BajaNomad - NEW SCAM at Santa Rosalia Migracion for FM3 renewals

NEW SCAM at Santa Rosalia Migracion for FM3 renewals

CasaManzana - 5-14-2008 at 06:00 PM

Today at the Santa Rosalia Migracion office, to renew both our FM-3's, the two regular guys were not in so the lady (who has been there forever) did it for us. She sorted all the bank stuff and tax statements out as usual and sent me to the bank as always to pay the $1,200 peso fee. Arriving back at the office after the bank run, she said to come back in a week for the renewed documents...and "you need to pay me $600 pesos now". I ask why and her answer was "for the copies". I ask her just how many copys she made in the process...she sorted through the papers and said "six but the copy machine toner is very expensive". I said I would not pay 100 pesos/copy. She then said OK "I only charge you $400 pesos". At this point I knew I had her game so I said "OK but I want a signed receipt". She said "I give no receipts, you just pay". I told her I was not going to pay anything without a receipt. For a minute it was the 'Lets All Look Down At The Floor Game', then she said "OK, you go...you pay nothing". If there is more to this when I go back to get the renewed FM-3's I will update this.
In seven years we have never had any issues there..same people/different game. :no:

CaboRon - 5-14-2008 at 07:15 PM

You did the right thing ... polite but firm ...

When I went to La Paz Immigration to register my address last October the clerk asked me for five hundred pesos ...

I calmly , but firmly told him I had paid at the San Diego Consulate already and would not be giving him any money.

He looked down shuffled my papers for a few min and then looked up and said "Oh, you don't have to pay"

Mordida only encourages more of the same.....

CaboRon

capt. mike - 5-15-2008 at 07:22 AM

she and all others like her ought to be prosecuted. :fire:

why do some people put up with this low life scum behavior?

glad you didn't fall for it.

mexico will always be a chump 3rd rate place as long as their society and govt allows this way of doing biz. :mad:

CaboRon - 5-15-2008 at 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
she and all others like her ought to be prosecuted. :fire:

I couldn't have said it better ....

CaboRon

edit: I should have added that this is NOT a new scam.

c

[Edited on 5-15-2008 by CaboRon]

vandenberg - 5-15-2008 at 08:06 AM

This lady,likely, has observed the guys she was secretary to, scam the gringos out of some extra funds (or gifts) and took this opportunity to try to get in on it. Little crudely, but a valiant try nevertheless.

Doubt that the officers ever shared any of their ill gotten gains with her, so she decided to give it a shot on her own. :biggrin:

Enterprising. :?:

Russ - 5-15-2008 at 09:11 AM

More than a few people renewing their FM-2 & 3's from here are paying the mordida and all are complaining about it. From what I hear the gal that has been a clerk for ever is now an officer. Good for her! But the mordida is really bad policy. The office receives a large portion of the renewal fees so mordida shouldn't be an issue other than greed and to screw the tourist because "they're all rich". Good on you for doing the right thing! Having inmigrado status means not having to play the games any more...... I hope!

CaboRon - 5-15-2008 at 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Russ
More than a few people renewing their FM-2 & 3's from here are paying the mordida and all are complaining about it. From what I hear the gal that has been a clerk for ever is now an officer. Good for her! But the mordida is really bad policy. The office receives a large portion of the renewal fees so mordida shouldn't be an issue other than greed and to screw the tourist because "they're all rich". Good on you for doing the right thing! Having inmigrado status means not having to play the games any more...... I hope!

Persons who pay the mordida are merely perpetuating the scam.....

Remember: Be Polite But Refuse

CaboRon

Russ - 5-15-2008 at 01:49 PM

Telling people here not to pay mordida is like telling them not to feed stray dogs.

DianaT - 5-15-2008 at 02:03 PM

Really glad to see you held firm. Wish we had done so in Guerrero Negro---

CaboRon - 5-15-2008 at 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Russ
Telling people here not to pay mordida is like telling them not to feed stray dogs.

There seems to be a problem with the analogies here.

I can see why you might feed a stray dog out of some sense of compassion.

But why would you ever want to pay mordida ???????

CaboRon

capt. mike - 5-16-2008 at 08:24 AM

i guess it's like......if you feed a stray it will always come back for more, you can't get rid of it.
same think on the mordita thing. if it continues, and people keep paying it, it never goes away.

on the BBP site the pilots are all firmly in the camp of DO NOT kow tow to mordita demands from officials at GA airports, ever. hold ground.
and it has really diminished over time. We even have examples where higher officials have fired underlings for attempting extortion against US customers at airports.

Paulina - 5-16-2008 at 08:59 AM

I think one of the main reasons people pay the mordida when they know they're being scammed is because they don't have the time, or want to waste the time it takes to wait it out.

It's a Mexican stand off.

Our last run in with the m. word took about an hour, but we didn't pay.

Part of the problem I'm struggling with is what role should I play in the game? The subservient female who politely waits it out, until the male (usually) figures a way to let me go with his machismo still intact, OR do I pull the full frontal Paulina attack and risk the stand off taking even longer?
The cop in Catavina got the Paulina treatment and it was looking like it was going to take all day. I believe we were let go because I used the bathroom and hung out in there a bit to allow the cop to find his way out with Dern while still holding on to his dignity.

I'm going to try toning it down just a tad next time to see if it makes a difference. Maybe I'll start a new baja journal, "The Mordida Memoirs" in which I list who, what, where and why I supposely needed to pay, as well as my reaction and the time it took to resolve the situation.

The journal itself might have quite the effect on cutting the time spent waiting to see who is going to step over the mordida line drawn in the sand.

P<*)))><

David K - 5-16-2008 at 09:44 AM

Sounds like a great report to make Paulina!

CaboRon - 5-16-2008 at 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Sounds like a great report to make Paulina!

Report ??? Write a book and publish !!

I'll come to the book signing .

CaboRon

Osprey - 5-16-2008 at 10:04 AM

I hear the indignation of the righteous. Mordida is part of Mexican culture. Tell me none of you has ever paid to smooth your way over a rough situation. Tell me you have not or would never pay more to gain access to a thing you would not qualify for without greasing somebody's palm. Tell me you never paid anyone, anywhere to get a product/license/service quicker, easier, better, one dollar more than the price without those benefits. Compared to Mexicans, gringos pay relatively nothing in mordida -- given that, your are not the ones perpetuating what you profess to be a deplorable practice (until you need something special or get in a jackpot in Mexico). So why would you not use the system to gain some benefit you couldn't hope for in another culture? Cmon, tell us the rest of the story or I'll sick the Skeeter on you.

Natalie Ann - 5-16-2008 at 10:44 AM

Jorge - I have never paid mordida in Mexico nor US... nor have I ever paid more than the normal amount for goods nor services. If I had to pay to get appropriate service, it would no longer be appropriate. But then I do hold myself and others to high standards.

That said, when I hire someone for a service I want/need in or for my home, and when it is done well, I always pay more than is asked. I continue to get outstanding service from the person and all those they refer me to. I feel that 'tips' for quality service is helpful to both parties.... mordida does none of us any good in the long run.

mho

Nena

fulano - 5-16-2008 at 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey Tell me none of you has ever paid to smooth your way over a rough situation. Tell me you have not or would never pay more to gain access to a thing you would not qualify for without greasing somebody's palm. Tell me you never paid anyone, anywhere to get a product/license/service quicker, easier, better, one dollar more than the price without those benefits.

I have NEVER done any of those things...and I have spent a lot of time in Mexico.

You are rationalizing your own actions.

Osprey - 5-16-2008 at 11:03 AM

Nat, you'll have us going to the dictionary now. I'll say mordida is extortion, not a tip. How about money to the maitre d? What's wrong with that, to get a better table -- not a tip, it's extortion. Maybe you will never find yourself in a Mexican business negotiation between the end you seek, a 500 dollar bill and your promise to yourself not to pay mordida. What problems have you created for yourself to make sure you have paid not one centavo more than is required for the things you buy in Mexico? You I know to be as honest as they come but do you really think all these self-righteous posters swore, at age 12, never to pay anyone, anywhere nothin, so help me God?.

Pescador - 5-16-2008 at 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fulano

I have NEVER done any of those things...and I have spent a lot of time in Mexico.

You are rationalizing your own actions.

No, what Osprey is saying is: sometimes you tip for good service before and sometimes after. :smug:

Natalie Ann - 5-16-2008 at 11:17 AM

Jorge - In my book, a "tip" is something extra and unexpected paid at the END of a job very well done. I tip the workers at my house IF they've done a great job and been kind and trustworthy. I tip the stylist who cuts my hair. After dinner I 'tip' for services and good food.

I agree with you that mordida is extortion.... and paying a maitre d for a good table is mordida by my standards. I make my reservation like the rest of the world and most always get a table by the water/view/whatever if one is open upon my arrival.

I did not say I "promised" to never pay mordida. Alone and scared and stopped by policia - perhaps, I don't know... never been that scared. Your question was who has never paid mordida... and my response is that I have not.

And honestly, I don't think I've created any problems for me by thinking mordida is wrong.

To each his/her own.

Nena

shari - 5-16-2008 at 11:45 AM

Osprey has touched on a very interesting subject. I agree with him completely...mordida is NOT translated as extortion here in mexico...it IS a way of life..neither extortion or a tip...it is widely used and generally accepted as a way of doing business...which we are accustomed to "buying into" in our daily lives for a variety of things and circumstances. I am always happy to creatively come up with alternatives so things go smoother, quicker etc. When I ran over a curb in front of the police station, I got out of a ticket with a cabrilla.
Picture this...you want to buy a lot and the fellow who measures them has 20 other lots to measure and you are only here for 2 days...a 100 pesos would get the thing done today...or you could wait for 2-3 months...what would you do????
I have gotten out of very expensive return trips by donating a little cash to a guy's beer fund to get something done when I needed it. I do not see this as extortion...but kind of a gesture of appreciation to speed up a process or job. It's a relief to know that things are possible with good old mexican "know how".

Skipjack Joe - 5-16-2008 at 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paulina
Maybe I'll start a new baja journal, "The Mordida Memoirs" in which I list who, what, where and why I supposely needed to pay, as well as my reaction and the time it took to resolve the situation.

I like it!!

Or else a website called "Mordida Watch". Much like Seawatch.com.

You get out your video camera and film the entire process. Then you publish it on the web. We could also see what you went through. The Ensenada chief of police could witness what his officers are putting you through. You could use it to defend yourself in a court of law. Although I'm sure the pad and pencil will quickly disappear as the camera comes out.

Might be very effective.

capt. mike - 5-16-2008 at 12:36 PM

BS.....$10 each for xerox copies charged as a surcharge to be pocketed but not included and identified up front as part of a fee schedule is purely slimey behavior and smacks of the "little bite".

yes i know this style of biz is indiginous to the latin way but that doesn't mean it's something you have to accept as a foreigner.

effective negotiations are done BEFORE the deal is supposedly closed. The time to argue about a bill is before the work is done.

paying "in process" is just showing gullibility or stupidity or complacency or nonchalance. I don't care if it's a hot dog, a cab ride or a casita you're buying.

Heather - 5-16-2008 at 12:43 PM

My Mexican husband is always willing to pay the mordida much quicker than I. I'm like Paulina, I usually want to explain the situation to the police officer, or argue why we did nothing wrong, but my husband is always willing to pay, and overpay. He's not a bargainer (he'll barter, but not bargain). If the cop says $400 pesos, hubby will whip it out!! Guess his respect for authority? or just growing up in the system!! saludos Heather

I better get out of here. They gave us half a day off in honor of "Day of the Teacher", so I hear the mall calling my name, have a nice warm weekend (at least here in SoCal). H.

comitan - 5-16-2008 at 12:43 PM

I agree fully with Capt. Mike, even if you come to terms before they will try to get more out of you, just think of where you would be with a person like this if you hadn't made an agreement.

toneart - 5-16-2008 at 01:10 PM

Ref: Immigration in Santa Rosalia-

I would suggest that another reason for possibly complying: They know their "clients" pretty well and remember you on the street, or when you come back in a year for renewal. How vulnerable do you feel? I mean, we are talking about Immigration Officers who hold and can exercise a lot of power over your life. I am not saying it is right, but it is definitely condoned in their culture all the way up to the top. It certainly helps subsidize the government in terms of wages paid.

Regarding Pauline's willingness to experiment with her tone and attitude, I would suggest that she would benefit, as would most, by toning it down. In my experience, getting upset and raising your voice is almost always counter-productive. You could say that in general, in any culture, but in Mexico you are really alienating whomever you are dealing with. Talk about stonewalling, they are really masters at it. Yes, it becomes a waiting game which you can often win if you keep calm and maintain a respectful attitude (even though you don't respect their position). All you have lost is time.

If your principles absolutely won't allow you to comply with the requested "mordida", then spend the time, calmly.....sometimes all day ....and you will be able to live with yourself.
:bounce:

[Edited on 5-16-2008 by toneart]

DianaT - 5-16-2008 at 01:36 PM

Living with mordida is something we learned to live with quite well in Central America. And at times for expedient reasons, like on the open highway with a federal highway cop on the Baja highway, we have lived with it with no problem.

When it really hit us was after we were told that there would be no more fees at all and then after everything was completed, bingo, the sting.

While yes, mordida is common, we sure have heard a lot of Mexicans complain about it. In fact we have heard more Mexicans complain about it over the years than we ever heard in Honduras or Guatemala.

Ni modo, it is what it is, but we have now hired an agent for our FM3---we would rather pay him.

Diane

Osprey - 5-16-2008 at 02:19 PM

Diane, according to a poll of people in the Mexico City area, the poor people pay a whopping 29% of their annual wages in mordida. Those above the poverty line pay 8% and gringos living in Mexico pay an amount that is so small it didn't make the numbers cut. I've heard gringos down here say "guy wanted $100 dollars to process this, copy that. It's not a part of the FM3 fee so I wouldn't pay it. I hired an attorney, only cost me $1,500 dollars -- I showed them." Like you, I used to try to fight the good fight but now I pay for professional processing (when it's appropriate), save a helluva lot more than just money and I get to choose who will be the recipient of the money. Working within/through the culture of a foreign country can be rewarding in many ways -- Mexicans down here just laugh at us and say "You don't know how to use the system" -- "You can make it work for you" Diane, just wait til those forthright/upright/downright individualists get in a little jackpot!

