BajaNomad - Different prices for non residents

Different prices for non residents

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sd - 4-24-2008 at 10:43 AM

Is it OK to charge tourists or non permanent residents different prices than those charged to local residents of Baja?

DENNIS - 4-24-2008 at 11:07 AM

No, it's not OK anymore than stealing your property is OK just because you can afford to buy it and the thief can't.
What , specifically, are purchasing with the double price tag?

osoflojo - 4-24-2008 at 11:44 AM

Happens all the time, everything from taxi rides to "locals night" at the cantina.

bajalera - 4-24-2008 at 11:56 AM

Well of course it's okay, because we gringos are all so rich.

I thought everybody knew that.

sd - 4-24-2008 at 12:00 PM

Dennis,

Some recent discussion had my attention when it was explained locals get a cheaper price.

I do not agree with this practice. I am curious how others feel, and appreciate your response.

DENNIS - 4-24-2008 at 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalera
Well of course it's okay, because we gringos are all so rich.

I thought everybody knew that.

"Rich and Stupid" as the saying would go if there was one.

sd - 4-24-2008 at 12:07 PM

osoflojo and bajalera,

Thanks for your reply.

Others here use this practice. Would love for you to enlighten me on why.

Traveling Baja is not inexpensive, and most of us save to make our trips. I also think many of us bring items with us to give away to those less fortunate. So why are we charged more in many cases?

bajaretreat - 4-24-2008 at 12:10 PM

When I lived in Todos Santos a few years ago, my housekeeper (and good friend) would always go shopping at the markets and Segundas with me, thus getting me the better local prices....If ya can't beat 'em, go around 'em.

zforbes - 4-24-2008 at 01:27 PM

This happens in the states as well. I live in an area that gets a lot of tourist traffic. Locals get discounted prices at a some restaurants and hotels/motels in the area (usually around 10%). When I have visitors, I register them mysef at a motel to take advantage of the local discount.

Same thing holds true up at Mammoth Lakes/Mountain. I would be surprised if this isn't a common practice in heavily touristed areas.

As a local, I don't have a problem with it here, and I expect it to be the case when I am the tourist. I consider it a part of the overall expense of the trip. Right? Wrong? Probably depends if you are the tourist or the homey.

oldlady - 4-24-2008 at 01:38 PM

My experience has been that in any country where prices are not published, as in grocery store or on a menu, those prices can vary by whatever criteria the seller chooses (good ol' capitalism, charge what you think you can get). As a buyer I have two options; offer a lower price (which has almost always worked in Mexican shops) or not buy the item and look for it elsehwere.
Is it okay? Sure, anyone ought to be able to sell whatever they want for whatever they want.

Capt. George - 4-24-2008 at 01:43 PM

Are Mexicans charged more for services/supplies in the U.S. of A.? I think not.

Especially disturbing when the practice is flaunted. Rice & Beans in San Ignacio actually had seperate prices printed on menus, in pesos (espanol)and in dollars(English). Asked the owner,"oops, must be a misprint, yeah right!

The dollar prices were higher for the smae items. If Roberto chooses to give local Mexicanos a discount, go right ahead, but do it with a tad more discression..I no longer stop there.

Nothing New.

MrBillM - 4-24-2008 at 01:47 PM

Back when I was 11 (1956), We were in a Tijuana restaurant with a family friend who lived part-time in Ensenada. After the waiter gave us the "Gringo" English menus, the friend asked for the Mexican menu and pointed out to us that virtually everything was cheaper on the Local menu.

Caveat Emptor.

It used to be a standing joke that the Liquor stores in San Felipe would overcharge you if you didn't verify the price first. I've seen it happen many times.

You either learn the lesson or keep being overcharged.

Darwin.

sd - 4-24-2008 at 01:59 PM

Thanks for all of your responses.

I would like to hear from those who provide any type of service in Baja. Motel, resort, restaurant, charter boats, etc.

A different topic, but I was once given a 7 percent discount for using my Visa credit card. With no reservations, I asked about room availability at a Loreto motel. I offered cash when told the price, and they told me I would get a discount if I used Visa!

Visa Discounts ?

MrBillM - 4-24-2008 at 02:14 PM

I would run like Heck from any business that offered me a discount for using a Credit Card as opposed to CASH.

Since the vendor PAYS a transaction fee to the Credit Card company, there is only one reason why they'd prefer to have your CC info and we know what that is.

Pinch the Gringo!

Sharksbaja - 4-24-2008 at 02:22 PM

Funny you noticed! Me and a couple buddies were at a local taqueria in Mulege a while back. After rreviewing the menu my friend ordered off the English version.

Man was he surprised when he went to pay the bill. While waiting to pay he picked up the Spanish language menu. He went berzerk and had the whole place watching him.
I forgot about the old switcheroo. I usheredhim out as he refused to pay the inflated price. I think it amounted to 5 pesos or so but it was the principal that mattered.
Well maybe not, he was a Wall Street accountant before he dropped out. :lol:

vandenberg - 4-24-2008 at 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sd
.

A different topic, but I was once given a 7 percent discount for using my Visa credit card. With no reservations, I asked about room availability at a Loreto motel. I offered cash when told the price, and they told me I would get a discount if I used Visa!

Points to 3 possibilities:

1). They have an "IN" with Visa and get a usage reward. (Highly unlikely, since they usually charge a transaction fee of around 3 %)
2). They like your card information for future"shady" dealings.
or
3). They ,like the government, does not trust anyone with "their" money, like employees. ( most likely ) :biggrin:

[Edited on 4-24-2008 by vandenberg]

Discount vs. Premium

Lee - 4-24-2008 at 02:34 PM

Residency has it's priviledges -- it's done this way in Hawaii too.

Tell them you're ''local'' and get discounted. I like it.

sd - 4-24-2008 at 02:37 PM

vandenberg -

I feel your #3 might be the reason. I was at a well known place, and had stayed there before.

I am an aware traveler, and of course I was concerned they would use my credit card for other purposes. I even approached them on that subject when told about the discount. They could not explain to me how they would benefit, but I went ahead and used the card with no problems.

Thanks

vandenberg - 4-24-2008 at 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee

Tell them you're ''local'' and get discounted. I like it.

Maybe tell them you're "loco" and get it free. :?:

comitan - 4-24-2008 at 03:03 PM

I have to agree with Old Lady, If you want a cheaper price make an offer and you will more than likely get the Mexican price.

Riom - 4-24-2008 at 03:13 PM

It's not just on touristy stuff - applies also (or perhaps especially) to real estate.

Years ago I was looking at buying property in France. Went into a real estate office, asked in French for a listing of certain types of properties, found one that looked interesting (on the French listing) and got a more detailed information sheet.

That sheet had been drawn up for English buyers (local buyers don't expect it) and included a price that was close to double the price on the French summary listing. When I queried this, I was told "that's the "prix anglais"" - the price listed for those who don't speak French!

In this case, making a minimal attempt to be a "local" saved me a lot. (not that I speak much French - just real estate, travel and food vocabulary really - but it was enough).

Getting back to charging tourists more than locals, it does seem to be common in areas that treat tourists as walking ATMs and don't care what impression they give or if the tourist comes back. And then they wonder why tourism to their area is declining.

in ensenada

sylens - 4-24-2008 at 03:27 PM

particularly during winter holiday season when tourism tends to be down a bit, lots of local radio commercials advertise 10 or 15% discounts for local residents. ad said, "just bring in your 'comprobante de domicilio'" (water or light bill, e.g.).

we kept planning to do it, but never got around tuit :lol:

sd - 4-24-2008 at 03:27 PM

Riom -

"And they wonder why tourism to their area is declining"

Very well said!

sd - 4-24-2008 at 03:34 PM

Sylens -

I for one do not have any problem with that. Having locals fill up the place during slow times is OK business with me.

