BajaNomad - Solar 12 v DC regulator question

Solar 12 v DC regulator question

Santiago - 11-2-2007 at 07:11 AM

Off grid 'cabin', use for a couple of weeks at a time then sits empty for a couple of months. Currently runs a 12 volt RV type water pump and a couple of 4 watt lights. 3-15 watt panels through a very cheap, Chicago Electic (Harbor Frieght) regulator, to charge 1 deep cell battery. All DC. Nothing needs to be 'on' when cabin is empty.

A few questions for you solar pros:
1. We wish to replace the regulator with an automatic type that will charge the battery when it needs it. We have to manually turn the current regulator on and monitor the voltage and then turn it off. Sheeesh This is way too much responsibility for us. Recomendations? Keep in mind that we will want to add a few more lights.
2. Can we wire the lights with romex, 110v boxes, switches etc. under the theory that eventually we will change over to a 110v system? I presume that the 12v DC system will work with romex, like a #14?
3. When we leave, do we disconnect everything (panels and battery) from the regulator? My buddy (NOT ME!) thinks that solar panels are like teen-age boys - all that energy they're generating must have regular release or they will explode. :lol:

I, of course, think this is completely bogus but I have to admit, I tried using that line once or twice myself. With little suscess as I recall. :coolup:

Bob and Susan - 11-2-2007 at 07:30 AM

you need a "charge controler"
then just leave it on...

it will "take care" of the energy your panels are producing when you don't need them

personally if the panels are accessible to others they MIGHT
"go missing" when you're gone
I'd lock them up inside and take them out when you arrive
no reason to tempt travelers

i'd wire the place correctly the first time
#14 romex is fine for a small house
use wire caps and correct boxes
if the wire is exposed use condit and watertight boxes

you'll be fine

Roberto - 11-2-2007 at 08:57 AM

What B&S said. Plus, a controller is not a safe way to charge a battery anyway - you can cook your batteries with it if you don't pay attention because it doesn't taper off the input voltage asthe battery voltage rises. Check your water level in the batteries!

Getting Charged Up

MrBillM - 11-2-2007 at 09:34 AM

In itself, the word "Controller" doesn't mean anything. In many cases, it has simply become a replacement word for "Regulator".

The cheaper Regulators/Controllers/Maintainers (all three words are used here and there) simply "sample" the battery voltage, then continue to charge at whatever they have available until the battery is at full charge resulting in a battery that tends to be over-charged over longterm light usage conditions.

For BEST Battery maintenance, you want a Three-Stage Controller such as the Trace C30-C40-C60 or others. Outback is the very BEST, but expensive. I use two Trace C40s that have been online for almost ten years without issues. The Three-stage will charge the battery array to a (settable) maximum voltage, maintain it at that voltage for a specified time and then taper off to a "Float" (maintenance) voltage setting, only allowing enough charge to maintain that float.

That said, I have used the single-stage units in the past and at present to charge small RV battery arrays from one to three 42 watt panels without any premature battery failures.

Trace C40 3-Stage Charge Controller
--------------------------------------------------------
3-stage PWM regulators with field selectable voltage settings. Calibrated scales and test points allow precise adjustment and verification. Electronic protection for short circuit, overload, overtemp, and reverse polarity. Two stage lightning and surge protection. Equalize mode has manual or automatic activation (every 30 days). Has diversion control mode for control of wind and hydro sources. Optional backlit LCD meter displays volts, amps, cumulative amp-hours of array and is mounted on the unit (when ordered together) or remotely with a telephone type cable. Optional remote temperature compensation probe. Operates as either a charge control, diversion control or a load control. Dim. 9"H x 5"W x 2"D. Wt 4lbs. Limited 2 year warranty.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Checking current Trace 3-stage offerings: C-12, C-35, C-40, C-60. $110. $119. $159, $199.

[Edited on 11-2-2007 by MrBillM]

TraceC40.jpeg - 6kB

Bob and Susan - 11-2-2007 at 09:59 AM

i have a trace c60...

i just got two more outback controlers
they are OUTSTANDING!!!
you get 30% more power out of you solar bank with the outbacks

no more trace controlers
old technology

Going Outback

MrBillM - 11-2-2007 at 10:24 AM

There is NO doubt that the Outback MPPT Controllers are the premier unit in their class with a Theoretical (and practical) charge advantage over simply increasing the number of panels in the array.

While flawed in not assessing the Exact method by which the Outback produces the added energy, a rough indicator might be:

Trace C60 = $199 Outback MX60 = $500.
60 amp + Max Claim 30 % = 78 amp peak. Addtional Solar panels to accomplish = $1200 +.

