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Red Tide

Pompano - 1-24-2008 at 12:44 PM

A few of us went to Hotel Buenaventura beach cafe last night for dinner...just north of Playa Requeson in Conception Bay. You readily 'noticed' the red tide. We pitched some small pebbles and sand and created a nice lightshow.

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Cypress - 1-24-2008 at 12:50 PM

Pompano. Thanks for the tip. :spingrin:

Gonna have to take the kayaks out for a night time adventure.

Did your crew find any treasure with the metal detectors?

vandenberg - 1-24-2008 at 01:09 PM

Roger,
Is that the same red tide that makes mussels and clams take in the toxins and make them dangeroud to eat ? See it regular here in Loreto, but was never sure if it was the same stuff that we see up north of the California coast.

Pompano - 1-24-2008 at 02:29 PM

Cypress....like previous attempts, we failed to find the fabled Cortez gold known to be hidden on one these islands, but we are narrowing the search. We did find beautiful seashells and starfish, though and they are treasures also.

On one detector outing in my back yard I did find an old metal stirrup. I am convinced that it fell from a certain famous conquistador's saddle....

Vandenburg....'red tide' really has nothing to do with tides, but is an algal bloom occuring in the seas that can be white, brown, etc...with the most common coloration being reddish. During this bloom it is definitely not recommended to eat any clams/shellfish that siphon this through their digestive systems..it can make you violently ill. I have never heard of anyone dying from eating red tide clams, but I was pretty sick about 30 years ago from eating some chocolates from Playa Requeson during a bloom. I thought my appendix had burst that night and it took a couple days to fully recover. I assume the 'red tides' of northern California would be similar organisms and is treated with the same precautions. Nobody I have heard of really knows for sure what causes these red tides or blooms. Some recent theories state they are manmade, but history records many red tides during the Spanish explorations in Florida and the Gulf. Maybe somebody else can weigh in here with further information and personal experiences.

castaway$ - 1-25-2008 at 10:31 PM

I've seen that stuff down by Pulpito when I was YT fishing in March, lots of whales around they don't eat it do they?

bajadedom - 1-25-2008 at 11:04 PM

No deaths from Red Tide in humans but it can be toxic to marine mammals,fish,and birds. Caused by buildup of nutrients causing algae blooms which can be various colors, not always red - definitely don't eat anything from the sea during an outbreak, you will most likely get very sick. Can occur naturally and some scientists believe they are also caused by releases of nutrient substances into the water by man. - google info

Skipjack Joe - 2-20-2008 at 01:09 PM

Today's local paper had an article on large dead zones deep off the oregon coast. These result due to large algal blooms that filter feeding fish are not able to consume in time due to their enormous numbers. They sink to the bottom. There, the bacteria go to work and due to the enormous biomass profilerate and use up all the oxygen in the process. The absence of oxygen kills off all the remaining life.

These dead zones contain skeletons and remains of fish and invertebrates that were part of healthy communities earlier on.

These blooms are due to nutrient laden waters generated by either (a) increased sewage or other organic matter or (b) increased upwelling due to global warming.

This is really the same phenomenon that happens with red tides and has the same results. Last summer I witnessed a red tide in the abreojos area that completely inundated the coyote estero. I don't know how much damage it did but it couldn't have been good for the critters.

I like to think of it as it relates to my fish tank. To stay healthy all needs to be balanced. Once I start overfeeding them the water chemistry changes and the fish start to stress out and die off. The same occurs if the water isn't changed often enough to remove the waste matter released by them.

Bajagypsy - 2-20-2008 at 01:24 PM

When we were down last november with the gypsy kids, I told them it was fairy dust, and they played and played at night, making a spectacular light show.

Osprey - 2-20-2008 at 02:30 PM

Just keep reminding yourselves that Ulloa named this The Vermillion Sea because it was so blooming red (pun intended) and I'll wager if the water was too warm or full of human waste it was not caused by global warming or poor city sewage treatment hundreds of years ago.

