[Edited on 3-12-2008 by tripledigitken]jorgie - 3-12-2008 at 11:55 AM
In Spain and I get it.......don't really need it, not at all.DENNIS - 3-12-2008 at 11:58 AM
Many years back, we would go to the Sunday fights in Tijuana. It was more the party than the cultural enrichment of blood-lust that brought us
there. It was a coming-of-age ritual. Not the bull fight, the party in Mexico.bajamigo - 3-12-2008 at 12:02 PM
Went to one in Puerta Vallarta several years ago. Regrettably, the carnicero did a truly crappy job dispatching the bull. Haven't been to one since.DianaT - 3-12-2008 at 12:35 PM
Went to one in Tijuana when I was 5 years old and HATED it. Still remember when one bull did not want to fight and they just kept stabbing it----
Not a good experience for a small child, IMHO.
Then attended one near Hanford California, but it was done in Portugese style--lots of people from the Azores in that area. They don't kill the bull
and I like that better.
Diane
OK, I am a hypocrite---I eat beef.Pompano - 3-12-2008 at 12:42 PM
In Portugal, the bulls are indeed taken from the arena, out of view from the public, and killed later in a slaughterhouse. They do this to prevent
the bulls from 'learning' and because of public opinion, of course.
p.s. plus this was an edic issued by Pope Pius V..that the bull must die. There is an exception to that rule: When a bull has shown incredible
bravery in the ring, it's life can be spared and it will spend the rest of its life at pasture as a seed bull. That is the only exception. Not even if
the bull kills a matador.
[Edited on 3-12-2008 by Pompano]Fred - 3-12-2008 at 01:34 PM
Spain was so much better than TJDanO - 3-12-2008 at 02:09 PM
Yes, in Madrid. Quite a spectacle. Saw one of the top matadors in the country get gored in the, ah, groin area. Not for the faint of heart.Sunman - 3-12-2008 at 02:11 PM
Madrid, Plaza del Toros. Heavy thing to watch, but enjoyed it on a cultural level as a one time life experience. It sure was one big fiesta in that
ring.
Bulltail stew
Pompano - 3-12-2008 at 02:24 PM
When I was a very young man, I lived for a while in an Acapulco furnished room...the address was 74 Plaza de Toros. It was directly across from the
bullfight arena and La Corrida was a normal event in our lives.
Sometimes the bull lost it's tail (and ears) to the matador.
These were not great items to carry around for a long time and so some ideas naturally came to mind. Hence this recipe:
Rabo de Toro Bulltail stew.
Ingredients
1. 1 large bull's tail, cut in about 2 inch thick pieces
2. 2 large onions, chopped finely
3. 2 large tomatoes, diced
4. a cup of fresh peas
5. 2-3 carrots, diced
6. brandy (or if you prefer, 2 cups red wine)
7. 2 garlic teeth (crushed inside skin)
8. salt
9. pepper
10. 2 laurel leaves
11. virgin olive oil
12. 1 teaspoon paprika
13. two to three tablespoons chopped parsley
14. potato (optional)
Bring a large container of water to boil, add the meat and let boil to soften. I let this boil at least one hour.
After boiling for at least an hour, remove the meat. Cut off the fatty skin that's still attached. Make vertical incisions in the meat between the
cartilage, but being careful so that you don't remove the meat from the bone. You just want to "soften it a bit."
With the leftover "water" skim off the fat on the surface, and reduce this now to form a thick beef stock.
Heat another container (again earthenware is best) with virgin olive oil, not much just enough to cover the bottom. Add the onion, and when
transparent, add the meat and sear on all sides.
Once the meat has been seared, add beef stock and water to just barely cover the meet, add in the vegetables (tomato, carrots, peas and potato if you
want) and paprika.
Add salt and black pepper to taste, and two leafs of laurel.
Let cook, on medium height, at least another 1 hour.