I have a HUGE problem when one group of people is charged a price different than others. As discussed here, many times it is in writing (different menu prices)!

Some say they just "charge what they can"

My experience is limited to Baja, but I feel cheated when I am charged a great deal more only because I am a tourist.

DianaT - 4-24-2008 at 03:38 PM

sd

Yes, recently someone did state that they thought it was OK to charge gingos more and even encouraged them to do so. We guess that some people think that just because someone has a little more money, they "deserve" to pay more.

We agree with others that it is NOT ok, yet we are realists and know that it happens. We have walked into stores and when the price quoted to us is really high, we turn around, leave and shop elsewhere. Yes, we barter, but when the starting price is obviously a major GRINGO price, we are gone.

On the other hand, there are times we pay the gringo price when we still think it is a fair deal for us, and what we think is a fair deal for the seller, but we often tell the seller that we know we are paying the gringo price, and they just smile.

Two menus in restaurants, no, we are gone---won't play that game.

Just our opinion----like we said in another post about a different topic, it is situational----guess just like most things in Baja

John and Diane

[Edited on 4-24-2008 by jdtrotter]

Bob and Susan - 4-24-2008 at 03:53 PM

"Two menus in restaurants"

YES one is in ENGLISH and the other in SPANISH!!!

DianaT - 4-24-2008 at 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
"Two menus in restaurants"

YES one is in ENGLISH and the other in SPANISH!!!

Opps, we were referring to the two menus someone else talked about----two sets of prices. :tumble:

John and Diane

Iflyfish - 4-24-2008 at 04:04 PM

I always use the Mexican Menu. I know I must be aware that I look like a walking bank.

I really don't like the mordida of it, and consider it as such, really a form of institutionalized graft. Money is money and I really don't like mine taken in this way. It is this sort of practice that gives Mexico a bad name. It is also very bad business practice.

I consider the practice to be immoral and will not frequent a place that does that to me. I understand how it works, I am not stupid, I also know that tourism brings with it increased prices for locals, that too is a reality. None the less I would not do that to someone else. I feel like I am being used to subsidise others when this happens to me. I would hope that a business has enough control over it's product to be able to assess and charge what they really need to be successful with ONE menu. Charging the white, foreign, or tourist guy more is not a way to bring them back. When they find out they have been robbed, they will not be back. Look at what has happened to Baja tourism. This issue is only an example of why tourists are not coming to Baja. Why go someplace where you are seen as a sheep to be fleesed? It is this attitude that most rankles tourists, a society that supports this way of doing business exists along a continuum that has this form of petty extortion on one end and kidnapping on the other.

I did provide pro bono services in my practice, but that was not based upon the sort of clothing worn, or the type of car they drove, but upon circumstances that changed in the person's life while I was working with them. I have always been clear about my prices and up front about them. When I was not, when I worked in an agency with a sliding fee scale, they had trouble keeping their doors open while clients milked the system. Lack of clarity sets up games and games end with bad feelings.

I have so much to spend, a budget, and if Pedro steals it from me then Delores won't get it where she works cause I won't have it to spend there.

This becomes even more of an issue when one gets on a fixed income and inflation raises prices for all. I am very worried about how much we will be able to travel in the future given the raising price of fuel. To be hit by that and then by inflated prices because I am a tourist really rankles me.

I know that Mexico has a history of graft, corruption, nepotism and chronicaly low pay. I am not naive about how all this works. I just think that it is very poor business planning. Very short sighted.

I went to a restaurant in Mexcio in a town that I love, was way over charged and will NEVER go back. They could have made hundreds of dollars off me, in the long run, but now their theft leaves them with the receipt from one dinner. It so upset me that I cannot even recall what I ate there. Only once is all it takes sometimes. It is a very short sighted business plan to have a dual pricing system. Short term it pays off, but long term, it generates bad feelings and the victim of the graft resents it.

It is interesting to find myself in Bill's boat, I just won't go back. Life is too short and there are honest business people everywhere. I don't want bad feelings. I don't want to play games. Life is too short and there are lots of businesses that do not engage in this practice. I cannot imagine why a business owner would want to place themselves in the position of deciding what their client can pay and then charging accordingly. It seems to me to be burdensome to the business person and a real set up to lose the business of the person paying more...killing the golden goose. Bad business practice in my view. Short sighted business practice in my view. Generates "them and us" thinking in my view. Reinforces a pernicious contempt of the client which can and does generalize. This practice creates a mileau of bad feelings, one that I don't like to be in.

Iflyfish

sd - 4-24-2008 at 04:09 PM

jdtrotter -

It happens, but when it does it bothers me. When it is encouraged it amazes me.

Capt. George -

It happened to me at another restaurant near there. They gave me the spanish menu, and I had seen the price. They took it away and gave me the english menu, with a higher price for the exact item. We worked on their "exchange rate" at time of payment.

Bob and Susan,

I followed your building progress and that was very kind of you to share. It made me happier I am just a tourist, do to all the work and expense you went to. Hope it is working well for you. Someday, I am coming for a visit.

Iflyfish - 4-24-2008 at 04:34 PM

A local practice of providing a coupon or local incentive related to the time of year is different than intentionally bilking someone BECAUSE they are a tourist, woman, black, hispanic, tall, short, blind, you get the picture. They can offer the same discount by saying something like "tell 'em KBAT radio sent you in. Or mention the name of the newspaper, radio station etc. with out discriminating due to membership in a perceived class. Because I am white, a tourist, dressed like a foreigner, etc. should not be the basis of a discount.

Let do it to Mexicans here in the US. Lets charge Mexicans more for their food. Then come up with a rationale why we should do that. Get Rush Limbaugh on it, or Bill O'Reilly and then you will really hear why this is patriotic and good for us. I can hear it now "they make more money here than they do at home", "they are paid more here than at home", "they are rich in their own country", "look at that fancy car, they can afford to pay more", "they won't be back around here and may never know". Makes me want to go and extort a Mexican tourist and then justify it to myself.

Man, I am hotter on this than I thought. It really does generate bad feelings.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 4-24-2008 at 04:36 PM

Now, sd, what would you tell your friends about eating at that restaurant?

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 4-24-2008 at 04:38 PM

JD,

Would you tell your friends to avoid that restaurant? Would you recommend it to a friend?

Iflyfish

sd - 4-24-2008 at 04:49 PM

Iflyfish -

I will NEVER be back to any place with this business practice.

I have made enough trips to know how much each tourist dollar means to the economy and business owner. I normally meet outstanding people that take great care of me. Many great people!

Skipjack Joe - 4-24-2008 at 04:51 PM

Earlier today I stumbled upon Pam's website in which she writes about the fact that the conservation laws in Loreto are being ignored by some fishermen. Apparently the yellowtail are protected during their spawning time but someone reported 3 tons netted right in the middle of this period. The marine park is virtually right in town so it couldn't have been very difficult not to notice.

Now maybe that seems to be unrelated to this thread but I see a commonality here.