Skipjack Joe - 2-20-2008 at 02:51 PM

Red tide existed before man made his presence felt on this planet. I've read that one of the scourges that Moses placed on the Egyptions where he turned the sea red with his staff is believed by some to be the same red tide.

Natural conditions were often right for these algal blooms. But there is no question that man's activities now contributes to many red tides now. If you've ever fished inside Long Beach or LA Harbor it becomes very obvious. The red tide there is year round. It never leaves the harbor. Red tide occurs every year in King's harbor at Redondo also. How often have you seen red tide at Catalina Island?

As for global warming contributing to red tide. That's the report that came out of University of Oregon. Of course, if you don't believe in the phenomena in principle then there's no point in talking about that.

Gadget - 2-20-2008 at 03:05 PM

The global warming theory:
I love theories, science based on no science or fact, only theories.
Theoretically I do not believe in theories, not based on any factual evidence proven or otherwise.
I just choose to based on a complete lack of any fact by which to base my unproven idea that I do not believe in theories.
Other than that...its all good
Burrr, its hot today :?:

Dead Zones

Sharksbaja - 2-20-2008 at 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Today's local paper had an article on large dead zones deep off the oregon coast. These result due to large algal blooms that filter feeding fish are not able to consume in time due to their enormous numbers. They sink to the bottom. There, the bacteria go to work and due to the enormous biomass profilerate and use up all the oxygen in the process. The absence of oxygen kills off all the remaining life.

These dead zones contain skeletons and remains of fish and invertebrates that were part of healthy communities earlier on.

These blooms are due to nutrient laden waters generated by either (a) increased sewage or other organic matter or (b) increased upwelling due to global warming.

Skip, I/we have been following this phenomenom now for several years. We are fortunate to continuously get updates on this from researchers from the Hatfield Marine Science center, NOAA, our local aquarium and OSU grad students.
I was surprised to read in your post that they have discovered the source of the "dead zone".
Here is what I know. The first event happened perhaps 4-5 years ago just south and west of Newport OR. Since then it has occured almost with regularity every year since.
The "dead zone" is devoid of oxygen. This is extremely unusual for a the region as there is a constant upwelling of nutrients rising up from the edge of the Continental Shelf from the deep waters offshore.
I would like to share a first hand account provided by a local diver friend who was coincidentally diving on one of those days in a "dead zone".
" We were diving near a well-know rock pile located a couple miles offshore in 40-60 feet of water. The first thing that shocked us as we entered the water was the clarity. I've never seen the water so clear. Visibility was incredible and we could see our anchor rope all the way down. This is shocking to anyone who dives these waters. Typically 6-8 feet is the norm due to the biologically enriched water.
As we dove to to bottom to explore the crystal clear environment we were amazed to see no animals whatsoever. We decided to explore further to see if we could locate a fish or an invertebrate.
Here is where it gets spooky. We found the fish alright. They had moved away from the "dead zone'. They had migrated collectively to an area running along the zone apparently richer in oxygen.
Imagine this, fish stacked up like cordwood. One stacked upon the other and rockfish of different species all lined up like someone had placed them there. Some places stacked up 2-3 feet high, you could swim up and poke em in the face. They were like drugged or something. They just lay there faces all in a row waiting there patiently"

This was two years ago. I have discussed this with authorities of this area and they were remiss that they could not figure out what was happening. It is a very short term event lasting 2-4 days. The area involved here is quite small. In fact one guesstimate says a swath 3-4 miles long and perhaps 200 yds wide. Others say it's somewhat bigger but the data is not plentiful.
Skip, I'd like to read that article. I have my own suspicions on what is causing this and hopefully this is just a natural event not related to humans.
Five years ago Newport upgraded and extended the discharge pipes for the treated waste water. At about the same time GP(Georgia Pacific) replaced their large outfall pipe and extended it as well.
It is no secret that areas adjacent to these outfalls have/has dire effects on the immediate area. My theory is that our local shallow "dead zone" is man-made. The story seems odd to me in that algal blooms like that of shallow warm water species (Pyrodinium sp. Gymnodinium sp.) or Lingulodinium sp. that causes So. Cals' infamous red tides are actuated by a variety of parameters most importantly, warm water and available nutrients. The nutrient level(s) in the PNW are consistantly high. Cold water blooms happen in the N. Atlantic(Alexandrium fundyense) but are not common but a major bloom did occur in 05' .
Regardless of the accuracy of the report, something strange and of serious signifigance is going on. I'll sniff around a little see what I can find out from OSU folks.
Thanks for post Skipjack.