Assuming that the claimed 30 % remains steady throughout the input range, any array in the 20 amp and up range would result in a price benefit. At the margins, of course, longterm endurance would be a question since the Panels might be expected (barring defects) to outlive the controller. Time will only tell in that respect.

[Edited on 11-2-2007 by MrBillM]

Russ - 11-2-2007 at 11:20 AM

There are lots of sites to look at for your specific needs. Here is one: http://www.gaiam.com/retail/product/53-0115_MSTR
Here in Punta Chivato everyone is pretty much an expert but seldom agree on anything.
My thought would be to look around for a kit. Most good businesses in this area will have a work sheet you can fill out and submit and then they'll send you a couple of ideas. I'm a believer in using conduit (the gray stuff) and stranded wire. I like to run 3 separate wires (red, green & black) I understand you'll only need two for the DC system but.... you'll probable want to upgrade to AC at some point and you won't have to pull the third wires later. I'd stay clear catalogs that sell everything and look at those that sell solar products. Good luck

12VDC versus 120VAC

MrBillM - 11-2-2007 at 12:00 PM

Something that should be stressed when discussing wiring is that 12VDC runs require substantially larger guage sizes for equal length runs than do 120VAC. 12V Wiring runs longer than 25 feet or so generally require 8 gauge or larger to avoid excessive voltage drop. 120VAC, on the other hand, works fine at 100 feet using 14-16 gauge. My personal method when running wiring inside of PVC conduit (sched 40 or 80) is to run multiples of 12 (or larger) gauge Romex to junction boxes. This gives you the option of combining conductors for 12VDC or separating them later for 120VAC.

The problem with buying so-called kits is that, often, you end up with parts you don't require for your installation and find yourself buying parts that aren't included. Additionally, vendors offering "Kits" often charge a premium above what the individual parts would cost. Better to educate yourself and determine what is required for your own installation.

Another excellent supplier of Alternative energy products is:

http://www.backwoodssolar.com

I have purchased thousands of dollars in equipment from them at excellent prices and service with no problems. One thing that does benefit from "shopping" though are the Solar Panels themselves. You can find a pretty wide variance in price on the same units.

Roberto - 11-2-2007 at 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
i have a trace c60...

i just got two more outback controlers
they are OUTSTANDING!!!
you get 30% more power out of you solar bank with the outbacks

no more trace controlers
old technology

Sorry, guys, that's just not true at higher ambient temps. I know that's the party line, but I suggest you do more research. The higher the ambient temperature, the less effective the MPPT controllers are. At Baja temps (except short winter stretches), they are no more effective than a Trace. For MUCH more money.

Quote:

Heat is the nemesis of a MPPT controller. As the panels get hot, the MPP voltage droops, and you no longer get great gains in charge current - indeed on some panels and very hot temperature, I have actually seen a loss of power. However, even in these situations, great gains are made in off-hours where the temperature is reduced and the sun is not directly on the panels. Overall gain is reduced but is still present.

Keep in mind that at anything over 20 degrees centigrade (68 degrees Fahrenheit, which is the point where a realistic 30% can be achieved), the gains start to decrease.

[Edited on 11-2-2007 by Roberto]

Outback Efficiency

MrBillM - 11-2-2007 at 03:42 PM

Roberto is correct regarding the "Heat" factor. However, even if we were to assume a 10-15 % gain averaged during the seasons, the cost versus gain related to additional solar panels is still valid if we assume a relatively long controller life cycle. The difference of $199 and $498 is actually less because the Trace Controllers make the Digital Display optional.

A close friend who has worked with Solar for many years now, both in the U.S. and Baja, had such success with the Outbacks that he insisted on supplying them with any systems he installed, including his own. Thus far, he's encountered no problems.

I don't own any Outback units, BUT if I were installing a new array of any size, I would probably purchase the Outback. The $300 difference between Trace and Outback equates to about three amps of panel purchase.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Solar-Electric.com:

"Maximum Power Point Tracking - this is electronic tracking, and has nothing to do with moving the panels. Instead, the controller looks at the output of the panels, and compares it to the battery voltage. It then figures out what is the best power that the panel can put out to charge the battery. It takes this and converts it to best voltage to get maximum AMPS into the battery. (Remember, it is Amps into the battery that counts). Most modern MPPT's are around 92-97% efficient in the conversion. You typically get a 20 to 45% power gain in winter and 10-15% in summer. Actual gain can vary widely depending weather, temperature, battery state of charge, and other factors."

hookemup - 11-2-2007 at 04:07 PM

Outback makes good products and their service is just outstanding .However the fan is an issue on the MX 60. They do have a free ( so far ) fan replacement kit that comes with a DVD. We chipped in with others here and bought a spare Mx 60 for the group. They have a new unit FM 80 that mentions " enhanced cooling " so they hopefully have fixed the problem. Make sure of your source though, as China has a surface to air missle called the FM 80, not sure about any enhanced cooling

BigWooo - 11-2-2007 at 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
12V Wiring runs longer than 25 feet or so generally require 8 gauge or larger to avoid excessive voltage drop.

