tracks. It's got fudge and peanut butter cups in it. OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

La vida mota

Lee - 8-25-2007 at 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBruno
The most efficient way of eliminating this "crime" of catering to America's appetite for intoxicants is simply to de-criminalize it, just as we have for alcohol.

Yeah. Legalize it.

The only quality pot I'm aware of in Baja is brought in by gringos. MX use to have good pot -- Oaxacan, Michoacán -- anybody remember Acapulco Gold? Panama Red?

MX is interested in quantity not quality. The best is grown between California and Canada. Hydroponic is grown anywhere. At least that's what I'm told.

Who the heck buys MX schwag?

I smoked once -- couldn't exhale.

:cool:

woody with a view - 8-25-2007 at 08:06 PM

Quote:

Check out Moose Tracks. It's got fudge and peanut butter cups in it. OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

yea-ah!!!! almost as good as sex!

roundtuit - 8-25-2007 at 08:06 PM

Yea remember it, now its Pacifico and petzels :lol:

The Gull - 8-26-2007 at 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob

Quote:

Check out Moose Tracks. It's got fudge and peanut butter cups in it. OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

yea-ah!!!! almost as good as sex!

Easy on the comparisons, Woody. :lol:

Would he or Woody

Sharksbaja - 8-26-2007 at 01:04 PM

That is the real question!. :lol:

"Woody" as in car or "Woody" as in.............. "Woody"?

woody with a view - 8-26-2007 at 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja
That is the real question!. :lol:

"Woody" as in car or "Woody" as in.............. "Woody"?

CaboRon - 9-7-2007 at 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
I always thought it was kinda funny that in Guerrero Negro when Sirenita was in primary school they loaded all the little kids into a big bus and took em out to the military base to watch the huge bonfire when they burn all the pot! The kids love that field trip but come back a little bleary eyed and to ward off the munchies, they fed all the kids in the cafeteria! They didn't even ask the parents or anything, she just came home from school one day smelling of pot (not that I would know what it smells like) and told me about the fun trip they had that afternoon.....gotta love baja

CaboRon - 9-7-2007 at 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBruno
The most efficient way of eliminating this "crime" of catering to America's appetite for intoxicants is simply to de-criminalize it, just as we have for alcohol.

No fence will curb the appetite, and it's certainly not the businessman's fault for supplying the U.S. demand.

Marijuana is not my intoxicant of choice, but I have a hard time passing judgment on those who prefer it--I'm pretty well convinced that it is no more harmful than the Scotch that I do prefer; and what if it was? Is it my business what those people do in the privacy of their homes? There are already laws on the books to prevent people from driving under the influence of any intoxicants, and I've seen hundreds more people get into social trouble on alcohol than on marijuana, which seems to make people less agressive, rather than more.

Bruno,

I totally agree !!!!!

CaboRon

Diver - 9-7-2007 at 06:44 AM

I've been procrastinating about chiming in.
Now what was it I wanted to say ??
I'll think of it ...... hmmm....

But yes, Bruno; I have to agree !!

.

oldlady - 9-7-2007 at 06:54 AM

and from another persepctive.....
Public Schools washed my brain...films....2 or 3 "joints" and you were gonna be injecting "horse" and then od.
For decades I was vehemently against drugs.

Fast forward to 2001. Sumpin' doesn't feel right. Big C, advanced. You gotta a chance they say...chemo....scared poopless....can't stand to be nauseaous (No gulping here, I'm fine)

By now I have an aging boy toy type husband who, while I was slaving at a corprate career, was making a name for himself playing Volleyball in Southern California and doing
God knows what. Go for it he says, I'll keep you loaded the whole time.

I'm lucky. I got great insurance. I get anti nausea pill...$50usd a pill...I pay $2. They help. Have met people who can't afford them. Boy toy rolls joints for me...where did he get the stuff? How did he know how to do that so expertly?

Ahhhhh..no nausea, no anxiety...surprise!....functional.....work in garden....work on internet...keep house clean...not drugged out. Ate all the time. Doc thrilled with my appetitite and resulting blood count. One happy, some would say stoned, year. Have never craved it. Not then, not now.

You make friends in the chemo lounge. Trade therapy stories. Most of the users I met had similar results. I hear the prescription stuff isn't as effective. Oh...told my doc...strait laced, anal retentive type...gave me a stern look and said...in this practice, whatever works.

Just legalize it. The world will go to hell in a handbasket from a whole lot of other things before marijuana will be the cause.

No sympathy comments...however many years any of us have left....1 in Baja is worth 5 in most other places.

Mexitron - 9-7-2007 at 07:36 AM

Interesting that pot was criminalized basically because of the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937 which was abetted by Randolph Hearst and his timber industry financial connections, in order to squelch the competing hemp industry for making wood pulp(for newspaper); heh, they killed two birds with one stone(r)-- the Marijuana used for hemp is a different subspecies than the one grown for recreational use.

