BajaNomad - Why things are different in Mexico?1 work

Why things are different in Mexico?1 work

Bruce R Leech - 7-15-2008 at 08:19 AM

this is part one of a series of threads that will deal with the subject of Why things are different in Mexico?? I will state my opinion and the everyone can post there thoughts on the subject.

IMO one big problem is the way people are hired for a job or elected to a public office. It doesn't mater what there qualifications or experience is it is more who they are or who they know or how they look that gets them the job. this insures that you will have incompetent people working on all levels. :lol:

[Edited on 7-15-2008 by Bruce R Leech]

shari - 7-15-2008 at 08:37 AM

I have rarely encountered anyone getting a job based on how they look...in our part of the desert anway...I would say the responsibility for choosing a competent worker is up to the person hiring to check credentials, or at least talk to others who the person has done work for. NOW...having done that...one can hire someone who has done great work...BUT IMHO one of the big problems is that there are SOOOOO MANY variable involved in getting jobs done...some examples...trucks break down, water goes off so they cant mix cement, power failure, family member sick, deaths(take a few days to mourn), supplies dont arrive on time, need to go to Ensenada for materials(truck ALWAYS breaks down there)...events to attend like graduations, hangovers, binges...there are TONS of reasons to postpone work...what I have observed is that mexicanos dont have the same work "ethic" as northerners...work ISNT the most important thing in their life...it's just something you have do to buy groceries and beer. We hire fantastic builders but all these factors slow down work. Also you have to be VERY specific with everything because what is obvious to us....isn't to them...like electrical outlets...many mexicanos put them high up on the wall (less wire to buy) instead of down low....don't use ground wire for the same reason...so you have to detail everything you want and check up on them too. A tile layer did fantastic work on one wall in the bathroom but let his trainee do the other one which he made a mess out of on the grout...sheeesh...you must be firm and get them to do it right...their idea of OK is quite different than "ours"...I'm know to be VERY fastidious, which I am sooo not but compared to the "local standards", maybe I am.
I believe things don't work in general due to the "patch it up with chewing gum"...which is not due to lazyness but a lack of proper materials & money to fix things right. WE/they are so used to having to make due with little...it's a way of life...
Also we/they have become so used to things not working "properly" that we become complacent...mexicanos are VERY patient and just shrug off problems like power outages, no water, poorly organized events, lateness...NI MODO...oh well...which by the way has made me a much more patient and happy person...when I stopped complaining about all of this and just started shrugging it off...whatever...if I can't do laundry today...well maybe tomorrow amigo...might as well go to the beach!

Osprey - 7-15-2008 at 08:37 AM

Who would hire Bruce to start a thread like this?

Osprey - 7-15-2008 at 08:44 AM

Shari, well said. There are thousands of expats who just can't let go. They can never give in to the culture. They can never give up, give in, let it go, become someone else, slide over to a new and different level. Was like falling off a log for me because I was always headed that way. Now little things don't bother me -- what does me in is watching the process destroy those anal retentives coming unwrapped to the dismay of everyone in shouting distance.

Diver - 7-15-2008 at 09:27 AM

Having begun my adjustment to all things Mexican, I think the issue of "Why things don't work in Mexico" is somewhat in the "eyes of the beholder."
If you expect to have your contractor arrive at 8AM everyday and bring all the tools you have seen in the US and do the job the way you have seen in the US; you are doomed.
On the other hand, I've been amazed that so many things DO work. Recognizing the obvious lack of technical or engineering expertise in many things Mexican, I have been surprised at the relative success of their efforts.
Basic intelligence is not lacking but sometimes communication, family, social customs, personal generosity or celebration just get in the way !
Except for "communication"; I would hate to see any of these things change.

Skeet/Loreto - 7-15-2008 at 09:49 AM

Bruce: Very good Question;
My answer follows:

I have been told by many of my Mexicano Friends"Do what you can do this day, Not to worry about Tommorrow"

They just do not have the same desires as the North American who is striving for Money every moment of their LIfe.

I took vegetable seeds to Chico thinking he would plant them and have something to Eat! He Said to me" If I get Hungry, I will go Fishing" less work and more Fun.

The feeling of "Not sweating the small Stuff" Not Today, etc. is what caused me to spend 38 years with the Layed Back Mexicanos!!