This is very important. The max distance for 14 guage wire is 22.5 feet with a (12v) 2 amp load. At that distance you will have about a 2% drop in voltage.

What's more important is, with distances greater than 22.5 feet, or at that distance with a higher load, the wire will begin to heat up due to resistance. If you overload the wire too much, and it runs unprotected over old dry wood, palapa or some other flammable material, it has the potential to cause a fire.

Always be sure your wire is sized to the load and that you always have adequate circuit protection: Fuses or Breakers.

edit to add more info.

[Edited on 11-2-2007 by BigWooo]

Santiago - 11-2-2007 at 06:26 PM

Thanks guys - especially the heads up on the wire size - I had forgotten that. I seem to remember a website that had a wire-size-calculator but I can't find it now - anyone remember it?

Roberto - 11-2-2007 at 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
You typically get a 20 to 45% power gain in winter and 10-15% in summer

That is pure, unadulterated, BS (aka - marketing) - EXCEPT in a northern climate, and even there about 50% overstated. And it's not supported by ANY papers published on the subject. But, if you want to believe that - more power to you.

Al G - 11-2-2007 at 07:28 PM

Santiago... Here is the one I use:
http://www.solar4power.com/solar-power-volt_drop.html
I would not use anything less then 10 Gage Stranded...
I do not use romex solid for anything 12v...also I would run 8 or 6 to a centralized distribution Panel to shorten distances of 10 gage.
DC cost alot and skimping on wire will add to that cost...well since copper has exploded in price...maybe not :?:

I still would use 10 gage (things do change) unless the run was under 10 feet.

B.S. ?

MrBillM - 11-2-2007 at 09:37 PM

Roberto seems to have taken on this subject as a matter of personal honor. Odd.

I'm not making any claims regarding the Outback. Just passing on information. Are the claims hype ? I don't know. It would depend on the voltage rating of the particular panels used at high temperatures. You could determine that from the Spec sheets. Of course, they may all be lies too. Maybe they're ALL lying. That WOULD make it hard to design a system, wouldn't it ?

As I stated above, even a 10 % or more average year round would seem to justify the investment in MPPT technology. There are a lot of users (other than Roberto) who seem to agree. That would seem to include Bob/Susan and Soulpatch. Argue with them if honor demands it. I'm satisfied with the two Trace C40s (along with three other smaller "primitive" controllers from the Stone Age) that I'm using.

45 watts

landyacht318 - 11-2-2007 at 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Santiago
Thanks guys - especially the heads up on the wire size - I had forgotten that. I seem to remember a website that had a wire-size-calculator but I can't find it now - anyone remember it?

http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=29

Since you don't have a great amount of wattage from your harbor freight panels, you won't need a huge expensive top quality MPPT controller able to handle 50 amps.

That said, any controller will be better than what came with your HF panel kit.

I have been told that the MPPT controllers won't pay for themselves with systems under 300 watts, especially in hotter climates. That didn't stop me from getting a MPPT Blue Sky 2512i controller, BS IPN pro remote battery monitor powered by a Kyocera 130 watt panel. Apparently having the appropriate thickness wire is even more important when using MPPT controllers.

My controller says for a maximum 3% voltage drop.
One way lengths between panel and batteries with the controller somewhere inbetween:

6.4 feet 12 awg
10.2 feet 10 awg
16.2 feet 8awg
25.7 feet 6awg
40.8 feet 4awg

Unfortunately I read this little tidbit after I installed 12 awg on my 14 foot one way length, and will no doubt be adding some more copper.

Bob and Susan - 11-3-2007 at 06:50 AM

i'm traveling 20 feet from the combiner boxes
to the controler
with solid copper 10ga with "no problems" yet... :wow:

i'll get my camera and take a picture of the inside
of the "dinosaur" trace controler and
the Outback MPPT display controler

the display is WORTH the $200 just to see what you're getting from the panels :light:

the adjustments on the "dino trace" are inside dials which are VERY hard to "dial in"

Diver - 11-3-2007 at 07:12 AM

At 20', 10 ga is rated for 15A @12V.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/amps-wire-gauge-d_730.html

Roberto - 11-3-2007 at 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Roberto seems to have taken on this subject as a matter of personal honor. Odd.

Nope - just trying to prevent folks from falling for hype. Not directed at anyone personally.

I know several people who own these controllers in Baja who were sold the same way - the published information by sales people. When they didn't deliver on that info, I looked into it in detail, as I was going to purchase a couple myself and replace my C60. The best these things can deliver, and that's only in the coldest parts of the winter, is 5%-10% in Baja. Even BC. The sun is just too strong.

