BajaNomad - Speaking of flags...

Speaking of flags...

bajaboolie - 2-1-2008 at 10:39 AM

I have a question about flags. I never thought to ask this on the board but have always wondered: Just exactly how big are those HUMONGOUS Mexican flags, like the ones in Guerrero Negro and Ensenada? I can't really get a perspective on their size up there. Seems they could cover a whole city! Anyone know?

found this with a google search

sylens - 2-1-2008 at 11:05 AM

Mexican giant flags on the Mexican-US border and other places
Mexico has mounted monstrous 164-by-94-feet Mexican flags, hung from gigantic 109-ton flagpoles over three football fields tall, in three locations directly across from the U.S. - El Paso, San Diego, and Laredo TX. None of the U.S. cities has been able to justify the expense of a matching U.S. flag project.
quoted by Roy Stilling, 1998.02.04

There seems to be an official programme, financed and organized by the Mexican army, of erecting such banderas monumentales throughout Mexico, in places of national significance and in border cities in particular. In June last year, the Houston Chronicle reported that half a dozen banderas monumentales had be erected in Mexico and that several others were planned. The cities of Enseñada, Nuevo Laredo and Cancún were mentioned in a report in another newspaper.

One of the most recent such flags was inaugurated by president Zedillo in front of a panel of national and local dinitaries and a crowd of cheering spectators in Nuevo Laredo on 21 January. The Texas newspaper Laredo Morning Times reported the day after that the Nuevo Laredo flag is 28,6 x 50 m, weighing 350 kg, and hoisted on a flag pole 103 m tall. The flagpole in Mexico City is taller, apparently, with its 105,5 m. The Laredo Morning Times quoted the president's speech at the ceremony in Nuevo Laredo: «This flag is dedicated to all citizens, especially to the children.» adding that «The flag is to remind future generations how important their patriotism is.»

Another monumental flag was installed at Ciudad Juárez on 1997.06.26. This time the flag pole was 104,5 m tall and carried a flag that was 28,5 x 50 m. The site where the flagpole was put up is highly symbolic. The site is called Chamizal Park and is on the land Mexico reclaimed from the USA by the 1963 treaty that redefined the border between the countries (because the Rio Grande's changed course). Again president Zedillo was the man in charge of inaugurating the giant flag. He made no secret of the intentions behind the project, saying, according to the Houston Chronicle, that «This flag will remind everyone across the border that we are a sovereign nation.» He added that «It is also a reminder that we are an independent nation ready to defend its people wherever they may be.»

Some Americans in El Paso, across the border from Ciudad Juarez, apparently felt provoked by the giant flag that is visible on both sides of the border. An attempt was made to raise money for a similar giant United States flag on the El Paso side, but the effort was abandoned because of the cost. It was reported that it would take 450 000 dollars to erect a pole with a giant flag.

Jan Oskar Engene, 1998.02.04

Big Banderas

MrBillM - 2-1-2008 at 11:13 AM

What do you think the odds would be of finding a clean and safe public restroom anywhere near the base of that Big Expensive Flag ?

Oso - 2-1-2008 at 12:31 PM

EnsenYAda? In the U.S., the only places giant flags are flow is at car dealerships. Car dealers must be very patriotic people. :rolleyes:

The Chamizal reference reminds me of a tale from that time (warning- this might get zapped)

During the handover ceremonies, speeches, anthems etc., LBJ felt the call of nature and asked Senator Montoya of N.M., "Senator, where can a man take a leak around here?" Montoya replied, "Well theres a big chamiza (creosote bush) over there, Mr. President. As a matter of fact I have to go too." The two retired behind the bush and unzipped. This was in winter and just then an icy wind came up. LBJ shivered and remarked "Pretty chilly!" Montoya replied, "Oh, thank you!."

vgabndo - 2-1-2008 at 12:33 PM

It has been my experience that the Mexican people take a lot of pride in their flag. That is a wonderful thing. It contrasts greatly with what I so commonly see in this country. My right wing neighbors will allow their flags to remain tangled in in the eaves of their houses for days. I can't count the number of half flags I see on the radio antennas of cars. The message, I must suppose, is that they are SO patriotic that they get to abuse our nation's flag. In this week's newspaper, a picture was published showing a long row of antenna flags in a car dealership. The poor bedraggled symbols were barely visible sticking out of the snow. The story wasn't about abuse of our flag, it was about the snow. And the capper; a soaking wet cloth flag hanging un-lit in the dark on the pole in front of the United States Post Office. (96067)

I think it is great that the Mexicans take pride in their flag, and frankly I don't see what that has to do with the proximity of a toilet.