tp - 2-20-2008 at 05:18 PM

well, it's not really a phaenomenon, it's the greay and black water from all over those beaches along Conception Bay which are running directly into the bay.
Algies are growing in greay water (common word: pee) much better than in clear oceanic water.
At least those algies which are somehow toxic. Not to mix up w/ cold water algies/
Conception Bay is a 'Cloakee' per se. And that causes that *&^*&&^.
And it smells like cow ****. You will experiance the smell while driving along Conception Bay on the Cerretera (MX1)

[Edited on 2-21-2008 by Hose A]

Bob and Susan - 2-20-2008 at 05:39 PM

the water looked clear here today...

tp - 2-20-2008 at 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
the water looked clear here today...

Looking clear is one thing. Knowing about facts another. Can you see chemicals in your "clear" water? No you can't.
Can you determine the percentage of sewage in the waters of Conception Bay? No you can't.
Do you have a facility for to treat your black water (your ****) ? No you don't. You just have a sewage tank and the grey water runs into Conception Bay. Right or wrong?

So who is wondering about stinky, toxic algies in Conception bay?
If the waters look "clear" @ your place, just drive down towards Burro Beach or Coyote beach or even further towrds the end of Conception bay.
It stinks ..... well sewage is "clear water" ........ not to my understanding.

[Edited on 2-21-2008 by Hose A]

Sharksbaja - 2-20-2008 at 07:54 PM

Quote:

So who is wondering about stinky, toxic algies in Conception bay?

I am wondering. Toxic algaes? Pray tell!
Do you really possess the knowledge to make such a profound statement? Are you sure they are toxic?
The loss of sea life due to habitat distruction and/or water quality in the Bay of Concepcion pales in comparison to the amount of damage done by an indescriminate fishing policy that predates any amount of bio-distruction from effluent or discharge.
Fortunately the sea is very deep out there and recharge and cleansing takes place. I have been on or around much of the Bay including the area near Mulege. The stench you smell I would suggest is from low tide detritus and the subsequent die-off of small organisms.
Sand filters are very efficient at containing coloform and myriad other pollutants. You should not rush to judge others just by their location.
Do you eat the prawns from the Sea of Cortes?

tp - 2-20-2008 at 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja

Quote:

So who is wondering about stinky, toxic algies in Conception bay?

What please?? The sea is very deep in Conception Bay?
Well, my grandmother is the youngest teenager on the block.

O,.K. I have to admit, no scientific research is made. But algies growing on sewage are mostly (not always) toxic.

And who is going fishing in the bay?
Only those who are living deep inside the bay.
Out of Mulege no Mexican fisherman and no Gringo is stearing the boat into the bay.

And Yes, I'm eating what's harvested in the Sea of Cortez.
I'm a frequent customer @ the fishcamp But eat nothing out of the bay.
Did you ever go claming inside the bay? Coyote or Posdade maybe?
Do it and get sick and you know what this thread is all about.

Come on, tell me only one single house @ the beaches of Conception Bay who has a facility to treat black water. Everybody living there pees and ***** naturally. And all that runs untreated into the bay. Just out of the sewaga tank. Only one house you need to tell me - not an area like Coyote / Santispac / Burro / Posada etc.- having a facility. If you can do that I pay you your next dinner if you stay in Mulege. Restaurant of your choice exept the Serenidad.