Now, if you have several thousand watts of panels, that is worth it, but for the smaller number that most people install, I don't think so.

landyacht318 - 11-3-2007 at 10:11 AM

In an earlier post I mentioned how I should have used a heavier gauge cable between my panel and batteries for my MPPT charge controller.

I just hooked up the connections last night, and at noon today my charge controller monitor was claiming an input of 7.4 amps and an output of 8.3 amps at 110 deg f panel temp and an 80 degree ambient temp with about 75% left in the batteries.

As my panel is only rated at 7.39 amps I don't think I'd benefit from the cost and labor or running 8awg cable (currently 12awg) from panel to batterybank.

Even when my fridge is running It still is putting out over 5 amps, and with my extra insulation I've got it down to a 35% duty cycle at 90 deg ambient.

No more packing up camp and running to town for a five day supply of ice!

Who hooooooo!

The Last Word on MPPT ?

MrBillM - 11-6-2007 at 10:30 AM

No, I'm sure it won't be.

However, the following detailed testing of the Outback offers a great deal of information regarding the Charge Characteristics. It doesn't address High-Temperature operation, BUT other docs I've read acknowledge that the MPPT advantage is Zero at peak temps around 120. Around 100 degrees, it is said to work out to around 2-5 % and the value increases as the temperature drops, realizing its higer potential in cooler months when the additional charge is most valued.

I would continue to posit that a year-round advantage of 5 % or higher in a nominal 60 amp array would be cost-effective versus additional panel supplement.

One additional possible advantage to the controller is that the panels in a new array can be wired for a higher voltage (up to 140 VDC) while still realizing 12 or 24 output from the Controller.
===============================================================
From Wind-Sun Tech Forum:

"Considering all that the MX60 has been around for >4 years and that the XW is new, I’d hope that the XW is a better product. Early MX60’s apparently suffered from cooling fan failures, so the XW’s passive cooling and higher operating temperature spec is an improvement.

Both are rated at 60 A continuous and include a DC-DC stepdown feature. I like the MX60’s range of user configurability. I don’t know how the XW compares. The XW is certified to FCC class B emissions specs, while the MX60 is not. I’ve heard of but a very few EMI/RFI issues with the MX60, so I don’t know if that’s a real issue. One XW spec I've not seen is power efficiency; the MX60's efficiency graphs are included in its manual.

Virtually all of an off-grid charge controller’s MPPT benefit is realized in the bulk charging stage. The XW’s continuous MPPT is technically superior to “sweep and sleep”, or “occasional tracking”. However, I’ve not yet seen a demonstration or a study that suggests any significant practical benefit.

Despite being a great controller, the legacy MX60 contains a few quirks. One is that it operates at a fixed “MPP” percentage when the output current is less that 5 A. The default setting is 77%, which I think is too low, as it does not result in maximum output current, which, after all, is the goal of MPPT. But, this setting easy enough to change, and I set my MX60 at 85%, which seems to work well enough.

The apparent major quirk, and this is a specific issue criticized by the new competition, is that the MX60’s output power drops to zero on occasion. Specifically, the MPPT output current briefly drops to zero once every three hours when operating in Mode 1 or Mode 2 to perform a calibration check.

The "zero power" (energy) penalty for either of these two operational modes is not too difficult to gauge. Assuming that each Mode 1 or 2 restart lasts 15 seconds, and that output current ranges from zero A to 40 A in an essentially linear manner during that period, then the energy penalty will be (15 sec. / 3600 sec./hr) x (40 A - ((0 A + 40 A) / 2)) = 0.083 Ah. In a 48 V system operating at 56 V, that’s ~5 Wh. If this Mode 1 or 2 restart occurs twice during bulk MPPT mode, the penalty is 0.167 Ah, or ~10 Wh.

Note that Mode 1 or 2 can be user set for Mode 0, which will limit the full restart sweeps to the morning wakeup routine and eliminate this penalty.

A perhaps larger issue is that the MX60’s output current drops -- but not to zero -- briefly during its periodic mini-sweeps. Assuming using the ½-90% sweep range causes output current to vary between 25 A and 40 A, that a mini-sweep occurs every six minutes and last 10 seconds, and that the bulk (MPPT) charge stage lasts 5 hours, the energy penalty would be ((10 sec /sweep) / 3600 sec/hr) x (40 A - ((25 A + 40 A)/2)) x (10 sweeps/hr) x 5 hrs = 1.04 Ah. In a 48 V system operating at 56 V, that’s 58 Wh.

The example above shows that the MX60’s bulk stage sweep operations exact a penalty of about 1.2 Ah/day. In practical terms, it means that a system delivering 40 A will stay in MPPT mode for an additional two minutes before the controller switches to absorb mode. Another way of looking at the example above is that the off-grid system would spend two minutes a day less time in Float mode.