It don"t make no Nevermind!!

fulano - 7-15-2008 at 09:50 AM

As posted by fulano on another thread 6/21/2008:

Quote:

Let me tell you some thing about Mexico, in case nobody has figured it out...and I am not trying to be disparaging of the Mexican people -- who are good people for the most part.

The United States is a meritocracy. In a meritocracy, usually appointments are made and responsibilities are given based on demonstrated talent and ability. Mexico is not a meritocracy. It is a mixture of a plutocracy (wealth), oligarchy (class privilege) and nepotism (family connections). So in Mexico, you find that people in very high place of authority tend to be very mediocre...yeomen at best.

Eugenio - 7-15-2008 at 09:50 AM

When I read Bruce's post I was thinking more about governmental positions - where nepotism and favoritism exists.

For example when a new mayor is elected it's logical that they would move their new team in - but so many times the new team consists of relatives, friends, and nice looking muchachas that don't have the experience or interest to do a good job.

Udo - 7-15-2008 at 09:51 AM

Diver & Shari are right -on!
In reading posts from another group (YAHOO USERS, EL DORADO RANCH), they have figured out who is and is not competent in doing a specific job, and they keep lists posted.
But, alas, as in numerous other postings, they have gotten polititcal and b-tchi instead of informative so I quit getting their posts.
My take from taveling BAJA for 42 years is that MANANA (with an enye) is the attitude of all citizens and they really have no urgency no matter what the job. The Mexican citizens will never adjust to an American agenda no matter how much money we throw at the country.

THAT'S MY TWO CENTAVOS WORTH

oldlady - 7-15-2008 at 09:59 AM

I think all of you make very good points.

This may sound "picky", but If it were my thread I would title it "Why things are different in Mexico or Baja or whatever." The differences discussed allow the reader to make an assesment as to whether the ramifications of the differences are something they can tolerate, work around, or enjoy without a predetermined bias of "don't work".

Not meant to be negative about the content, Bruce.

Bruce R Leech - 7-15-2008 at 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady
I think all of you make very good points.

This may sound "picky", but If it were my thread I would title it "Why things are different in Mexico or Baja or whatever." The differences discussed allow the reader to make an assesment as to whether the ramifications of the differences are something they can tolerate, work around, or enjoy without a predetermined bias of "don't work".

Not meant to be negative about the content, Bruce.

I think you are right and consider it done :light:

rts551 - 7-15-2008 at 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by udowinkler
My take from taveling BAJA for 42 years is that MANANA (with an enye) is the attitude of all citizens and they really have no urgency no matter what the job. The Mexican citizens will never adjust to an American agenda no matter how much money we throw at the country.

THAT'S MY TWO CENTAVOS WORTH

And why should they adjust?

Taco de Baja - 7-15-2008 at 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce R Leech
IMO one big problem is the way people are hired for a job or elected to a public office. It doesn't mater what there qualifications or experience is it is more who they are or who they know or how they look that gets them the job. this insures that you will have incompetent people working on all levels. :lol:

[Edited on 7-15-2008 by Bruce R Leech]

Sadly, the same is true in the USA too....Why do you think CA has a $15 BILLION + budget shortfall. Incompetent elected boobs who spend like college kids on a spring break trip to Baja. The only thing they are good at is drawing district lines that guarantee that they will continue to 'win' elections until term limits kicks them out.

mtgoat666 - 7-15-2008 at 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fulano
As posted by fulano on another thread 6/21/2008:

Quote:

The election of GWB to highest office negates your satement about US. But the upcoming election of Obama proves your post. You score 50%, fulano, not enough to get a job in my meritocracy.

Barry A. - 7-15-2008 at 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

The election of GWB to highest office negates your satement about US. But the upcoming election of Obama proves your post. You score 50%, fulano, not enough to get a job in my meritocracy.

Now THAT is a silly statement---------any indepth study of GWB's credentials reveals that he IS educated, and an intelligent man. He may not have the brain-power of say a Bill Clinton, but then few do, and certainly not many Presidents of the USA. And as shown, Brain Power alone is not necessarily a required gualification for stellar behavior.

I can't think of something much more stupid than having an affair in the Oval Office, which ruined what was otherwise a darn good Presidency.

You brought it up----------

Barry

stanburn - 7-15-2008 at 11:00 AM

Okay, I can't stop myself since this thread is already hijacked. One thing that I think is more stupid that having an affair is starting a war under false pretenses and getting over 4000 of our military members killed. Dislaimer, I am retired military.

flame away

Don Alley - 7-15-2008 at 11:00 AM

My impressions from Loreto are that things get done, and often done well, as long as they are things within the experience level of the community. I have no complaints with the basic, traditional services. But when changing times and modernization move in, and new challenges arise, people are not always up to the task.

Development planning, rebuilding the sewer system and building new concrete city streets have not been without problems in Loreto. Seems to me they are trying to manage these activities with a labor pool of small town folks without the necessary education or experience.

On a larger scale, it has taken government and Mexican corporations years to figure out and implement things like over-the-counter fishing license sales and paying and managing accounts over the internet. I know the US has brought in many foreign workers to do high tech work; Mexico seems to insist on home-grown solutions, even if that means that it takes years for Telmex to get an online bill paying system to work. (It still does not work for out of country credit cards). I think there are many tasks that need a better educated work force, or, as an alternative, imported contractors with relevant experience.

As far as the meritocracy concept goes, I don't think that elected US officials are considered a part of any meritocracy, nor are their higher appointed officials. But I have worked with many career government officials in natural resource areas in the US and found them, for the most part very knowledgeable and very capable. Their jobs are safe regardless of who takes office after the next election; that's not as often the case in Mexico. And in business, while there may be imperfections the system is primarily a meritocracy.

For the most part these are Mexican problems that will impact the Mexican people more than expats like me. But I don't admire their laid back acceptance of these problems. Taking a little too long to complete a building project is one thing, but being decades behind in developing proper management of natural resources, from fish to oil, and lagging in the development of more efficient and modern police and legal systems, could lead to a bleak future.

Barry A. - 7-15-2008 at 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by stanburn
Okay, I can't stop myself since this thread is already hijacked. One thing that I think is more stupid that having an affair is starting a war under false pretenses and getting over 4000 of our military members killed. Dislaimer, I am retired military.

flame away

More sillyness!!!!!

Don Alley--------a great post, and excellent observations. I apologise for assisting in taking this thread off topic, and for doing exactly what I just advised "Fulano" NOT to do. :?:

Barry

Pescador - 7-15-2008 at 01:38 PM

Why is it that instead of describing a situation that exists like Shari does so well almost always turns into a North America Fix for any given situation. I moved to Mexico because I happen to like Mexico and not because I wanted to retire in , God Forbid, southern California. As a culture we always come in with our psychological bulldozers and want to get everybody else on the "right track". I am amazed when I first visited Rocky Point (Puerto Penasco) and saw, of all things, a rest stop with clean restrooms, signs depicting who was cleaning the next mile of road, emptied trash barrels at every pull out. I thought someone was playing a game with my mind and I was still stuck in Arizona and had somehow not actually crossed the border.
Things are a little different here but was that not what attracted most of us in the first place. I really liked getting a general building permit and having the freedom to do things the way I wanted them done without some beauracrat bimbo checking every step of the way. I like knowing that I am pretty much responsible for safeguarding my property and possessions and it is not going to be the responsibility of a small town policeman. I like knowing that if the workers like me they will do a better job if I treat them well and with respect and that if they have the urge to go to Santa Rosalia for the day that I understand and accept that.
This whole thing starts to remind me of the Broadway hit about couples, I love you, you are perfect, Now Change.

Bruce R Leech - 7-15-2008 at 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador
Why is it that instead of describing a situation that exists like Shari does so well almost always turns into a North America Fix for any given situation. I moved to Mexico because I happen to like Mexico and not because I wanted to retire in , God Forbid, southern California. As a culture we always come in with our psychological bulldozers and want to get everybody else on the "right track". I am amazed when I first visited Rocky Point (Puerto Penasco) and saw, of all things, a rest stop with clean restrooms, signs depicting who was cleaning the next mile of road, emptied trash barrels at every pull out. I thought someone was playing a game with my mind and I was still stuck in Arizona and had somehow not actually crossed the border.
Things are a little different here but was that not what attracted most of us in the first place. I really liked getting a general building permit and having the freedom to do things the way I wanted them done without some beauracrat bimbo checking every step of the way. I like knowing that I am pretty much responsible for safeguarding my property and possessions and it is not going to be the responsibility of a small town policeman. I like knowing that if the workers like me they will do a better job if I treat them well and with respect and that if they have the urge to go to Santa Rosalia for the day that I understand and accept that.
This whole thing starts to remind me of the Broadway hit about couples, I love you, you are perfect, Now Change.

we think the same. it must be the then clear air in Colorado that lets us see things the way we do :lol:

go Broncos

palmeto99 - 7-15-2008 at 06:17 PM

Most if not all people who move to Mexico are not trying to change Mexican culture . They try to teach those who need help. This is what we do . This might not jive with some who move to Mexico to drown themselves in what they perceive to be Mexican culture. Being poor, ignorant of events outside of their villiage and scared of their own government does not qualify as culture. I remember being questioned by an off duty policemen in a small townbar in Bajs Sur a couple of years ago about the minutemen who at that time were just starting to patrol the border with Mexico. He could not understand how we were allowing these men to kill all of the inocent Mexicans who were running the border. No matter what I said about how this could not happen with the oversight of the law there. He could not understand it because they did not have the same oversight on his side of the line. Most Mexicans will tell you the same thing if you ask them about the USA border. Food for thought.... :smug:

palmeto99 - 7-15-2008 at 07:11 PM

Its what we do as americans and what most countries in the western world encourage their citizens to do. Have you ever heard of the peace corp ? Its not that we are better, its just that we have expertise and know how . Its why most ambulances and firetrucks in Mexico as well as medical equipment come from the USA rotary clubs. The new high volume water pumps for the water system in Mulege (also supplied by the rotary.) The mexican government not only wants us to help as we do but are happy because they do not have to do it themselves.

Iflyfish - 7-15-2008 at 07:36 PM

The USofA and Mexico have very different histories, these histories affect the way things are done. Both countries have a system that works. To deny this is to practice cultural ethnocentricism. Human beings are ethnocentric and fear and critize "the other".

When I find myself irritated about something, like I did a while ago related to the topic of "different prices for different people", I try to understand that which frustrates me from the perspective of the ordinary Mexican.

Issues like this double standard acually work in Mexico and have evolved over centuries. I get myself in a crack when I try to change what I want to be different in Mexico. It however is very much syntonic with my North American upbringing to be a "problem solver" and to fix that which appears to be broken. I was raised in a Puritan based, individualistic society that rewards individual inititative and competancy. It is also very much a part of my background and development to believe that I can fix "systems" and actually think systemically. I have grown up in a society that taught me that anyone could be President....that Superman could right wrongs...and that science and reason could solve all problems.

I grew up in a society where the police are seen as our friends and that they stand up for the victim. I grew up in a society where I could drink the water with out thinking about it. I grew up in a society that believed that one was innocent till proven guilty. I grew up with a system of courts with trial by peers, habius corpus and other guarentees of my rights. I grew up in a society where the ground wire was indeed connected and I did not have to worry about electrocuting myself in the shower.

I am not saying that my upbringing was better than one raised in Mexico, I am just pointing out the very real developmental differences that are the source of much that frustrates Nortes in Mexico. There are real differences.

I also agree with Shari, Osprey and others that when in Rome one should appreciate what the Romans are doing and understand and appreciate the functionality of their ways of doing things and being in the world. There are very good reasons why Mexicans do things the way that they do and need to "tropicalize" any new innovation.

IflyfishandloveMexicoandit'samazingpeople

Barry A. - 7-16-2008 at 11:15 AM

Very well said, Fish. (bump) Barry

CaboRon - 7-16-2008 at 11:31 AM

Thank you Fish, well put ...

CaboRon

palmeto99 - 7-16-2008 at 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

I agree, GWBs problems are not intelligence.He will be remembered as a good solid president who did his best. Clintons history will be a little bit more spotty(dress) The fact that he was so reckless while in office and the democratic followers so quick to forgive what we know about him and his abuses of women is really frightening given that they might get into office again.. :coolup: