BajaNomad - Build a fence?

Build a fence?

Bajamatic - 11-25-2007 at 01:41 PM

What Nomads think, bottom line.

DENNIS - 11-25-2007 at 01:42 PM

There arn't too many here that will involve themselves with the question. At least not here.

Bajamatic - 11-25-2007 at 01:43 PM

too bad. I would love to see the results.

Barry A. - 11-25-2007 at 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
There arn't too many here that will involve themselves with the question. At least not here.

Dennis-------Why? I find that very strange. Do others not have an opinion? :?:

Surely they do. Why would they not share it with us?

DENNIS - 11-25-2007 at 03:02 PM

Barry...

Well, I'm not sure. I do know that there have been threads in the past on the same subject and the same small handful of people have joined in. I think it gets too frantic for some and for sure the subject seems to go south eventually. It's kind of like a hot topic in a barroom.
Another reason is evident. Some people here on heated threads try to convert and convince others and that just doesn't seem to work for them. Most here are set in their ways and just want to hear themselves and be heard. They don't come here to learn. I'm probably the worst offender.
It is a good topic to rant and vent over, however.

Barry A. - 11-25-2007 at 03:34 PM

Good points, Dennis.

Personally I also am probably guilty, but perhaps don't actually understand what I am doing.

I usually feel obligated (in my mind) to comment if I believe that somebody else has said something that I strongly disagree with, or that may be mis-leading, and to not comment is to infer that I agree, or worse, to imply that what is said is actually true and that people will actually believe it if not challenged. That "thought" drives me nuts.

To comment to what I think are like-minded people (we all love Baja and Mexico) somehow gives me pleasure and comfort, and a sense of "doing something" with friends in a world gone awry, or so I sometimes perceive it to be.

barry

fishbuck - 11-25-2007 at 04:22 PM

I voted for the fence! And it's certainly not because I don't like the Mexican people because I do.
But that fence will show everybody that we mean business about imigration. We can't continue to let uncontrolled illegal imigration. That fence might not stop it completely but it will slow it down.
You what to here people scream? Listen to this. I'm in favor of revoking the US citizenship of children born to illegal imigrant parents. They say it will take an amendment of the constitution. I say let's get amendmenting! The sooner the better!

[Edited on 11-25-2007 by fishbuck]

Bajajack - 11-25-2007 at 06:10 PM

Build 10 fences if that's what it takes to keep em where they belong!

Bajaboy - 11-25-2007 at 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbuck
I voted for the fence! And it's certainly not because I don't like the Mexican people because I do.
But that fence will show everybody that we mean business about imigration. We can't continue to let uncontrolled illegal imigration. That fence might not stop it completely but it will slow it down.
You what to here people scream? Listen to this. I'm in favor of revoking the US citizenship of children born to illegal imigrant parents. They say it will take an amendment of the constitution. I say let's get amendmenting! The sooner the better!

[Edited on 11-25-2007 by fishbuck]

Would you agree to jail anyone caught hiring and/or employing an illegal immigrant? Say 10 years on the first offense? I think that might just deter the "pull" factor.

fishbuck - 11-25-2007 at 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Would you agree to jail anyone caught hiring and/or employing an illegal immigrant? Say 10 years on the first offense? I think that might just deter the "pull" factor.

I think that would help alot. But, I'm conflicted. I have a very good friend who has two illegal guys working for him. My buddy lives a good life but to me he is cheating. Still, I wouldn't want him in jail for it. Just play by the rules like I do. Ofcourse, I don't think he could make it playing by the rules. But he is like a brother to me so I would never put him in jail for it.
He tells me his workers are never going back and couldn't pay any fines or whatever to become legit. What can you do?

Bajaboy - 11-25-2007 at 06:44 PM

So your friend is breaking the law and so are the people entering the country illegally.....seems like both are at fault to me.

fishbuck - 11-25-2007 at 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
So your friend is breaking the law and so are the people entering the country illegally.....seems like both are at fault to me.