It’s also possible that the MX60’s present MPPT algorithm would operate less than optimally in dynamic weather conditions. I’ve not yet tried to quantify the penalty from such conditions. But, having endlessly poked, prodded, and observed my MX60 over the past ~3 years, my gut feel is that such an environmental penalty would be a matter of but a few Ah and a few minutes per day, on average. Accordingly, let's say there’s an ~3 Ah total penalty on a day of variable Sun, passing clouds, and variable winds in the normal occasional sweep mode.

A similar improvement in my system, which rarely delievrs more than 20 of charge current, would amount to ~1-1/2 Ah/day. My system harvests ~100 Ah on a day that it runs runs in bulk mode for five hours, so that could mean an improvement of up to 1-1/2%. And, like like the efficiency benefits of heavy wires and VRLA batteries, every little bit helps.

So, does continuous MPPT tracking make a difference? Yes, it does. I believe that a tight continuously active MPPT algorithm can reduce the total MPPT bulk mode energy penalty to below 0.5 Ah per day. If using a “perturb and observe” (PAO) algorithm, the penalty can’t be reduced to zero as the PAO tracking (increment/decrement PV array voltage, observe effect on output current) will cause regular although minor reductions in output current.

From what I’ve seen, read, and calculated, I’d therefore say that the new continuous MPPT algorithms are evolutionary improvement over the MX60’s legacy “occasional” MPPT sweep algorithm. And, because they’re possible, continuous tracking algorithms are now expected in the marketplace. Plus, as we’ve seen, marketing hype will affect customers’ perceptions.

But, does continuous MPPT render the entire MX60 production run (~30,000 units?) obsolete overnight? I’d say no. But, we’ve gone from a situation where one controller dominated the big controller field to several new continuous MPPT controllers available – or soon to be -- from Apollo, Midnite, OutBack, and Xantrex."

Al G - 11-6-2007 at 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by soulpatch
This is cool stuff. I can't wait to see what's out there in a decade.

It is called Fuel cells...no way in hell it can be stopped. Is it better then solar???

Fuel cells are BS

Dave - 11-6-2007 at 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
It is called Fuel cells...no way in hell it can be stopped. Is it better then solar???

Not in our lifetimes. Production/delivery cost of hydrogen is prohibitive.

Tomorrow, Tomorrow, we love you Tomorrow

MrBillM - 11-6-2007 at 03:54 PM

You're always a day away.

To paraphrase the famous comment regarding U.S. Soccer:

"Fuel Cells are the Energy Source of the Future and they always will be".

Right now it's a technology that would put an entry vehicle price well over $100K and cost more to maintain than other fuel sources.

No doubt, there will be advances, but we won't see them become a consumer product. Our children Might, but don't bet on it.

Al G - 11-6-2007 at 04:17 PM

WoW you guys are really behind the times...I wonder if it is worth the time to bring you up to speed...

Tomorrow, Tomorrow

MrBillM - 11-6-2007 at 04:53 PM

http://www.fuelcells.org/info/library/QuestionsandAnswers062...

Stating that Fuel Cell Technology will not come into general use for Decades to come, the above paper Promoting future Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles states that the current Fuel production cost is $3,000/KW at which it is far too expensive. Another paper I read estimated the 2002 cost at $1000/KW. They estimate (guess) that production costs will be reduced to $225/KW in mass production and eventual target costs of $30-$50/KW at which point it would be competitive at an effective $1.10 per gallon price (untaxed). An impressive 99 % reduction in production costs which will be attained by some unknown process.

Disregarding the Infrastructure changes (and costs in the Trillions) needed to supply the product, I'm most fascinated by the spector of a passenger vehicle carrying Hydrogen in a tank pressurized at 5,000 PSI. A major collision should be impressive.

Al G - 11-6-2007 at 05:57 PM

Mrbill...I can say there are still hurdles, but of this I know...Chevron, BP, Shell are all on the cutting edge of research for infrastructure now.
I cannot take the time to post all now...but will post a couple important ones.
Released today by GM...
General Motors is working at full tilt in an effort to ensure that its fuel cell technology is commercialized as soon as possible, it has been revealed.

The auto manufacturer has confirmed that hundreds of ordinary consumers could get their hands on fuel cell vehicles through dealerships as early as 2011.

This is, according to USA Today, the most ambitious plan yet by a car maker to bring fuel cell technology to a wider audience.

According to Larry Burns, GM vice president for research and development, the company is being driven not by a determination to focusing on promising technology but is "working as hard and fast as [it] can for competitive reasons".