So, as a return, as you can't name any facility, will you pay me a dinner?
And why are facility plants build in the U.S. ??? According to your statement, sand is a sufficiant filter for all the **** U.S Citizens are producing? You wanna tell me that you don't need a grease filter requested by your city for your restaurant's greay water?

Comon.......................

[Edited on 2-21-2008 by Hose A]

Skipjack Joe - 2-20-2008 at 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja

Skip, I'd like to read that article. I have my own suspicions on what is causing this and hopefully this is just a natural event not related to humans.

Here it is, from today's Chronicle:

Peering into the murky depths, Jane Lubchenco searched for sea life, but all she saw were signs of death.

Video images scanned from the seafloor revealed a boneyard of crab skeletons, dead fish and other marine life smothered under a white mat of bacteria. At times, the camera's unblinking eye revealed nothing - a barren undersea desert in waters renowned for their bounty of Dungeness crabs and fat rockfish.

"We couldn't believe our eyes," Lubchenco said, recalling her initial impression of the carnage brought about by oxygen-starved waters. "It was so overwhelming and depressing. It appeared that everything that couldn't swim or scuttle away had died."

Upon further study, Lubchenco and other marine ecologists at Oregon State University concluded that that the undersea plague appears to be a symptom of global warming. In a study published in the journal Science, the researchers note how these low-oxygen waters have expanded north into Washington and crept south as far as the California state line. And, they appear to be as regular as the tides, a cycle that has repeated itself every summer and fall since 2002.

"We seem to have crossed a tipping point," Lubchenco said. "Low-oxygen zones off the Northwest coast appear to be the new normal."

Although scientists continue to amass data and tease out the details, all signs in the search for a cause point to stronger winds associated with a warming planet.

If this theory holds up, it means that global warming and the build-up of heat-trapping gases are bringing about oceanic changes beyond those previously documented: a rise in sea level, more acidic ocean water and the bleaching of coral reefs.

Low-oxygen dead zones, which have doubled in number every decade and exist around the world, have a variety of causes.

A massive dead zone off Louisiana is created each spring by a slurry of nutrient-rich farm runoff and sewage that flows out the Mississippi River, causing algae to bloom riotously, die and drift to the bottom to decompose. Bacteria then take over. In the process of breaking down the plant matter, they suck the oxygen out of the seawater, making it unable to support most forms of sea life.

Off Oregon, the dead zone appears to form because of changes in atmospheric conditions that create the oceanic river of nutrient-rich waters known as the California Current.

The California Current along the West Coast and the similar Humboldt Current off Peru and Benguela Current off South Africa are rarities. These powerful currents account for only about 1 percent of the world's oceans but produce 20 percent of the world's fisheries.

Their productivity comes from wind-driven upwelling of nutrient-rich waters from the deep. When those waters reach the surface and hit sunlight, tiny ocean plants known as phytoplankton bloom, creating food for small fish and shellfish that in turn feed larger marine animals up the food chain.

What's happening off Oregon, scientists believe, is that as land heats, winds grow stronger and more persistent. Because the winds don't go slack as they used to do, the upwelling is prolonged, producing a surplus of phytoplankton that isn't consumed and ultimately dies, drifts to the sea floor and rots.

"It fits a pattern that we're seeing in the Benguela Current," said Andrew Bakun, a professor at the University of Miami's Pew Institute for Ocean Science who wasn't part of the Oregon study. "It's reasonable to think these hypoxic and anoxic zones will increase as more greenhouse gases build up in the atmosphere."

The Benguela Current has seen sporadic dead zones. There, rotting clumps of algae have released clouds of hydrogen sulfide gas that smell like rotten eggs and poison sea life. Residents along the coast of South Africa and Namibia have witnessed waves of rock lobsters crawl onto shore to escape the noxious gases.

Bakun considers the Benguela, the world's most powerful current, to be a harbinger of changes in other currents. His theory is that warm, rising air over the land makes upwelling more frequent and more intense. The phenomenon, he said, is complicated by decades of heavy fishing that has reduced schools of sardines to a tiny fraction of their former abundance.