There is no doubt! But what if there were no illegal workers standing on the corner to hire? If he wanted to stay in business he would need to hire a legal worker. Sure it would cost more but the people who buy his service (hardscape cement work) can afford it.
Instead they pay on the cheap and then spend the money on a Beemer or some other rich ahole toy.

longlegsinlapaz - 11-25-2007 at 07:10 PM

Quote:

Would you agree to jail anyone caught hiring and/or employing an illegal immigrant? Say 10 years on the first offense? I think that might just deter the "pull" factor.

Not sure of the length of jail time, but I would vote for jail time...for each & every individual occurrence. But I'd be in greater favor of a fine of a minimum of $100,000 for each separate occurrence AND each individual illegal employed. With the fines going toward helping the non-criminal (beyond being in the USA illegally) become legal citizens.

vandenberg - 11-25-2007 at 07:20 PM

Quote:

This whole ****ry is conflicted.

Typo

vandenberg - 11-25-2007 at 07:27 PM

Quote:

But I'd be in greater favor of a fine of a minimum of $100,000

You realize this will only apply to a little guy who,most likely, don't even hold a contractors license and are just trying to make a living :?:

Doubt that anyone of them know, even in their mind, what $ 100.000.00 looks like.

Get real !!!

longlegsinlapaz - 11-25-2007 at 07:35 PM

Good incentive to stop hiring illegals then!!

I was being real! What would you be in favor of? Sliding scale of maybe 10% fine of a company's net worth?? It's going to take something drastic to resolve the problem. And it won't happen overnight!

Bajaboy - 11-25-2007 at 08:07 PM

Maybe we could just enforce the current laws and some problems might be solved. This is the current penalty although it is rarely enforced:

Penalties for Hiring Illegal Aliens
(INA Section 274A)

Fines beginning at no less than $250 and up to $10,000 per alien may be assessed for knowingly hiring an illegal alien. The amount of the fee escalates depending on whether there are repeated violations. If there is found to be a pattern or practice of violations, employers may be sentenced to up to six months of imprisonment.

longlegsinlapaz - 11-25-2007 at 08:16 PM

That'd be a good starting place....any suggestions on how to get the current laws enforced??

Bajafun777 - 11-25-2007 at 08:18 PM

Well, since I live on the border and know first hand how impacted we are and I support the fence. I also support the fine for hiring illegals and some jail time right along with the illegal getting some of the same. I had a brother-in-law put out of business in construction as he paid SS, unemployment, and taxes but those hiring illegals did not. He also paid his employees no less than $15 dollars an hour where the others paid so much cash a day, usually about $50 dollars so how do you compete??? Illegal means illegal and the employers as well as the employees must be legal. We undermind our own economy and our American jobs doing less that the legal way. Our high school kids can't even get part-time jobs because of the hiring of illegals and those using non-working passes to illegally work in the U.S.A. We keep shooting ourselves in the foot by letting this continue. Fence, Fine, and jail will stop this B.S. Mexico won't let you take a Mexican's job in Mexico, no way, permits to work take what 5 years if you are lucky??? Later-------------------- bajafun777

fishbuck - 11-25-2007 at 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
Maybe we could just enforce the current laws and some problems might be solved. This is the current penalty although it is rarely enforced:

Penalties for Hiring Illegal Aliens
(INA Section 274A)

Fines beginning at no less than $250 and up to $10,000 per alien may be assessed for knowingly hiring an illegal alien. The amount of the fee escalates depending on whether there are repeated violations. If there is found to be a pattern or practice of violations, employers may be sentenced to up to six months of imprisonment.

As a consumer, are you sure that every dollar you spend is 100% clean. When you buy something are you sure that there wasn't some illegal labor in there somewhere?
The guy working in the restuarant, or cleaning the restroom?
Stop them at the border and you will be sure. Use existing law to hunt down the ones already here illegally and send them back. Elininate the supply of illegal workers and employers will have not choice but to hire legal workers at a fair market pay with benefits and taxes.
And yes, use the law to eliminate the employers addiction to cheap illegal labor.
But secure the border.

wornout - 11-26-2007 at 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
That'd be a good starting place....any suggestions on how to get the current laws enforced??