Indeed, Mr Burns said he is determined to stay ahead of rivals such as Mercedes-Benz and Honda, who are also pouring money into fuel cell research.

"I'm paranoid enough to conclude (rivals) are running on the same timeline we are," he told the news service.

Heightened competition is good news for consumers as it is likely to speed development of fuel cell technologies.
More soon....

Stockton Ca. My old hometown

Al G - 11-6-2007 at 06:01 PM

M&L Commodities has purchased a 600 kilowatt power plant from FuelCell Energy, it has been announced.

The purchase has been made under the name of the Stockton branch of Inland Cold Storage, a firm which maintains seven warehouses in the state of Connecticut.

Two direct fuel cell (DFC) units will be located at a warehouse currently being built in Stockton, California which will have a 5,325,000 cubic feet capacity for refrigerated and frozen storage.

The electricity produced by the power plant will be used to run the warehouse 24 hours a day, seven days a week while the thermal energy generated by the two DFC300 units will be harnessed to either heat the building's floor or provide absorption chilling.

"We selected DFC fuel cells because they give us ultra-clean, reliable electricity at competitive rates and increase our energy efficiency through CHP," commented Gary Guesman of Controlled Environments Construction, the project development partner and contractor for M&L/ICS.

"The other solutions we looked at did not match the DFC fuel cell advantages, either in terms of overall cost-of-ownership, 24/7 operation, or environmental benefits."

The purchase was made with the help of funding provided through California's Self-Generation Incentive Programme and courtesy of a $1.5 million grant from Pacific Gas & Electric.

© Adfero Ltd

M&A action

Al G - 11-6-2007 at 06:04 PM

Daimler in negotiations ‘to buy Ballard’s auto business’
It has been reported that German car and truck maker Daimler has agreed to buy the automotive fuel cell business of Canada's Ballard Power Systems, according to business weekly WirtschaftsWoche.

Ballard has responded to the story by confirming that it has been reviewing strategic alternatives with regard to its automotive fuel cell assets due to the lengthy projected timeline to commercialization and high cost of development. Ballard confirmed it is currently in negotiations with Daimler and Ford Motor Company with regard to one of the options under consideration.

Daimler, which declined to comment, owns 18.7 percent of Ballard with another 11.2 percent controlled by U.S. carmaker Ford. Ballard commented that there can be no assurance that the negotiations will be successful or, if they are successful, that definitive agreements will be reached. Ballard does not intend to comment any further while negotiations are being conducted, but will provide an update on completion of negotiations

wornout - 11-6-2007 at 06:07 PM

I though the fuel cells that are being developed for home use, use something called a 'PEM'. which will extract the hydrogen from butane, propane, diesel, gasoline, which ever is available?

Let us hear from Honda...

Al G - 11-6-2007 at 06:11 PM

Honda has claimed that its fuel cell powered car will be the first commercially available car ready for the road.

According to reports Honda will claim a world breakthrough at Nov¬ember's Los Angeles Motor Show when it unveils the first commercially available hydrogen fuel cell car.

The four-seater car will be based on the FCX, and will be sold as a rival to the Mercedes S-Class, and cost around £50,000, Honda officials have said.

It is thought the zero-emission car will be able to convert around 60 per cent of its fuel into energy; approximately three times that of a petrol vehicle and twice that of a hybrid, giving a 300-mile range on a full 171-litre tank.

The car will initially only be on sale in the US and Japan and will be limited to areas where hydrogen fuel is available.

However, the car manufacturer also plans to sell reformers that create the volatile liquid from domestic gas.

Al G - 11-6-2007 at 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wornout
I though the fuel cells that are being developed for home use, use something called a 'PEM'. which will extract the hydrogen from butane, propane, diesel, gasoline, which ever is available?

Correct...I will try to find the report

Al G - 11-6-2007 at 06:17 PM

Cannot find the one on the new home generation yet....how about a lighthouse:
Fuel cells power lighthouses
Lighthouses situated in remote areas of the world can now be powered by fuel cell technology, it has been reported.

The New Scientist has revealed that lighthouses in difficult-to-access locations can now being powered by fuel cells because they are more easily transportable and are reliable power sources.

A consortium, led by the Centre for Process Industries (CPI) of Wilton, Teesside, has installed a fuel cell at the South Gare lighthouse at Redcar on England's North Sea coast.

The lighthouse had previously been supplied by a mains power cable but was prone to outages because the cable could easily be damaged by the strong winds and powerful seas that batter the area.

However, CPI has proofed the fuel cell against the salty air and is now using the technology to ensure the lighthouse is reliable.

The organisation has also developed an innovative water-based cooling system for the fuel cell to ensure it does not overheat

Have not found what I am looking for...Here is Toyota for now

Al G - 11-6-2007 at 07:30 PM

Toyota Motor Sales USA is to make a "major" announcement concerning the company's development of fuel cell technology at the Los Angeles Auto Show, it has been reported.

