BajaNomad - ON-DEMAND GAS WATER HEATERS - NOT

ON-DEMAND GAS WATER HEATERS - NOT

rob - 4-9-2008 at 01:43 PM

At Rancho la Aguja, I have just thrown the last Bosch/Kruger instant propane water heater into the garbage.

For 5 years they have made life miserable - temperamental pilot flames, sensitive to water pressure (at the low end of the water cycle, the gas would shut off due to perceived lack of water pressure, leaving the victim shivering), sensitive to salt breezes (that's us!) and expensive as well.

The last straw was the purchase of a new unit in La Paz ($300US+), which lasted 5 months before refusing to light. There is no service in La Paz and we discovered the Bosch distributor service in Cabo is a joke.

I have installed Rheem electric tank heaters - cheap and simple. I can buy two of them for the cost of a Bosch.

We also considered on-demand electric water heaters, but that amp draw is LARGE, and our cottages have relatively small monophasic systems.

Up at Conquista ejido, where the fishermen squeeze pesos til they scream, they are all switching to electrical units - they say they are cheaper to run than propane!

BMG - 4-9-2008 at 02:02 PM

I recently installed a Bosch on-demand propane water heater. Just under M$2000 at City Club in La Paz. The first unit was the unit with the pilot light. Could not keep that pilot lit. Ended up returning it within the 30 day return time period and bought the pilotless model. Was about M$2200. That's much less than the demand heaters I've seen sold in the U.S.

So far, very happy with it. Not too thrilled that this 'Bosch' product is made in China though so we'll see how long it lasts. No issues with water pressure, temp swings or electronic ignition.

Bob and Susan - 4-9-2008 at 02:30 PM

same thing here...

i replaced the propane tankless heaters with small conventional units...

i was having the same problem with the tank shutting off when the pump turned on...
at that time the pressure dropped and the tankless unit turned off...

i routed the tankless to the conventional tanks to provide hot water for the showers...the incomming water to the conventional unit is pre-heated now
and mixes with the conventional hot water for a comfortable shower

now if the tankless goes out the conventional tank has enough to provide a hot shower

of course...in a couple of months we will ONLY need COLD water :saint:

aha baja - 4-9-2008 at 02:31 PM

You might investigate the Takagi T-K3 propane tankless waterheater. When operating they will use between 11k and 199k b.t.u. depending on demand. One factor to longevity is the quality of the water flowing thru the unit. If it is high in mineralization (calcium magnisium, sulphur ,etc) it will wipe out ANY water heater quickly. Electric are worse because the minerals will tend to build up arround the electric element(s) as they heat. My cost as a plumbing contractor is arround $950 U.S.but they can be periodicaly put thru a de-scaling process regularly to help remove mineral buildup

CortezBlue - 4-9-2008 at 02:33 PM

I was at a construction overstock place and bought a brand new Rannai hot water heater for only $250 bucks. When I bought it they were selling for 1300 bucks or more. I almost sold it to a friend becuase I as concearned with the water hardness and water pressure. But at the last minute installed it and man am I glad I did. It is awesome. I can get to our place from our long drive and take a hot shower without waiting for hot water. The only thing that I did that was recommended to me by a plumber was installing valves that allow me to recirculate vinager through the system to help remove water hardness buildup. :spingrin:

Bob and Susan - 4-9-2008 at 02:42 PM

man...

if i was going to have to service those things all the time...

i'm glad we got rid of them!!!

the ONLY problem we experienced was that they shut off all them time and...
when you're taking a shower in the winter it's NOT FUN!!!

tripledigitken - 4-9-2008 at 03:01 PM

If never ceases to amaze me how things we take for granted in the US can be such a major source of frustration living in Baja.

Water heaters, space heaters, septic systems, having 110v power, concrete sand, structural lumber, even water to name just a few!

I'm sure Nomads could add many more to the list.

I'm taking notes for when we build south of the border.