Gnome-ad - 9-7-2007 at 11:36 AM

DuPont and Nylon
Hearst and trees
Pot's illegal
Because of these

by Gnome-ad

Yes, Mexitron ... add to that that DuPont wanted nylon to be the rope of the future. The fear factor was then used to wash people's brains ("Reefer Madness" etc.). Using fear and untruth to control people is nothing new. Those two rich guys had the power to do it then, just like the rich powerful ba$#@%d$ today do it. :mad:

We don’t have TV, but I heard from a friend that there were "big busts" in the Los Cabos area the last few days. Not farms, but farmacias, fruit stands, etc. Why don't they go after the bad guys who distribute heroine and meth??? Think pot smokers are easier to harass than folks who are really jacked up and have automatic weapons, money for bribes, etc. and it makes such a better show … :barf:

During a conversation with friends last night someone said that the “drug war” is how the powers that be get control of the drugs so THEY can sell them and make the money and control people. Viet Nam, Cambodia, Columbia, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, it just moves around like the pea under the walnut shell and we’re all fooled. This makes some sense to me. :wow:

On another note, my granny used to grow some form of it as a backdrop for her roses, my uncle who had served in Turkey during WWI was glad of that! Then it became a "crime" to grow it. Wow, my sweet grandma was a CRIMINAL!! Somehow I don't think so ... :no:

[Edited on 9-7-2007 by Gnome-ad]

Mexitron - 9-7-2007 at 12:10 PM

Gnome-ad, I've also heard of the idea that our gov't, CIA, has its hands in the drug trade as a source of cash so as to keep covert activity off the books...I think GB Sr. was quoted as saying that if the US public knew what was really happening out there they'd be horrified...

Gnome-ad - 9-7-2007 at 12:24 PM

Ahhh ... yes, Mexitron I had heard that, too, just hadn't thought about it in a while.

We are such babes, guess the daddies who know best keep us in the dark to protect us from being "horrified" at what our government ("by, for and of us") is actually doing (to us and everyone else).

Martyman - 9-7-2007 at 03:52 PM

Do you think the best way to get it down to baja is fill a film cannister and bury it in a full jar of peanut butter? Actually the military stops never check you on the way down.

Gnome-ad - 9-7-2007 at 05:25 PM

:?:

Gee Martyman ~ I wouldn't know about that, but on my way down last February with Amir's cousin (another gringa) we were stopped at every checkpoint on the way down plus secondary at the border (maybe we looked like someone else?) and questioned and asked to open up different areas of the car ... the only exception was outside Loretto where I had foolishly almost run out of gas. Those guys didn't check anything because they eventually had to sell us some gas to get the two wacky gringas back on the road. Guess they figured we were too stoopid to be pulling any fast ones.

I would not want to be caught with anything illegal at any checkpoint anywhere.

Interestingly, I do always now bring peanutbutter down in supply because the stuff that we can get down here is nasty with chemicals and sugar. We like ours organic and lightly salted. Hope they don't go diggin through it and ruin it for late night snaks on crackers or toast. :no:

Bajafun777 - 9-8-2007 at 01:02 PM

Now, the problem with making marijuana legal is the drug world has promoted this little bridge to the other drugs such as meth. Don't tell me that it does not ruin families or "blunt" kids to even getting their butts up for school. Even if you legalize it the little bridge will always be there as it has been too many years in the making. Yea, Yea, Yea I also know professionals and others that have used or started with marijuana and not loss it to other stronger drugs. I have also seen just the opposite with these professionals and others. However, with the high risk kids and troubled adults the real story is their worlds have become nothing more than drug misery. I do not know the answer either (wish I did for all of the ruined lives I seen) or I would have written a book pinpointing how to solve this misery for many. However, I do know legalizing marijuana or other drugs will only get us on the road to Hell a lot quicker. England created a damn mess for itself over this legalizing drug use issue and now is trying to recover from it. Our marijuana laws have already basically been made to be "don't tell or be seen and we will just look the other way or give a little public fine." The drug culture and drug habits are only a losing road that helps nobody get ahead or a real lasting future. Have spent over 34 years helping kids, families, and troubled adults and know legalization of any type of drug is not the solution. Drugs have been and will be their main problem for most of their life. Now, I will get off my "Soap Box" and go back to reading the forum postings.

BajaBruno - 9-8-2007 at 01:28 PM

Well, Fun777, as a deputy district attorney friend of mine once said, "When you can get any drug you want in any bar in America, drugs become de facto legal." Why would we think legalizing drugs will make them more available? Anyone can get any drug they please, within hours, anywhere in the US. All we accomplish by keeping them illegal is to ruin more lives by putting those users in jail. Jails and prisons have needlessly ruined just as many lives as drugs ever have.

The arguments you are using are the same ones used to pass the Eighteenth Amendment (Prohibition) and we all know the result of that disastrous experiment.

If we start acting smart, repeal the drug laws, and dedicate those billions of dollars from our failed Drug War to prevention and treatment, we'd all be a lot better off.

That's not just my opinion--eminent criminologists have been saying it for decades.

Gnome-ad - 9-8-2007 at 01:43 PM

Bajafun777

I have not spent years helping families as you have - I salute your efforts to help those in trouble. I do, however, feel that the pusher who wants to really hook someone is usually the one who encourages them to cross that "bridge" you refer to. Legalize and you remove the pusher from the scene. The pusher pushes for financial reasons, not just for the joy of making new friends.

And it seems some people just have addictive personalities or behaviors, for whatever reasons, whether the drug is legal or not and will end up in trouble of some kind no matter what. Tobacco, alcohol, and sugar are deceptively legal and mostly socially acceptable and cause many health and social problems (yes, even sweet, sweet sugar - if you’ve ever dealt with someone with a real sugar problem it’s no picnic).

In MHO, I say LEGALIZE and EDUCATE in real terms, with the real dangers and/or benefits of all substances being addressed, not just made up scare tactics to line the pockets of the powers that be and criminalize otherwise regular members of society. When people try something and figure out they’ve been lied to about it they may figure they’ve been lied to about everything and that is not necessarily true. They then do not have the good sense God gave a turnip about what to “try” and what not to try and how it will impact their lives. They don’t even have a DO NOT DO THIS list. And, yes, using recreational mood/mind/chemistry altering substances before a psyche is mature enough to understand them can lead to serious deficits, addictions and difficulties that can persist for a lifetime. Again EDUCATE, EDUCATE, EDUCATE - BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!

de acuerdo

sylens - 9-8-2007 at 03:05 PM

gnome-ad

Mexitron - 9-8-2007 at 03:25 PM

You got it right Gnome-ad!

Skeet/Loreto - 9-8-2007 at 04:07 PM

Bruno:
Is it my responsibility to pay for "Prevention and Treatment" for those who cannot "Control their Desires and keep their Passions within due Bounds"?

Skeet/Loreto

Social vs. spiritual

Lee - 9-8-2007 at 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBruno
If we start acting smart, repeal the drug laws, and dedicate those billions of dollars from our failed Drug War to prevention and treatment, we'd all be a lot better off.

That's not just my opinion--eminent criminologists have been saying it for decades.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Bruno:
Is it my responsibility to pay for "Prevention and Treatment" for those who cannot "Control their Desires and keep their Passions within due Bounds"?

Skeet/Loreto

Skeet -- I'm adding my dos centavos.

Socially, it depends on your politics as to whether you feel it is your responsibility to pay.....

Morally, you have an absolute responsibility to take care of those in need. If you aren't Christian, disregard this comment. If you are, then you must ask "Who would Jesus pay for?

Your call.

:cool:

amir - 9-8-2007 at 06:19 PM

Humans have been getting intoxicated with something or other since the beginning of civilizations. It is just human nature to try to alter the mind to experience the depth of our possibilities.

The list of mind-altering substances is very long, actually, anything can be abused to the point of causing harm, to oneself and to society. Trying to legislate human nature and morality has never worked, and never will.

The current "war on drugs" is NOT a failed policy. It has worked wonderfully for the government to justify the outrageous tax expenditures and spending trillions of dollars in activities that only benefits the fascist-military complex. Yes, "we" are wasting this money, but somebody is profiting from it, that money is going into somebody's pockets. Whose? Into the pockets of those who want to control the traffic of all "drugs."

To make natural substances illegal, and to criminalize large segments of society for "normal" human behavior is just a plot by the powers that be to control the financial benefits of addictions. I think we would all be better off if we criminalized WAR and eliminated the profit motive created by limiting the supply of any substance by creating artificial shortages. The war on drugs is a profitable business matched only by the profits of drug cartels; they each need the other in order to survive and make obscene profits.

In my opinion, the harm done to the health of humanity by the chemical additives in processed food far surpasses the damage done by inhaling weed smoke. The harm done to the health of the world by the poisons and toxins spewed into the environment by big business far exceeds any harm done by hapless addicts. The death, destruction and misery created by organized religion throughout the ages has been far more devastating than any substance abuse.

Don’t even get me started…

-- Amir

BajaBruno - 9-8-2007 at 06:36 PM

I think the question of "who is to pay" has been aptly answered by Lencho and Lee, but to me it is all just a question of economics.

The pitifully unsuccessful "Drug War" has cost us billions of dollars, many lives to fight it, including those close to me, and has absolutely nothing to show for it. Illicit drugs are available to anyone. Anyone who has had children knows that telling people they can’t do something that’s fun is bound to fail. They will do it just as a knee-jerk reaction to being told they can’t. Only societal pressure can affect that conduct and laws against it are counterproductive. Alcohol consumption just before Prohibition was at its lowest level in the history of the country because of strong societal pressure—during Prohibition, it spiked to the highest level it has ever been, precisely because it was now daring and adventurous.

The question now is, “Do we acknowledge that a fight against human nature is doomed?” and reallocate those War dollars to education, prevention, and treatment, or do we continue with a failed policy? Education, prevention, and treatment is almost sure to pay for itself in reduced property insurance costs, reduced prison costs, and reduced “War” costs.

The answer, I am almost sure, is that we will continue to pursue a failed policy, because too many people are making too much money fighting “The War.” Prison guard unions contribute huge sums to politicians to encourage longer prison sentences, and therefore more prisons and guards; politicians themselves find it easy to attack a constituency that votes very poorly and has no lobbying strength; judges, prosecutors, drug enforcement agents, and all their supporting staff that depend on drug prosecutions really don’t want to be cross-trained into another field; and a vast and well-funded propaganda campaign has keep up the pressure on Americans to “keep up the fight,” never mentioning the fruitlessness or the lives ruined by “The War.”

I am not optimistic that the battle against the war will be won, but that doesn’t mean that I release the dream.

Skeet/Loreto - 9-9-2007 at 07:29 AM

Very good and informative "Words, if and Buts"/

Question: As a Human, then I must make the decision to "Protect" my self from being Murdered by a Drunk Driver or Drug Crazed other Human??

Yet when I carry a weapon for protection, I must make very sure that the other Human is going to Kill me before I can "Legally" fire my weapon.

Does not the answer lie in "The Survival of the Fitist" as it stands to reason that those who are Drugged are not the "Fitist" for Survival?

How many of you Posters have ever had the experience of being placed in a Bamboo Cage, then poked at with sharpened Stocks, had Fecas thrown all over you, Urinated on by another Human{?}.
If that happened would you try to Fight or just lay there and take the Abuse??

Better to fight to Death!!

Bajabus - 9-9-2007 at 09:56 AM

here is a good thread we had on this very subject back in 2002. it's a good read of an exchange mostly between me and Dave with a few others chiming in.