The show, which will this year run from November 16th through to November 25th, is already scheduled to host the launch of Honda's commercial fuel cell vehicle.

According to Auto Industry, Toyota is to muscle in on the attention being afforded to Honda's fuel cell technology by releasing details of its own efforts.

Last month, it was announced that Toyota's improved fuel cell hydrogen vehicle (FCHV) had covered 350 miles on a single tank of hydrogen on its way from Osaka to Tokyo.

According to the firm, a new tank and a high performance fuel cell stack mean that the FCHV has a potential single-fuelling range of around 466 miles - making it 25 per cent more efficient than previous versions.

Hyundai Motor Company and General Motors Corporation have also made statements recently on their fuel cell technological progress.

More from Texas expo

Al G - 11-6-2007 at 07:43 PM

The third and final day of the 2007 Fuel Cell Seminar and Expo got underway with two fascinating tracks
– residential scale fuel cell applications (read more about it in the Full Seminar report, coming soon) and
government incentive programmes, something which is of great interest to me as I put together Fuel
Cell Today’s second Quarterly Legislation Review. After talks on the Southern Fuel Cell Coalition
demonstration project, and demonstration projects in Connecticut and California, an introduction was
given to the ‘Fuel Cell State’ by Jennifer Gangi from Fuel Cells 2000. A range of policies and initiatives
are currently underway on hydrogen and fuel cells at state level in the USA. Fuel Cells 2000 has put
together a database covering these state fuel cell and hydrogen policies and demonstration projects,
which is freely available as a tool to government, policymakers and the public. Currently 47 states plus
the District of Columbia have some activity in the hydrogen and fuel cell arena and the database aims to
provide support for industry as well as educating decision makers and the public on the wide range of
activities currently ongoing. State champions in particular areas of fuel cells include Ohio and South
Carolina for fuel cell research, California for vehicles and infrastructure, New York for stationary FCs, and
Connecticut for the fuel cell industry. The Federal government has committed $1.2 billion over 5 years
to fuel cells, plus certain states have additional hydrogen and fuel cell funds (including $103m in Ohio,
$6m in California and $11m in Connecticut). Fuel cells could mean future good business opportunities
for states, and 15 states currently offer tax incentives for fuel cells and for fuel cell companies to locate
in their state. State activity appears to be moving the industry forward by laying the groundwork for
future widespread fuel cell adoption –including addressing codes and standards, co-operating with
utility authorities and zoning of both stationary fuel cells and hydrogen infrastructure for transport.

This one could apply to Loreto..

Al G - 11-6-2007 at 08:08 PM

:lol:

Still not what I am looking for, but maybe Loreto bay could use this:
Aki-San of the National Institute of Advanced Science and Technology (AIST), Japan, once again highlighted how far ahead of
the rest of the world Japan is in terms of residential fuel cell development and planning. AIST, in cooperation with Osaka Gas
and KRI, are working on integrating PEM and SOFC units, either as a hybrid mix of the two (a world fi rst?) or PEM stand alone
as mini-grids serving an apartment block or a number of homes. The 1kW units are operated in a system where they run in
series providing electricity and hot water to a number of residences and can be added to in a modular fashion as and when
needed. Interestingly this idea was extended to linking up a hydrogen grid in much the same modular fashion. Whilst the idea
is someway from being practical in the houses concepts tests have shown that it is close to being feasible now in apartment
buildings. Tests are currently underway in Osaka using this concept to provide around 70% of electricity and most of the hot
water of the apartments. Reductions in CO2 levels have also been recorded from this test with nearly 10% primary energy
reduction over the test period to date.

All for tonight...

Impressive PR.

MrBillM - 11-7-2007 at 09:56 AM

The question, however, was NOT whether or not The Governments and Industries are Working at bringing Hydrogen Fuel Cell Technology to market, but rather how close the technology is to being produced at an economically viable cost.

I have seen NOTHING to indicate positive evidence that such is the case.

This reminds me of a Discovery Channel segment I watched last night regarding Manned-Missions to Mars. There are Government Consortiums worldwide that are spending huge amounts of money in research to plan and build equipment for such a mission, but there are (so far) insurmountable (with current technology) obstacles to such a venture.

Regardless of the technology involved and the progress in developing the vehicles, the method of producing the Hydrogen at an effective competitive cost stands out as one of the major impediments.

Will all the questions be resolved ? Maybe, but only the youngest among us will see marketable product. And that's not a sure bet.