Ken

vandenberg - 4-9-2008 at 03:24 PM

Installed 2 conventional Reliance 501 40 gallon propane water heaters in 1991 and they're still running strong. Live here year around and water is very hard. Never had them flushed either. Only thing I noticed, with the one we use most, that it must have a large build up of minerals inside, since the amount of water used before the gasflame comes on is getting less.

rob - 4-9-2008 at 04:39 PM

Bob - that's an interesting solution to guest hot water needs! I was looking at a roof solar water heater - did you check those out?

BMG - yes, the tankless electric heaters are EXPENSIVE! They are still my first choice - maybe in another life. I saw an electric showerhead in Plomybanos (La Paz) for $200 pesos . . don't know whether I'd trust them at that price.

Lencho - I have one 220v Rheem installed in the laundry (which has full 3-phase service - another story). The cost of 3-phase is HIGH, so we keep the heater switched off except for the occasional guest and laundry day. We leave the 110v home one on.

At Conquista they turn on the heaters 30 mins before a shower, then switch them off again.

BMG - 4-9-2008 at 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rob
I saw an electric showerhead in Plomybanos (La Paz) for $200 pesos . . don't know whether I'd trust them at that price.

My father-in-law put one in at his beach house.

No problem as long as you don't touch the faucets :!:

He said, "Esteep (he still can't pronounce Steve), just turn the water on and off from outside the shower." I told him that I would but I just take cold showers there.

The tankless water heaters that I have most experience with are the Renai. Last for many years and no problems. I'm hoping the Bosch is as good but not holding my breath. I can say that the one that I installed in the photo above is working flawlessly but then it's only a few months old.

DENNIS - 4-9-2008 at 07:39 PM

My Nomad neighbor, durelllrobert, just went through hell with his US purchased Bosch unit. Turned out the exhaust, pipe length etc., is crucial to succesful operation. U2U him if you want particulars.

Stickers - 4-9-2008 at 08:51 PM

I just roughed in for a tankless heater on a guest house I just built here in Socal. My plumber insisted on a 1 1/4" pipe for the gas supply. He claims inadequate gas volume screws up many installations. (that is a big pipe) :wow:

Bob and Susan - 4-10-2008 at 05:35 AM

stickers i think he may be correct...good plumber

just got my pool heater to work with a bigger propane regulator

the manuf never even thought od that

rob - 4-10-2008 at 09:07 AM

Lencho - for the 220v heater at the laundry, the plumber just picked off one leg of the 3-phase. The 3-phase services have seperate meters to the (monophasic) domestic services. We actually have two 3-phase services at the ranch:

- agricultural (ranch well for irrigation) which is CHEAP

- service to the laundry/workshop where tariff is WAY higher - it's a commercial tariff (I don't think there is such a thing as a domestic 3-phase tariff, but someone will point out I am incorrect . . ). The commercial 3-phase STARTS at $70US a bi-month before you use anything, and goes up from there. The only reason I keep it is a distant dream of using a heavy welder at the shop.

Hook - 4-10-2008 at 11:11 AM

I've often read that propane in Mexico is very dirty propane that clogs regulators, orifices, etc., much faster than in the US.

Since the on-demand heater is refusing to stay lit, yet it worked for a time, maybe the pilot orifice just needs an occasional cleaning, if it is accessible. If the volume of the delivery pipe is the issue, why would it have worked in the first place>

rob - 4-10-2008 at 02:07 PM

Before embarking on an expensive replacement project, you can bet that we tried everything INCLUDING cleaning the pilot jet orifices AND taking the units down to Cabo to the distributor "service". The units were returned as repaired in precisely the same condition they were given - nonworking . .

The water volume issue was certainly less noticeable 5 years ago - maybe the pressure tank has become less efficient, maybe the heater water volume sensor is less sensitive - quien sabe?

All I know is that for the first time in 5 years I can take a hot shower without fiddling with the hot water tap, tracking where the pressure tank/pump is in its cycle and being constantly poised to leap out of the way of freezing or scalding water.