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=172&page=...

amir - 9-9-2007 at 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
How many of you Posters have ever had the experience of being placed in a Bamboo Cage, then poked at with sharpened Stocks, had Fecas thrown all over you, Urinated on by another Human{?}.

Did that happen to you, Skeet?
If yes, then now I understand your tormented mind.
May PEACE be with you now.

toneart - 9-9-2007 at 10:17 AM

Quote:

Yes!

For all the reasons that have been so eloquently expressed in this string.

Skeet/Loreto - 9-9-2007 at 10:56 AM

No, I do not have a Tormented Mind;
As a Criminaogist, with a degree in 1958, I was taught that we should all produce for ourselves and another 1 and a Half for those in need.
I also did time{Study at the following Places:
San Quintin
Soladad
Chino
Carson City
Folsom
Huntsville

During those studies I figured out that there are some Human beings that do not have the ability to control their Destiny, that some{ about 20% do have that Ability,
Bruno for you to say that Jails are a Failure, leaves me to wonder: How do we keep those Criminals and especially the Drugged ones from Killing more of the law abiding Citizens???.

Would it not be better to teach the Children of today to Fight instead of Run and Hide.
Bruno I had the occasion to have my Weapon c-cked and ready to shoot a Drugged/Drunk standing with a c-cked Shotgun, He finally lowered his weapon and was sent off to Jail, released, got Drunk/Drugged and killed a Family of 5.
The Jail did not do the Job unless they had kept him for Life.
I could have saved 5 Lives. and Money!
Money is not the Answer, it is Faith and Hope and Effort,.
Skeet/Loreto

Bajabus - 9-9-2007 at 11:18 AM

Of the 1,846,351 people incarcerated in 2005 for drug violations, 37.7% of those were arrested for marijuana possession alone. That's 696,075 people.

The subsidized cost of a college education at Harvard is about $45,000

the cost to incarcerate an individual is approx $60,000.

So we spend about $41,764,459,620.00 per year to put in jail folks arrested for mere possession of marijuana.

This does not make sense to me.

Jail is not the answer.

[Edited on 9-9-2007 by Bajabus]

Phil S - 9-9-2007 at 11:38 AM

How many of you that advocate legalizing marijuana, have had a son or daughter enter the drug scene & disappear from life to resurface as a "lost soal"? If you haven't had a 'loved one' taken away from you this way, then I would hope and pray that it 'never happen to you'!!!!!!! Their life is 'screwed' and your life is altered for the rest of your life. And I can speak first hand about that. How about you???????? Legalize drugs???? I don't think sooooooooooo. No I don't have an answer, and that is what has made my life so miserable for me and my wife. Learning to accept that which is not in your control, and move on with YOUR life has been one of the hardest experiences I've ever encountered. I'm not totally there yet, and don't know if I ever will be. Maybe global warming will eventually destroy the plants & that will end our problem!!! (t.i.c.)

bajalou - 9-9-2007 at 11:48 AM

I have much of the experiences you speak of Phil S, but alcohol caused more destruction in their and my lives than all the other drugs they abused. And my belief is that legalizing and taxing would do more to reduce the devastation to this country than all the dollars wasted on prohibition and attempts to control.

Bajabus - 9-9-2007 at 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phil S
How many of you that advocate legalizing marijuana, have had a son or daughter enter the drug scene & disappear from life to resurface as a "lost soal"? If you haven't had a 'loved one' taken away from you this way, then I would hope and pray that it 'never happen to you'!!!!!!! Their life is 'screwed' and your life is altered for the rest of your life. And I can speak first hand about that. How about you???????? Legalize drugs???? I don't think sooooooooooo. No I don't have an answer, and that is what has made my life so miserable for me and my wife. Learning to accept that which is not in your control, and move on with YOUR life has been one of the hardest experiences I've ever encountered. I'm not totally there yet, and don't know if I ever will be. Maybe global warming will eventually destroy the plants & that will end our problem!!! (t.i.c.)

Phil that is a truly heart wrenching tragedy and my sympathy goes out to you and your family.

As part of your sons experience did he ever spend time in Jail?

bajalou - 9-9-2007 at 12:29 PM

I would hope you take any details - jail, accidents, death - off of the forum - do it 1 on 1 if you want but don't post it here.

toneart - 9-9-2007 at 12:50 PM

Quote:

Phil,
The destruction of a loved one's life by drug addiction is a tragedy. I'm sorry that this string has conjured up a truly sad emotion.

What we are talking about here is Marijuana. The myth that Marijuana is a stepping stone to hard drug addiction is like the mythical premise Bush used to invade Iraq: "Saddam possesses weapons of mass destruction," changed to: "because they attacked us on 9/11," changed to: "we have to fight the enemy there so they don't follow us here. "

Now I don't know what your politics are and you don't have to reveal your personal idiology or defend it, because your grief is what drives your opinion. You are entitled to that.

My point is, that politics is the usual driver of such mythical opinions. If one subscribes to the right wing myths about the reasons why we are in Iraq, the same mind set follows with the myths about Marijuana; the need to make it illegal and the need to include it in the "War on Drugs". The consequence is that it squanders precious resources and lives by shooting or incarceration.

If one can examine and separate out myth from reality, they can still hold onto their idiology and yet not buy into the total rhetorical package. One's idiology is formed by personal experience, from childhood well into adulthood. The hard work is examining where you stand on each issue by using introspection, calling on your experience and then applying your brains, heart and soul. If you do that, your vision for what you want for this world, and yourself, is just that: Yours!...that is your truth and your right or wrong.

Everyone please notice that this whole string has been a pretty civil debate. I hope my posts have contributed in this spirit. Naturally I would wish to change some minds. Everybody would like to sway another's opinions. But I certainly don't require agreement.. What I do hope to promote is understanding of one's opinions and how they arrived at those opinions. :light:

Bajabus - 9-9-2007 at 12:52 PM

bajalou, you are right. Forget that question....it's not appropriate and I apologize for asking.

I guess the point I am trying to get around to is that if it were my son I would prefer that the 41 billion dollars used yearly to incarcerate non violent marijuana possession offenders were shifted to education, prevention and rehabilitation and that the drug be legalized.

Cypress - 9-9-2007 at 12:56 PM

Jeez!

Everybody has their drug of choice.

Some people get off on this and some people get off on that, some of it's legal, some of it's not, it might not be organic, solid, liquid, or anything on the list.

We're all addicted to something.

Skeet/Loreto - 9-9-2007 at 01:42 PM

Here Goes:

What is it about Smoking Dope?
What does it do for you as compared to getting a High from say, jumping out of an Airplane at 10,000 Ft.

Or getting a High from watching a Beautiful Sunrise, or solveing a difficult problem???

Why does a Person "Need a High"' Are they missing something in their Brain or Heart, are they escaping the Pain of Life?, Scared, trying to Copy another person? Could it be a "Weakness Gene"?

Skeet

For those who are blaming

backninedan - 9-9-2007 at 01:46 PM

Skeet do you drink at all? beer, and occasional mixed drink? If so, how can you justify your last post? If not, I withdraw my question.

BajaBruno - 9-9-2007 at 02:08 PM

I’m glad you’re here Skeet—I needed something to keep me occupied today.

Academic criminologists and sociologists rely heavily on the Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics, produced by the Bureau of Justice Statistics. This post will be heavy on statistics, but it’s my curse, so jump to the fishing report if you’re not up to it today!

I don’t recall saying that jails were a failure per se, but they certainly don’t seem to have done much to solve the perceived drug problem. But, let’s look first to see if there really is a definable illicit drug problem versus a lawful alcohol problem, personal tragedies aside (and I only sideline them temporarily).

The Percent of jail inmates reporting alcohol use at the time of their offense declined from 41% in 1996 to 35% in 2002, a decline of about 15% during that time. The decline among violent offenders was less pronounced at only 7%.

Jail inmates reporting any drug use at the time of offense declined during the same period from 35% to 29%, or a change of 17%. The largest drop was in the marijuana/cocaine/crack categories. There is no subcategory for violent offenders.

These two stats can overlap, of course, as some offenders may have used both alcohol and drugs, and the drug stats do not weed out those who were arrested simply for being under the influence or in possession of drugs, which could slant the figures dramatically.

However, I think we can say that there is a nexus between intoxicants and crime, though it is stronger with alcohol use than drug use. So, how are we dealing with the problem? Well, we aren’t treating many of them while they are young and prior to arrest.

In 1998 there were 100,000 kids in drug treatment facilities. That number has steadily declined to 88,000 in 2005, a 13% decline.

But, we are putting a lot of them in jail.

In 2002, the highest crime of 12% of all jail inmates was simple possession of non-trafficking quantities of drugs. Another 9% were in for trafficking quantities of drugs. The totals are the same as for all violent offenders combined. 25% vs 25%.

Ok, we have them in jail, what are we doing with them in there? Using the anecdotal episode Skeet described, I don’t think we have to all be psychiatrists to figure out that that guy needed mental health intervention. Drugs alone don’t cause someone to kill five people, or our country would be empty right now. We have already seen that violent offenders and non-violent drug offenders account for 50% of the incarcerated population. So, how many are receiving mental health therapy or counseling?

Nationwide, only 14%, combining 24-hour care and therapy & counseling as of year 2000, and the numbers vary widely from a high of 38% in Wyoming to a low of 6% in South Carolina.

So, the prisons are bulging at the seams (from 96 per 100k US population in 1973, to 491 per 100k US population in 2005), and we aren’t treating those who need help, inside or outside the prison walls, do the citizens feel safer now? Ahhh, not really.

In 1972, 51% of Citizens said they felt there was more crime in their own area than the year before. In 2006? Yep, also 51% said the same thing. Do citizens thinkt he drug war has been successful? In 1972 61% said they thought efforts against drugs had stood still or lost ground. In 2005, 66% though the same thing.

What about the money issue? Citizens were asked if we are spending enough to fight drug addiction (not incarceration, necessarily). In 1985, 62% thought we were not spending enough; in 2002 it was 57%. Is more enforcement the answer? Not according to the citizens. In 1989, 61% chose “attack social problems” over “more enforcement” as a solution to crime; in 2006, the level was 65% in favor of social programs.

Ok, we’ve spent all this money on jailing drug offenders and publicizing how bad it’s going to be for you if you get caught, what effect has this had on the availability of drugs? In 2003, 87% of high school seniors said it was “fairly easy” or “very easy” to obtain marijuana. 57% said the same about Ecstasy, and 55% about amphetamines. 45% of 8th graders said marijuana was easy to get, and 67% reported that alcohol was easy to get. Has the ballooning incarceration rate made kids fear drugs? Not exactly—actually, the opposite is true.

In the most impressionable group, high school seniors, the one that education should be targeting, attitudes toward drugs have relaxed considerably. In 1990, 68% of seniors disapproved of evening trying marijuana one or twice. By 2003, the rate was down to 53%. In 1990, 91% of seniors disapproved of smoking marijuana regularly, while in 2003 the rate was only 79%.