In a perfect world, we would vote the incumbents out, but this not being a perfect world, we will just let the politicians go on doing what ever it is they do and we will just post notes on forums knowing nothing will get done. And so it goes.

DENNIS - 11-26-2007 at 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wornout

In a perfect world, we would vote the incumbents out, but this not being a perfect world, we will just let the politicians go on doing what ever it is they do and we will just post notes on forums knowing nothing will get done. And so it goes.

So true. And people are shocked when organizations like The Minutemen come along.

Hook - 11-26-2007 at 12:04 PM

I think we can handle alot of the remote border with a purely electronic fence that identifies the crossers and then puts the guys in the green and white cars on em. They'll figure it out that they cant cross without getting anywhere.

I worry that a more visible, expensive fence will make for complacency in enforcement..........and the complacency will allow the crosser to find ways over and through the conventional fence.

Of course the best solution is to encourage Mexico to provide conditions in Mexico that dont foster the crossing.

You know, little things like jobs and lack of corruption..............

Does anyone really WANT to cross hot desert at the mercy of coyotes and US policing? Many must feel they have no choice.

toneart - 11-26-2007 at 12:17 PM

Dennis is right in that this dog has been beaten to death (but not all the fleas have vacated).

One thing you could say about Nomads reducing the soup to a pile of bones at the bottom of the pot, is that by the time we are exhausted, we will have lots of ideas that the Government has probably never thought of. I think we should go commercial. We'd probably argue on how the proceeds are distributed though. :rolleyes:

Cypress - 11-26-2007 at 01:17 PM

A fence works both ways, it's how the gates work that counts.

DENNIS - 11-26-2007 at 01:21 PM

If I had a choice when going to the states, I think I'd rather deal with a fence than the gate.

DENNIS - 11-26-2007 at 07:23 PM

Pay them a living wage? With the cost of living rising like a rocket, what does that mean? The real problem is that every employer thinks he has to have a four hundred foot Chris Craft.

DENNIS - 11-26-2007 at 07:33 PM

No...... I worked hard all my life.

bacquito - 11-26-2007 at 08:26 PM

We need a guest worker program somewhat like the old Bracero program. If we continue with "the fence" as a solution, kicking illegals out of the country, putting illegals in jail, we will lose our image as a Country of Oportunity. Many Italians, Irish, Asian and other classes of immigrants came over here as illegals and came here because of the opportunities this country presented. Many "illegals" helped this country. We need immigrants!

Bajajack - 11-26-2007 at 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bacquito
We need a guest worker program somewhat like the old Bracero program. If we continue with "the fence" as a solution, kicking illegals out of the country, putting illegals in jail, we will lose our image as a Country of Oportunity. Many Italians, Irish, Asian and other classes of immigrants came over here as illegals and came here because of the opportunities this country presented. Many "illegals" helped this country. We need immigrants!

Times have changed, intelligent, educated, legal immigrants we can use.

Welfare sucking Illegal ******** dont fall into that category!

[Edited on 11-27-2007 by BajaNomad]

Cap - 11-26-2007 at 11:17 PM

Quote:

If you are reffering to the massive waves of immigration during the 19th century, the groups of people you refer to did not come here illegally. Many of them were welcomed here by differing sides of the cessation debate, and others brought against their will.

We do need immigrants just as we need all the workers we currently have. Unemployment is between 4-5 % nationwide and some states (mine) it is much lower. The relative quality of the folks we import is key. We should be careful setting anyone's wages. The market does this far better that well intentioned outsiders.

The biggest issue of course, is security. Our porous border is our greatest weakness.

The fence seems cruel because we are a kind and welcoming culture built on the backs of immigrant laborers. It is unfortunately nessesary for the health of our republic. It will cause temporary hardship on the people of mexico but eventually force change, and hopefully bring a stop to some of the worst corruption. It is not the right answer, it is the best available answer.

[Edited on 11-27-2007 by Cap]

TMW - 11-27-2007 at 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
But I'd be in greater favor of a fine of a minimum of $100,000

You realize this will only apply to a little guy who,most likely, don't even hold a contractors license and are just trying to make a living :?:

Doubt that anyone of them know, even in their mind, what $ 100.000.00 looks like.