Al G - 11-7-2007 at 10:45 AM

In 1986 I began touting The commandor amiga 1000 as the future of man way of communnication...so in that sense you are right. Indeed it was 10-12 years before it was apparent that I was right. After that, the explosion that occurred was mind boggling.
We are at $100 oil and the top is not clear. You spoke of a trillion dollars...at todays standards that does not seem that much, if the world need is there...
True some of us will not see Fuel cell use, at a level we use oil today, but I feel for sure the 60 year olds will.
It dose not hurt anyone to be positive...Albert

Positive, but Realistic

MrBillM - 11-7-2007 at 04:22 PM

We'll see (given enough lifespan) who is right.

I'll be waiting.

Al G - 11-7-2007 at 05:28 PM

Amen MrbillM...I have invested heavily in it...my tomorrow is a stake...I cannot be wrong. Don't get me wrong I will not lose, because I was in early so I can take a big drop, but would like to drink all the pacifico I want :lol:

BajaDave - 11-9-2007 at 11:42 AM

As a couple of others have eluded to, an advantage with the MX60 Outback unit is it's internal buck converter, meaning you can use an array with a voltage up to 72 to charge a battery bank of any voltage, even 12. I have 3 130 watt cells that are wired in series to send a lower amperage (7.5) but higher voltage (52) feed to the MX60, which then converts it back the other way to 12 volts at higher amps. A HUGE advantage of this feature is to allow much smaller wire run from the combiner to the MX60, with lower losses. Copper is outrageously priced right now, so it's a pretty substantial savings for a 35' run.

reveiw of costco .com solar set

tortuga - 11-10-2007 at 09:33 AM

I will jump in here. I din't read all the posts here so sorry if this is redundent .
Certainly most of you guys are very experienced with solar , probably having large systems . Any ways all I want to say is that ,after looking around the internet , I found a 60 watt set at costco.com . I have bought two sets so far . One i have set up for our house I'm only running about a 100 or so watts which with the use of cfl 's has our kitchen and living room covered pretty well. About 500 sq. ft. is all. we have had a couple of power outages lately . It is cool to still have lights .
The other set we use when we are in Baja for our 24 ft. trailer. It has been totaly suffecient for our needs . Set it up and forget about it . The best part is I don't have Mrs. Tortuga on my case for running our gen set . Never have liked generators anyways ( feel guilty running one)
So to make a long story short . I would recomend this set to someone who doesn't want to invest lots of money or know much about the solar thing yet. It is all plug and play for $350.00 .
You will need deep cycle batteries . I bought walmarts trolling batts for $50.00 ea. I did find that most of the rv batteries are so called hybrids ( cca s ) etc. The trolling batteries actually are rated in amp hrs. 75 which I know are babies to you big guys but they work fine for our trailer.

Well thanks for your time and I am looking forward to being of grid in Los Barriles some day ( I guess I am already, Dugh!) I would like to check out some of the big systems you guys have down there. Also thanks for not putting more of a strain on their power grid and environment .
Tortuga
P.S. Did not mention earlier but the solar set I am refering to here is the sunforce brand

[Edited on 11-10-2007 by tortuga]

[Edited on 11-11-2007 by tortuga]

DSCF0334.JPG - 48kB

trolling battery

tortuga - 11-10-2007 at 09:34 AM

DSCF0353.JPG - 48kB

Walmart A-OK

MrBillM - 11-10-2007 at 10:01 AM

Right now, I have Five separate arrays and have been using the Walmart Deep-Cycle Trolling batteries on the Four Smaller ones with a total of Eight batteries in use. They are priced good, work well and seem to have a 3-4 year life cycle. No complaints.

Senoir Bill

tortuga - 11-10-2007 at 10:29 AM

Do you think or know if they are using solid lead plates in those things ? They seem heavier than the hybrid I have (interstate rv marine) Thanks Tortuga .
What is cool for me about this subject , is in my mind going to Baja California , is about getting by without power etc . Figuring out how to be selfsuffient while there . This subject speaks to all that . Now for most of us that have second homes there We can help the natural environment by being off grid . That is very exciting to me . As for you guys who are already . Right on ! I suppose also if there is a market for a technology then improvements in that technology will follow . I'll bet you guys who have been around solar for a while have seen improvements over the years . To bad people don't buy p.v. stuff like they buy computers and digital cameras !
Buen Dia , Tortuga

[Edited on 11-10-2007 by tortuga]

No Se !

MrBillM - 11-11-2007 at 10:35 AM

I checked the documentation I have and it doesn't specify the Cell composition. A cursory Net search produced negative results on that particular question. I did read on a Bass-Fishing site that they are the Number one selling battery in that class. That might be, of course, simply because Wal-Mart is so big AND they sponsor a Bass-Tournament yearly in the Everstart name.

They do seem to be pretty good, though. I read a lot of comments on the various "Bass" forums and they were all favorable.

If I ever run across the composition answer, I'll let you know.