BajaNomad

Litter

Leanna - 4-19-2004 at 09:35 AM

After spending a wonderful week in La Paz, and picking up lots of trash on the beaches, wherever we went, a subject of discussion during our stay was the litter problem. I'm sure everyone here has encountered and pondered it, in all parts of mexico. My feeling is education about litter and what it does to our environment is key...maybe if children in school are taught about it, (are they?) it would transcend...meaning it has to start somewhere...would really like to hear your thoughts, ideas, etc on this subject, as I feel it is an important one...

The Answer is Education

Mike Humfreville - 4-19-2004 at 10:41 AM

I'm a 60-year-old living in California. When I was young the federal government sponsored a campaign to educate Americans regarding litter. Billboards, radio and TV ads demanded that we pay attention and not throw trash wherever we wanted. Since that time we have been more aware and take more care to properly dispose of our castoffs.

In Baja, this has not yet happened in many places. I believe the reason in some situations is just that there are so few people living in select locations that there was previously no reason to raise the issue. Every remote ranch and village has their baranca over the closest hill where they hauled their trash. The winds of the desert carried the trash at will and the landscape was cluttered. In 1969 I pulled of the dirt highway and drove through a mile of open dump as I entered Guerrero Negro. What a pit that was. But...

On a series of explorations I took last year on the back roads east of Ensenada and as far south as Santo Tomas, large anti-litter signs were posted on almost every back road I took. And there was no litter. Since there are (to my limited knowledge) no high profile anti-litter campaigns running in Baja, I assumed the locals in these small, remote ranchos were tired of looking at trash and took it on their own to clean things up.

These remote folks didn?t have to wait to be ?programmed? into a specific mode of behavior, they just took it upon themselves to improve their lives. Way to go.

BajaNomad - 4-19-2004 at 11:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Humfreville
...the federal government sponsored a campaign to educate Americans regarding litter. Billboards, radio and TV ads demanded that we pay attention and not throw trash wherever we wanted....
http://www.adcouncil.org/campaigns/historic_campaigns_pollut...

Litter

jrbaja - 4-19-2004 at 01:27 PM

This has been discussed before so if you look at some of the old posts, there were many conversations regarding such.
I travel Baja continuosly in all parts and litter is something I deal with regularly. I am working on many projects down here and educating the locals to the advantages of a clean environment is one of them. I have actually seen a major impact occur from my working with these people and setting an example myself by picking up all trash encountered on all trails or beaches.
The Mexican people are aware of tourism dollars and because of their desire for tourism, I used this as an excuse for why the trash should be cleaned up. And when I went back it was.
And, because their kids are receiving excellent educations in the schools, they are teaching their parents about a clean environment.
I think this is awesome and expect Baja to be cleaned a lot faster than anyone on this board thinks.
I also have a project going regarding graffitti removal in all areas if you are interested.
Good work on the cleanup. The least we can do is to set a good example. And the more people that see you picking up the trash, the more people that will realize how much better it looks without it.

bajalou - 4-19-2004 at 03:40 PM

In the San Felipe area there are also signs and billboards regarding clean up and no dumping of trash etc. the municipal emplyees were also cleaning up some areas of the dumped litter etc not long ago. Maybe the state of BC is putting forth a effort in this direction.:biggrin:

David K - 4-19-2004 at 04:46 PM

Yes, it is education and learning to respect the land. "Give Hoot Don't Pollute" and the Indian with a tear rolling down his cheak were two commercials I remember from near 1970... We had trash along our highways a lot in the 1960's (and earlier I am sure).

Mexico is just 30 years behind in this department.

I believe I commented last year, on the scene at about Mile 80 in the last Baja 500, when all the 'local' spectators just threw their trash (mostly beer containers) all over the beautiful countryside along the race course where I was camping.

[Edited on 4-19-2004 by David K]

Litter!

meme - 4-19-2004 at 06:27 PM

Eldorado's workers wre out cleaning the roadsides today as we drove to town. but ofcourse that's ONLY in Eldorado!:(

Leanna - 4-21-2004 at 09:10 AM

JR, I think the work you are doing is pretty cool, and I thank you for it....