Paulina - 5-16-2008 at 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
I hear the indignation of the righteous. Mordida is part of Mexican culture. Tell me none of you has ever paid to smooth your way over a rough situation......... (until you need something special or get in a jackpot in Mexico). So why would you not use the system to gain some benefit you couldn't hope for in another culture?

Yes, mordida is a part of the culture, but I think we are talking about two different aspects of the mordida problem. Have I ever paid to smooth my way over a rough situation? Yes.

I've needed "something special" because of a sticky problem in which I helped a "friend" out of a pretty bad situation using the barter system, greasing a hand so to speak. This friend deserved the consequences of his actions and we made them a little more bareable. Mordida for the most part is undeserved. I guess you could say we "used the system" to get the desired effect. This action was of our own choice, not forced upon us.

The benefit gained was freedom, not a nice table at a restaurant, or faster service.

Mordida in the sense of the word as I understand it, is not free of my choosing, it's not a tip to make my life easier. It's a situation FORCED on people by those who hold some sort of power over them.

The police officer has the power to take away your freedom, your vehicle, your drivers license and registration, etc. It's not a choice they are offering you when they demand mordida when you haven't commited the infraction you're being "charged" for.

Mordida is extortion. It's an abuse of authority.

I don't believe that one can compare that police officer to the maitre d'. Slipping someone a few bucks to get a nicer table or to make my life easier is not what I consider mordida. To me, it's a tip for services rendered. Yes, I've paid tips by my own choosing.

Side note, I agree that tone of voice is everything. I never raise my voice or thow a hissy fit in these situations. I guess you have to know me to know what I need to tone down a bit. :saint:

P<*)))><

[Edited on 16-5-2008 by Paulina]

DianaT - 5-16-2008 at 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Diane, according to a poll of people in the Mexico City area, the poor people pay a whopping 29% of their annual wages in mordida. Those above the poverty line pay 8% and gringos living in Mexico pay an amount that is so small it didn't make the numbers cut. I've heard gringos down here say "guy wanted $100 dollars to process this, copy that. It's not a part of the FM3 fee so I wouldn't pay it. I hired an attorney, only cost me $1,500 dollars -- I showed them." Like you, I used to try to fight the good fight but now I pay for professional processing (when it's appropriate), save a helluva lot more than just money and I get to choose who will be the recipient of the money. Working within/through the culture of a foreign country can be rewarding in many ways -- Mexicans down here just laugh at us and say "You don't know how to use the system" -- "You can make it work for you" Diane, just wait til those forthright/upright/downright individualists get in a little jackpot!

The agent we have used for other things and we will be paying him less than the "bite" and he always earns his money. Besides, we really like this agent and want his business to succeed, and he does know how to use the system quite well.

And yes, when needed, mordida can work in one's favor.

Once in Guatemala we were having trouble getting our car registered though our agent because there had been a change of government with a NO MORE MORDIDA policy. As the agent said, she just did not know to whom she could pay the mordida yet. She said it always takes a little time to figure it out when a change happens.

She figured it out pretty quickly, but the day she called us to tell us she had our new license plates, our truck was stolen. We still have the license plates as a keepsake.
:lol:

Several more good mordida stories from Central America, but this is off topic.

But, as you said, the mordia really hurts the poor. Sometime will tell you the story of a gringo working at the Guatemala City Dump with residents of the dump---he taught them lots of ways to deal with the city and saved them a lot of money, mordida, that it.

As we always say here, it is what it is----not better, not worse, just as it is.

Diane

Pescador - 5-16-2008 at 08:07 PM

This should be very interesting next year on our renewal in Santa Rosalia because we have made it a point to make friends with the Immigration people there and since we were launching the boat at the ramp right next door when we first came down, we made sure to give them some really nice fresh yellowtail. I do remember that when we came to pay for our FM3 that she had made a couple of copies and had written a letter for us and she said that it would be $150 pesos. So I guess we got the "yellowtail discount".

Russ - 5-17-2008 at 05:30 AM

Jim, For the people they like they'll have it done the same afternoon. A neighbor moved up to an FM-2 and it was done in a week.

rts551 - 5-17-2008 at 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Russ
Jim, For the people they like they'll have it done the same afternoon. A neighbor moved up to an FM-2 and it was done in a week.

Same experience here. I have had nothing but good experiences with them.

Ralph