Get real !!!

The meat packers that got caught are not small companies. The farms in the central valley are not small, there are three here in Bakersfield that employee over 5000 each. The company that was building the fence in San Diego that got caught using illegals was not small. I could go on, but the point is there are many companies that are not small that are using illegals.

David K - 11-27-2007 at 08:34 AM

Another way to look at it:

1) It's not the contractor's job to secure our borders from alien invaders.

A) Correct it is the federal government's (Border Patrol) job to prevent illegal entry and deport those who have violated the law.

2) Contractors want to hire good workers and do pay a good price for the work.

A) Yes, contractors just want to get their jobs completed and there is ready labor just waiting to be hired and work hard. It doesn't matter what nationality they are and if they are Americans that would be great. The pay is $10-$20 per hour and may also include meals typically.

Just a note: If you need work, just go to a nearby worker pick up location (Home Depot parking lot for example) and have a sign that says "I am an American" or "I have papers" the odds are you would be hired before any others. My point is that contractors don't seek out illegals and don't want to underpay anyone.

DENNIS - 11-27-2007 at 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
My point is that contractors don't seek out illegals and don't want to underpay anyone.

Probably true. It opens a seperate can of worms. What do you do to the home owner who wants help putting in a sprinkler system or build a fence? $100,000 fine? Take away his house? Make him a felon?
Just asking.

Contractor Hiring

MrBillM - 11-27-2007 at 10:23 AM

The proper legal course for a contractor to follow is avoid hiring undocumented labor and report to ICE every other contractor he's aware of that does. His law-breaking competitors are the cause of his problem, not the Government.

Should those violators lose their business, their homes, their freedom ? Sure. It's their choice. No sympathy.

As the DMV points out in their efforts to encourage neighbors to turn in scofflaws who are registering their vehicles illegally out of state, "they are stealing from those who DO obey the law".

Cap - 11-27-2007 at 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Another way to look at it:

1) It's not the contractor's job to secure our borders from alien invaders.

A) Correct it is the federal government's (Border Patrol) job to prevent illegal entry and deport those who have violated the law.

2) Contractors want to hire good workers and do pay a good price for the work.

A) Yes, contractors just want to get their jobs completed and there is ready labor just waiting to be hired and work hard. It doesn't matter what nationality they are and if they are Americans that would be great. The pay is $10-$20 per hour and may also include meals typically.

Just a note: If you need work, just go to a nearby worker pick up location (Home Depot parking lot for example) and have a sign that says "I am an American" or "I have papers" the odds are you would be hired before any others. My point is that contractors don't seek out illegals and don't want to underpay anyone.

A very reasonable and accurate analysis. You continue to bring a great perspective.

There is a little known fact that will never be widely reported. The two sides of this fight don't want anyone to know. In a lot of places the laborers are setting the wage. High quality labor commands a good price. Many small time contractors are paying as much, or more to undocumented workers as they would to a legal one. The simple fact is that there are no laborers left. The other thing to keep in mind is that these laborers work on a day to day basis, and demand a higher price than they could if a company had to keep them on the payroll. If you doubt me drive to the local Home depot and try to get someone to get in your truck for work. The first thing they will ask you is "how much you pay?"

The immigrant laborers are keeping inflation in check, through Productivity as well. If you would like to see interest rates skyrocket to keep up with inflation, not to mention make us less competetive in a world market, round up all of the illegal labor in this country and send them home.

I am not for unchecked immigration. In fact I would like to see our borders secured FIRST, then a sensible immigration policy that weighs the relative quality of a candidate, and gets the best and brightest from other countries in a timely manner. People already here, should be made to be able to work here legally but not be able to vote unless they move back to their countries of origin and get in line.

Our elected leaders are busy balancing the base, and pandering to a huge block of potential voters.

Cap - 11-27-2007 at 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
The proper legal course for a contractor to follow is avoid hiring undocumented labor and report to ICE every other contractor he's aware of that does. His law-breaking competitors are the cause of his problem, not the Government.

Should those violators lose their business, their homes, their freedom ? Sure. It's their choice. No sympathy.