I remember well the ad campaigns from the 70's, specially the one with the indian with the tear in his eye! It touched me, at the risk of sounding cheesy!

I also remember well my "ecology" classes in school....does anyone know if the mexican kids have anything like this in their curriculum? I think that would be an important thing to teach????

I hope you guys are right and that baja is about 30 years behind us in the litter campaign..so that would mean we should start seeing major improvements right about now..........????

schools

aldosalato - 4-21-2004 at 07:59 PM

In La Paz schools I see a lot of interest and teaching about ecology and litter
Obviously it will take another 20 years but it will come.
Even the municipality after last year dengue epidemic has started a campaign to clean up empty lots and it put controls to garbage exiting town on private trucks going toward the dump.

elgatoloco - 4-21-2004 at 09:13 PM

A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.

Confucious say.
:saint:

Education....

Debra - 4-21-2004 at 09:44 PM

This is a touchy subjet.....

For those that are open to learing it maybe okay.....for others when you bring up just how long it might take for their trash to decompose you might get your butt chewed for bringing it up..as once when I bought up that it takes 12 yrs. for a cigrette butt to decompose (I'm a smoker, and never leave my butts even in the desert) Earth is first! "Leave only footsteps, take only pictures"

Dave - 4-21-2004 at 10:00 PM

BS...This isn't a touchy subject. You see a Mexican, American or anyone littering you don't clean up after them, you tell them to pick it up! I guarantee they wouldn't trash their parent's homes. Manners are manners. This has nothing to do with cultural differences.

Yeah Dave...

Debra - 4-21-2004 at 10:28 PM

I understand what you are saying, "In a perfect world" Yeah, I would just say "clean up your trash" But, don't think that really works as well as we would hope. Again, I remind.... I got my butt chewed by reminding someone to just not leave the cig. butts.

With a Special Friend...

Mike Humfreville - 4-21-2004 at 10:56 PM

on a trip to a favored place down south I listened to words from the back seat about how long it takes for a cigarette filter to decompose. Over the weeks we spent together, with warmth and compasion I was told by my friend that the decomposition took 12 years.

Then we ended up at a small beach. My friend smoked, a brand that had a unique emblem on it's filter.

We joind with other friends nightly around our campfire. I watched my friend stub her butts out into the sand nightly.

On confrontation one day late in our trip, and based on the unique brand of smokes she smoked that I found stubbed into the sand every morning, she denied what I had been watching nightly. She denied her acts that I had watched.

One day, much later, she sent me a nasty letter. She asked why I had been so mean and nasty.

Go figure.

As friends, we are responsible to reflect what we actually appear to be to each other. If we simply reflect the image we want to appear to be, what value do we have?

David K - 4-22-2004 at 07:23 AM

Is it possible you missed seeing your friend pick up the butts after you went to sleep or before you all left the camp?

I hate smoking, but I understand it is an addiction to some, as is drinking too much alcohol.

Perhaps the smoker and drinker should not let their butts get in the way of their friendship??? :)

good one DK

trblmkr - 4-22-2004 at 09:37 AM

I had a special friend spend an extendended period of time at my place one summer. She made an effort to pick every single one of those stinky butts up, if not right away, definately the very next day.

On the butts

jrbaja - 4-28-2004 at 01:07 PM

I as well am a smoker and I carry my butts to a receptacle but this is about trash.
Trash is a huge corporation painting their logo and directions to the next pit stop in the middle of the Carretera heading south. This takes a lot of nerve and disrespect from some gringo idiots as usual.
Any comments on this one you patriotic litter ?

Since this popped back up on "todays posts"......

Tucker - 4-28-2004 at 04:10 PM

I'll record my observations of the last week or so; Last Friday and Saturday a crew of seven people were picking up roadside trash between Chametla and El Centenario (and beyond), also earlier this week I (first time ever) observed a real live, but broken down street sweeper (full size) on Las Garzas obviously trying to accomplish something. The desire seems to be there.

ASH Reciever

Mexray - 4-28-2004 at 08:13 PM

Back a zillion years or so, when I was in the 'Air Navy', our old creaking' SP2E Neptune Sub 'Hunters' carried as standard equipment back in the radio compartment, the 'ASH Reciever'....It was an old beer can that we stuffed cigarette butts into when finished! We then tossed the ASH Receiver into the trash can when we got back on the ground...worked great!

BTW...in those days (60's) all the box lunches we got before leaving on a mission had 5-packs of Winston's included as standard equipment! Another govt. subsidy for the tobacco industry, I suppose!

Mike Humfreville - 4-28-2004 at 08:57 PM

In Marine Boot we were taught to smoke: if you didn't you had to hold the tin can ashtrays for the rest of the troops. That's what got me goin' I guess - 3 pax a day for 20 years. We also learned to "field-strip" the cig butts by tearing the paper and shaking the tobacco into the dust. In those days most smoked non-filtered cigs.

elgatoloco - 4-29-2004 at 08:13 AM

La Bufadora

This place use to be a BIG mess with lots of trash all over the place.
The cruise ship passengers were appalled, the cruise ship companies said clean up or were not coming. They cleaned it up. $$$$ talks. :saint:

Bob H - 4-30-2004 at 11:06 AM

On our recent Mulege trip my wife and I noticed a big difference in the amount of litter - a lot less of it. Either the hurricane blew everything into the vados and then washed away, or the locals are taking notice and cleaning things up. We were also amazed that the very first day after Easter Sunday we checked out a few beaches along Bahia Concepcion and found them to be pretty clean (after Semana Santa!).
Bob H

The clean up

jrbaja - 5-3-2004 at 07:33 AM

will jhappen much faster than in the U.S. as there are fewer people and they seem to learn a lot faster.
The trash truck Tucker was referring to is back in action in La Paz, there are road crews between La Paz and Los Barriles keeping the highway clean ad I have seen a number of them farther north.
These are not the criminals and law breakers that you see along the highways in the u.s. but people that are actually intrerested in being there and doing some good.
The education some are trying to provide these people is definately working and in spite of the bad example set by a certain corporation, Baja continues to be cleansed by the people that care.
And thanks to those that are contributing by setting a good example themselves.

Leanna - 5-3-2004 at 08:34 AM

I've learned lots of good info from this thread (including the smoking thing!:no:), and glad to hear that progress is happening!

Me No - 5-3-2004 at 02:22 PM

In my opinion most cig smokers don't regard discarding their own butts anywhere they please as littering. Mike H made it clear Debra, inspite of what she says, is in that number.

Environmental concerns are now being taught in school in Mexico. Hopefully, the children will be able to pass along this bit of wisdom to their parents. I think it has long been considered a right of the Mexican people to discard trash wherever and whenever they see fit. They just didn't see a need to spend money for gas to "haul things over the hill". Things may be starting to change, as I have seen crews picking up trash along side of the road. There even appeared to be prisoners, of some sort, picking up trash in one place. I try to lead by example and not worry to much if someone leaves a mess in an area I have just cleaned up. I certainly would never tell a Mexican in their own country to clean something up. I do know that last weekend me ,two old folks who happened along, and 3, 5 and 6 year olds cleaned about two miles of beach. Just a few years ago this same job would have taken a whole bus load of people, as there was so much more trash.:yes:

Dave - 5-3-2004 at 05:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Me No
I think it has long been considered a right of the Mexican people to discard trash wherever and whenever they see fit.


Whaaa? Not the Mexican people I know. And just who would they think conferred this right?
Quote:
Originally posted by Me No
I certainly would never tell a Mexican in their own country to clean something up. I do know that last weekend me ,two old folks who happened along, and 3, 5 and 6 year olds cleaned about two miles of beach. Just a few years ago this same job would have taken a whole bus load of people, as there was so much more trash.:yes:


I find the idea of Americans picking up after Mexicans demeaning and condescending.....to Mexicans. It's like we think that they don't know right from wrong, they do!