When the sauce has been reduced, add a healthy cup of brandy, and let it cook for another 15 to 20 minutes - and add the parsley. How can you
tell it's done? The meat is literally hanging from the bone.
Serve in shallow bowls, with sauce included.
(You may substitute road-kill tails if Baja Road circumstances offer.)DENNIS - 3-12-2008 at 02:27 PM
I don't know, Roger. I can't escape the thought of exactly where on the bull that tail has been and what it's seen.Oso - 3-12-2008 at 02:42 PM
I can understand both points of view. I don't bother going to just any corrida and I would hate to see a really poor performance by a "carnicero".
But I am a fan of Julian Lopez Escobar, "El Juli", who stuck his first (young) bull at the age of 10. "El Joven Maestro" is now 25 and has fought
2,167 bulls in 1,010 corridas, killing 2,143 of them (I'm not sure all 24 of the others were "indultos", but I think most were). He has been awarded
1,591 ears, 59 tails and been carried out of the ring on the shoulders of adoring fans 538 times. I'm looking forward to the next time he comes back
to Calafia in Mexicali.Sharksbaja - 3-12-2008 at 03:01 PM
No I haven't. Don't really care to. I can remember the popular border vendor items from the 60s. Black velvet matadors and bulls. Ceramic figures
flocked in black. Switchblades with a golden toro embedded in resin. I really liked that motif but in reality I have reservations about the cruelness
associated with the sport. Same goes for animal fights. A lot of people would like to see humans rip each other apart. Go figure.The Sculpin - 3-12-2008 at 03:10 PM
The one that sticks in my mind the most was in TJ on a hot summer day. We were on the north side with the sun beating down on the ring and us. Very
hot. The fight was good, but the end lasted too long in the heat. At first, you could smell the wood, dust and the sweat of the bull. As the fight
progressed and the bull was waekened, the smell slowly became more pungent and visceral, untill all yopu could smell was the blood of the bull, mixed
with the hot dirt. After awhile, you could simply shut your eyes and imagine that you had just happened upon a closely fought battle. It simply
smelled like war.
Haven't been to one since.Russ - 3-12-2008 at 03:14 PM
What Dennis said. Me tooMartyman - 3-12-2008 at 04:00 PM
Seville, Spain. What I enjoyed was how all the men fired up Cigars (someone handed me one) at the start of the event And then the bullfight band was
playing. The actual bullfight...so so. I haven't gone to another, haven't really wanted to.
My Lady and the Bull
Baja Bernie - 3-12-2008 at 05:02 PM
Ah! Yes, so many years ago! The wife insisted that she wished to see a Bull Fight. After months of haranguing I threw my hat in the ring and agreed
to take my Lady to the fights at Playa de Tijuana. I hate the bull fights because he never has a chance.
We crossed the border on foot and headed to the first Taxi stand because it was very hot. I worried about getting in a wreak as we headed toward the
bull ring—that problem should have never entered my mine—we were packed in like anchovies and nothing could have harmed us what with all of the
padding surrounding us.
Yes, you guessed we sat in the sunny seats—not because I was cheap, but because I wished my lady to roast because of her misplaced interest in this
foul sport—hell! No sport—just a simple execution of one Grand Bull by many mere mortals.
After the first ‘fight’ my Love asked to be taken home because the slaughter was not her ideal of what a bull fight was to be about. I declined
because I wished to impress upon my Love just how lacking in civilized custom these nasty fights really were.
After a few more ‘fights’ where the Bull leaked both air and blood—no thanks to the guy with the tight pants—we were suddenly in the shade! What a
relief!
If you believe that then you do not know my Life—No! here was where she understood and began to cheer for the Bull.
As a matador suddenly was flung over the head of alert bull—my Lady—cheered the Bull! Suddenly, we received so many cushions and other projectiles
that the sun was blotted out.
My Bride quickly realized that her behavior was becoming threatening to our well being and again asked to leave.
No, my Woman you will see this through so I do not have to drag you down here again!
Okay! The next, whatever you call it, ended up with the Bull making the right move and the silly guy making the wrong step—yet he was gored and my
Woman roared.
We did make it out to the cabs and back to the border. No! She is a quick learner and never asked to return to the Bull ‘fights’
Hemmingway was dead wrong!Mango - 3-12-2008 at 06:44 PM
I've been to one. The "greatest bullfighter in the world" Pablo Mendoza de la Hermosa just happened to be visiting Campeche while I was there several
years ago, so I went after being invited by some Canadian tourists.
We got the "cheap" seats for $550 pesos each. We sat in the last row; but, the area only held 3000 people so we were only 20 or so rows back.
It was grotesque; yet, beautiful all at the same time. I felt bad for the bulls; but, realized that their death occurred in a ceremony meant to honor
and display both the bulls and the bullfighters strength (more than most animals get) I saw 9 bulls die that day and will never forget it. I'm not
sure which death I'd pick if I were a bull- Death by a bullfighter and his cohorts, where at least you have an outside chance of taking one of them
with you, or a lonely, quick, and unceremonious death in a dark slaughterhouse.
The bullfight I saw was amazing and I've never seen anyone ride a horse like Sr. Mendoza. I'm not itching to go to another; but, I would if the
circumstances were right.
It's not the chicken and it's not the bull that have their life taken as a form of entertainment that bothers me so much as the human condition that
finds enjoyment in it. It is noted that children who torture animals have a strong possibility of going into adulthood with dangerous, psychopathic
characteristics. This can be applied to groups, cultures, as well. How can anybody argue that to cause suffering and death to animals is healthy?
What statement is being made by man who enjoys this other than, "I am more powerful than this animal" ?
Having said all this without refering to animal rights took strong restraint. I'll save it for later.Leo - 3-12-2008 at 07:29 PM
Yes, in Portugal. Not something I would want to do again. Reading about it is better than the real thing. Actualy, it is a sad spectacle, totally
unballanced and with a known outcome.windgrrl - 3-12-2008 at 08:14 PM
No, but I rode a mechanical bull once for 2 minutes on a dare once and I share the launch with this feller and his 13 pals everytime we go
windsurfing!
[img][/img]Steve&Debby - 3-12-2008 at 08:43 PM
No ,but I have ridden a bull or should I say been thrown off a bullIflyfish - 3-13-2008 at 12:35 AM
I had the amazing good fortune to see one of the greatest matadors in the history of the sport fight in TJ. It was my first bull fight and is etched
in my memory.
The name of the bull fighter was El Cordobés, he had an extraordinary athletic build and his work looked like the ballet of Baryshnikov.
I was mesmerized by the sheer spectacle of the thing and the amazing artistry of his movements. He appeared to hypnotize the bull, walked up to it,
touched it’s head between the horns, backed away, dropped to his knees and turned around to walk away from the bull, on his knees, cape dragging
dramatically in the sand! His passes were razor close and he pirouetted around the bull as it passed, huge animal, within an inch of his body.
Having had that experience I have attended other bull fights and never again saw the sort of mastery that I saw on that warm afternoon in the Plaza de
Toro’s in Tijuana. I have seen terrible fights where the matador was booed out of the arena, I have seen bull fighters thrown over the heads of the
bulls, I have seen Picadors booed and cushions thrown at them! Never again did I see the beautiful cape and foot work of the great El Cordobés.
I know how disgusting Bull Fighting can be and fully understand those opposed to it, I can only say this, I saw the best and it was good, very good.
It was interesting to learn that the bull fight is a highly choreographed drama and represents the mastery of the feminine over brute masculine
energy. The matador is actually dressed as a woman and her charm masters the raw physicality and power of the male energy of the bull. She seduces and
eventually kills him in an all too familiar drama. There is much more to this event than meets the eye of the novice to the spectacle.
I have now seen my fights and doubt that I will go no more. I am just fortunate enough to have seen the best and to have experienced this dying
cultural phenomenon at it’s best.
I had the same experience with Sauterne; my first taste was a d’Yquem arguably the best Sauterne in the world. I have had Sauterne since and never
really enjoyed them, not after that first glass of the best. I liken this to my experience of Bull Fighting or with love making for that matter and
only regret that at the young age of 18 or so that I could not fully appreciate what I was seeing and experiencing.
Iflyfish
Bullfighting means different things to different people.
Pompano - 3-13-2008 at 07:22 AM
You can hate it or love it, but the fact remains that bullfighting is a tradition that is enjoying a strong comeback in Europe and the Americas,
especially Spain. Even Asia has it's own form of bullfighting.
To really understand something, one should know it's origins and what it has meant to each culture it touched. I had time to do some research and
learned some interesting facts:
The fighting bulls of today, Spaniards call them 'toros bravo', were originally bred from the ancient breed of cattle known as urus, which once roamed
most of the world. Modern day toros bravo are only raised to fight and die in the ring. Some would say a more glorious death than in the
slaughterhouse.
Many civilizations admired and worshipped them; the bull cults on the Greek island of Crete are very well known. The Bible tells of sacrifices of
bulls in honour of divine justice.
Bulls also played an important role in the religious ceremonies of tribes living in Spain in prehistoric times. The origins of the plaza de toros
(bullring) are probably not the Roman amphitheatres but rather the Celtic-Iberian temples where those ceremonies were held. Near Numancia in the
province of Soria one of them has survived, and it is supposed that bulls were sacrificed to the gods there.
While religious bull cults go back to Iberians, it was Greek and Roman influences that converted it into a spectacle. During the Middle Ages it was a
diversion for the aristocracy to torear on horseback, a style known as suerte de cañas.
In the 18th century this tradition was more or less abandoned and the poorer population invented bullfighting on foot. (Only rich folks owned
horses.) Francisco Romero was a key figure in laying down the rules for the new sport..
Even before this, bulls are known to have strongly influenced mankind's ancenstors..the Neanderthals. The earliest cave painting is 20,000 years old
showing a particularily well-painted bull with muscles showing, head erect, a respected image..and with a short lance sticking from his neck.
Obviously this animal was hunted by a man on foot with a short lance or spear. The mystery of man v.s. bull begins in the dawn of man's history on
earth.
Ancient Greeks revered and sacrificed bulls. Epic tales of man confronting bulls is shown throughout their literature, almost the same as the early
Romans. These early fights finally evolved and reached into Spain where it flourished..but.. as stated above,..as a fighter on horseback, not afoot.
For centuries, from the 8th to the 15th Centuries, this was the normal bullfight..a horseman with lance.. not a matador with a cape & sword. This
event took place almost anywhere. Only later on in the 18th Century were the first arenas (Plaza de Toros) constructed for matador fights...the
original one in the town of Ronda.
In the modern age, motion picture companies and certain authors attributed 'flavor and flair' to the matador and bull. The classic bullfight movie
'Matador' , 1986 - Pedro Almadovar, did much to promote the sport/art with a feminine v.s male influence...the dark side of human nature. Some
debaters also put forth the hypothosis that Spain needs the corrida to reclaim it's 'manhood' in the eyes of the world...politics surface again.
Or...it could be that this is just another arena-spectacle game/theatre/sport/art..whatever you want to call it..that excites the general populance?
Like the ancient Roman galdiator/beast days..or going to a Mets game. 'Let's go the arena with some good buddies, drink beer/wine, shout oles, boo,
and feel exuberant for a few hours while supporting our favorite team.' Bob H - 3-13-2008 at 12:54 PM
Yes, in Seville Spain - back in the late 60's. I enjoyed the matador dancing with the cape and bull - but I didn't like the constant stabbing
(picadores?) of the poor helpless bull!
Bob HTacoFeliz - 3-14-2008 at 09:58 AM
Yep. 1972 in Mexico City. Two great matadors, four crummy ones, a great crowd on a hot day. The third crummy matador's performance was interrupted
by a frustrated drunk spectator jumping into the arena and hijacking the bullfight with only a red bandanna to make his passes with the bull. Put on
a terrific show for about ten minutes before he was scooped up and escorted out of the arena. The crowd went completely wild and all the fights after
that were much more spirited. Needless to say, the matador who was interrupted mid-fight was roundly heckled, hooted and jeered. He finished his
fight quietly amidst all manner of crap being flung into the ring by the crowd. It was a slightly insane but very memorable day. I'd go again any
time.Mango - 3-14-2008 at 11:12 AM
Sounds like you had a great time TacoFeliz. I found the crowd very interesting as well. Many of the memories of my first bull fight revolve mainly
around all the crazy stuff that happened in the stands.
I vividly remember the drunks yelling for more "musica!" whenever the action would lull. The band used every opportunity to shirk from their duty as
soon as anything exciting happened. Their lackluster play was more a result of their lips being so tired after a few hours playing than it was
laziness. The drunks would lapse in their calls until one of them realized that there was no music.. then the calls for more "musica!" would begin
anew until the band obliged. The battle between the reluctant band and the distracted drunks was one of the best parts of the fight for me.grito - 3-14-2008 at 06:59 PM
I went to one in Mazatlan but had to walk out half way through. It is terrible the way they torture the bull. Maybe they are skilled and there is a
ritual but it is still grotesque.
Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken
[Edited on 3-12-2008 by tripledigitken]
DENNIS - 3-14-2008 at 07:45 PM
What it is, is a culturaly deluded psychopath who equates killing animals with adulation and big bucks. That's the matador and the afficionado.
What good is the big-balled matador, the Manolete and the El Cordobes, Carlos Aruza or El Whatever? What did they do to enhance humanity?
They stabbed magnificant animals to death when they did it right. More often, they chewed the beast to death with ineptness, bad efforts which
caused suffering and a slow undignified dispatch of a noble beast which deserved better.
The Romans had a similar method of entertainment. They used humans. I think that makes more sense in so much as the sacrificed would understand his
destiny.
Somebody her has a signature which says, "Mean people suck." [Debra] Well, there you are, you aficionados of the corrida...you suck.Pompano - 3-14-2008 at 08:01 PM
A long time ago, I went to a bullfight in Mazatlan during carnival time. We had checked into the Playa Mazatlan Hotel and had seen the governor of
our home state was there also. While at the bullfight, I happened to spot him again..sitting two rows below us.
A clumsy matador was being severely booed by the crowd for butchering the bull in a horrible show of ineptness. Cushions, bottles, garbage of all
kinds were flung at the fellow. I took good aim and bounced my seat cushion off the head of the guv.
Bullfights are good for some things.DENNIS - 3-14-2008 at 08:11 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Pompano
Bullfights are good for some things.
I remember those cushions that were rented for butt-relief from the hard bleacher seats. They served a dual purpose throughout the afternoon,
ultimatly as ammo to be thrown at somebody in the ring, most often the picador.
Too bad they didn't rent big rocks.
Have You Ever Been in a Bullfight?
Pompano - 3-15-2008 at 10:39 AM
Well..yes...after a fashion.
My cape was a 7200 lb Dodge..against a herd of marauding 1000 lb North American bulls.
...and Have You Ever Slung Any Bull?....
Pompano - 3-15-2008 at 10:44 AM
A little bird says...Yes!
windgrrl - 3-15-2008 at 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
More often, they chewed the beast to death with ineptness, bad efforts which caused suffering and a slow undignified dispatch of a noble beast which
deserved better.
Yup - not exactly a fair fight because of the way the bulls are set up. A carnie-show of pseudo-mastery over the natural world. Mass delusion of
beauty wrapped up in a sanctioned sacrifice.
Go figure.
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