BajaNomad - Only for a point of reference

Only for a point of reference

Al G - 12-29-2007 at 04:57 PM

Copied from BWO...BCN cops are not the only crooked cops...

Robberies In Todos Santos - After another recent spate of robberies in our "Pueblo Magico," one household having been hit for the 3rd time, I'm thinking that a little publicity about the problem might light a fire under those in authority that may actually care about the reputation of Todos Santos and the possible adverse affect on tourism that such publicity will generate. I don't personally know the best avenues for generating this publicity, but at the very least the Gringo Gazette is pretty widely read as is the Calendario, and oh yeah, the LA Times. Anyway, if you can think of any way to spread word of this problem in the hopes of getting the police to actually try to stop the problem, please give it a try. I've sent an email to Carrie@GringoGazette.com so far. Thanks for your help, Karen Haley, khaley3893@hotmail.com, 612-120-8984, Todos Santos

Crime in Paradise ?

MrBillM - 12-29-2007 at 05:08 PM

Shocking, absolutely Shocking to find that property crimes exist in a Third-World country filled with Islands of First-World wealth.

What's the matter with people, anyway ? Aren't we supposed to live by the Golden Rule in loving harmony with our fellow beings ?

Well, maybe not.

Al G - 12-29-2007 at 05:20 PM

Good point MrBill...they made a major mistake allowing gringos to own land...they may just want rights too.

CaboRon - 12-29-2007 at 05:26 PM

They gave us the right to own land in order to get the money... if they want the money they should give us some rights with that.

This may not be a popular opinion..... but it is only right .

CaboRon

capn.sharky - 12-29-2007 at 06:02 PM

Property rights in Mexico are very high on the list. If the police were doing their job, these thieves would be apprehended and put in jail. Just because we are foreigners or guests in their country, does not give anyone the right to break in and steal from others. Forty years ago in CSL you could go fishing and leave your wallet in your room filled with money and it would not be touched. Locks are made to keep people honest. With the influx of workers from other parts of Mexico this has changed. It really does not matter how much your house costs or if you are rich or poor---people should not steal from you. I stand with Al G. and Caboron on this issue.

4baja - 12-29-2007 at 06:34 PM

here here sharky and shame on you mr bill, just because we own property shouldnt mean to be a target. we all work hard for our money and all treat the locals with the most respect. thanks for the time.

DENNIS - 12-29-2007 at 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
They gave us the right to own land in order to get the money... if they want the money they should give us some rights with that.

Ron....With all due respect, we have the rights which our immigration status guarantees. Limited but, stated.

Al G - 12-29-2007 at 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
They gave us the right to own land in order to get the money... if they want the money they should give us some rights with that.

Ron....With all due respect, we have the rights which our immigration status guarantees. Limited but, stated.

Dennis, I am confused...usually we see eye to eye...do the limited rights the immigration status guarantees have anything to do with justice :?:

gnukid - 12-29-2007 at 08:56 PM

Please be specific about the crimes, places, dates, items etc... to the extent possible, the victims should be the ones broadcasting the message, loudly, with the emotion due to a robbery victim.

Al G - 12-29-2007 at 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Please be specific about the crimes, places, dates, items etc... to the extent possible, the victims should be the ones broadcasting the message, loudly, with the emotion due to a robbery victim.

I am not a victim yet..Please read the original post...or read the BWO..

CaboRon - 12-31-2007 at 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
They gave us the right to own land in order to get the money... if they want the money they should give us some rights with that.

Ron....With all due respect, we have the rights which our immigration status guarantees. Limited but, stated.

Dennis, I am confused...usually we see eye to eye...do the limited rights the immigration status guarantees have anything to do with justice :?:

We should have equal rights under the law...... And that includes protection from outlaws.... among other things.

CaboRon

bajadedom - 12-31-2007 at 10:01 AM

Where guns are outlawed - only outlaws will have guns.......

Shame on ME ?

MrBillM - 12-31-2007 at 11:06 AM

I love that word "Should".

Yes, we SHOULD be protected by the law. Yes, we SHOULD be treated equally. Yes, the Police SHOULD enforce the laws and they SHOULD try to roundup the Bad Guys.