Now if I could just pledge allegience to our flag without having to acknowledge the soverienty of someone else's god, proving the actual existance of the first ammendment to our constitution, we'd be on our way back toward national pride, and the moral "high ground".

Packoderm - 2-1-2008 at 01:51 PM

"Mexico has mounted monstrous 164-by-94-feet Mexican flags, hung from gigantic 109-ton flagpoles over three football fields tall..."

Yeah, but how tall is a football field?

:lol:

vgabndo - 2-1-2008 at 04:03 PM

Yeah, Paco...and how come when I was running wind sprints at football practice I always had to run UP hill?

David K - 2-1-2008 at 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
... Now if I could just pledge allegience to our flag without having to acknowledge the soverienty of someone else's god, proving the actual existance of the first ammendment to our constitution, we'd be on our way back toward national pride, and the moral "high ground".

Perry, have you ever considered that the phrase 'One nation under God' in our pledge and 'In God We Trust' on our money conveys the wishes of our nation's founders that the government will never become supreme overall here, as it has in so many countries that has inslaved its people through force or financial sacrifice. That it does not have anything to do with religion or a religious belief, because that is guaranteed in the constitution. Think of it as a way of saying this nation will never be the slave of any person... (king, dictator, etc.) because it is the only country placed under 'God'... which can be anything non-human to anybody?

bajaboolie - 2-1-2008 at 09:28 PM

Thanks for the research, sylens. I'd hardly call it "monstrous", as the author of the article calls it. I think it's awesome, and it gets me in a "zone" whenever I see them!

Oh, and vgabndo, I agree...I hate seeing people with torn flags on their cars. Kind of sends the opposite message I think they are intending.

Do some of you others have an opinion about the huge flags?

vgabndo - 2-1-2008 at 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Perry, have you ever considered that the phrase 'One nation under God' in our pledge and 'In God We Trust' on our money conveys the wishes of our nation's founders that the government will never become supreme overall here, as it has in so many countries that has inslaved its people through force or financial sacrifice. That it does not have anything to do with religion or a religious belief, because that is guaranteed in the constitution. Think of it as a way of saying this nation will never be the slave of any person... (king, dictator, etc.) because it is the only country placed under 'God'... which can be anything non-human to anybody?

Yes David, I have considered what the founders wanted. They accepted Jefferson's ideal of a WALL between church and state. I'm sure you know how many times they included the word god in the constitution. The answer, of course, is zero. Do you think that was an oversight?

To infer, as you have, that the lack of a state religion will result in the enslavement of our people runs quite contrary to our history. Slavery was a fact of life in this country for over two hundred years. How could that be? The Bible said it was really really OK to buy and sell other human beings; to breed them and sell their offspring. It took the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans in our only civil war to end that dispicable practice "under God".

You say it doesn't have anything to do with religion or a religious belief? You have hit on the only possible way that "under God" in the pledge can be found to be constitutional; that is if the words are absolutely meaningless.

Bear in mind that the words were not part of the pledge as written my it's author a Baptist minister. The part he would have liked to have in his pledge was...EQUALITY, liberty and justice for all, but he knew that making women and blacks equal would never fly in 1892.

The pledge is, what, thirty three words? Why add the redundent "under God" if, as you say, it only means liberty and justice for all?

There is one more little gap in your understanding of why a god got put in the pledge. It was only after a "full court press" on Congress by a very powerful international organization that the unconstitutional act took place. What organzation? The Knights of Columbus, the world's largest Roman Catholic fraternal organization.

Now do you want me to believe that they had some nebulous "non-human" in mind? Fat chance David.

David K - 2-2-2008 at 09:43 AM

God (or a god) in a position greater than any man mentioned in the Pledge was (to me) to convey that we would never put a man (or woman) in an all powerful position of leadership... like in the case of a monarchy or dictatorship. I just thought if you looked at it that way you might be able to drop your being upset about its use... Peace, Love and Fish Tacos, afterall!

Now, about this that you wrote:

"To infer, as you have, that the lack of a state religion will result in the enslavement of our people runs quite contrary to our history"

There is no state religion here in the U.S.... I didn't infer it, nor does anyone I know want one. I just don't want to lose our freedoms to any political leader or political party... Sadly, slavery was practiced in those days of America (and still is today in Africa)... Slaves were 'property' and not people to some in power back then. That time here is long over... God bless Abraham Lincoln! (oops, there's that word you don't like, again... sorry!)

Have a great day Perry...

durrelllrobert - 2-2-2008 at 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oso
EnsenYAda? In the U.S., the only places giant flags are flow is at car dealerships. Car dealers must be very patriotic people. :rolleyes:

DianaT - 2-2-2008 at 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo

Quote:

You really state that very well---we couldn't agree more!!

What is really galling is how people today try to twist history and make the "founders" of this country fundamentalist Christians --- they were children of the Enlightenment and most of them were Deists. One of my favorite Jefferson quotes was that he believed that within 20 years all thinking men would become Unitarians. (He was not big on women's rights, so his reference to men meant men)

The addition of "under God" did not need to be added, but would be far less offensive to me if it was spelled with a small g----as one of my old bumper stickers said, "One nation under whose god?"

OH, we really loved the reaction of one person to our bumper sticker---he rolled down his window at a stop signal, yelled it was one nation under his god, the only god, and then flipped us off-----

We also agree about how so called patriotic people abuse the flag---but we were raised at a time when they told us that if the flag was tattered, or touched the ground, it was done.

Back to Mexican Flags---the longest ceremony we ever saw was the lowering of the flag in central Guadalajara. They stopped a fair that was going on, and it took what seemed like forever, and of course they played the bugles and drums the entire time. I like the big Mexican flags----

Diane

[Edited on 2-2-2008 by jdtrotter]

ENSENADA

David K - 2-2-2008 at 10:51 AM

PARALELO 28 (near Guerrero Negro)

David K - 2-2-2008 at 10:53 AM

sylens - 2-2-2008 at 10:53 AM

i too love the huge mexican flag. though i have not yet witnessed it, i understand there is an impressive ceremony here in ensenada when the military puts the flag up. one of these days i'll catch it and try to get some photos.

i agree the word "monstrous" is inappropriate. magnificent is more like it :tumble:

vgabndo - 2-2-2008 at 12:38 PM

In the Marine Corps the raising and lowering of the colors was conducted with extreme solemnity. It was a great honor to be chosen to physically take part in the ritual. The flag was raised as briskly as possible with bugles blasting and lowered very slowly; as if reluctantly. It never failed to give me goose bumps. I'm sure the effect is the same on our Mexican neighbors. Today in America, a country with "Presidential Signing Orders", one that invades nations in preemptive wars, one that spys on it's citizens, one that tortures political prisoners, one that maintains secret prisons, one that has abandoned habius corpus, I don't get goose bumps any more. Other than my kid brother's terminal disease, it is the saddest thing in this old Marine's life.

bajasol - 2-2-2008 at 01:30 PM

The large flags are named GARRISON flags

:tumble:

DENNIS - 2-2-2008 at 03:01 PM

I read once that the flags were paid for with profits from the Monte De Piedad pawnshop chain all over Mexico and, I think, in the US now as well. The pawnshops are government owned.
Doncha just love it....The government drives people into poverty, then buys the gold from their teeth.

109 ton.....That sounds like a lot.

The flags get torn up fairly quickly and require a lot of maintenance. The fabric is thin or it wouldn't flap in the wind.

elgatoloco - 2-2-2008 at 05:48 PM

Only been like this once.

Halfstafff.JPG - 49kB

bajalou - 2-2-2008 at 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

When I was growing up the words "Under God" were NOT in the pledge. They were added in the late 40's or early 50's so it's a rather late change to the pledge considering when it originated.

vgabndo - 2-2-2008 at 10:20 PM

" It was only after a "full court press" on Congress by a very powerful international organization that the unconstitutional act took place. What organzation? The Knights of Columbus, the world's largest Roman Catholic fraternal organization."

Happened in 1954.

David and I have taken this to U2U, I'm accountable for the highjack. Perry

bajalera - 2-3-2008 at 12:04 AM

DK's pic shows the flag, and off to the right the black eagle I used to look forward to seeing. That odd sculpture used to be visible for miles as you drove south, a familiar landmark. Too bad it's now lost amid the treetops.