I could go on, but I imagine few have even gotten this far. I know it has been dense and wordy. I think it was Mark Twain who said there are “lies, damn lies, and statistics,” but these, I think speak for themselves. I’ll let the others judge them.

[Edited on 9-10-2007 by BajaBruno]

Skeet/Loreto - 9-9-2007 at 02:23 PM

Dan.
After a hard days work, on Occasion i shall have a "Two-Eyed Tequilla" or on Occasion I will have a "Texas Sux-Beer" brewed in Oklahoma!!

I enjoy the Taste

The other night a Doe gave birth to Twin Fawns outside of my Bedroom Window I got a High watching the giving of Life!

A few minutes past an Osprey was sailing over head. I got a High watching!

The other day I was at the Boys Ranch Rodeo watching 3 year old kids riding Muttons{Called Mutton Busting}.

I remember catching a 50Lb. Dorado at Carmen Island. What a High!

I remember the Good Sex I had last Night.

I remember the smile of the Pretty Lady, when I held the Door for her to enter a building.

Life is Great. Beauty is in the Eyes of the Holder-Not a Bottle or Smoke!

Comon Folks Live!!!

Skeet

CaboRon - 9-9-2007 at 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron
You got it right Gnome-ad!

Pot does not lead you to hard drugs.

Because it is illigal it leads you to the man.

And the man will introduce you to hard drugs.

Illegal also means it has a certain illicet charm,

Which is very enticing to young people.

Remember rebellion?

Pot is not a hard drug.

It is a benificial herb given to us by mother earth.

It does not have to be distilled or manufactured like

Alcohol or Meth.

It is not man made,

But God Given.

Om, Mani Padma, Hum

The Dewdrop Slips Into The Shining Sea.

- CaboRon

Cypress - 9-9-2007 at 02:40 PM

BajaBruno :tumble:

Skeet.

Facts usually trump feelings. :bounce:

Not gonna argue with facts, but feelings? What feels good to one might not feel good to another. :yes:

CaboRon - 9-9-2007 at 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
BajaBruno :tumble:

Skeet.

Facts usually trump feelings. :bounce:

Not gonna argue with facts, but feelings? What feels good to one might not feel good to another. :yes:

that's why youhave free will

do whatever you llike

The Darwin patrol

Dave - 9-9-2007 at 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajabus
if it were my son I would prefer that the 41 billion dollars used yearly to incarcerate non violent marijuana possession offenders were shifted to education, prevention and rehabilitation and that the drug be legalized.

Since people choose to use, why not make them pay the freight? And why would we need to spend 41 billion on education and prevention or rehab if we legalized? :rolleyes:

This debate is absurd. Only idiots get arrested for marijuana possession. You really have to be dumber than dirt. IMO, the police are doing society a favor.

Skeet/Loreto - 9-9-2007 at 02:49 PM

Caboron:
Yes "Do as you Feel" but remmber that in doing that you may do Harm to Others, therefore it is your responsibility to take care of the Damage to those that you have Harmed.

Be Wise, Thoughtful, Caring, Kind when Doing as you Feel!

Skeet

CaboRon - 9-9-2007 at 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Caboron:
Yes "Do as you Feel" but remmber that in doing that you may do Harm to Others, therefore it is your responsibility to take care of the Damage to those that you have Harmed.

Be Wise, Thoughtful, Caring, Kind when Doing as you Feel!

Skeet

Excuse Me.....But...........The major damage is done by those

using the Alcohol and by the incredably selfish cigarette

smokers who blythely polute the air we breathe with gross

inderference.

Are the cigeratte smokers doing anything to restore health

to their siblings, children and everyone within breathing

distance ?

NOT

Bajabus - 9-9-2007 at 03:00 PM

Bruno Thanks for your post.

When you really sit down and take a good hard look at the numbers, our present policy just does not add up.

What's the definition of doing the same thing over and over agin the same way and expecting different results?

Bajafun777 - 9-9-2007 at 05:21 PM

Ok, I got it we will legalize drugs and everything is going to be great and no more problems. All of our kids will be allowed to become drug dependent but since it's not illegal it will be alright. I am starting to wonder if maybe some of this thinking is just a puff away from another bad decision. Then if everyone one is stoned or under the influence like the song goes we just drop in to see what condition our condition is in. Sadly, it will be a society of decay and more hurting because of drug use being totally out of control. Think about it, if we have such a tough time keeping some sort of control now, where the hell would our Country be if we let drugs just totally drown our youth and citizens? I know it would be somewhere none of you or anyone else wanting a safe community would want to be. Again, I see and deal with drug addiction and crimes resulting from it to say it bad, real bad, and drugs can never be legal for use. If you think the bad guys simply go away just because you legalize something you really do not have a clue as to the street world out there. Later--bajafun777

CaboRon - 9-9-2007 at 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajafun777
Ok, I got it we will legalize drugs and everything is going to be great and no more problems. All of our kids will be allowed to become drug dependent but since it's not illegal it will be alright. I am starting to wonder if maybe some of this thinking is just a puff away from another bad decision. Then if everyone one is stoned or under the influence like the song goes we just drop in to see what condition our condition is in. Sadly, it will be a society of decay and more hurting because of drug use being totally out of control. Think about it, if we have such a tough time keeping some sort of control now, where the hell would our Country be if we let drugs just totally drown our youth and citizens? I know it would be somewhere none of you or anyone else wanting a safe community would want to be. Again, I see and deal with drug addiction and crimes resulting from it to say it bad, real bad, and drugs can never be legal for use. If you think the bad guys simply go away just because you legalize something you really do not have a clue as to the street world out there. Later--bajafun777

blah blah blah

Skeet/Loreto - 9-9-2007 at 05:25 PM

Bruno: I read your Post again.
It comes to me "What is the "Cause" ?