No argument there.

However, Life doesn't always work out the way it SHOULD, especially in a third-world environment where endemic corruption at all levels of government is commonplace.

I don't excuse it or condemn it. I simply accept it as a fact of life and conduct my affairs accordingly.

Al G - 12-31-2007 at 11:35 AM

I knew what you meant originally...and again I agree 99%.
I even agree with "I conduct my affairs accordingly."
Being a defeatist is not an element of life I can live with...so "I simply accept it as a fact of life" is not agreeable with me...never.
This attitude is what holds Mexico and it's people in the grip of corruption. Selling it's land to others may be the thing that will free Mexicans of this disease...at lease at the local level where the gringos are. Gringos can not vote, but they can affect the the feelings of the people who do. No government is corruption free.

gnukid - 12-31-2007 at 11:57 AM

In Nations around the world are problems of corruption, some obvious and stated and others hidden deep in cofiers of government waste. In any locale, to report a robbery one needs evidence and facts, as demonstrated by the reporting of the Webber robbery while camping, a gunshot hole in the window, facts go a long way. Lack of facts force the cause to be stopped short encouraging government malfeasanse.

I love stories, I enjoy to tell them, I imagine many people enjoy hearing them and participating in their retelling, though in the case of dealing with governments one must choose simple points of fact and pursue these points relentlessly, thus forcing those to act, who would prefer not to.

Avoid the trap of blaming others, less inclined or less talented than yourself to report your facts. Many officials, police in particular have no skills in reporting, writing or even pen and paper nor gas to make the drive. Combine the lack of inclination with the weight of fear of retribution, resulting in total incompetence or perfect incompetence depending on your view. Either way the the benefits to police work are few, except that derived directly from victim requesting action.

Therefore, gather your reports, the evidence, photos, make a booklet, make copies, add the names of the police and officials you encounter, repeat. Go directly to the office of policia minesterial, poder federal judicial and make your reports directly to the office of robo a casa. Follow through, and encourage, dont give up and don't get mad, a clear report is the direct path to action fueled by indirect tax-cash.

Imagine you are a pioneer, demonstrating a system never before seen or imagined.

Al G - 12-31-2007 at 12:09 PM

Thanks Gnukid...good info. Tell me do the Mexican citizens need to follow this path too?

gnukid - 12-31-2007 at 07:54 PM

Some do, many don't for fear of more trouble with the cops, and those who do keep visiting the police to check in on a regular basis over time, like once every week--as though you adding evidence, those who really want action pay the day of the robbery to get the stuff back and get guys put away. The cops know exactly who the bad guys are, they are in constant contact, you need to pay to put the guy away since there is no room in jail or money to feed minor criminals. If you can bust them with evidence of selling drugs that would be critical, which is really hard to do.

I think if you are really mad you can just start paying people and the problem will alter into a another problem. I guess insurance for robberies is worthwhile if you can afford it.

ElFaro - 12-31-2007 at 08:51 PM

It may be great to gather evidence and hand it over to the local investigators but you might consider the following story...I read this in the local newspaper...

A few years ago a man raped a young women in Tijuana. The police were called. Evidence was collected definitely connecting the man with the rape of the woman. The woman pressed charges against the man. A trial date was set. At the trial the defense atty. for the man asked the
prosecutor to present their evidence. The prosecutor could not produce any of the evidence because it had been removed from the evidence file and destroyed! How does this happen? Well the man accused of the rape knew a secretary or office assistant in the investigations office and
paid them to get rid of the evidence. Since the prosecution could not produce the judge had to let the man walk.

My point?...have you ever heard of the word PARADIGM?...it means "a way of thinking".

