BajaNomad - Fish Smokers again

Fish Smokers again

Al G - 9-10-2007 at 01:39 PM

I asked about smokers awhile back and learned a lot...still don't know a lot though...
I found some smoked Dorado at costco and decided to try it...it was a one pound slab.
I liked it, but fired my mouth...to much salt.
Checking the nutritional fact list:
3 oz had
cholesterol...80 mg
sodium.......770 mg
sugar..........1 gram
protein.......20 grams
Is this crap added by the smoker?
is it necessary??? Help...I wanted to smoke fish, but this will kill me.
Can I smoke yellow tail and get less cholesterol?
Smoker wanta be.....

Mexitron - 9-10-2007 at 02:33 PM

The cholesterol and protein come from the fish (unless the marinade is butter!)...some of the sodium is from the fish but most is probably added; yellowtail has similar cholesterol I would think.

Sharksbaja - 9-10-2007 at 02:39 PM

I knew it was higher than many fish but..wow!

This site contains much info:
http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-015997024030000000000.htm...

Absolutely no wild salmon! :lol:

C'mon, we all know how good it is for you. :biggrin:

[Edited on 9-10-2007 by Sharksbaja]

Cypress - 9-10-2007 at 02:53 PM

Just smoke the fish with some good wood smoke. :yes:

All the rest of the sugar, salt, additives etc. come from the marinade.

DanO - 9-10-2007 at 02:54 PM

That cholesterol number is fairly high for fish (more than 3 times higher than smoked salmon, for example, but only a little higher than smoked sturgeon). On the other hand, it's not quite as high as bacon, and only about half as much as shrimp (which are notoriously high in cholesterol). But the important number to look at is the amount of saturated fat, which should be avoided, as it leads to the relative elevation of bad cholesterol vs. good cholesterol in the body.

I'll bet that at least part of the jacked up sodium figure, and all of the sugar, is from the salting or brining of the fish before smoking -- check your ingredients.

Taco de Baja - 9-10-2007 at 03:04 PM

Unfortunately, the oilier the fish the better it smokes (Like Tunas and Salmon)...

Less oily fish are dry when smoked (From experience, smoked Halibut, is a waste of a good fish).

Just remember, smoked fish is meant as an appetizer, not a meal, so what’s' a few grams of cholesterol once in a while?

And I'll bet there is a lot more than 770mg of sodium on that Costco Dorado, especially if it "burned your mouth"

Sharksbaja - 9-10-2007 at 03:26 PM

All that salt! Yah, I'd worry bout my blood pressure with some products :wow:

Al G - 9-10-2007 at 03:28 PM

Fact label says 1 gram fat...0 from saturated...0 from trans fat...maybe it is Omega-3 fatty acids...don't know if cholesterol is good or bad type. 80 mg I think is to high for weekly use...unless it is DHL and not LDL...don't know how find out yet.
Thanks sharks...that site will help a lot when I learn to use it

Alan - 9-10-2007 at 04:05 PM

Hell. None of us can live for ever and we are talking about a quality of life issue as well. Get your self a good oily fish like a tuna and leave the skin on (keeps it moister). Make your own brine solution and smoke it over some nice mesquite. When it is done, crack a couple of Pacificos and watch the sunset. Would you really want to live longer if you couldn't do this??

elizabeth - 9-10-2007 at 04:20 PM

I think you're looking at the good fat with fatty fish. Omega-3 fatty acids are supposed to lower triglyceride levels...just what I read! And want to believe because I love wild salmon, and it's plentiful here, and I like to smoke it. The salt and sugar are from the brine....I've never tried smoking without a brine, but if you do, I'd like to know what the result is.