As the DMV points out in their efforts to encourage neighbors to turn in scofflaws who are registering their vehicles illegally out of state, "they are stealing from those who DO obey the law".

Yeha spy on your neighbors! That's the answer.
A bit too orwellian for me.
Had any experience with sqealing on immigration law breakers? Depending on your location you will find that the local constablary will have bigger fish to fry than a small time contractor, with a couple of day laborers. Not to mention how do YOU know these guys are ilegal. Are you an official of government duties, and had probable cause to ask for the documents of these workers, then verified there status before you called in?

Oh I get it, all Mexicans are illegal :rolleyes:

jimgrms - 11-27-2007 at 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
But I'd be in greater favor of a fine of a minimum of $100,000

You realize this will only apply to a little guy who,most likely, don't even hold a contractors license and are just trying to make a living :?:

Doubt that anyone of them know, even in their mind, what $ 100.000.00 looks like.

Get real !!! [/quote
This little guy is also dishonest Why should he be allowed to prosper .buy not paying iu Insurance taxes ect while honest contractors have to .

Cap - 11-27-2007 at 02:37 PM

Quote:

This little guy is also dishonest Why should he be allowed to prosper .buy not paying iu Insurance taxes ect while honest contractors have to .

We finally get down to it.

Small time contractors, or business owners are not getting rich from the occaisional hiring of day labor. Furthermore, there are no skilled legal workers available. The point has been discussed previously. Instead of being jealous of the perceived prosperity of others, and how to punish them for it, let's figure out how to most humanely solve a problem.

bacquito - 11-27-2007 at 05:21 PM

We are a nation scared about terrorist and our peranoia regarding this issue can cause us harm. Regardless of a porous boarder or other security measures we can suffer a terrorist attack. If such an event occurs it will not lead to our downfall. If another 9/11 occurs I think we will be better prepared and in fact I think most Americans think that such an attack
will happen.

What will harm us is to lose our reputation as the Land of Opportunity.

For many years I worked as an Agricultural Inspector and inspected produce packed in the field. Many of the field workers I suspect were illegals. I have great respect for them. many left their houses at 3am in the morning, worked all day in the field and were respectful, appreciated the work and considered it an opportunity to be here.

Barry A. - 11-27-2007 at 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bacquito
We are a nation scared about terrorist and our peranoia regarding this issue can cause us harm. Regardless of a porous boarder or other security measures we can suffer a terrorist attack. If such an event occurs it will not lead to our downfall. If another 9/11 occurs I think we will be better prepared and in fact I think most Americans think that such an attack
will happen.

What will harm us is to lose our reputation as the Land of Opportunity.

For many years I worked as an Agricultural Inspector and inspected produce packed in the field. Many of the field workers I suspect were illegals. I have great respect for them. many left their houses at 3am in the morning, worked all day in the field and were respectful, appreciated the work and considered it an opportunity to be here.

Much you say here is true, but----- those "many" BROKE THE LAW--------without the rule of law we WILL lose our reputation, and our country as we know it-----our law system and our respect for it, is the primary thing that holds us above the rest of the world. Without it, we fail, eventually, and slip into chaos-------

THAT is what I am paranoid about, not terrorists.

No thanks----------secure the border, and then we will talk about what to do with the millions of ILLEGALS already here.

Cap - 11-27-2007 at 06:56 PM

Quote:

Wow! I thought we had become complacent, but I was unaware of how well complacency had taken root .

9/11 was a drop in the bucket, compared to what could happen. To think otherwise is completely naive. Our porous borders are the weakest link in the defense against a large scale terrorist attack. If you think I am incorrect, I invite you to fly the border with me, and let me show you some of the things I frequently witness.

That being said, I still want our well intentioned, hard working, brothers and sisters to come and partake of, and contribute to the "land of oppurtunity". Just please check in with us on your way through.

Then come and pick me up.

Dave - 11-27-2007 at 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cap

Quote:

Originally posted by bacquito
If you think I am incorrect, I invite you to fly the border with me, and let me show you some of the things I frequently witness.

I think you are incorrect.

