BajaNomad - Why things are different in Mexico 3 legal

Why things are different in Mexico 3 legal

Bruce R Leech - 7-15-2008 at 10:44 AM

I don't know of another country in the world that has so many laws and so little enforcement.

when the laws and enforcement are set up in favor of the criminals you are going to have a lot of criminals.

woody with a view - 7-15-2008 at 10:59 AM

examples?

i don't think the laws are in favor of the criminals, i think that money buys influence. corruption rules. mexico has enough laws they just don't have enough "criminals" being made to stand before the law.

Barry A. - 7-15-2008 at 11:00 AM

MEXICO--------- Mostly GREAT laws, and lousy enforcement!!

Barry

shari - 7-15-2008 at 12:44 PM

NOt enough officers is a big problem, particularly in remote comunities where there are no ministerial publico offices.Most petty crime goes unreported because to file a report, one has to pay to go to another town...a 5 hour trip...and you end up having to make several trips as the guy is never there(even when he says he will be), then you have to pay expenses of a witness or 2...it ends up costing you more to file a report than the cost of what got stolen!!! Plus usually the "crime" doesn't get solved. This is why many "deal" with petty crime in their own way.
For example if a worker takes money for a job and doesnt' do it, there is very little you can do that doesn't cost you more than he owes you...therefore most guys know this and know you aren't gonna do squat about it so they continue to rip people off...sometimes not on purpose but due to their vices...money debts are kinda just shrugged off here too...I get more bent out of shape about it than the locals here...it's not just a rip off the gringo thing...many borrow money from friends and family and just never pay it back....period...so I learned only to lend $ I don't expect to get back...live and learn.
One thing I do like about mexican law is that it's not "necessarily" enforced unless it is doing harm to someone or until someone complains...which leaves alot of wiggle room for marginal law breakers.

woody with a view - 7-15-2008 at 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
NOt enough officers is a big problem, particularly in remote comunities where there are no ministerial publico offices.Most petty crime goes unreported because to file a report, one has to pay to go to another town...a 5 hour trip...and you end up having to make several trips as the guy is never there(even when he says he will be), then you have to pay expenses of a witness or 2...it ends up costing you more to file a report than the cost of what got stolen!!! Plus usually the "crime" doesn't get solved. This is why many "deal" with petty crime in their own way.
For example if a worker takes money for a job and doesnt' do it, there is very little you can do that doesn't cost you more than he owes you...therefore most guys know this and know you aren't gonna do squat about it so they continue to rip people off...sometimes not on purpose but due to their vices...money debts are kinda just shrugged off here too...I get more bent out of shape about it than the locals here...it's not just a rip off the gringo thing...many borrow money from friends and family and just never pay it back....period...so I learned only to lend $ I don't expect to get back...live and learn.
One thing I do like about mexican law is that it's not "necessarily" enforced unless it is doing harm to someone or until someone complains...which leaves alot of wiggle room for marginal law breakers.

WOW!!!! sounds like some "enforcement" might be just what the punks need.

oldlady - 7-15-2008 at 01:19 PM

Laws vs enforcement...could it be a cultural thing?

I have no idea how many laws Mexico has vs countries like Switzerland or Germany. Whether it has more or less. On the anecdotal evidence of travel, I observe that the Germans and Swiss seem to value order more than most other countries I have visited. Things are more punctual, store inventories displayed in a more precise way, and indeed a seemingly high value placed on rules and the law is manifested in the behavior of the citizenry. In the US we call it respect for the rule of law. Most people have bought into it for a long enough period of time that it becomes a part of the culture.
Mexico, at least my experience in Baja California, is more casual and indeed in a lot of ways less judgemental, albeit more forgiving. Oh, we can argue that because of corruption laws are not enforced. Surely that is part of it. I can't quanitfy that. But I wonder if growing up in a culture of more casual regard for rules isn't also contributing to it's officers having a more casual regard for enforcement. Alas, the gray area can become darker and the level of control can shift to the debate of a failed state. But that was another thread..........

[Edited on 7-15-2008 by oldlady]

Cypress - 7-15-2008 at 01:42 PM

Regarding law enforcement south of the border, it's live and let live. :bounce:

North of the border the law enforcement, in many cases, is very aggressive.

Case in point. Went thru several military check-points heading north out of Baja, no problems. The solders were very polite and friendly. Went thru one US Border Patrol road block north of Yuma. Was made to spread eagle while my pockets were searched as they emptied my truck, this taking place at about 7:00 AM. Was asked about my criminal/drug history.

Too top it off I had to re-pack all the stuff they pulled out of my truck.

They seemed to think it was funny.

k-rico - 7-15-2008 at 01:53 PM

Money is also a problem. It takes a lot of money to enforce the laws. Mexico collects very little taxes compared to the US. My property taxes are less than 1/10th of equal cost CA properties.

Oso - 7-15-2008 at 04:00 PM

Somewhat outdated comparison of Euro legal systems:

In England everything is permitted except that which is expressly forbidden.

In Germany everything is forbidden except that which is expressly permitted.

In France everything is permitted even that which is expressly forbidden.

In Russia everything is forbidden even that which is expressly permitted.