Al G - 9-10-2007 at 08:37 PM

Alan...I agree...but with the desire to limit cholesterol and salt. Fish fat is not a concern and cholesterol is what it is...hoping for the best.
I was just surprised at 80 mg in 3 Oz's of Dorado and was wondering if most fish was this high.
Elizabeth...I of course do not have the answer on brine either...I just ordered 3 books on brine, curing and smoking fish. I will start with half the salt...never have been much of a salt person and use absolutely none now. I have known people that used so much salt when cooking, it would make me choke the first bite :lol:

Had to cut the top 1/8" off this Dorado just to eat it.
I just bought a new vacuum packer, so I should not need so much salt...

vandy - 9-11-2007 at 01:39 AM

To put things in perspective, an egg has over 200 mg cholesterol...that's ONE egg.
When I smoke fish, usually yellowtail, I like a marinade of canned chipotles and sugar, really more of a rub.
The medium-cold smoke adds the great flavor, especially with a nice mild wood like pecan, although hickory and a light mesquite are good too.
Your homemade smoked fish has far less sodium, which is always added in the brine.
Of course, I may just be blowing smoke...

Al G - 9-11-2007 at 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandy
To put things in perspective, an egg has over 200 mg cholesterol...that's ONE egg.
When I smoke fish, usually yellowtail, I like a marinade of canned chipotles and sugar, really more of a rub.
The medium-cold smoke adds the great flavor, especially with a nice mild wood like pecan, although hickory and a light mesquite are good too.
Your homemade smoked fish has far less sodium, which is always added in the brine.
Of course, I may just be blowing smoke...

Vandy...what do you mean by Medium cold....what temp? Would cherry work...

shari - 9-11-2007 at 08:26 AM

Living on seafood as we do here in our village makes for very high colesteral levels...all that lobster, YT, tuna etc....so my solution is to make and eat lots of oatmeal cookies(with chocolate chips and pecans) I call em my colesteral busters!

Bajalero - 9-11-2007 at 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alan
Hell. None of us can live for ever and we are talking about a quality of life issue as well. Get your self a good oily fish like a tuna and leave the skin on (keeps it moister). Make your own brine solution and smoke it over some nice mesquite. When it is done, crack a couple of Pacificos and watch the sunset. Would you really want to live longer if you couldn't do this??

Now that's the right attitude.

With all these health concerns over salt, I think swimming in the Sea Of Cortez , with its high saline content, should be considered hazardous

tripledigitken - 9-11-2007 at 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G

Quote:

Vandy...what do you mean by Medium cold....what temp? Would cherry work...

Al,

Cherry works great. I use a combination of cherry and alder. The mesquite and hickory is too strong for my taste. You have to experiment to find your own favorite. I cut way back on the salt content from most recipes.

Happy smoking. :coolup:

Al G - 9-11-2007 at 09:37 AM

Thanks Ken,

Good to hear...I have lots of cherry and alder.
The two big questions I need info on is:
1)Is salt necessary at all...what is the role it plays...Just taste?
2)dose fish have to be dry (overcooked) to preserve it.
3)What is Medium cold smoking...thought that you heated it :lol:

Bajalero...Thought it was necessary to swim in saline water to get that gringo bronze Todos Santos look :biggrin:

Cypress - 9-11-2007 at 09:55 AM

Al G Seems to me that bacteria need a certain % of moisture to reproduce, a high salt content inhibits bacterial growth also.

You can salt fish, then soak in fresh water before you cook or eat it, it'll still taste salty tho.

tripledigitken - 9-11-2007 at 10:05 AM

Al,

Salt is the preservative. We refrigerate it for up to 2 weeks and it is still good.

I prefer it moist inside, not jerky like. So I only smoke it long enough to get to that stage. My pieces of fish are at least 1" thick also.

It helps to rinse the fish off real well after the brining stage, and then let them air dry on your smoking rack.

Can't answer the "medium cold smoke" question.

Snacking on smoked fish with a beer can't be worse than chips or french fries, just enjoy.