I'll even let you off the hook. What things?

Cap - 11-27-2007 at 10:19 PM

Quote:

I think you are incorrect.

I don't want to encourage anyone to take advantage of them by posting them, and you probably wouldn't believe it until you saw it anyway.

DENNIS - 11-28-2007 at 07:02 AM

Awww, C'mon Cap........No teasing allowed. Give us something, please.

Cap - 11-28-2007 at 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Awww, C'mon Cap........No teasing allowed. Give us something, please.

I would but, the Border pilots I fly with would not be happy with me, and it would make their jobs more difficult and dangerous. I do fear some of the things I have seen being exploited. In fact flying into Brownsville Texas last time I brought some things to the attention of some BP Heli pilots that really got their attention.

My point in all of this, is that Border security is important and the main reason for substantial demarcation. This should be closely followed by a fair and humane immigration policy that values the contributions of the citizens of both countries, and builds a sense of appropriate cooperation. We need eachother.
I would like to see more pressure brought to bear on the Mexican government to halt corruption.

toneart - 11-28-2007 at 11:42 AM

Quote:

Yes, and we will all be up s**t creek without them. It is my contention that, in spite of all the political rhetoric, the government likes it just the way it is. :yawn:

vandenberg - 11-28-2007 at 12:44 PM

I believe that, even if we would erect a 100 foot wall from the Atlantic to the Pacific, it would only slow down illegals by a few percentage points. Somehow they will find a way accross, wether by tunnel or by ocean, but they will find a way.
As long as the disparity in wealth between the countries persists, there is no way of stopping it. ( My opinion ).
The very only way it is going to stop , if the 5% uppercrust in Mexico is willing to give up some of their absurdly obnoxious wealth and share it with the common man.
The country is dying to join the wealthy western 1st world, but none of those folks is willing to make any kind of sacrifice.
Seems to me, that in the long run, another revolution is inevitable. Just hope it happens after my time :biggrin:

DENNIS - 11-28-2007 at 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
The very only way it is going to stop , if the 5% uppercrust in Mexico is willing to give up some of their absurdly obnoxious wealth and share it with the common man.

Can you imagine how high the price of commodities in Mexico would rise if wages got to decent standards? Businesses don't compete. They just fix prices and squeeze till the udder is dry.
Look what happens to Costco Mexico. The one in Ensenada can't keep the same price on an item if the buying public shows the least bit interest. Prices are raised daily.
Competition in the Mexican marketplace is what will help the consumer as well as a more equitable distribution of wealth. This place has a long way to go.

bacquito - 11-28-2007 at 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

As I have mentioned before, I am for a "Barcero" type program and hopefully it will eliminate the criminal element. For many years most "illegals" have entered our country simply to provide a better opportunity for their family.
I am interested in seeing this country remain as a land of opportunity.
I do not agree with your emphasis on "many BROKE THE LAW". We are a compassionate nation-or at least we were!
We do have laws but many times we apply these laws with compassion-we do not apply laws rigidly.
I have understanding and compassion for the person who will break the law to better provide for his family.
We can spend untold millions of dollars to protect our borders but as long as the inequities occur between our nation and other countries and we are seen as a Land of Opportunity the influx of "illegals" will continue.

Gaining Control

MrBillM - 11-28-2007 at 04:53 PM

There is no doubt that illegals will continue to attempt entry as long as they think there is a chance. Our responsibility is to curtail that opportunity to the best of our abilities. If nothing else, it will decrease the numbers, especially if they try the desert during the summer.

The intensity felt on this issue is evident in the fact that watching any of the Cable News services and/or reading a major newspaper, there is DAILY coverage of immigration stories.

On a more humorous note, one of the Immigrant Rights people on MSNBC today said that the passage of stricter State laws was causing us to lose LEGAL minority residents. When queried by the MSNBC commentator "Why would that be" ? He replied that the Mexicans (his word) are a very close-knit, family oriented people and, when one of their relatives is forced to leave because he can't get a job, they leave too.

Even the LOC (Left-of-Center) News Flack didn't buy that one.

It's amazing the Crap these people shovel.