A number of people on this board speak lofty words on what a victim should or should not do in Mexico after a crime is forced on them. It is because we all view these situations through the PARADIGM grid that we unconsciously carry with us. Namely the U.S. justice system that we are accustomed to with all its warts. When I read the rape story above myself for the 1st time it changed my PARADIGM of how the Mexican D.A. offices MAY conduct themselves when handling evidence.

gnukid - 12-31-2007 at 10:45 PM

All over people don't do their jobs, its the norm, its practically expected and guarenteed that in Mexico they will not prosecute robbers. So, two options, the preferred is don't call the cops, they will only extort more money, on the other hand the world is changing, you could be a catalyst. If you want to make government anywhere work, use prolific reporting of specific problems, make copies of the reports, use the anonymous broadcasting, internet, tv and local news print and gently add to the bottom of the report a summary log of the interaction with officials, and send the report to various entities.

Never trust that the person responsible will do their job without the threat that they will be guilty themselves for not acting. Gentle force of action. Now in Mexico, I believe, Mexicans are looking to outsiders to demonstrate this method which most of us are aware of.

How would you get your own city council to act? By threat of embarrassment, threat of law, dogged pursuit.

Oh the third option is private vigilante security, gated communities, also with limited success.

gnukid - 12-31-2007 at 10:59 PM

I might add that in the quest to clean my neighborhood, they have arrested and released and arrested and released Chino--the bad guy, his wife, and his extended gang so many times now it really is silly, laughable, he still commits crimes daily and spends a few hours in jail at best once a week. But the bad guys are hiding more, Chino gave up his home, the pressure is building from family and government, though still it follows a simple game, where the bad guys jump a fence when possible and hide under a mother's bed while the cops stand outside even with orders for apprehension. Hahaha I dont believe its incompetance as much as a lack of infrastructure of rule of law. I believe these facts will lead to a more permanent solution soon.

Von - 12-31-2007 at 11:07 PM

Put some Chineese traps and a cover over some jagged bamboo that will take care of the problem dont worry just do it! remember five ft deep is the recomendation for a sure catch

David K - 1-1-2008 at 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
I might add that in the quest to clean my neighborhood, they have arrested and released and arrested and released Chino--the bad guy, his wife, and his extended gang so many times now it really is silly, laughable, he still commits crimes daily and spends a few hours in jail at best once a week. But the bad guys are hiding more, Chino gave up his home, the pressure is building from family and government, though still it follows a simple game, where the bad guys jump a fence when possible and hide under a mother's bed while the cops stand outside even with orders for apprehension. Hahaha I dont believe its incompetance as much as a lack of infrastructure of rule of law. I believe these facts will lead to a more permanent solution soon.

Sounds like you need to 'make friends' with the judge!

ElFaro sounds very accurate here... afterall Baja is NOT the US of A....

In Mexico, even though we are 'technically' afforded rights as foreign visitors (or residents)... It still is Mexico, land of bribes and favors. No blind justice, no real rights or protection, no ability to protect oneself with a firearm.

Young, healthy Cornel Crawford, 'Chopy' on the Internet(formerly 'elsurfoloco' or ESL) who was born a Mexican citizen to American parents had owned the land at Cabo Pulmo and fought an endless battle to keep squatters off his property... The government officials refused to help him and it cost him many thousands of dollars just try and have his property rights respected... He wouldn't give up... So he was silenced, forever.

Chopy and I at BBBB-4 in Sept., 2002. He was found dead near San Jose del Cabo, just 9 months after this photo was taken.

His obit:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 7-4-2003 at 01:35 PM

Chopy's obituary in the High Country Press. Montana

Cornel Harrison Crawford, beloved son of Tim Crawford, died June 12, at his home in San Jose del Cabo, Mexico, of natural causes

Cornel was born on August 30, 1961, in Mexico City, to Thomas H. Crawford III and Karol Wallace Crawford.
Cornel attended the University of San Diego. His passion for surfing, at which he excelled, took him to southern Baja, where he lived for the past ten years. He also spent time helping his father with the family ranch near Manhattan.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now I ask, how does a 41 year old die of 'natural causes' (in Mexico)???

More on Chopy: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=584#pid2297

[Edited on 1-1-2008 by David K]

gnukid - 1-2-2008 at 12:37 PM

Over the last four days the policia minesterial have slept in the cars and maintained a 'vigilence' in the streets here in our neighborhood. It was a simple and a very nice gesture that had an affect. Chino was gone the whole time.