Ken

Al G - 9-11-2007 at 11:15 AM

Ken...I understand salt is a perservitive...but is it needed if you vacuum pack and freeze until use...would that be enough to last for a longer period of time. :?:

As I understand vacuum packed food can be frozen without affecting flavor or texture...
Has anyone trued this...or trued vacuum pack and just refrigerate...without a lot of salt...say enough for taste only

What kind of time periods are we talking about???

Cypress - 9-11-2007 at 11:47 AM

Al G. Vacuum pac or freeze in water that covers all of the fish. Either way it'll be good.

You can add seasoning to suit your taste when you prepare it.

Al G - 9-11-2007 at 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Al G. Vacuum pac or freeze in water that covers all of the fish. Either way it'll be good.

You can add seasoning to suit your taste when you prepare it.

I know all about freezing RAW fish...I am trying to figure the best process for smoking without salt and then storing in pack for Beaching and picnicking...traveling and using on a long term bases.
The batch I purchased at Costco has a sale by 10/25/07 and I have been munching on it for at least 10 days...eating last piece now :biggrin:

don't know packing and shipping time...but I had noticed it days before I bought it...so guessing maybe 3 months and I am sure they are playing safe. Damn this fish is Goooood :yes:

If I smoke at 1 1/2 month batches I should be safe with less salt........

Cypress - 9-11-2007 at 12:56 PM

Al G. Sharksbaja is the guru of smoking fish. Ask him, when he speaks, listen and take notes. :bounce:

elizabeth - 9-11-2007 at 12:57 PM

I've smoked very large quantities of salmon, then vacuum sealed and frozen it without losing any flavor or texture. I recently found a package stuck in the back of the freezer that was over a year old. It was still good!!!!

Al G - 9-11-2007 at 01:26 PM

Thanks Elizabeth...good to know
Holy cow elizabeth your my neighbor...almost...Stinson beach is around the corner...well almost

I found a few answers to my questions:
http://www.uaf.edu/ces/publications/freepubs/FNH-00325.pdf

notes on smoking

Sharksbaja - 9-11-2007 at 02:03 PM

Just to be safe, you must/should adhere to a formula that not only "cures" the fish but produces good flavor and texture. There are scads of recipes and methodology for doityerselfers. but commercially, it's a different story. So for this purpose we'll look at home technique and see if we can minimize the salt while retaining good flavor and shelf/freezer life.

The cure: this serves different functions
1.) Inhibits bacterial growth
2.) Softens and swells the tissue cell walls
3.) Adds flavor
there are more

Cures usually require large amounts of salt to help saturate the product and draw-in other flavors. Your cure might have salt, sugar, soy, water and smoke. Soaking product in this permits larger cure uptake by the tissue. The longer it's soaked the more preserved it will be
Dry-rubs are another method whereas it is easier to limit the salt content but the trade-off is less tissue exposure to that wonderful flavor you add and (non-frozen) shelf-life shortened.

Some smoke is saltier than others. Although I don't smoke much fish with Mesquite a little can go a long way. Try adding a little to the other mellower chips. It may just increase that salt flavor if you cut back on brining time/method .
The smoking of the fish is extremely important and the ability to control that temperature over extended periods. The hotter the smoke , the drier the fish. I've smoked fish up to 24 hrs but it's very tricky. Most folks like to smoke fish 4-8 hrs. Remember also, thicker pieces will have less potent flavor in the center but will have a better consistency. I like very moist fish personally. Tuna and salmon are good choices for most folks because the hi fat content provides good results without drying out. I don't like it when smoked fish is fish jerky(I actually love it), you know what I mean. :lol:

Shari understands how to endulge. I wouldn't worry so much about smoked fish in a persons diet. You'll be doing yourself a favor(forget nitrosamines) by not eating more harmful foods, like everthing else! :lol:

Seriously though, you can adjust the salt content. Be sure your cooking times are enough. Add less salt to your cure. Back off on cure time. Adjust thickness of pieces and smoke a bit longer.I've had some with light salt soy and honey. Twas good! You could also just end up turning it into fish jerky. That stuff can last months in the sun! :wow:

My kids love it!

You have to strike a compromise. A well prepared finished product should last two weeks refrigerated. All home cooked perishable vacuum-packed food products should always be refrigerated. Frozen food can be good a year later. Exclude all air from vac bag or plastic wrap, wrap in foil and deep freeze -10f. THe methods of home packing can permit bacterial growth of the nasty sort. Be careful! Experiment wisely! Have fun! It's a great hobby! ---slurp--- :cool:

Al G - 9-11-2007 at 02:22 PM

Now that is what I call real info...sharks. One question though, with lite salt brine, can you add all your flavorings....brown sugar and the like and then vacuum pack for a period to increase flavor without a lot of salt.
I understand vacuuming creates negative pressure...

No prob Al

Sharksbaja - 9-11-2007 at 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
Now that is what I call real info...sharks. One question though, with lite salt brine, can you add all your flavorings....brown sugar and the like and then vacuum pack for a period to increase flavor without a lot of salt.
I understand vacuuming creates negative pressure...

I don't know, that's what some say. That sounds clever but unnecessary IMHO. I would think pressure would force juices inward not vacuum??
Many people rinse off and dry the fish first before smoking. I ALWAYS leave the skin on. That is another small adjustment you can make. It helps, I think, keep valuable moisture in there. I will somtimes brush w/olive oil for another way I make it. So many ways!
You still need surface area for more absorbed flavor but I've had good results from the biggest of pieces with skin . Say 2 1/2' steaks. I call em "roasts". A 2-4 hr lite brine and a good marinade for a another hr or a dry brine for 4-6 and marinade a couple more. Smoke lowest possible temp 3-5 hrs or more.

[Edited on 9-11-2007 by Sharksbaja]

Smoking

Garry - 9-11-2007 at 06:37 PM

Sharks, Do put skin side down or do you turn after 1/2 way thru smoking? Just found out that the Teriyaki Sauce from CostCo is all you need, has salt an everything else, just a lite coating, i add some red pepper flakes also.

Al G - 9-12-2007 at 10:16 AM

Gerry...good question...I had assumed skin side down as I have not noticed any marks on meat.
A hunter friend does his elk with Teriyaki and thins it with Pineapple juice as a marinade...best elk I have ever had. :cool:

Mexitron - 9-12-2007 at 10:23 AM

Man, you guys are getting me hungry--time to build a smoker!

tripledigitken - 9-12-2007 at 10:33 AM

Pieces with skin are the best choice for smoking. Place skin down, no need to turn.

Be sure not to throw away the skin, delicious! Makes great sushi hand rolls! :yes:

Ken

Cypress - 9-12-2007 at 12:35 PM

Leave the scales on and smoke the fish skin-down, the scales and skin will fuse and trap the juice, it also serves as a plate.

Put a couple of chickens above the fish and let 'em drip on the fish as they cook, you're gonna have something special.

Sharksbaja - 9-12-2007 at 12:57 PM

Quote:

Put a couple of chickens above the fish and let 'em drip on the fish as they cook, you're gonna have something special.

Chicken-smoked fish? :lol:

Hmmmm

pappy - 9-12-2007 at 01:05 PM

we've smoked white sea bass for 24 hours(when on the pacific side) used small amount of mesquite and rosemary only. we fed off of it for a day, then headed over to cortez side and munched on it for two more days.man it was good!! benn doing it like that ever since...

Al G - 9-12-2007 at 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Leave the scales on and smoke the fish skin-down, the scales and skin will fuse and trap the juice, it also serves as a plate.

Put a couple of chickens above the fish and let 'em drip on the fish as they cook, you're gonna have something special.

That sounds like it would taste good...if you didn't care about you health :no:

This thread is about a better way to smoke for taste and good health...I will try it though as I don't always cook for health.
All I have in my brain now is the statement by Alan:
Make your own brine solution and smoke it over some nice mesquite. When it is done, crack a couple of Pacificos and watch the sunset. Would you really want to live longer if you couldn't do this?? I want to live long enough to get my fill of Baja sunsets and Pacifico.... :biggrin:

Al G - 9-12-2007 at 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pappy
we've smoked white sea bass for 24 hours(when on the pacific side) used small amount of mesquite and rosemary only. we fed off of it for a day, then headed over to cortez side and munched on it for two more days.man it was good!! benn doing it like that ever since...

What temperature did you maintain??? How big was the bass?? How thick :?:

marv sherrill - 9-13-2007 at 06:05 PM

I smoke fish in Baja all the time - use the KISS method - keep it simple...
a. Filet the fish - yellowtail, bonito, dorado, or grouper - leave skin on -
b. soak in marinade of your choice - 2 hours - teryaki etc
c. smoke for a minimum of 2 hours (depending on how often you tend the fire with fresh, wet wood chips)
d. eat with crackers and pepperjack cheese, beer or marguarita
e. done

That's KISS: "Keep It Simple Stupid"

Sharksbaja - 9-13-2007 at 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by marv sherrill
I smoke fish in Baja all the time - use the KISS method - keep it simple...
a. Filet the fish - yellowtail, bonito, dorado, or grouper - leave skin on -
b. soak in marinade of your choice - 2 hours - teryaki etc
c. smoke for a minimum of 2 hours (depending on how often you tend the fire with fresh, wet wood chips)
d. eat with crackers and pepperjack cheese, beer or marguarita
e. done

I agree 100%. For most folks this will work fine.

roundtuit - 9-13-2007 at 07:48 PM

try a little jalapino juice and slices in the brine.. Makes the Pacifico better... :biggrin:

wakemall - 9-13-2007 at 08:21 PM

These ideas are a lot different than what I do.... I did 50 pounds of Salmon last year with the normal recipe but used pineapple juice instead of water. I smoked the Salmon for 12 to 16 hours. I do albacore with the normal recipe and smoke for 14 to 18 hours. I vacuum seal the fish and then freeze it. Nobody meantioned the importance of freezing in a frost freezer and not a frost free freezer. A frost free freezer will still suck the moisture out of Tilia freezer bags. My garage freezer is the old style frost freezer and does not freezer burn meat. I have had two year old elk liver that was fine. I have smoked Salmon that is a year old that is still great.

I am concerned about the comments regarding the colesteral levels in smoked Salmon. Is this factual?

Sharksbaja - 9-13-2007 at 09:52 PM

A layer or two of paper towels between plastic and foil helps in some freezers that dry out/burn food. You are right about frost, it is an natural insulator. Aging occurs regardless of system. Fish can vary greatly. If you take considerable moisture out either by overcooking or thru freezer drying you compromise texture and/or flavor. Some things hold up well to freezing while others do not. Fish with higher levels of oil naturally have lower amounts of water in their tissue. While this oil helps prevent "freezer burn" the nature of ice and it's crystalline structure becomes more amplified and apparent with less oily fish over long periods of time..

Let's explore this cholesterol thang.

The Myth of Cholesterol - Seafood?
Written by Gloria Tsang R.D.
last updated: November 2004

Myth 1: I have high blood cholesterol. I should avoid seafood because it's high in cholesterol.
Many think that cholesterol in seafood will increase the cholesterol in blood. Indeed, cholesterol found in seafood or other meats has little effect on blood cholesterol in MOST people. Saturated fats and trans fattty acids are the most important factors that raise blood cholesterol, not dietary cholesterol! Saturated fats are found in some pre-packaged food or other processed foods containing shortening or partially hydrogenated vegetable oil. Trans fatty acids, on the other hand, are also found in packaged snack foods, deep-fried foods or firm margarine containing hydrogenated oil.

Myth 2: All cholesterol in my body is bad!Our body does need cholesterol to make bile salts, hormones and vitamin D. It is mainly produced by our liver. Cholesterol will build up on the artery walls when the level of cholesterol in the blood is too high. There are 2 main types of blood cholesterol: LDL (the "Bad" cholesterol) and HDL (the "Good" cholesterol).

High amounts of the bad LDL will deposit cholesterol on the artery walls forming plaques. More and more plaques will narrow the arteries lumen and may eventually block blood flow. Therefore LDL is considered the "Bad" cholesterol. Monounsaturated fats and polyunsaturated fats found in nuts and fish for instance, can lower the LDL level. In addition, soluble fiber found in fruits, oats, barley, and legumes can also lower LDL.

The good HDL, on the other hand, takes excess cholesterol away and carries it back to the liver to be excreted. It can also remove some of the cholesterol already attached to the artery walls. Therefore HDL is considered the "Good" cholesterol as high levels of HDL in the blood can decrease the risk of heart disease. Physical activity can also raise HDL level.

---------------
I'm satisfied, pass the crackers please.....

wakemall - 9-13-2007 at 10:02 PM

Thanks.....

Al G - 9-14-2007 at 07:57 AM

Very interesting Sharks...I am on board.
Now is there a place to determine how much LDL v HDL in different fish...or is HDL only produced in our bodies :?:

Wakemall...thanks for the freezer tip :coolup:

More recipes the better....come on....Please :bounce:

vandy - 9-14-2007 at 02:12 PM

Sorry I took so long to get back on the "medium cold smoke".
I like to smoke my fish, not smoke-cook.
When doing a long, slow smoke, I try to keep the temperature under 90F. This keeps the fish from getting that overcooked "mealy" texture.
Now with salmon, I love the uncooked smoked salmon best, where you try to keep the smoke under like 50F on a long cold night.
Damn I'm hungry, but I have bluefish in the smoker...

Cypress - 9-14-2007 at 02:46 PM

vandy Smoke 'em if you got 'em, but don't ever let one of those dudes get a chance to chew on you. :biggrin:

Cold smoking is cool

Sharksbaja - 9-14-2007 at 03:06 PM

Vandy, sounds like you got da kine setup. How do you keep that smoke so cold? Slant-ducting with separate isolated chambers? If I had a hill, that's what I would do here at home. At the shop I use a completely different method. I have a steam-smoker. I can program the thang to a great job at smoking food. It serves me well there.
I'm with you as far as using the coldest smoke you can. That can and is the controlling factor I think in producing an excellent product. Remember though one's methodology may not be possible or appropriate for others.

Al G - 9-14-2007 at 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandy
Sorry I took so long to get back on the "medium cold smoke".
I like to smoke my fish, not smoke-cook.
When doing a long, slow smoke, I try to keep the temperature under 90F. This keeps the fish from getting that overcooked "mealy" texture.
Now with salmon, I love the uncooked smoked salmon best, where you try to keep the smoke under like 50F on a long cold night.
Damn I'm hungry, but I have bluefish in the smoker...

WoW Vandy...that sound awesome....but...but...but this sounds like smoked sushi...I assume this is a one time meal as raw fish does not store. I think care in preparation is extremely important...right?
Can you walk me through the prep? :yes:

vandy - 9-14-2007 at 05:05 PM

The fish still dries out, albeit very slowly.
I use a charcoal R2D2 Brinkman, and take the firepot and put it on the ground, then stack bricks until the unit is far above the coals. Chunks of pecan wood without bark taste the best to me for fish.
Sometimes I use the water dish, sometimes not.
A nice cool night works best.
Yeah, cold-smoked salmon is very sushi-like and incredible on crackers.
The smoked bluefish is more cooked, but still moist.
If I was planning to save (hah!) smoked fish like yellowtail, I'd smoke it until it dried out.
It seems to disappear too quickly what with giving away so many samples.