The cultural mentality of bending the rules here and there to make a profit applies to so many things. It's pervasive. In this case the Mexicans aren't taking advantage of the gringos, they're taking advantage of themselves.

shari - 4-24-2008 at 05:10 PM

ummm...hate to go against the grain...BUT...I'm all for sliding scale. I really dont have a problem if a local restaurant takes a few pesos off for the construction workers that come there to eat...who makes $10 a day. There is no way they could charge a "decent" price for the food these workers consume...they go there every day to eat...are good steady customers whereas a tourist may eat there once or twice and I'm sure can afford and don't mind paying $6 for a heaping plate of yummy food for dinner. Circumstance is everything as Ms.Trotter mentioned. I hate to think of prices being inflated here because of an influx of tourism...therefore I believe it is fine to continue charging the locals...who are the main consumers...the "normal" price...call it a discount if you wish. I think the restaurant people should charge a "fair" price for a nice dinner...it's WORTH it...but also think it's important not to raise prices so the locals cant' eat there anymore. Where real estate is concerned....hey, it's anyones call...some people think $15,000 is too much for a 2.5 acre ocean front lot....whereas others are like....where do I sign!!!! Someone once asked me about an ocean front lot and I said...Oh it's WAAAAYYYYYY too much money...which it was for us or anyone in our village...it was kind of a joke...Who would EVER pay THAT much????? Well, someone came and couldn't believe it was soooooo cheap...so you see...if someone thinks that for example $15,000 is a gringo price...well..darn...the lot is worth 10 times that anyway you look at it.

bajajudy - 4-24-2008 at 05:18 PM

Every resort I have ever lived in has had prices for "locals" It is an appreciation for your business which is year round....it also gets the "locals" to patronize your business year round which can make or break you.

stanburn - 4-24-2008 at 05:19 PM

Shari,

Right On! I also don't have a problem with a sliding scale, especially if you can't function in the language of the land!

Flame away, I just watched my 2nd division soccer team lose, so I can take it!

David K - 4-24-2008 at 05:22 PM

Hmmm... well, I am not surprised if we gringos get quoted a higher price... as we don't use the services in Mexico on a frequent basis.

For example, I get lower materials price than do 'home owners' as I am in the installation business. It is competition and the free market that various distributors offer deals for my repeat business.

When I needed to get a flat tire repaired at Bahia de los Angeles (across from the Xitlali market) I was quoted a price higher than a Mexican had paid before (I understood the language exchange)... so be it. I am a tourist on vacation, and can afford it.

The bunch of you who think this is unjust and isn't fair (like in the US of A) need to stop whining and don't think of trying to change their way! That would be as bad as the way we pander to all the Spanish speakers up here! Let Mexico stay Mexico! I pay in dollars (always accepted) just so I give an extra 10% or so when I buy products or sevices... on purpose.

Another note, I live in a 'tourist region' (San Diego County) and I have NEVER seen special prices for locals at restaurants, etc. The only place locals get a break is at Disneyland, I have seen.

Osprey - 4-24-2008 at 05:31 PM

Shari, there are a dozen or more little hidey hole restaurants around this little village who have some tables and chairs out front, a couple in the back. In the back, day laborers get hot, tasty meals for a buck or two while the wandering gringo visitors on ocassion pay $3 for the same fare. Without the ocassional gringo walkin the restauranteur couldn't afford to feed the ditch digger an affordable meal. Here it all works out, nobody is offended. My Mexican neighbors are smart enough to have only one menu -- no use offending anyone. If you come here, see the people and the prices, learn our little secret, become offended by it, hope you get the hell out and don't come back.

DENNIS - 4-24-2008 at 05:32 PM

I didn't think this thread was about one group or another getting a lower price. If there is a stated price, the problem is being charged a price higher than that. If there is no stated price, you're on your own.

Caveat Emptor or Noblesse Oblige?

The Gull - 4-24-2008 at 05:41 PM

Those who cannot read a Spanish menu should be charged 20% extra since the proprietor had to get his menu translated and extra copies printed to accommodate.

Those lodging establishments which have English speaking staff should charge 20% more for non-Spanish speaking Gringos, because bi-lingual staff gets paid more.

If you disagree with the above, stay in the US or Canada and spend more of your money there for less service and courtesy for the same commodities.

As was suggested in previous posts, use the Spanish menu and keep track of the costs of items. If you lose track, just ask for a menu at the time you receive La Cuenta to compare.

A factoid was provided one time to me and I didn't bother to research it. I was told: "It is against Mexican Law for restaurants to have the menu ONLY in foreign currency" - that means like US dollars or Canadian loonies.

I would love to hear from a Citizen of Mexico on this board who can shed some light on that claim.

sd - 4-24-2008 at 05:41 PM

Very interesting responses, thank you everyone.

Shari, what is the difference in price for the same meal or beer for a local versus a tourist?

I am sure it is a struggle to get by on $10 per day, if that is an average pay for your area. Does the government help in any way? I think they will assist in purchasing a boat, am I right? I take all the information in I can so that I can better understand.

Has tourism helped the average family in your area?

Thanks

Osprey - 4-24-2008 at 05:59 PM

While Shari is gathering her thoughts, allow me to ask you why your questions are making blood shoot out of my eyes? Can you try some other area of inquiry that will allow us to see you as some one seeking info without appearing to be a miserly, ungraceful tourist insinuating your hosts are cheats and liars? Please.

sd - 4-24-2008 at 06:10 PM

Osprey -

If a local needs a discount from $3.00 to $2.00 due to economic conditions I understand. I love the little restaurants, and would much prefer to be seated with the locals, adds more flavor to my trip.

I personally have seen VERY wide variations in prices charged when I am in Baja. It bothers me.

After my first trip driving down with nothing to give, I never made that mistake again. I use this forum to better each trip.

Many areas (the best remote locations) provide very little opportunity for the locals. I now help as I can with items to give away. I like doing that!

Thanks for your comment.

sd - 4-24-2008 at 06:25 PM

Osprey -

I had not seen your second reply when I answered, sorry.

No ill intent meant by my questions.

Am I a "miserly, ungraceful tourist"?

Have I called any host a cheat or liar?

I am a tourist that has loved my Baja trips. Nearly everyone has been first class. I have enjoyed several towns, stayed at great places and look forward to finding new spots.

Do I think it is wrong to be charged double for a meal, yes. Is it OK? Not for me. Others, I asked the question, and I now know more than I did.

Your opinions are fine. Thats how you feel, its all good.

bajalera - 4-24-2008 at 06:26 PM

Whatever our pesonal views of this matter happen to be, it occurs world-wide and isn't likely to disappear any time soon.

David K - 4-24-2008 at 06:31 PM

Charged double??? As in $4 instead of $2 or $40 instead of $20??

You ordered without knowing the cost of what you were having??

All restaurants and taco stands I have been to have the prices or will tell you up front... :wow:

Sorry you got a bum deal in Baja... be careful in the future!

sd - 4-24-2008 at 06:45 PM

David K -

No bum deal in Baja, I enjoy every trip.

I am extremely generous and know how important my $$ are to the business owner when I stop for a meal or lodging.

I do want to be treated fairly, and dual pricing is difficult for me. I do feel for the locals trying to get by on moderate income. I honestly am concerned and interested in how they make it. I have been told of government subsidies when purchasing a panga for example, but do not know if programs such as this exist. I would like to know more.

You have traveled to many remote spots that appeal to me. In your opinion, will more tourism improve these areas or make the basics too expensive for the residents?

Thanks

longlegsinlapaz - 4-24-2008 at 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Hmmm... well, I am not surprised if we gringos get quoted a higher price... as we don't use the services in Mexico on a frequent basis.

WE don't? Spoken as a true occasional tourist!! David, you might want to keep in mind that there are people who live here full time & are on limited income and who can't afford paying "gringo" prices! Your "I pay in dollars (always accepted) just so I give an extra 10% or so when I buy products or sevices... on purpose." is pure arrogance & BS...most towns do give change close to the current exchange rate & PEMEX has a standard fixed 10%. If, on the other hand your bill for groceries or services is $1,000 pesos & you toss down a $100 USD bill & tell them to "keep the change", then IMO, it's "big-spenders" like you who perpetuate the myth that all gringos are rich & fuel the separate local vs gringo prices! I hope when you retire you have a fixed monthly retirement income of $1,000; then you just might gain some understanding of fair & equal prices for everyone, regardless of nationality.

I do shop around, especially for construction materials. Because I was willing to order & pay up front for cement & rebar for my entire casa, I got better pricing than my first architect did! Same on bids, I get several & each supplier knows they're in a competitive situation. When I talk with a supplier I haven't dealt with before, I tell them I'm a full-time resident, not a tourist or part-timer, and it does make a difference in the price. They're in business to make a profit & I know they won't be taking a loss by lowering prices to a win/win level.