Life is great.

Hook - 4-10-2008 at 02:11 PM

Rob, thanks for taking the time to let us know of your experiences. I will have to make a decision like you in the next year.

Vince - 4-11-2008 at 11:38 AM

I'm on my 3rd standard Mexican water heater in 36 years @ Coyote Bay, which speaks well for keeping it simple. The on demand sure has to prove itself before trying it in those harsh conditions where the water is a bit brackish.

durrelllrobert - 4-13-2008 at 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BMG
bought the pilotless model. Was about M$2200. That's much less than the demand heaters I've seen sold in the U.S.

My Bosc was bought in US for $1100 + another 200 for stainless steel flue pipe. It has electronic ignition using 110 + transformer. I hear the battery powered ignition units they sell in MX eat batteries. Also, based on photo you really need to extend flue pipe. Bosc says min length is 4 foot and cap needs to be 1 foot higher than anything within 10 foot around it. :bounce:

BMG - 4-13-2008 at 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by durrelllrobert
My Bosc was bought in US for $1100 + another 200 for stainless steel flue pipe. It has electronic ignition using 110 + transformer. I hear the battery powered ignition units they sell in MX eat batteries. Also, based on photo you really need to extend flue pipe. Bosc says min length is 4 foot and cap needs to be 1 foot higher than anything within 10 foot around it. :bounce:

So what is the reason for extending the flue pipe? Seems to be working great as it is. No discoloring on the paint yet.

I can't even remember now if it takes 1 or 2 'D' cell batteries. I have no idea how long it or they will last.

rob - 4-13-2008 at 09:22 AM

Lencho - like so many things here at the ranch - we make it up as we go along. In retrospect, an engine-driven welder would have made a lot of sense (and its something we will probably get as we start the planned development).

Right now, its cheaper just to leave the 3-phase where it is and keep usage to a minimum!

Not for the first time, I wish I had been a builder/mechanic rather than a computer salesman!

Taco de Baja - 4-13-2008 at 10:05 AM

The Bosch Aquastar with battery ignition I had in San Juan Capistrano on HARD well water. was a POS.

At low flow volume it would not ignite.
If you had more than one faucet running neither one would get very hot water.
The 2 D batteries worked ok for the first year, then I had to replace at 6 months, then 2 months then every month! Even though a volt meter said they were putting out 1.1 or more volts each. I eventually hard wired a 3 volt plug in AC/DC converter to the thing, ind of defeating the whole energy saving aspect.....

The reason for a longer flue vent is more efficient burning. In a fire place, the taller the chimney, the better the draw of O2 from the room; I think the sane is true for gas water heaters.

vandenberg - 4-13-2008 at 11:57 AM

Quote:

In my previous post I referred to my 2 40 gallon conventional propane waterheaters. Have been going since 1991 without ever any problem, and still going strong. At $ 189.00 each, it will take a lot of convincing to go to your Bosch on demand unit at the cost you state.

[Edited on 4-13-2008 by vandenberg]

BMG - 4-13-2008 at 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg

Still much too early to tell if going with the tankless heater was a good move or not, but I'm sure I wouldn't have done it if the cost had been anywhere near U$1100. As it was, the cost of a replacement 15 gal electric heater was within U$30 of the demand heater. Won't be hard to switch back to a conventional water heater again if we need to. So far, zero problems with the pilotless Bosch (knock on cinder block.)

Very little noticeable change in temperature when one of the other faucets is used or a toilet flushed. We do have a pressure system on our lines with a range of 30 - 50 psi. I doubt the heater would operate well, if at all, on gravity feed water pressure.

I'm not convinced that I need to extend the flue. Nice blue flame when it's operating. With the big open side vents, it looks like you could run the unit with vent cap totally sealed off. Even that paper UPS sticker is stick like new on the flue cap. I'm going to leave well enough alone for now and go take a loooonnnngggg hot shower. :spingrin:

(Just kidding, I've had my weekly shower already.)