Being and Old Timer, I think of the 60"s, where the Hippies started and the "If it feels Good, Do it" thing started.
Then I go to the 1968 and the "Flower Children" Berkeley Era.
Then to the "Free Sex" and the "Selling of Sex and Drugs on the TV.
Then to the Breakdown of the Family unit, with Both Parents working.
Then the take over of the Educational System by the Govt. Unions, and Consulers.
The teaching of Fear and Dependence on the Govt.

Is the use of Drugs an escape from Fear??

Education, Intervention, Counseling and Jails have not worked.
How would Legalization change to make it work??

Skeet

CaboRon - 9-9-2007 at 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Bruno: I read your Post again.
It comes to me "What is the "Cause" ?

Being and Old Timer, I think of the 60"s, where the Hippies started and the "If it feels Good, Do it" thing started.
Then I go to the 1968 and the "Flower Children" Berkeley Era.
Then to the "Free Sex" and the "Selling of Sex and Drugs on the TV.
Then to the Breakdown of the Family unit, with Both Parents working.
Then the take over of the Educational System by the Govt. Unions, and Consulers.
The teaching of Fear and Dependence on the Govt.

Is the use of Drugs an escape from Fear??

Education, Intervention, Counseling and Jails have not worked.
How would Legalization change to make it work??

Skeet

Nothing will ever work.

DENNIS - 9-9-2007 at 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon

Nothing will ever work.

Good. That means this meaningless thread is dead. Good.

Gnome-ad - 9-9-2007 at 05:36 PM

While I wrote this there wer more posts and I feel a little out of the loop, but I'm going to post this anyway.

This has been an interesting thread with many thoughtful, informative as well as emotional posts. I agree with many of you, and I think you know who you are. I also think it’s good that we can have differing opinions, but express them pretty much without name calling. It would be nice if we were also not judgmental of others whose psyches work differently than ours. It might feel safer to some if everyone were “naturally high” without the use of anything besides bread and water, but it also might be a much more boring world lacking many of the great works of mankind. I believe that many amazing insights and creative processes have involved the use of intoxicants of one type or other by some of the greatest authors, artists, musicians, philosophers, etc. in history. Mind and consciousness expansion has intrigued mankind ever since we crawled out of our cave and looked at the stars while gnawing on that fermented mango or whatever. Even lack of sleep can act like a drug. And being human, we can be addicted to anything – sex, alcohol, tobacco, sugar … even the internet.

We live in a chemical laden world of over-prescribed pharmaceuticals, and cooked up powders. There are a few “natural” highs, and like it or not, smoke it or not, marijuana is one of them … having a plant be illegal is one of the least enforceable and most misguided policies our government has ever made. And like I said before, it was vilified for financial interests of men who would rather cut down trees that take years to grow to make paper, or use petrochemicals to make rope, than have farmers grow a crop that is imminently more renewable and less harmful to the environment.

It is a natural herb with hundreds, if not thousand of uses besides the intoxicating effects. Educate yourselves. Throughout time it has had many uses: medicine, cloth, paper, rope, oil, cosmetics, and on and on … many believe it is The Tree of Life that is promised in the Bible. Too bad so many fear it and that it has been forced into bad company because of that fear and propaganda.

It has been around forever and our nervous system even has a receptor designed specifically for it. Did God or Nature make a mistake? I’m not saying it does not cause difficulties for some people, or that everyone should light up, but if we are truly honest we surely know in our hearts that other substances are more harmful. Have you ever heard of anyone dieing of an overdose??? In my old hometown several college students in the past few years have died of alcohol poisoning after binge drinking. That only highlights the need for education. Their buddies might have seen that the partying had gone too far if there were more awareness that a person CAN DIE of an overdose of alcoholic beverage besides by car accident.

I also agree that operating a motor vehicle in an unsafe manner, whether under the influence of drugs, alcohol or only testosterone poisoning, should mean stiff penalties. Hopefully I’ve said my peace and can stop now. But I must say I do enjoy a good debate when one is available and I have an opinion. Thanks for bearing with me and expressing your thoughts as well.

Gnome-ad

edinnopolo - 9-9-2007 at 05:38 PM

Quote:

that's why youhave free will

do whatever you llike

That's alright as long as you don't infringe on the rights of others. The trouble with being high though, is that the perception of what other peoples rights are get a liitle out of focus. And doing pot is no exeption.

DENNIS - 9-9-2007 at 05:39 PM

- - - sigh - - -

edinnopolo - 9-9-2007 at 05:42 PM

Go to bed Dennis :lol:

Gnome-ad - 9-9-2007 at 05:44 PM

edinnopolo ~

I would include talking on cell phones in restaurants with that ...

CaboRon - 9-9-2007 at 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gnome-ad
edinnopolo ~

I would include talking on cell phones in restaurants with that ...

BIG YES ---- Leave it in the car!

comitan - 9-9-2007 at 05:57 PM

Bajafun

If you have kids, how are you ever going to let them out into this cruel world, not trusting that you did a good job in raising them. Kids Adults have a mind of their own, if they chose the wrong road nobody or any law is going to change them. I guess what really comes down to is trust, trusting that people will do the right thing.