Not enough fish remain to consume phytoplankton before it dies and settles on the bottom, creating an anoxic dead zone.

The size of the Oregon zone has fluctuated. In 2006, it was the largest ever measured, covering an expanse slightly larger than Rhode Island. Last year, it was smaller but detected over a longer stretch of coastline.

To make sure the phenomenon was actually new, Oregon State marine ecologist Francis Chan reconstructed data from water sampling at 3,100 stations dating to 1950.

He found that low-oxygen areas have long existed in deeper waters, but there was virtually no evidence until recently of hypoxic waters in prime fishing waters, which extend down to 165 feet.

"It's pretty clear this is unprecedented," Chan said. "It's never been detected since we began to measure oxygen levels."

kodiak - 2-20-2008 at 09:28 PM

We saw the red tide while staying at Santispac. Also, we saw a bunch of dead puffer fish washed up on the shore line. Not sure if it was caused by the tide or if there is another reason.???

Red Tide

Vince - 2-20-2008 at 10:30 PM

Don't worry about red tide, it looks and smells the same as when I first started going there in 1961 by boat from Guymas. The organism that causes it smells like dead fish when in high concentrations (Gonulax), but it is beautiful at night with the heightened and brilliant phosphorescence when disturbed by a boat , swimmer or fish. Not much has changed except the netters have removed all the good fish.

Sharksbaja - 2-20-2008 at 10:39 PM

Quote:

Not enough fish remain to consume phytoplankton before it dies and settles on the bottom, creating an anoxic dead zone.

This doesn't make any sense to me. I don't buy this theory.

tp, are you daft? I said sea not bay. Are you really serious about everyones' raw sewage just running off into the bay? Are you familiar with all the techniques employed at leeching grey water.
Yes, sand fiters are required in many locations with high water tables. No? Good, no good Mr Expert.
A pro at cooking and sewage disposal in Baja. I'll bet more than that! :bounce:

Hey Bob, I ran into a turd out in front of your place. Was it yours? There was no tp around. Did you intentionally name yerself tp because yer so full of chiite?

Yer just a troll with an attitude, go away please.
I won't play this game no mo.

Skipjack Joe - 2-21-2008 at 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja

Quote:

Not enough fish remain to consume phytoplankton before it dies and settles on the bottom, creating an anoxic dead zone.

This doesn't make any sense to me. I don't buy this theory.

I agree with you that that reasoning is a bit suspect. The idea that to much upwelling causes blooms followed by dead zones seems to be the opposite of what you'd expect. After all the El Nino effect in South America causes dieoffs due to a LACK of upwelling followed by insufficient nutrients.

Then to tie it all with increased winds due to global warming. I suppose it makes sense but I would like to see the data that drove these conclusions.

The conclusion that large amounts of organic matter causes blooms, however, is on solid ground and has been known for at least 40 years now. But this summer's red tide at abreojos just doesn't make sense to me. I mean, we're not talking about a Santa Monica Beach with a half a million people living along it's shoreline. It's not a harbor or a bay and has good flushing.

Sharksbaja - 2-21-2008 at 12:35 AM

Yep, phosphates. nitrates and the like have been doing damage for decades. I remember when the kelp die-off in PV during the seventies was due mostly from the proliferation of chemical-loving sea urchins.
It's frightening though in terms of rapid change. The cold water rejects change. Where a seafloor takes ten to twenty years to repair itself after dragging, a cold water environment could take a hundred.

[Edited on 2-21-2008 by Sharksbaja]

Bob and Susan - 2-21-2008 at 11:37 AM

the turd was not ours...sorry

we have a system that "perks up" and plants "eat" the nitrogen

the tanks and the 400 feet of leach lines are actually above the ground

the grey water feeds the plants

soon we are getting some paspalum (sp) grass for the base of the "island" to eat more sewage

yes there are bad bad septic systems in the bay...

its sure hard to correct these problems when there is NO water treatment plant available

everyone just needs to talk to one neighbor at a time and explaine what needs to be done to keep the bay clean