BajaNomad - Rock Writing ---

Rock Writing ---

DianaT - 1-28-2008 at 10:21 AM

I enjoy old native american rock and cave paintings and have done some pretty good hiking to see some---

I love the autograph rocks on some of the old wagon train trails etc. I enjoy reading them.

The drawings on the walls of old buildings like the old prison in Mulege tell part of the history and are great, IMHO

I really enjoyed the walls of the New York subway (only saw the pictures) before they were painted over.

There are some designated graffiti walls that I really enjoy.

BUT, I really dislike the modern writings on rocks in places like Catavina. But then again, some of the modern advertising is creative.

I detest modern graffiti that just shows up, especially if it is on my property here in Imperial Beach---it gets painted over fast.

There is a lot more, but that is the idea---OH, BTW, this is not coming from someone with too much time on her hands, but from someone who is avoiding doing some mundane chores. Besides, it is Nena's fault for posting those pictures of the Mulege Prison. It again raised my unanswered questions.

The final question for me is, when do writing and pictures before historical and interesting, and when does graffiti become story telling and art???

Diane

[Edited on 1-28-2008 by jdtrotter]

Osprey - 1-28-2008 at 10:46 AM

That is a good/interesting question. John Wesley Powell who first explored the Grand Canyon in 1869 had only one arm. The Ute Indians who helped him stay alive when he left the canyon also killed a couple of his party when they quit his team. I've seen their rock art showing him (minus one arm) and some other drawings that were cuss words for white eyes. Not fit for this board. That was 140 years ago -- probably not enough time for true antiquities. After reading "The Rocks Begin to Speak" I could actually follow along, find things the Indians were trying show others in the area. I think stoning would be a proper punishment for marring true rock art like the stuff around Cataviña.

BAJACAT - 1-28-2008 at 10:47 AM

So you think in a few years, this could be history,or art.
Like if I care that this people where here,and have a urge of leaving somenthing to remember them.think about this, when all this rock art was happening 10,000 years ago,,did the peolpe that make them where seen as vandals writting in the rocks and walls of caves.

Grafitti rock.JPG - 50kB

DianaT - 1-28-2008 at 10:58 AM

Osprey---interesting. Also, I certainly also detest the marring of old rock art.

Bajacat---not all of what is accepted as a part of the historical record or as art is very old. I agree with you that the rock you show is ugly, but will someone in the far future think so?

As one of my anthropology professors once said, if there appears to be no real explanation for something found, ah ha, it often becomes a religious symbol.

One of my all time favorite books is Motel of the Mysteries by David Macaulay---don't know if it is still in print-- it is the intrepretation in the far future of our civilization after it was destroyed in a flash.

Just my thoughts
Diane

Just checked, and yes the book is still available and not very expensive.

[Edited on 1-28-2008 by jdtrotter]

Natalie Ann - 1-28-2008 at 11:08 AM

Many of the early rock paintings are considered to have been a form of communication in areas which might have been common crossroads for people of an earlier time. The paintings now tell us where the fishing was good, what type of animals were hunted and how, and even the size of the people because of areas where they left hand prints on the walls.

I find the early rock paintings very interesting. They tell a story. The marks on the rock shown by BajaCat have nothing to do with art nor communication. Only history I can imagine them leaving is one of embarrassment for our fellow man.

(So to be clear... I'm saying I think that much of the early art is a form of "rock writing", as is the topic of this thread. Didn't have the written language way back when, so they wrote with pictures. Then many moons later on you get the writing on the wall in the Mulege jail, as shown in my photos.... a historical record, at the very least.)

Nena

[Edited on 1-28-2008 by Natalie Ann]

Barry A. - 1-28-2008 at 11:09 AM

My 2 cents:

Ancient writings of any kind fasinate me, even those, as Diane says, only 1 or 2 hundred years old. This is because it helps me to "connect" with people who are now history.

When I beat my way thru the tamarisk on the Green River after disembarking from my canoe and saw "D. Julien 1836" written on the red rock wall, I cannot tell you how thrilling I found that inscription. This inscription is believed to be the oldest "white man" inscription in the west, Julien being a French voyageur who wandered the west way back when.

I have no similar wish to "connect" with people that are living now, and appear to have no respect for others property rights, or the natural scene, and are only boasting of the fact that they even exist, and to heck with what others think.

barry

(edited to change the date of d. julien inscription to 1836, not 1829)

[Edited on 1-28-2008 by Barry A.]

BAJACAT - 1-28-2008 at 11:13 AM

Thanks Diane,for the info.And have you notice in the board,their is alot post, about Rock art,and Petroglyphs.This should be Rock art&petroglyphs, month..

montevideo.JPG - 34kB

DianaT - 1-28-2008 at 11:16 AM

Nena,
Some of old rock art like on the wagon train trails only tell the story of who passed there before----same with some famous old carved trees.

I agree that the rock Bajacat showed is quite ugly, but some of the modern ugly rock paintings do tell who was there and tell stories----some graffiti is a form of communication --- some quite beautiful.

Not saying I like it, it just raises questions in my mind, especailly as to what future generations will think.

Diane

[Edited on 1-28-2008 by jdtrotter]

BAJACAT - 1-28-2008 at 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Natalie Ann
Many of the early rock paintings are considered to have been a form of communication in areas which might have been common crossroads for people of an earlier time. The paintings now tell us where the fishing was good, what type of animals were hunted and how, and even the size of the people because of areas where they left hand prints on the walls.

I find the early rock paintings very interesting. They tell a story. The marks on the rock shown by BajaCat have nothing to do with art nor communication. Only history I can imagine them leaving is one of embarrassment for our fellow man.

Nena

I agree you Nena,this is not art.But back 10,000 years this people never have any idea,and how their paitings,will affect us,or how important they will be come,so who knows,that in 10,000 yrs,somebody will come to Laguna Hanson and discover this rock,and will sherish it has ancient art,you never know..

Natalie Ann - 1-28-2008 at 11:34 AM

ok... you two are right... never know how the future will view this - and I am being judgmental.

There's a place outside my old home of Carbondale, Illinois... a park called Giant City, where there is a high ridge with a steep drop... one of those spots where the Indians used to run the buffalo over the edge to kill 'em. Quite a large area of this high ridge was split apart into deep narrow caverns and trail-like connections.

During the Civil War, armies from the South hid in these places... and their names, rank, home towns, and date they were there are still firmly etched into the moss-covered rock. I loved to go there, for the feeling of those men and that era also stuck tight to the rock.

Probably when they scratched information into that rock it was pretty much the same as some of the graffiti which repels me today - Kilroy was here. But it has a place in history... and it's possible one day someone will see valid history (or god) in BajaCat's first rock picture. Who am I to judge?!

Nena

CaboRon - 1-28-2008 at 11:45 AM

Nena,
I saw your remark about being from Carbondale , ILL.
In 1969 I managed a band in San Francisco whose members were from Carbondale.
The name of the band was the "Devils Kitchen".... they said they took their name from a lake, I believe, near Carbondale.
We all lived in various apartments in a building on Fell street in San Francisco right at the end of the Panhandle.
Do you remember them, or are you in touch with any of them ?
Just wondering.....
In fact I still have a poster from one of our shows at the Family Dog on the Great Highway.

CaboRon

BAJACAT - 1-28-2008 at 11:46 AM

Nena i see you didn't like my rock,so here is another rock pix.

[Edited on 1-28-2008 by BAJACAT]

tinajitas.JPG - 19kB

Eli - 1-28-2008 at 11:51 AM

I hate graffiti.

I Love the painting of the Virgin of Guadalupe on the rock shear facing the highway on the South side of San Bartolo.

One of my art forms is to use a epoxy moldling clay to form faces integrated in small rocks.

Hummmmmmmmmm, who am I to judge; what is art? what is of historical value, guess I will have to ride with Tanto on this one, ya sabe, quien sabe.

Again proof positive, that I am just another bozo on the bus, ni modo.

Natalie Ann - 1-28-2008 at 12:01 PM

Eli - nice to see you again... I was just thinking of you this morning. You are doing those little rock beings now? You know I dearly love the one I that lives on my altar. Hope all is well with you, amiga. And oh yeah... I also love that rock painting of Guadalupe along the highway, always look forward to seeing her.

BajaCat... oh yes, I like this rock picture a lot more. pretty rocks.

CaboRon... Devil's Kitchen, the lake - used to live just a nice walk from it. Don't know the band - I hadn't yet arrived in Carbondale in 1969. And I didn't make it to the Bay Area until '79, likely long after your band's claim to fame. Still, most interesting to know. Small world, huh?!

Nena

wilderone - 1-28-2008 at 12:10 PM

" if there appears to be no real explanation for something found, ah ha, it often becomes a religious symbol."

Given that "religion" and "symbol" each are amorphous terms, to be interpreted by the beholder, then that statement becomes meaningless.

The graffitti today, taken in context with today's (21st Century) understanding of our natural resources, history and the "improvements" made over the centuries - i.e., highways versus wagon trails, fences, buildings of worship, society, government - there is absolutely no need for vandals to spraypaint anywhere.

Early explorers on horseback, sometimes the first white man or European explorer to come into an area on horseback or foot or boat, had something important to say. It's stated simply and is not ugly and is respected because of the information it provides.
Scribbling with spraypaint borne of one's ego, and only ego satisfaction being the reason for the defacement, is a blow to the higher intelligence mankind has ostensibly attained.

We have ostensibly learned to appreciate and respect our national parks, wilderness areas, and open spaces and thus, try to leave then as pristine as we found them. Our open spaces now, compared to what the native americans had, is but a mere small fraction, and requires our attention to keep it healthy, aesthetic and available in its most natural state for generations to come.
We no longer have to scribble a map on boulders for others to follow - we have maps, roads, highways, GPS.
Most of us no longer worship spirits who dwell within the earth, and try to coax them out for favors through our tribe shaman using pictographs and petroglyphs in the ceremonies.
We no longer need to engage in ceremonies for fertility, bounteous crops, good weather, etc. - and paint symbolic figures to have such results bestowed upon us.
We no longer need to record profound historical events by using the only permanent "blackboard" or "newspaper" available (rock faces).
We no longer need to mark our territorial boundaries or identify our tribe affilliation with figures on rock faces.
Therefore, ancient rock messages which had a legitimate purpose it its day, does not apply today. Todays graffitti has absolutely no correlation with the ancient rock messaging of the past.

In sum, no, today's graffitti on rocks in areas where there should be none serves no legitimate purpose. It is a crime, nothing more. Stretching the term "art" for art's sake as applied to graffitti, it should not be inflicted upon the general public on public land violating today's mores when it has other acceptable venues.

DianaT - 1-28-2008 at 12:15 PM

Wildrone,

You do have an interesting opinion and some strongly held convictions----

Diane

vgabndo - 1-28-2008 at 12:21 PM

I don't have anything good to say about taggers. I have lived in fear of encountering someone in the process of vandalizing nature. It would be difficult to not try to educate them. Given their lack of basic education, and their willingness to break the law, it would be dangerous to chide them.

I could wish that their karma could be a bit more instant. I vote that when they paint on a rock, they turn around and find that the same inscription has been painted all across the side of their car. How could they object?

The tagger mentality is one of the reasons I have never shared the location of the little treasure of rock art I know of between Mulege and Loreto which has never been documented; at least to my knowledge.

Wilderone...you were writing at the same time I was. Very well put amigo.

I might note that in our little community, the children are allowed to tag the pavement in front of the high school, and a railroad overpass on the side of town. As a community we have tacitly approved of these venues. Any other vandalism is considered a crime and is dealt with by the law.

[Edited on 1-28-2008 by vgabndo]

DianaT - 1-28-2008 at 12:25 PM

The morphing of threads is always interesting---------

time to get to those mundane chores

[Edited on 1-28-2008 by jdtrotter]

Barry A. - 1-28-2008 at 12:30 PM

Vag----I love your second paragraph, and totally endorse the idea!!!

Wilderone------very well said, and I concur totally-----your depth of thinking here is right on point, and eloquently expands my thoughts considerably-----thank you.

barry

Barry A. - 1-28-2008 at 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter
The morphing of threads is always interesting---------

time to get to those mundane chores

[Edited on 1-28-2008 by jdtrotter]

Diane------I am puzzled------I see no "morphing of thread" here------all comments seem to be right on point. What do you mean??

DianaT - 1-28-2008 at 12:33 PM

Morph complete! So, remembering the wise words written to me on another thread, time to jump out. :lol:

Diane

vgabndo - 1-28-2008 at 12:35 PM

Mundane chores! We don't need no stinkin' mundane chores!
Now THERE is a morph.

Neal Johns - 1-28-2008 at 02:17 PM

jdtrotter/Diane,
Regarding the MOTM, I have a white horseshoe shaped religious article around my neck as I write this ....

I gave the book to my favorite archaeologist.

Honest (Trust Me) Neal Johns

DianaT - 1-28-2008 at 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neal Johns
jdtrotter/Diane,
Regarding the MOTM, I have a white horseshoe shaped religious article around my neck as I write this ....

I gave the book to my favorite archaeologist.

Honest (Trust Me) Neal Johns

---ah yes, you must be ready to chant at the sacred polished porcelain urn while the spring waters flow. :yes:

And, if you bought one of those reproduced wall fragments, it would fit very well into this topic.

A good friend of mine who is an anthropoligist told me that she decides if she will like a follow researcher by if they like that book or not ---- she liked working with people who had a sense of humor and could laugh at themselves.

Happy that someone is familar with that little jewel of a book.

Diane

[Edited on 1-29-2008 by jdtrotter]

[Edited on 1-29-2008 by jdtrotter]

Barbareno - 1-29-2008 at 06:46 AM

Hey I wanna tell ya a story, not sure if it relates to anything here but it is about Indian paintings. And this chaps my hide.

We use to have a cabin at Shuswap Lake here in BC Canada. There were alot of paintings on the rock cliffs that were only accessable to view by boat. Every year dad would take us over to look at them. We would just sit on the water and let our imaginations run wild. Make up our own story's.

One year we went to view and low and behold there are people actually chipping the paintings off. Guess they figured they would look better in their living room or den. Dad was fit to be tied. For a minute there I thought he was gonna walk on water.

Anyways....my brother and I were about 7 or 8 years old and decided to play around the cabin. He was a bit of an artist, so we got out the crayons and pretended to be Indians. I was look out. Along the path to our cabin brother was drawing stick men, teepee's, fish, that sorta thing on the flat rocks along the walkway. Nothing offensive.

The next day we get a knock on the cabin door. This was totally unusual as friends and neighbors would just holler first and walk in. Mom answered the door and these two ladies wanted to know how to get to the main road. She told them. And off they went. A little bit later she ask us what we were doing the day before. We told her we were playing Indians and painting on rocks. She asked us to go see if they were still there. Nope...they were gone. Mom said they had a bunch of rocks with them and got to thinking. Now how sad is that!

Barb

DianaT - 1-29-2008 at 09:18 AM

Barb,

That is a GREAT story. :lol:

Diane

wilderone - 1-29-2008 at 09:30 AM

And these kinds of fools are exactly who you don't want to know the locations of rock art sites. David.

vgabndo - 1-29-2008 at 01:05 PM

To expand on this highjack...

Does anyone have any experience in "re-habbing" (don't choke Diane

) abused rocks? marooons have defaced a roadside outcropping across from our new property in the Shasta Valley and we intend to erase their misdeed.

DianaT - 1-29-2008 at 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
To expand on this highjack...

Does anyone have any experience in "re-habbing" (don't choke Diane

) abused rocks? marooons have defaced a roadside outcropping across from our new property in the Shasta Valley and we intend to erase their misdeed.

Have Barb and her brother touch them up, then chip them off and sell the fragments.

Diane

Barry A. - 1-29-2008 at 02:54 PM

Vag------as a last resort, if you can get the equipment actually to the site, you can rent one of those small sand-blasters and make short work of any grafitti.

barry

David K - 1-29-2008 at 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
And these kinds of fools are exactly who you don't want to know the locations of rock art sites. David.

You just might have a point there Cindi! :lol:

Seriously, those types probably wouldn't know how to do much more than open a beer, let alone work a GPS or drive off road! :light:

[Edited on 1-29-2008 by David K]

Wingnut - 1-29-2008 at 03:13 PM

Interesting thoughts. My family goes back 4 generations in Arizona Ranching and many sites with pre-historic ruins and petroglyphs abounded within the ranch borders. But, like almost all the old ranching families in Arizona, we kept this information to ourselves. Even to alert University authorities about the sites, brought large numbers of unwanted treasure hunters and vandals. It seems our government and educational institutions are extremely leaky about so called protected sites. I don't blame anyone for not sharing the locations of such treasures. But I do urge anyone to take photos for posterity.

wessongroup - 9-27-2010 at 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
" if there appears to be no real explanation for something found, ah ha, it often becomes a religious symbol."

Given that "religion" and "symbol" each are amorphous terms, to be interpreted by the beholder, then that statement becomes meaningless.

The graffitti today, taken in context with today's (21st Century) understanding of our natural resources, history and the "improvements" made over the centuries - i.e., highways versus wagon trails, fences, buildings of worship, society, government - there is absolutely no need for vandals to spraypaint anywhere.

Early explorers on horseback, sometimes the first white man or European explorer to come into an area on horseback or foot or boat, had something important to say. It's stated simply and is not ugly and is respected because of the information it provides.
Scribbling with spraypaint borne of one's ego, and only ego satisfaction being the reason for the defacement, is a blow to the higher intelligence mankind has ostensibly attained.

We have ostensibly learned to appreciate and respect our national parks, wilderness areas, and open spaces and thus, try to leave then as pristine as we found them. Our open spaces now, compared to what the native americans had, is but a mere small fraction, and requires our attention to keep it healthy, aesthetic and available in its most natural state for generations to come.
We no longer have to scribble a map on boulders for others to follow - we have maps, roads, highways, GPS.
Most of us no longer worship spirits who dwell within the earth, and try to coax them out for favors through our tribe shaman using pictographs and petroglyphs in the ceremonies.
We no longer need to engage in ceremonies for fertility, bounteous crops, good weather, etc. - and paint symbolic figures to have such results bestowed upon us.
We no longer need to record profound historical events by using the only permanent "blackboard" or "newspaper" available (rock faces).
We no longer need to mark our territorial boundaries or identify our tribe affilliation with figures on rock faces.
Therefore, ancient rock messages which had a legitimate purpose it its day, does not apply today. Todays graffitti has absolutely no correlation with the ancient rock messaging of the past.

In sum, no, today's graffitti on rocks in areas where there should be none serves no legitimate purpose. It is a crime, nothing more. Stretching the term "art" for art's sake as applied to graffitti, it should not be inflicted upon the general public on public land violating today's mores when it has other acceptable venues.

bump

I like naked Ladies!

mcfez - 9-27-2010 at 09:45 AM

Yes....I hate painted trash on nature. Much less on buildings. Reading this post, I remember the UPROAR of the story below. Those of you in your 50's living in the L.A. basin will remember this. It hit the Look (or Life) Magazine too (I believe).

One Saturday morning, on October 29, 1966, a massive 60-foot-tall painting of a nude pink lady holding flowers suddenly appeared as you headed into the tunnel on Malibu Canyon Road.

As word of the massive pink lady spread, and the traffic on the highway grew to a halt, city officials decided “The Pink Lady” had to be removed. Firefighters were called to hosing her off the rocks. It didn’t work. Buckets of paint thinner were thrown on the rocks. It only made her pink skin pinker.

As county officials worked on figuring out a way to remove The Pink Lady, a 31-year-old paralegal from Northridge, a woman named Lynne Seemayer, suddenly showed up on the road and admitted that she was the artist who did the piece.

Seemayer said that she was annoyed by the graffiti that was all over the canyon wall (“Valley Go Home” was a memorable slogan) and so, over a 10 month period, she started to secretly climb up under the moonlight and suspended herself by ropes to remove the graffiti.

At 8 P. M. on October 28 Seemayer painted the Pink Lady using ordinary house paint. By dawn it was done.

The Pink Lade lasted only a week. Seemayer sued LA county for $1 million for the destruction of her work, and the county counter-sued for $28,000 in removal costs. Since the painting was on private property, both cases were dismissed by the court.

zemor.net

pink.jpg - 48kB

wessongroup - 9-27-2010 at 11:21 AM

Thanks forgotten all about that one....

Bajatripper - 9-29-2010 at 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
My 2 cents:

When I beat my way thru the tamarisk on the Green River after disembarking from my canoe and saw "D. Julien 1836" written on the red rock wall, I cannot tell you how thrilling I found that inscription. This inscription is believed to be the oldest "white man" inscription in the west, Julien being a French voyageur who wandered the west way back when.

I have no similar wish to "connect" with people that are living now, and appear to have no respect for others property rights, or the natural scene, and are only boasting of the fact that they even exist, and to heck with what others think.

You make two very interesting points, Barry. The first was the thread through history that a simple graffitti can leave, connecting you to a fellow adventurer from the past.
Next, you criticize one of your contemporaries for doing the same thing this fellow Julien did: he disrespected the property rights of Native Americans living in the region and spoiled the natural beauty of the scenery.
Having said that, I totally agree with your points. While in New Mexico, we once visited a similar rock at a water hole, and I felt as you must have. And I hate seeing what has been done along the highway at places like Cataviña. And yet (and here's where logic ceases to be a factor), as I noted on another thread on this topic, when I'm traveling down sections of the Old Road and come on that pre-1973 graffiti, I have to say that I get a similar feeling, only more personal since I had the honor of having ridden over that section of highway when it was in daily use.

I do respect the really old graffiti more because it had to be pecked or rubbed into the rock face--quite a bit less convenient than a can of spray paint. And yet, I think that what differentiates contemporary graffiti that we might hate from older stuff that we approve of is chiefly one of time. Given enough time, even that ugly scrawl on that rock will be a thrilling discovery for some.

Bajahowodd - 9-29-2010 at 03:12 PM

That's a very salient point. And it speaks to the cultural changes that occur over time. Not much different than contemporary music, another form of art. How many of you, when growing up, were harangued by your parents about the type of music you enjoyed. Time moves on. The culture changes. And in whatever epoch, someone's art is another's garbage.