Mexitron - 9-9-2007 at 05:58 PM

Gnome-ad...again good thoughts...reminded me of a story about the late,great scholar Joseph Campbell--when he was younger and living in Carmel in the 30's he had gone into a depression and his friend at the time, Eddie 'Doc' Ricketts (of Steinbeck fame) told him all he needed was a good drunk--Eddie got him plastered and wild and it shook him out of the rut!
Its not always the solution but every now and then it can be a good thing :biggrin:

BajaBruno - 9-9-2007 at 06:51 PM

There's no sense in starting with the 1960's, Skeet. Move the clock back a few years to the 1920's when Prohibition was driving scores of artists and intellectuals to Paris so they could drink and feel free, and speakeasies pouring adulterated alcohol were everywhere in the US;

or the Gay (18) Nineties when the rich were acting like hedonists;

or maybe the late 1700's when William Wilberforce wrote, “Intelligent accounts of foreign countries, which have been recently published, indicate that religion and the standard of morality are declining everywhere abroad even more rapidly than in our own country, At the same time, the progress of irreligion, and the decay of morals in our own country must alarm every considerate mind and forebode the worst consequences, unless the growing evil can be halted."

Seneca (ca. 4 BC–AD 65) wasn't too pleased with things, either: "Note the youths of the noblest lineage whose extravagance has flung them into the arena; note those men who cater to the passions of themselves and others in mutual lust, whose days never pass without drunkenness or some signal act of shame; it will thus be clear to you that there was more to fear than to hope for."

The Greeks before him also complained about the decay of morals. The fact is, that morals really haven't changed much at all through the life of humanity. Humans, for whatever reason, like what we call vice. Maybe we call it vice because the powers-that-are know that we will engage in it and therefore know they can control us by forcing us to ask forgiveness for being human.

We think that the addiction rate has alarmingly risen, but it has always remained pretty much the same. What I do know is that no government or religion has ever been successful in stopping vice, whether it be drugs, alcohol, gambling, or prostitution, and, I know that putting people in jail has never stopped vice. Just ask the Taliban.

Skeet, you can yell to people, “Let my conscience be your guide” all you want, but nobody is going to listen, because you aren’t them and nobody is going to let you run their life for them.

The first tenet of addiction therapy, so I have heard, is admitting that you have a problem and the things you have done so far to deal with it have been wrong. That is where we, as a nation, must start. We have to admit that incarceration, scare tactics, and appeals to other people’s value systems have not worked, and will not start working by sending people to prison longer or giving more arms and ammunition to corrupt politicians in foreign countries. Let’s try to remember that we administer drug programs so well that Afghanistan, a country that we supposedly control, just had their largest heroin harvest ever.

Let’s admit that what we’re doing isn’t working, cut that program to the roots, and start over with a workable system that involves education and rehabilitation.

[Edited on 9-10-2007 by BajaBruno]

Bajabus - 9-9-2007 at 07:12 PM

bajafun777. The facts do not support your ""feeling". In other countries where marijuana is legal it's use is much lower per capita than here in the USA where it is illegal.

For instance the Netherlands:

Lifetime prevalence of marijuana use (ages 12+) in 2001
USA 36.9% Netherlands 17.0%

Past month prevalence of marijuana use (ages 12+) 2001
USA 5.4% Netherlands 3.0%

Lifetime prevalence of heroin use (ages 12+) 2001
USA 1.4% Netherlands 0.4%

Incarceration Rate per 100,000 population 2002
USA 701 Netherlands 100

Per capita spending on criminal justice system (in Euros) 1998
USA €379 5 Netherlands €223

Homicide rate per 100,000 population Average 1999-2001
USA 5.56 Netherlands 1.51

Cannabis use among young people has also increased in most Western European countries and in the US. The rate of (cannabis) use among young people in the US is much higher than in the Netherlands, and Great Britain and Ireland also have relatively larger numbers of school students who use cannabis.

The figures for cannabis use among the general population reveal the same pictures. The Netherlands does not differ greatly from other European countries. In contrast, a comparison with the US shows a striking difference in this area: 32.9% of Americans aged 12 and above have experience with cannabis and 5.1% have used in the past month. These figures are twice as high as those in the Netherlands.

The money we are currently spending would be much better spent on prevention and education rather than incarcerating people for marijuana possession.

Dave, I say we still need to spend the money if it's legalized because I don't think the "abuse" problem will magically disappear. It's a health and mental health issue not a criminal issue. All we are doing now is enriching the drug lords and feeding a massive criminal enterprise while exposing marijuana users to a sleazy criminal element they would not otherwise have to feed and deal with.

amir - 9-9-2007 at 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBruno
... Let’s try to remember that we administer drug programs so well that Afghanistan, a country that we supposedly control, just had their largest heroin harvest ever...

You bet! Wasn't that the real purpose of the last few wars we had? To control the drug trades? It's sick, but it's true. Our government doesn't want to eliminate the drug cartels. It wants to be IT! And the government doesn't want you to dose yourself, with whatever it might be, it wants you to buy their "approved" drugs. It's all sick and the argument has been going around for decades, no, really for centuries, even millenia. Take the "crime" and guilt out of human nature and replace it with the Golden Rule. Wars, all wars, even wars on drugs, have created more horrific conditions making it that much more necessary to find alternative states of mind to escape.

BajaBruno - 9-9-2007 at 07:27 PM

This is purely anecdotal, but several years ago it was reported in California that education had curbed the teenage smoking rate dramatically, but there were still a few hard-core smokers (as there will always be).

So, some brain-child politician pushed through a bill making teenage smoking illegal (prior to that it was only illegal to sell to a minor). I said, "Oops, wrong idea." Several months later, the newspapers reported a mysterious increase in teenage smoking and nobody could figure out why . . . I wonder.

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