I know some La Paz hotels do offer discounted pricing if a resident makes the reservation for friends or family, but that's not a situation I've ever been in a position to use.

I agree with Judy, the full-timers are the steady customer base year round; but then I rarely eat in a resort setting...more commonly local places where the prices are posted for all to see.

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
I am a tourist on vacation, and can afford it.

Well bully for you!! We aren't all you, try walking a mile in someone else's shoes for a change!

I treat the people I live amongst & do business with fairly & with respect & I expect the same in return. And....yes! I do tip based on good service.

And don't call people whiners just because they might be in a different financial situation than you are! :mad:

DENNIS - 4-24-2008 at 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sd
I have been told of government subsidies when purchasing a panga for example, but do not know if programs such as this exist. I would like to know more.

Well, it's your thread and you asked so this won't be a hijacking.

Years back, when the traditional panga hit the scene, they were manufactured with government assistance and made available only to members of fishing co-ops. I don't know if the government is still involved but, anybody can now own a panga.

sd - 4-24-2008 at 07:12 PM

Thanks Dennis -

Sorry if I changed direction of my original posting. Just trying to listen to the responses to my question and learn from them.

Take care

Baja&Back - 4-24-2008 at 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George
Are Mexicans charged more for services/supplies in the U.S. of A.? I think not.

Actually, this is done all thru Hawaii - to anyone, regardless of nationality. Every store & restaurant has Tourist season & off season prices & menus. Locals are issued a Kamaaina Card or show Hawaiian state ID & get 20% off everything in the winter.
Why should they get ripped off along with the haole tourists?

Happens in a lot of tourist places across the world.

Gadget - 4-24-2008 at 10:33 PM

sd,

Hmmm??? Seems like such an easy thing to avoid. Much like the gauntlet near the border. Travel in daylight. Easy!

I make my dollars into pesos when I cross the border...ALWAYS.

Things that are priced in pesos in Mexico:
The gas pump dials
The packaged food at the grocery stores
The fresh cold beer
The food menu in your hand or on the wall
The room rate
A bag of ice
This list could go on and on
Pay the price posted in pesos for the public to see.
You will always loose paying with dollars IMHO

I mean, if you are willing to pay a price that is quoted to you then its all good, right?

How would you know or why would you care what someone else pays?

Pay with pesos and avoid the exchange hassle or rip-off.

I have always felt that my vacation time in Baja is a great value for multipal reasons.

I guess if you worry that you are being over charged, then you probably are for some reason.

[Edited on 4-25-2008 by Gadget]

Iflyfish - 4-24-2008 at 11:36 PM

I like what you have to say Gadget and Longlegs, and I need to adjust my thinking.

If I feel victimized in a situation, then I guess that is my own fault. I am not following good practice if I come out feeling used or abused by the double standard. I simply need to not accept it and negotiate from strength. I have not liked that trait in many travelers I have run accross, but I now see that negotiating down to what the traffic will bear in not victimizing anyone, it is what is necessary for establishing fair trade. My brother once told me that "if you do not negotiate in Mexico that you are seen as a chump" and I guess there is truth to that. It also protects the interests of local gringos who must deal with this double standard if I negotiate and don't accept prices as fixed. I need to accept that I may be seen as a cheapskate rather than a chump. It really isn't personal and I need to remind myself of this. If I don't read the Mexican Menu and order off that then I really am being stupid.

Lesson for me, be very clear out front what the costs are in pesos and decide if it is worth is or not. Negotiate in every situation that I can since I can assume that I am being offered a higher price just because I am a gringo, that is unless I see prices posted for the item I am interested in. Even in that situation I probably need to negotiate. See if I can find out what the "lay of the land" is before I purchase. Recognise that in Mexico I am seen as the source of subsidy for others lower prices and that local folks see me as the source of resolve for this issue.

I must be aware that I am dealing with a double standard and adjust to that. It looks like my "tips" are built in. That may be the best way to deal with this. If I am paying the tip out front, maybe I should not worry about providing one at the back end, or at least provide less given that I have already paid that out front. I have looked at tough minded tourists who have negotiated everything to the bottom line and been critical of them, they may know something that I do not know.

Based upon posts from people I respect it appears that I have personalized what is a cultural difference and need to adjust my thinking. I guess being on a fixed income, facing higer oil prices and losses on investments have me examining my budget and expenses. It looks like I don't need to be concerned about being generous, someone else is already doing that for me by taking what I might give before I have a chance to give it.

I do have strong feelings about this and it is one of the cultural differences that I really do not like. I understand the built in corruption, I just don't like it. It is clear that the problem is mine to deal with. I guess if one travels in Mexico one simply has to become accustomed to being seen as a gringo to be milked for every dollar at every turn and then be expected to appreciate it. I guess this is the reality and the strength of my reaction is that is based upon a hope that this could be different. Not in my life time.

I appreciate the discussion of this issue. For me this discussion is another way to look at a cultural difference and to try to sort out how to handle it. I appreciate the candor of the posts.

Iflyfish

si-po

BFS - 4-25-2008 at 02:43 AM

I think its ok too.
Disneyland and Legoland offer big discounts to local residents.
Here in Chile the National Parks have different prices for residents (foreign or national), and foreign residents and they are vastly different.
Torres del Paine NP (out front here) charges $30 usd for foreigners and $5 usd for residents, ouch!
In the heavily tourist dependant areas locals are trying make a living in a very short season so they escalate prices to stock up for the scarce winter months.
Its slightly more subtle here than in Baja however.
Restaurants do not have two different menus, instead you can the order the "menu" which isnt advertised anywhere (I think in Mexico its called the "plato del dia"?) and consists of a yummy and filling 3 course meal and usually very cheap.
All the locals order the "menu" and gringos are welcome to as well but they have to know about it. Most dont.
There is a further hidden drink that is not advertised anywhere that is called an "atencion de la casa" and its an after dinner liquor type drink and its free! Even some locals dont know about this one but all restaurants offer it here.
Ive found that in Baja as in elsewhere as a local resident you just have to insist on the local price and you will get it. It will usually not be offered to you up front, but its kind of like a game and you need to show your colours before playing.
I know that annoys many people (my wife being for example :fire

, but if you cant stand the heat....

Aq

Capt. George - 4-25-2008 at 04:25 AM

Rice and Beans had the Peso and Dollar prices on the "same" menu, side by side. Considerably more on the dollar side...How's that for arrogance?

The Gull - 4-25-2008 at 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George
Rice and Beans had the Peso and Dollar prices on the "same" menu, side by side. Considerably more on the dollar side...How's that for arrogance?

Going there sounds questionable. Maybe you should stop.

Osprey - 4-25-2008 at 06:09 AM

When you use dollars in countries that have other currency, you are making everybody in the country your banker. They have to go to the bank (sooner or later), make the trip, spend the gas money, stand in line, hope they went on the right time/day not to lose on the transaction. Once in Mulege my boss told the Pemex guy to fill up his moho. When it was time to pay my boss didn't like the exchange rate, asked me to intercede -- I sided with the gas guy. The gas was already in the rig, when the attendant got the dollars he became the banker, free to charge whatever he thought the banking service was worth. That was a long time ago -- the situation is the same at this very minute. I haven't used dollars to buy anything in the last 13 years --- said another way "In Mexico, the peso makes no enemies".

DENNIS - 4-25-2008 at 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George
Rice and Beans had the Peso and Dollar prices on the "same" menu, side by side. Considerably more on the dollar side...How's that for arrogance?

Arrogant? Maybe, but, at least they're up front about it. Peso/dollar fluctuation is hard to keep up with.

Don Alley - 4-25-2008 at 06:35 AM

Bargaining...

I tried that at a Loreto second hand store. I needed a small pot to boil water and dye some material.

I pulled one off the shelf. Just an old pan, worth at most a dollar or two.

"How much for this?"

"200 pesos."

Oh.

So, behind it was another, just a bit smaller, clearly much more used, even dented.

"OK, how much for THIS one?"

"240 pesos."

:lol:

longlegsinlapaz - 4-25-2008 at 06:59 AM

Don, you just thought you were in a second-hand store! You were obviously in an antique store! :lol:

David K - 4-25-2008 at 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sd
David K -

No bum deal in Baja, I enjoy every trip.

I am extremely generous and know how important my $$ are to the business owner when I stop for a meal or lodging.

I do want to be treated fairly, and dual pricing is difficult for me. I do feel for the locals trying to get by on moderate income. I honestly am concerned and interested in how they make it. I have been told of government subsidies when purchasing a panga for example, but do not know if programs such as this exist. I would like to know more.

You have traveled to many remote spots that appeal to me. In your opinion, will more tourism improve these areas or make the basics too expensive for the residents?

Thanks

Perhaps they make it BECAUSE they charge more to tourists? If you really like your Baja experience, then don't let the price thing bug you...

As for your question about the remote areas I go to... there are NO residents... The 'basics' is what I bring in my truck, as I am camping. The towns I have stayed in or near, when I am not so remote, are already tourist oriented (Bahia de L.A., San Felipe, El Rosario) as I think most of Baja is.

Again, just try and enjoy your Baja trips... dual pricing is a fact of life... use only pesos and ask for the Spanish menu for the 'local' prices.

Capt. George - 4-25-2008 at 07:36 AM

Gull have never gone back, never will..

Osprey, when in Mexico, I use only pesos........

Don, looked at an old bedframe in Yucatan, beat up from the hurricane...needed a temporay for a beach shack....

How much says I, "Senior, dos mil pesos, says the bandito"......Is that with two putas says I, and adios!

longlegsinlapaz - 4-25-2008 at 07:40 AM

What's this??? The old "Do as I say, rather than do as I do" approach? :lol:

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
I pay in dollars (always accepted) just so I give an extra 10% or so when I buy products or sevices... on purpose.

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
use only pesos and ask for the Spanish menu for the 'local' prices.

Oso - 4-25-2008 at 07:41 AM

Why would a merchant charge a tourist more than a local? For the same reason a dog licks his privates. Because he can. When I was 17, riding freight trains across the Northwest, I worked for a time in the canneries in Spokane. One night a local cop was checking me out. I wasn't doing anything illegal and he wasn't being rude about it, just doing his job. We actually got into a fairly friendly conversation and in the course of it I learned a local "secret". It seems that all the local merchants raised their prices on almost everything during the harvest season when the migrants were in town. The locals who were known to the merchants did not pay cash at the register. They signed chits. After the season, when the migrants were gone, they settled up at "regular" prices. This wasn't soaking the rich. This was blatently taking advantage of the most disadvantaged just because they "weren't from around here" and the merchants could get away with it.

David K - 4-25-2008 at 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Hmmm... well, I am not surprised if we gringos get quoted a higher price... as we don't use the services in Mexico on a frequent basis.

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
I am a tourist on vacation, and can afford it.

Good morning to you to, Long Legs...

I was talking about MY situation and used 'gringo' to mean tourists on vacation... my bad.

However, when you moved to Mexico to try and live like a local on what they spend... maybe a non-tourist area would have been better than La Paz? As long as you look like a gringo (tourist, foreignor, etc.), you will be treated as such by those who don't know you.

Dollars ARE the second currency in Baja... at least in the northern state... I see locals using dollars all the time in markets to buy food, etc. If I ever got a hint that it was disrespectful to use dollars instead of being benefitial to them, I would use only pesos. A friend of mine owns a Pemex station and a motel in Baja... so I do have input from a local about this stuff.

The exchange rate for dollars to pesos is posted by the business owner... and it is to his advantage to take dollars to the bank which have been more stable than the peso in past years. The longer he waited to go to the bank, the more money he had, with dollars.

I get the impression from 'many' who use pesos in Mexico that is purely to get the best deal... pay the lowest possible price... not leave anything extra.

So, please don't think I am being arrogant by using dollars... I am trying to give just a little more for the good time I have in Baja, that's all.

David K - 4-25-2008 at 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
What's this??? The old "Do as I say, rather than do as I do" approach? :lol:

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
I pay in dollars (always accepted) just so I give an extra 10% or so when I buy products or sevices... on purpose.

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
use only pesos and ask for the Spanish menu for the 'local' prices.

No, take a deep breath... I was telling sd how she/he may get away with paying the same as a local... NOT what I do.

Please try and include my entire post when quoting me... Thank you.

longlegsinlapaz - 4-25-2008 at 08:04 AM

What specifically do you feel was taken out of context or distorted in how I chose to do the quotes? :?:

I don't feel it was distorted at all since I only quoted the points I was commenting on. Not meant to distort at all, just to save everyone from having to read through the entire post a second time & save server space!! :bounce:

David K - 4-25-2008 at 08:07 AM

Well, this is what you posted: Quote:
Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
What's this??? The old "Do as I say, rather than do as I do" approach?

It WASN'T what I do...

(sd didn't like paying a higher 'tourist' price... I don't mind since I am a tourist... I was responding to sd)

longlegsinlapaz - 4-25-2008 at 08:17 AM

David, if you don't see any "Do as I say, not as I do" logic in telling everyone that you only pay in USD & overpay intentionally...but they should only pay in pesos to avoid "gringo pricing", then far be it for me to second guess you! :lol:

David K - 4-25-2008 at 08:26 AM

I wasn't telling everyone what they should do... Everyone should do what they want!

The advice was for sd only... not everybody... as she/he complained about the prices, yet he/she seems to be a tourist on vacation, from other posts.

So, in no way was I trying to preach to you U.S. people who live in Mexico now... no way, I am not qualified as I don't live there.

What I post is about my experiences in Baja, which span 43 years...

Now, let it go... have a nice day... you are in La Paz, afterall! PEACE!

wsdunc - 4-25-2008 at 08:30 AM

This is definitely a world wide phenomena, when I travel in Bolivia with my wife I have to walk behind her and her family when doing any shopping, if I am even seen SHE will get the gringo price. We laugh about it. This being said we regularly get the gringo price anyway. What do we do? If its outrageous we walk away. If it's a slight increase and we think whatever we're buying is worth it we buy it. I have found that if we frequent an establishment (restaurant, market etc) once we become known as kind of a regular the prices are pretty close to local prices.
For major items (appliance, construction materials etc) we shop around some. There is normally an entrepeneur willing to offer you a fair price just to close the deal.

By the way, whatever happened to the question about whether it was proper in the Nomad forum to post pictures from trips other than to Baja? I remember the poll but didn't see a decision.

wilderone - 4-25-2008 at 08:39 AM

It happens everywhere - Disneyland's "California resident" price; Hawaii's "kamaaina" rates on air travel, hotel, dinners; the SD Zoo's "resident" pass; Lake Tahoe's "local's" skiing prices; "senior" rates everywhere, etc.
It's "OK" in the sense that it's legal I suppose, although seems discriminatory.

Iflyfish - 4-25-2008 at 08:40 AM

Oso,

I appreciate your post. Having vented on the subject now, and having given it some thought, I think that what you are presenting is how it is!
I appreciate your perspective. We all have self interest and it is our responsibility to provide for that self interest. Some of this runs counter to my own value system. It is difficult when one’s own value system runs crossways to the majority.

I imagine that those who oppose the right of woman to choose how to deal with becoming pregnant run into a similar dilemma, they think that the choice of abortion is murder, while a woman terminating a pregnancy is doing something that, though difficult, and not wanted, is doing something that fits into her own moral framework and the moral framework of most who believe this is the right of the mother.

Great discussion, I am learning a lot, I love this dialogue and appreciate the different perspectives. Viva Nomads!

I can see that I have a rather rigid, value laden place in me about this issue. I can see how I get hooked by what is the norm. If it is the norm, then my gyroscope is out of whack. When in Rome and buyer beware are the operating principals.

I turned this into a moral issue, my bad. It is just human nature to get the best deal that one can and to "soak the rich". I just don't like being "the rich".

In the 70s I felt like I had a big target on my chest that read: White, Male, Middle Class, Chauvinistic Pig and the cause of it all! Got called a chauvinist pig for holding a door open for a woman in the 70s, and more. I need to add "rich" to the white, male, chauvinistic pig and understand that is how on some levels I am viewed. Not a bad thing really. Like being called Wayo (sorry for the spelling), or Gordo, not personal really, just how people greet one another using the most obvious feature. I used to hear myself referred to a Gringo in Mexico, as in "EH Gringo", "Want some xxxxx?", seems that the term is no longer used, at least to ones face.

In every state in the Union I have been exposed to a different price structure for local for things like fishing licenses and this does not bother me. It is up front and direct. It is the hidden and in my view duplicities of how this is handled that bothers me the most. I really don't like double standards.

I now see that this system of mordida is really just a way to extract as much from the "outsider" as possible. Nothing more and nothing less, not personal, no need for pique.

I am reminded of our lengthy discussion of cultural differences and how some differences really rankle. This is one of those issues for me. My challenge is not to take it personally and to learn how to better play the game.

I suppose that in Mexico I will always find my jaw tightening when I see that the ground wire is not connected when houses, offices, public buildings are built in Mexico. This is particularly rankling for me having lost some $20,000 in electrical equipment that was fried in a major resort complex on Mainland Mexico because the ground wire was left dangling above the ground post to which it was supposed to be connected. It was deemed to be "An act of god". I think attributing to the electrician such a noble title is a bit over the top, but who am I to argue such things.

I appreciate the dialogue on this issue and hope I have not offended with my rants.

Thanks sd for starting this thread.

Iflyfish

Natalie Ann - 4-25-2008 at 09:03 AM

Longlegs... pig wrestling... get out while you can! :lol:

Nena

wilderone - 4-25-2008 at 09:04 AM

In El Fuerte, there's a guy who has a rowboat for the "ferry" across the Rio El Fuerte. I used his ferry 3 or 4 times while I was in El Fuerte a couple nights. He charged me 25 cents, which I thought was a cheap price. I found out later that the cost of the ferry is 10 cents.

When I was in Yucatan, I took a sightseeing ride down the Rio Hondo. I asked "how much" - he said $5. Later, he picked up some passengers to take them across the river into Belize. He asked me if I wanted to see the channel that is an illegal crossing into Belize. I said sure. He dropped them off, and they paid with a coin - likely a fraction of what I paid.

In short, it's a fact of life - especially for the traveler, who is instantly recognized as someone who is just passing through and so easily duped.

Turista Pricing

MrBillM - 4-25-2008 at 09:24 AM

While the practice has been going on in Mexico on a regular basis for many, many years, I have seen the same thing in Smalltown USA, but usually related to specific events when the tourists come to town in big numbers.

In my younger days, I worked in Salinas for a short time and there was a Hofbrau restaurant with fantastic Prime Rib that we would lunch at often. Going in there once during "Big Week" when the California Rodeo was the big tourist attraction, I found the prices virutally Doubled. When I asked, the answer was "Hey, this is one week out of the year when we can make a killing. Everything will be back to normal next week". Unlike the Mexicans, they were universal in their gouging. No discount for the locals. I found it was the same all over town.

When I first moved to Yucca Valley, the restaurants and small stores would do the same thing on their "Grubstake Days" weekend. A once-yearly chance to score.

[Edited on 4-25-2008 by MrBillM]

longlegsinlapaz - 4-25-2008 at 09:48 AM

Quote:

However, when you moved to Mexico to try and live like a local on what they spend... maybe a non-tourist area would have been better than La Paz? As long as you look like a gringo (tourist, foreignor, etc.), you will be treated as such by those who don't know you.

David, last I checked, MY income; low as it is by typical gringo standards; far exceeds the typical local monthly income! As to my logic for picking La Paz as my home, it was a well-thought out decision on my part for my own personal reasons...just as I assume your decisions to go the places that you go are personal decisions based on your own unique criteria. Please give me some credit for having made a well-researched decision which was right for MY lifestyle & MY personal circumstances rather than moving to an off-the-beaten-track sleepy little fishing village. And I actually live about 10 miles outside of La Paz, lest you're thinking I'm in the hustle & bustle of downtown!

Quote:

Dollars ARE the second currency in Baja... at least in the northern state... I see locals using dollars all the time in markets to buy food, etc. If I ever got a hint that it was disrespectful to use dollars instead of being benefitial to them, I would use only pesos. A friend of mine owns a Pemex station and a motel in Baja... so I do have input from a local about this stuff.

Where on earth did I say or even imply it's "disrespectful" to use USD rather than pesos? :?:

Yeah, I know Antonio, too! My point is that local individuals & business owners do usually benefit from the exchange rate, and for gringos to minimize possible differences in price schedules, they should pay in pesos.

Quote:

I get the impression from 'many' who use pesos in Mexico that is purely to get the best deal... pay the lowest possible price... not leave anything extra.

David, there you go again generalizing from a tourist mentality!! Can you stop...go ahead & take a deep breath, yourself :lol:

...and try to view things from a permanent full-time resident perspective? I (and all the gringos I know) use pesos because they are the local currency. I totally resent your implication our reasoning is to "pay the lowest possible price... not leave anything extra"! (the 'many' being in quotes didn't soften my reaction at all!) :no:

I pay in pesos because pesos are the local currency & prices are posted in pesos, and I'm a local resident! And if you missed it in my original post, I said I DO pay tips based on service received. I give tips in appropriate circumstances, I don't tip contractors who quoted a job, unless an individual did an extraordinary job or went out of his way to accomplish that job. I tip at restaurants, gas stations & the unpaid baggers at the grocery store. I tip based on service received, not as a bribe to receive good service!

Quote:

So, please don't think I am being arrogant by using dollars... I am trying to give just a little more for the good time I have in Baja, that's all.

You obviously feel that you're doing a good deed. Please try to understand it from a different perspective...IMO, what you are doing (IF you always pay in USD & overpay everyone & everything, as you claim) is two-fold. Yes, you are personally helping a few individuals on occasion who receive sub-standard pay. But I think you are also doing more harm by perpetuating the "all gringos are rich" mentality; you're teaching that it's okay to EXPECT gringos to pay more solely based on them being gringo! You're sending a message that it's okay to gouge gringos, which unfortunately drives prices up for the under-paid local population, who don't get cost-of-living-raises! You're encouraging business owners to set tourist-targeted pricing & the truly poor Mexicans who barely survive on sub-standard pay don't get a pay raise to go along with that business-owner's increased profit margin!

Please think about this from a different perspective than your own.

bajalera - 4-25-2008 at 11:53 AM

Has the spirit of JR returned and found a spokesperson in longlegs?

Gadget - 4-25-2008 at 12:05 PM

Dear Longlegs,

By the way I love your handle, bet there's a story behind that.

I agree with most of what you say and respect your knowledge of living the viva loca in Mex.