Me No - 5-3-2004 at 08:02 PM

So you are denying the fact that many Mexicans discard their litter wherever they want? You got some nerve going to another county and telling those that live there what they should or shouldn't do. The fact is, there it is not considered a big deal. Even for those that do pick up after themselves. Call you and American Centric. Hmmm, let me see. Corned beef in Baja. Yep, that would do it. The cured (salted) processed meats are so often forgotten in baja.

And by the way, I have a Mexican wife and those were her words, but from what I have seen I have to agree.

Tell me honestly, have you ever been south of just north of Puerto Nuevo?:lol:

[Edited on 5-4-2004 by Me No]

Mike Humfreville - 5-3-2004 at 08:53 PM

While I mean absolutely no disrespect to the Mexicans, I agree that they have not, as a nationality, been overly concerned with litter. I'm not saying that the gringo way is right either.

But when some of us see a pristine remote beach and then the same beach covered with litter, I know where I?d go, where most of us would go, including Mexicans. No one wants to live with someone else?s trash.

But that doesn?t make either side right or wrong. It?s just different training and circumstances.

Twenty-five years back we set up camp for a few weeks at La Gringa. We were north of the green huts which were mostly vacated by that time, but still standing. We were alone for a few days and then a family from Tijuana set up camp a reasonable distance north of us on the berm. Daily, while they were there, we retrieved trash and toys from the water as the current worked south, in front of our camp. I never felt they were bad or inconsiderate, just that they had different standards based on unique social demands.

But did we enjoy picking up their trash? No.

From everything I?ve seen lately, the folks of Baja are deciding more and more on their own that trash sucks. And from my point of view, it started internally with the Mexicans. They have grown tired of trash and are taking actions to make themselves aware. Sooner or later it?ll filter down to the rest of the populace. In the mean time, as visitors or foreign residents, we can be supportive in their efforts.

I hope that is the definition of a win-win deal.

Herb - 5-3-2004 at 09:15 PM

I'm more in agreement with Me No on this one. I think part of the problem is that people are lumping all sources of litter together (there are as many reasons that pople do it as there are types of trash).

I do not doubt Dave's contention that many of the Mexicans he knows are aware that just tossing garbage here or there is "wrong" but they continue to do it because they are lazy or just don't care.

There are those in rural communities, however, who have not bought into the idea that "litter" is "wrong". They dispose of their trash the way people in those remote areas have for thousands of years . Who the heck are we as 20th century foreigners to tell them that now they must change their ways just because we said so? :lol:

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, some success can be had in changing those types of attitudes if you can demonstrate to people that there is something in it for them. (Like tourist $$)

Finally, the notion that cleaning up after anyone is condescending and demeaning is silly. If that is the case, then in the US we are condescending and demeaning to our own population. Folks assume that because we don't see litter that it doesn't happen here anymore. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Just as much litter happens on the highways here, the ONLY difference is that we have a much more sysematic and instituionalized program for removal of the garbage.

Don't believe me, visit any SoCal beach the first working day after 4th of July. Looks JUST LIKE Bahia Concepcion after Semana Santa. (If not worse) Or how about a Stadium after a sporting event or even a movie theater?

I, for one, have spent many hours picking up trash in some of my favorite California wilderness and beach areas. Sure I could just sit back and say the people who made the mess ought to clean it up, but I would then just sit and look at the filth while I wait for that to happen (not!) or I can do something about it myself. Selfish, yes! Demeaning? Hardly.

Dave - 5-3-2004 at 09:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Me No
So you are denying the fact that many Mexicans discard their litter wherever they want? You got some nerve going to another county and telling those that live there what they should or shouldn't do. The fact is, there it is not considered a big deal. Even for those that do pick up after themselves. Call you and American Centric. Hmmm, let me see. Corned beef in Baja. Yep, that would do it. The cured (salted) processed meats are so often forgotten in baja.



Having lived here for seven years, that "other country" you mention is now my adopted home. You bet I'm gonna say something, just as I would in the States.