Bruce R Leech - 7-15-2008 at 04:37 PM

Example.....it took 3 years to get the stupid cell phone law on the books in California. it took three days to get it here in Ensenada. it is very quick and easy to get new laws here that is why we have so many worthless laws.

palmeto99 - 7-15-2008 at 09:42 PM

How many of the policia know the laws and how many make up their own as they go along. The bulk of police in Mexico do not finish school which would be great if this were 1867 but its not. The next time you have a problem with a Mexican national and the police are involved, you will end up paying the cops and will still come out on the losing end. No exception.. :cool:

shari - 7-16-2008 at 09:47 AM

I witnessed a very interesting mexican law that I did not know existed...ou are forbidden to argue abusively in public....one day a friend of ours was rinsing out a wet suit in our driveway when an U.S.citizen came onto our property and started yelling at him in abusive language....swearing...our friend had never seen this man before and thought he was loco...but being a man..he did not like being told to F'off for no reason...so he answered him back in a similar fashion. Luckily Juan came along and calmly asked the man if he was looking for a fight or what? If so, lets go, right here right now with him....so the man left.
Juan did what was expected of him and went to the police station to file a complaint about the man coming onto our property and making trouble. Both parties were called in to hear both sides of the story.
The man was fined 500 pesos I think for arguing in public BUT the crazy thing was that the guy who he picked a fight with was also fined 250 pesos for answering back!!!!!! I was so mad and thought that was terribly unfair...but as it was fully explained to me...well....I kinda understood it more and realized WHY this law is used.
When you think about it...sometimes serious fights can occur arising from a simple argument...sometimes causing more damage than intended...particularly in a hot blooded culture. It is this culture that dictates one must not back down which causes lots of problems....so this law is designed to keep that somewhat in check...it is meant to try to stop arguments before they get worse. One is supposed to calmly not get drawn into the fight and go down and report the trouble maker...andhe will learn not to bother picking fights with you anymore. I find this to be sooo interesting and is for the good of the community.
So you see, it's not just gringos vs. mexicanos here...it's anyone who gets into a fight. I now warn our friends not to get involved in arguments with anyone...good practise I think.

CaboRon - 7-16-2008 at 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
Money is also a problem. It takes a lot of money to enforce the laws. Mexico collects very little taxes compared to the US. My property taxes are less than 1/10th of equal cost CA properties.

In Todos Santos the police routinely turn back any pleas for help in investigating burgerlies saying they do not have the rescources to do anything.

Recently a resident had to subdue the perp. drag his sorry burro to the highway, wave down the polici, who refused to take him in until they were paid a hundred peso bribe.

We were told by our new representative that she would make sure the entire police force was replaced. We are waiting for that to happen.

CaboRon

Stickers - 7-16-2008 at 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oso
Somewhat outdated comparison of Euro legal systems:

In England everything is permitted except that which is expressly forbidden.

In Germany everything is forbidden except that which is expressly permitted.

In France everything is permitted even that which is expressly forbidden.

In Russia everything is forbidden even that which is expressly permitted.

great one Oso

I know where I want to live --- FRANCE !!!

.

palmeto99 - 7-16-2008 at 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
I witnessed a very interesting mexican law that I did not know existed...ou are forbidden to argue abusively in public....one day a friend of ours was rinsing out a wet suit in our driveway when an U.S.citizen came onto our property and started yelling at him in abusive language....swearing...our friend had never seen this man before and thought he was loco...but being a man..he did not like being told to F'off for no reason...so he answered him back in a similar fashion. Luckily Juan came along and calmly asked the man if he was looking for a fight or what? If so, lets go, right here right now with him....so the man left.
Juan did what was expected of him and went to the police station to file a complaint about the man coming onto our property and making trouble. Both parties were called in to hear both sides of the story.
The man was fined 500 pesos I think for arguing in public BUT the crazy thing was that the guy who he picked a fight with was also fined 250 pesos for answering back!!!!!! I was so mad and thought that was terribly unfair...but as it was fully explained to me...well....I kinda understood it more and realized WHY this law is used.
When you think about it...sometimes serious fights can occur arising from a simple argument...sometimes causing more damage than intended...particularly in a hot blooded culture. It is this culture that dictates one must not back down which causes lots of problems....so this law is designed to keep that somewhat in check...it is meant to try to stop arguments before they get worse. One is supposed to calmly not get drawn into the fight and go down and report the trouble maker...andhe will learn not to bother picking fights with you anymore. I find this to be sooo interesting and is for the good of the community.
So you see, it's not just gringos vs. mexicanos here...it's anyone who gets into a fight. I now warn our friends not to get involved in arguments with anyone...good practise I think.

Shari, Do you really think that outlawing an argument between adults is healthy. Sounds like something out of the old Soviet Union..
I remember a bumper sticker I saw up in Toronto ,Canada last year that read "THE GOVERNMENT OF CANADA LOVES UNARMED ,ILLINFORMED LEMMINGS AS ITS CITIZENS"
Now I know why you think this law is a good one for Mexico... :biggrin:

fulano - 7-16-2008 at 11:33 AM

Quote:

There is an error in your theory. It assumes that property taxes are the only source of government revenues in Mexico. Historically, property taxes have never been a big revenue source in Mexico. Pemex has been the cash cow in Mexico.

The way to look at it is to consider total government per capita spending in Mexico compared to the US. In the US, governmental spending is about 35% of GDP. In Mexico it is about 27%. When you get down under the numbers, it looks worse, as the US has a huge military budget and Mexico's is miniscule in comparison.

palmeto99 - 7-16-2008 at 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fulano

Quote:

There is an error in your theory. It assumes that property taxes are the only source of government revenues in Mexico. Historically, property taxes have never been a big revenue source in Mexico. Pemex has been the cash cow in Mexico.

How much do the Mexicans really spend as to how much they say they spend.? That also hinders the point... :coolup:

fulano - 7-16-2008 at 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by palmeto99
How much do the Mexicans really spend as to how much they say they spend.? That also hinders the point... :coolup:

Quien sabe?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-04-16-mexico-bribery...