I would like you to know that I am one of probably many who envy your situation, living full time in Baja on $1,000 per month. I would like to try that, and think I could. Personally, I think you are a little defensive of what I see as a true blessing and great fortune. Just my perspective though :biggrin:

To the thread,

This has been a great topic and discussion from lots of perspectives. It is also great to have intelligent and thoughtful newbies join the board and pose such questions. Thanks sd

As a matter of habit along with my previous post I try to connect with Baja and its people on a personal level. I guess, even though I'm tall, lanky and blond (a good percentage grey now) and definitely not a local, I speak the language pretty good, eat at local eateries as much as possible and try to show that I am more than just a tourist. I truely try to be set apart from that mind set on a personal level and want the locals to feel that way about me also. I have experienced many great acts of friendship and kindness in my 35 years of traveling in Mexico, hopefully because of this.

I do not expect anything in the way of deals when I am not in a big tourist area. I want a local to give me a fair price because he or she thinks I am not just a tourist, but a traveler who is truely interested in them and their country. I pay the marked or asked price and don't haggle, with that mind set. If I get clipped, or think I have, I leave with a pleasant and grateful attitude in the hopes they will remember me the next time and perhaps be more fair with me. If they aren't the next time then they don't see my business anymore. Be it said though, that I have some wonderful friends along the peninsula who do remember me even having not seen me in years.

If I do find myself for whatever reason in an up priced tourist area, then it is by my choice and I pay the prices. In general I avoid those types of areas except while driving through or of necessity. It seems like if I look back when I have haggled for something, that I never really felt that good about it afterwards. It was more from the point of, I thought I could than that I needed to.

Now getting pulled over for a shake down, don't get me started there. Thats a whole different ball game and its on big time hagglefest!!!!

[Edited on 4-25-2008 by Gadget]

Cypress - 4-25-2008 at 12:20 PM

Isn't the peso the basic unit of currency in Mexico?

Why wouldn't a person use pesos to pay their bills when in Mexico?

Skipjack Joe - 4-25-2008 at 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
I turned this into a moral issue, my bad. It is just human nature to get the best deal that one can and to "soak the rich".
Iflyfish

Flyman,

Stick with your initial instincts. It IS a moral issue. Right and wrong is simple and straightforward in life. And it's not a cultural phenomena. It's innate and your sense of being knows it without much thinking.

Nothing posted on this forum has shown otherwise. Having it also occur in the us.... Having prices discretely hidden from customers..... Being accused of being a cheapskate..... None of this changes the injustice of charging people different rates for the same service.

When you start to accept this outlook you inevitably become like them. It becomes a game of dishonesty, where you try to outfox and outmaneuver one another. Not a good way to go through life.

Having said that I actually do fine abroad and love to travel. I find all of these shenanigans amusing. But they're not my values.

shari - 4-25-2008 at 12:42 PM

Interesting how many people THINK that bartering is the way here...what I find fascinating is that the local people here rarely question a price or haggle...Juan would NEVER do that and is always really embarrased if I do it...even in a segunda. I have seen tourists at a store try to haggle which is ridiculous and embarrasing. I have even had tourists stay with us and when I tell them how much they owe for camping for example...$25, I had a candian say..."I'll give ya $20"!!! NOt cool at all. NOw, when someone pays me in dollars I am happy yes...but I accept pesos at 10-1...so I lose out...but ya know it all works out in the end so I don't sweat the small stuff. The prices for meals for gringos doesn't vary but a couple of bucks so no big deal either. My experience is that many gringos who complain about being shortchanged or ripped off ..often weren't...but they just didn't understand what was happening or the price to begin with..or how the money works etc. Also not true about "looking" gringo...I look gringa but speak fluent spanish and that immediately makes a huge difference and so they treat me as a local (which I am)...the other day the hair stylist didn't charge me the $5 for a haircut as I sent a few people to her restaurant...cool...but I gave her kids some money on the way out to buy sodas.

DENNIS - 4-25-2008 at 12:47 PM

So, as some here say, it's OK for a merchant to have variable pricing based on personal reasons. "Support the locals. Bleed the tourist, the guest. We make money no matter which price we charge but, the occasional shopper just passing through will have to pay more." Very nice.
Let's take it to another level. Let's take it to downtown Atlanta at the Redneck Diner. The owner, who spends his weekends covered with a white sheet, has two menus. One for Whites and one for Blacks. He does this for personal reasons. He does it because he wants Blacks to pay more than his White buddys. Is he within his rights to do this or would this be called discrimination?
Sounds like discrimination to me because it is, so, why would it be abhorred in Atlanta and, at once, an honored practice in La Paz? Values shouldn't change at the border but, I think they have for some.

woody with a view - 4-25-2008 at 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
So, as some here say, it's OK for a merchant to have variable pricing based on personal reasons. "Support the locals. Bleed the tourist, the guest. We make money no matter which price we charge but, the occasional shopper just passing through will have to pay more." Very nice.
Let's take it to another level. Let's take it to downtown Atlanta at the Redneck Diner. The owner, who spends his weekends covered with a white sheet, has two menus. One for Whites and one for Blacks. He does this for personal reasons. He does it because he wants Blacks to pay more than his White buddys. Is he within his rights to do this or would this be called discrimination?
Sounds like discrimination to me because it is, so, why would it be abhorred in Atlanta and, at once, an honored practice in La Paz? Values shouldn't change at the border but, I think they have for some.

if you can't stand the heat, stay outta Baja!

DENNIS - 4-25-2008 at 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob

if you can't stand the heat, stay outta Baja!

Can't do that. I live here.
I'm not trying to change anything but, I don't have to accept the practice as morally correct just because "that's the way it is."

bajalera - 4-25-2008 at 01:19 PM

Who would have thought such a simple topic could bring on so much serious discussion--I'm having second thoughts about ever going shopping again.

DENNIS - 4-25-2008 at 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalera
Who would have thought such a simple topic could bring on so much serious discussion--I'm having second thoughts about ever going shopping again.

It's not called shopping anymore. It's an auction.

DianaT - 4-25-2008 at 03:37 PM

Longlegs, you are so correct in things being different for occasional tourists than residents.

And DK, amazing, simply amaxing that YOU would accuse someone else of whining----just amazing. :rolleyes:

I do think it is a shame that some people encourage others here to charge more, to charge a gringo price---just don't understand that one at all. I agree that there is a moral issue in that.

Now, a little clarification of what we posted looooong ago. We really believe it is ALL situational. Examples:

Fancier restaurant in tourist area with two differently priced menus, no way unless we get the Spanish menu. In fact in any place where it is standard to charge a gringo price vs a Mexican price is not where we want to be. We would feel the same way about places in the US who charged any foreigners more.

Small restaurant in a town like ours---very different situation. Our favorite restaurant here, Tres. Hermanos has NO menus, no posted prices, and we know that sometimes we are not charged the same---we think, but don't ask me the price of a taco there, I don't know. No posted prices. We are not sure all of the family agree as to the prices, but it is all VERY good and very fairly priced.

And when we take people to that restaurant, we are apt to sit there a very long time and tip very well. Now, that same restaurant is partially feeding some workers who are in town building the new hotel. When they are there, a tab is being kept---not sure who is paying for it, but we very much expect they are getting a bulk rate----that is to be expected, IMHO

And if they feed any other local worker for less, we have no problem with that. If they hand out food to a needy person for free, great, but the idea that it is somehow moral to charge someone more just because they are a gringo---well, I liked Dennis' analogy.

Local llantera charged us the same 30 pesos they charged the other person there---that we expect---we also tip.

Walked into Second Hand Store in Guerrero Negro and were quoted about four times over the growing rate for a chest of drawers ---- we left and will not go back to that store.

Bargain? Yes, we bargain with segundas in Vizcaino and Guerrero Negro when we are buying a number of items---don't see anything wrong with that. We do the same thing in the states. We simply ask for the price if we buy several items. And yes, we are still probably paying more than a local, but as we said before---fair for everyone. In Bahia Asuncion, if we feel a traveling segunda is quoting us a really high gringo price, we just walk away----that has only happened a couple of times.

Prices at the stores in Vizcaino are set. But there is one large hardware store where we will no longer shop---they are quite rude and while we wait in line, they are apt to ignore us and wait on locals. However, Juan told us that they treat him and everyone else who is not from Vizcaino that way----so it is not a gringo thing. But, in fear of "whining" if we are treated rudely, we don't go back.

Bottom line, IMHO, to think that one should always pay more just because they are gringos has a very condescending attitude behind it and to encourage it is a moral issue.

Diane

[Edited on 4-25-2008 by jdtrotter]

Iflyfish - 4-25-2008 at 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
I turned this into a moral issue, my bad. It is just human nature to get the best deal that one can and to "soak the rich".
Iflyfish

I too enjoy travel and have done so in Mexico for over forty years. I make friends everywhere I go, I genuinely like most people, and make friends most places I go. I always try to leave a place with good feelings on both my part and the part of those I interact with. It is my intention to live my life in as conscious and positive way as possible. I sleep well at night not having to carry the Karma of screwing someone else.

I would hate to have to carry the constant burden of trying to decide and negotiate each transaction based upon idiosyncratic criteria, i.e. I will charge this person less because their child was just sick, is this a rich or poor norte? etc. That would be mind numbing to me. I am just too lazy for all of that. I also think that there are so many posibilities in such a system for bad feelings that I would not do that as a self protective measure. I have done business with many Mexicans who do not operate with double prices etc. I now believe that these folks are a minority.

I suspect however that a sort of situational ethic is what underlies fmost of the Mexican economy and way of doing business. There is plenty of reason for a sense of victim entitlement given US and Mexican history. I have not changed my own moral values about that, I just believe that jt is right in that if one lives or travels for any length of time in Mexico that one must accept the reality of these situational ethics. Then one is left with how to engage with it. Because my gyrescope is set differently than others around me does not mean my gyro is wrong, just not calibrated in the same way. I need to accept the reality of what is, to fight that is to live in a posture of fighting, and that is how I think I would become like those whose behavior I do not like. I appreciate your caution and found myself becoming even more rigid as I thought and felt thru this issue. I could easily become the rigid, negotiate for everything, pinch the buffalo off the nickle kind of guy and become over focused upon this issue and adapt the screw them before they screw me attitude. That is easy to do and I can see how some become cynical and reactive in response to this sort of system.

Toward that end I would not charge someone else a different price because they are of a different social, racial or economic class. I would rather give something away than to engage in some sort of situational assessmant of their ability to pay. I am of course not talking about something that I put on Craig's list for sale, If I say the price is non negotiable, I will not change it. It then becomes a matter of principal. If I list something and don't say I am non negotiable then I expect that most people will offer me a different price.

Bargaining is different in my mind than charging one person something and another something else based upon their membersip in a class, race, sexual orientation, economic circumstance etc. My morality tells me that that is wrong. I have not changed that perspective. I also think that ultimately that is not good business pratice. I don't think we can draw a line with out it reflecting our character.

I have not given up my values. I think it is wrong to charge one person one thing and another different price. I think that discrimination on any level is imoral, wrong and self defeating. I think that the sort of duplicity discussed here is immoral. I have seen some practice it and not others. It is a choice.

I wish to clarify my statement, I appreciate your picking up on it. "I turned this into a moral issue, my bad. It is just human nature to get the best deal that one can and to "soak the rich".

By assuming this posture, it allows me to move through this situation with out getting stuck in good/bad, moral/immoral. If I stick myself in this posture I have created a win/lose situation that tars the "other" with feathers of immorality and changes the focus of the transaction. I need to understand the "lay of the land" so that I can best negotiate it with ease and hopefully some grace. If I make ohers bad, that makes this much harder.

This is why I must accept, not in the sense of condoning it, but in the sense of accepting that this is the way it is, and then progress from there. By reminding myself that greed is a part of human nature, and that I am human, then I cannot divorce myself from some one who is operating out of a different value system. I just need to be clear about what is really happening and adjust accordingly. I do not want to be ripped off and don't want to rip anyone else off. If I am walking around concerned about being ripped off then I either need to walk somewhere else oar change my way of dealing with things so that I know I am taking good care of myself. I do not have to give up my morality, just my posture. Like Marianne Williams says in her book on A Course of Miracles says: "If you want to see a miracle, change your mind" I think there is truth in that. I think jdtrotter is expressing it better than I am. But, then what's new?

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 4-25-2008 at 04:47 PM

Skipjack, finding a place where you take good care of yourself, see the game clearly and smile at it indicates an evolution and resolution of this issue. You are not walking around with one of these :mad:

going on in your head and that :mad:

is where I get if I catch myself in moralizing about these things :spingrin:

that is part of what I am taking from this great dialogue.

Iflyfish

US Morality RULES the World. Think again.

Lee - 4-25-2008 at 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
It IS a moral issue. Right and wrong is simple and straightforward in life. And it's not a cultural phenomena. It's innate and your sense of being knows it without much thinking.

Profit motive is immoral? Vendors in MX (poor) raising prices for Gringoes (rich) is wrong? Let me see if I have this right: American's are in Mexico judging Mexicans by their (US) morality. Have you talked with the Mexicans about this.

This is looking like WHITE PEOPLE whinning about their disposable income and how it was in the old days.

Oh, you mean you and the rest of the world are in agreement with behavioral moral conformity -- and those breaking the rules are bad.

This is a ''non-issue'' for 3rd World developing countries. Ask around.

Right and wrong IS black and white in the US. It's NOT that way in the rest of the world.

oxxo - 4-25-2008 at 06:44 PM

Anoither interesting topic! I think that people from opposite ends of the spectrum make valid points. I find myself somewhere in the middle. I love my "professional" discount I get in California because of some unique credentials I hold. However, as a full time resident of Los Cabos, I don't find myself particularly abused, anymore than the average Mexican.

This is exactly the kind of thoughtful discussion that is needed on Nomads, especially if everyone keeps it civil.

woody with a view - 4-25-2008 at 07:00 PM

Quote:

Walked into Second Hand Store in Guerrero Negro and were quoted about four times over the growing rate for a chest of drawers ---- we left and will not go back to that store.

same as it ever was.....the chicks in L.A. wouldn't blink at these prices.... :dudette:

Huh?

The Gull - 4-25-2008 at 07:07 PM

What is the growing rate for a chest of drawers in a second hand store in GN?

I would call that a real stumper of a question.

What would be the growing rate for a rear lens on a 94 Honda in a Baja Yonke yard?

sd - 4-25-2008 at 08:58 PM

Thanks for all the comments!!

I have lived in a Southern California resort town for several years. We all appreciate every tourist. Without the tourists, many places would not stay open.

I am happy to report that tourists are charged the same prices as locals. Seasonal conditions change prices that are charged in some cases, but the changes apply to eveyone.

Great for our economy, guests have a nice time and most come back for more visits.

Treat everyone the way you would like to be treated.

bajaguy - 4-25-2008 at 08:59 PM

So, is a senior citizen discount OK???

Hook - 4-25-2008 at 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy
So, is a senior citizen discount OK???

Technically, no. But no one challenges it in courts because:

1-the image of old people eating dog food on fixed incomes looms

2-everyone hopes to get that discount when the reach that age

Ironically, the richest segment of the population (by age) in the US are people 60 and over.........the ones who least need the discount. :?:

bajaguy - 4-25-2008 at 09:15 PM

.........the ones who least need the discount.

So sez you

TonyC - 4-25-2008 at 11:36 PM

I wanted some drywall work done in Baja Norte. The price told to me for the work seemed way to high, and I said so. The guy's reply was that if I went to San Diego that's what I would pay. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I wanted to ask him, when he's in San Diego does he pay Mexico prices.... like for gas? I left it alone. I had the work done by someone else.

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