By the way, it IS a big deal. I have witnessed the police force litterers into picking up not only their own mess but that of others as well.

I don't understand your comment about corned beef; especially since a fair amount of my customers are Nationals. Are you suggesting only Mexican fare should be served in Mexico? I guess that's why there are so few Chinese restaurants down here or even fewer Mexican restaurants in the States.:biggrin:>



And by the way, I have a Mexican wife and those were her words, but from what I have seen I have to agree.

Tell me honestly, have you ever been south of just north of Puerto Nuevo?:lol:




[Edited on 5-4-2004 by Me No]

Dave - 5-3-2004 at 10:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
Finally, the notion that cleaning up after anyone is condescending and demeaning is silly. If that is the case, then in the US we are condescending and demeaning to our own population. Folks assume that because we don't see litter that it doesn't happen here anymore. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Just as much litter happens on the highways here, the ONLY difference is that we have a much more sysematic and instituionalized program for removal of the garbage.


Herb, I think you miss my point. The fact that a Mexicano KNOWS that a Gringo will pick up his litter is what I am getting at. You don't reward bad behavior.

I have witnessed Mexicans throwing all manner of trash including dirty diapers out of car windows. Are you and others arguing that they are not aware that their behavior is wrong? Puleeese!

Bookerman - 5-3-2004 at 10:37 PM

According to Carl Franz' Peoples Guide to Mexico, this is just matter of differing philosophies concerning how to dispose of trash. Here in America, we gather all of the trash and concentrate it in central dumps where it will remain until decomposed eons from now. In Mexico, they let much of the trash lay where it falls until it decomposes eons from now. In the end, it's much the same really. Now recycling is another matter altogether.

On a somewhat related topic, I can remember when smoking was allowed in supermarkets here in the states. I remember my mother throwing the butt straight onto the floor where my brother and I would scramble to see who would be the one to stamp it out, and then we would leave it there. Those were the days.

Herb - 5-3-2004 at 11:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Herb, I think you miss my point. The fact that a Mexicano KNOWS that a Gringo will pick up his litter is what I am getting at. You don't reward bad behavior.


For a moment I thought maybe I had missed your point, but your reply makes it more clear that I did not.

"You don't reward bad behavior."

What could be more condescending and demeaning than that? It is not my place (or yours) to reward nor punish the Mexicans for what they do with their own country which was Me No's main point and I wholeheartedly agree.
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave

I have witnessed Mexicans throwing all manner of trash including dirty diapers out of car windows. Are you and others arguing that they are not aware that their behavior is wrong? Puleeese!





I also made a clear distinction between the "diaper throwers" who "know better" vs. people who have not bought into more modern methods of trash disposal.

And how many "Diaper tossers" really only toss them out of the window because they are sure that some gringo will pick them up? That is again an arrogant train of thought that places Gringos at the center of the universe and that somehow all of the Mexicans lives and actions revolve around us. I've seen just as much litter in remote parts of mainland Mexico that are almost never visited by gringos.

Me No - 5-4-2004 at 11:54 AM

This all boils down to basic chemistry. The second law of thermo dynamics to be precise. Which states, " any attempt to make order from caos, will only result in further caos". So I guess it depends on which side of the law you want to participate in, the ordering part or the caos part. In the end it is all the same result, an endless cycle.
Consider this, lets say we convince all the Mexicans that they should spend the extra time and energy to neatly bundle their discards and haul them to the dump. Extra bags are required and gas to get it there, more caos. What does the dump end up doing with the trash when it gets there. Well in the states we bury it. Burn fossil fuels to dig the hole and put it in, more caos. In Mexico the prefered way is to burn it. CFC's and a whole array of other green house gases are released into the atmosphere, more caos. Thereby adding to a global problem, of which the US is the biggest perpetrator. So I say again, who are we to tell anyone what to do with their trash. :moon::O

Dave - 5-4-2004 at 12:20 PM

Well, we could always get rid of all the people. Yeah, I vote for that.

No people=no garbage.

This message brought to you by PETA and EarthFirst.:biggrin: