BajaNomad - People who dislike Mexico and Mexican Culture

People who dislike Mexico and Mexican Culture

DianaT - 7-16-2008 at 01:29 PM

Why do people who only find the negative in Mexico and do not like the Mexican Culture travel, or even worse, live full or part time in Mexico??

The culture is different, not necessarily better or worse, just different.

We will continue to stick with, it is what it is. Oh, it is also different here in Bahia Asuncion than what we have found in many places on the mainland, so is one better than the other? No, just different.

If one doesn't like the law, or the building standards, etc., then why be here? It is a choice.

Do we ever get frustrated and wish things were a little more like to what we are accustomed? Yes, but we get past it.

When we lived in Honduras there were too many things to which we did not want to adjust to long term, so we left, and we found Guatemala quite intolerable in many ways, so we left.

So why if people find Mexico and its culture "wrong" ---why don't they stay in the United States or Canada?

Oh, Mexico does have some serious problems, but they are not alone.

JMHO
Diane

[Edited on 7-16-2008 by jdtrotter]

Cypress - 7-16-2008 at 01:40 PM

It's one of those "I'm better than you things".

Some folks feel more comfortable when they're looking down their nose at someone.

gnukid - 7-16-2008 at 01:47 PM

I too really enjoy your posts and envy your life in the pueblo.

It does seem that you are missing the point here of the postings about what is happening today versus lets say 20 years ago. To discuss what is going on is not negative. To discuss translations, corrections, misinterpretations isn't negative?

On the other hand to discourage and disparage discussion is negative. And to suggest that those who talk about the interconnected nature of passivity to deterioration of the place we love, is negative vastly misses the point Diane.

I believe that you and everyone here throughout Baja especially those in Pueblos are capable of discussing these issues openly with their Mexican neighbors and listen carefully to what they say. They too understand the issues and together we can organize to improve upon our standard of living, achieve greater cooperation and work together to ensure that we support each other toward making our communities safe and sound, lawfully and financially.

Talking about lack of enforcement doesn't mean we don't like it here. It means we do like it and we want to enforce existing standards. A civil society is a functioning one.

Now, we have mentioned changes in the Law in Mexico and the challenge this brings over the next 20 years ahead. This may or may not have been an agreement between Mexico and the USA and Canada to align our legal systems, doesn't matter its the law and we must abide.

So, please open your heart to accept not only your pueblo and your neighbors but your counterparts and compatriots too to who are working to bring about understanding and critical analysis while pursuing the truth.

Finding the truth where you didn't expect it is often nearly always an upsetting experience but get over it and accept that the truth is not always pretty.

fulano - 7-16-2008 at 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter
When we lived in Honduras there were too many things to which we did not want to adjust to long term, so we left, and we found Guatemala quite intolerable in many ways, so we left.

Why are people always coming on here and saying bad things about Honduras and Guatemala?

:lol:

[OK Diane, before you respond, cool your jets. That was just some pointed sarcasm to point out the irony in your post.]

rts551 - 7-16-2008 at 02:19 PM

"The truth".... :lol:

tripledigitken - 7-16-2008 at 02:45 PM

Please lecture us some more of the truth about Baja.

Its especially interesting coming from some that live in Baja, and apparently can't afford to walk away and come back home. What a pity to be so cynical and unhappy in a place you used to love and now have grown to hate.

Maybe if you keep repeating the same negative mantra we too will begin to hate Baja also. (wasn't that Goebells?)

Before you chime in Ful a no, I really do appreciate your "crime beat" reports, but believe it or not most of us are aware of current situation in Baja.

(As a matter of fact, recently, the bad news in the US eclipses that of Baja.)

I'm thinking today that:

running the gauntlet of Rosarito
risking mordida from policemen
hunting for Diesel in Baja Norte

is a respite from:

is my bank going down?
will Israel bomb Iran?
will gas be $8 gal when I retire?
what will my house be worth next year?

Ken

palmeto99 - 7-16-2008 at 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
Please lecture us some more of the truth about Baja.

Its especially interesting coming from some that live in Baja, and apparently can't afford to walk away and come back home. What a pity to be so cynical and unhappy in a place you used to love and now have grown to hate.

Maybe if you keep repeating the same negative mantra we too will begin to hate Baja also. (wasn't that Goebells?)

Before you chime in Ful a no, I really do appreciate your "crime beat" reports, but believe it or not most of us are aware of current situation in Baja.

(As a matter of fact, recently, the bad news in the US eclipses that of Baja.)

I'm thinking today that:

running the gauntlet of Rosarito
risking mordida from policemen
hunting for Diesel in Baja Norte

is a respite from:

is my bank going down?
will Israel bomb Iran?
will gas be $8 gal when I retire?
what will my house be worth next year?

Ken

There are those of us who can afford to leave but choose to stay in spite of how bad things have gotten. We are the ones that remember how the corruption was being cleaned up only to get worse as the war with the cartels has become the main focus of the Government. I came to Mexico because it was cleaning up its act after the peso devaluation in the 1990s. They were dealing with the land reforms and the fido system was put in place to protect our investment interests. All of these things are in danger of taking many steps back and reporting on what you call negative news reports is a positive thing in my book. No one is demanding change from Mexico. We want them to continue what they started and what brought us here in the first place.
CLEAN UP THE CORRUPTION
FIRE THE DIRTY COPS
GET RID OF THE BITE
MAKE IT SAFE FOR TOURISTS
BRING THE INFRASTRUCTURE UP TO REASONABLE STANDARDS

tripledigitken - 7-16-2008 at 03:51 PM

Quote:

palmeto99,

Good answer. Props to you for staying in the place you love, and for having the desire for it to improve. Don't get me wrong about my aversion to some beating the negative stories into the ground.

There is a difference between posting some useful news that may be negative and posting nothing but negative news and lecturing. Most here, I firmly believe, have their collective eyes wide open with regards to the reality of Baja/Mexico. To be lectured by a few is getting very old.

I share your love of Punta Chivato, by the way! Welcome to Baja Nomad!

Ken

CaboRon - 7-16-2008 at 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
I too really enjoy your posts and envy your life in the pueblo.

It does seem that you are missing the point here of the postings about what is happening today versus lets say 20 years ago. To discuss what is going on is not negative. To discuss translations, corrections, misinterpretations isn't negative?

On the other hand to discourage and disparage discussion is negative. And to suggest that those who talk about the interconnected nature of passivity to deterioration of the place we love, is negative vastly misses the point Diane.

I believe that you and everyone here throughout Baja especially those in Pueblos are capable of discussing these issues openly with their Mexican neighbors and listen carefully to what they say. They too understand the issues and together we can organize to improve upon our standard of living, achieve greater cooperation and work together to ensure that we support each other toward making our communities safe and sound, lawfully and financially.

Talking about lack of enforcement doesn't mean we don't like it here. It means we do like it and we want to enforce existing standards. A civil society is a functioning one.

Now, we have mentioned changes in the Law in Mexico and the challenge this brings over the next 20 years ahead. This may or may not have been an agreement between Mexico and the USA and Canada to align our legal systems, doesn't matter its the law and we must abide.

So, please open your heart to accept not only your pueblo and your neighbors but your counterparts and compatriots too to who are working to bring about understanding and critical analysis while pursuing the truth.

Finding the truth where you didn't expect it is often nearly always an upsetting experience but get over it and accept that the truth is not always pretty.

I would encourage you to actually slow down and read the post above....

Sage words....

And who said anything about not loving La Baja ....

Criticism is Careing .....

What's wrong with trying to make the world a fairer place for everyone ?

If there was no growth we would still be cave men :lol:

CaboRon

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-16-2008 at 04:02 PM

Hey gnukid...I heard back from Presidente Calderon...He said they are working on the situation to make Mexico a safer place for all. I believe him but we must be patient as it will take time.

CaboRon - 7-16-2008 at 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ELINVESTI8
Hey gnukid...I heard back from Presidente Calderon...He said they are working on the situation to make Mexico a safer place for all. I believe him but we must be patient as it will take time.

A loooooooooooooong, looooooooooooooooong time :lol:

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-16-2008 at 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
A loooooooooooooong, looooooooooooooooong time :lol:

Agreed Brother...

redmesa - 7-16-2008 at 05:16 PM

Gnukid ...Hmmmm 20 years ago? I go back to Mexican politics 40 years ago. My uncle lost his silver mine to nationalization. So could we all lose it all at any time and be booted out of the country. We are guests and we better not forget it.

CaboRon - 7-19-2008 at 02:48 PM

Quote:

gnukid - 7-19-2008 at 03:25 PM

At night when we sit around and watch TV on occasion, my mexican friends, University scientists and scholars, they watch CSI, Animal Planet's Humane Society Investigators, all the detective shows, they believe that as citizens of the USA we understand criminal prosecution.

The believe that each and every Norte Americano knows the methodology for fingerprinting, DNA analysis, fabric analysis, video and photo evidence etc... along with a lot of other crap, and they believe that we can show them how to gather evidence to prosecute criminal activity.

The truth is the shows are fantastic. But we do know know about these methods somewhat and we can use them theatrically to demonstrate the power of evidence without even reaching the point of prosecution, we can help out to gather witnesses and evidence of criminal activity and persist to put desnuncias on criminals.

Whether or not the perception is true, that Norte Americanos have more resources to pursue crime or not, the fact that a perception of sophistication can be used to the advantage.

Just as those shows are theatrical so is the process of deterring crimes and of criminal prosecution. And hey, criminal evidence doesn't hurt.

One thing I do is when I see graffiti artists or a group of no goods hanging around, I go and greet them nicely and ask their names and look each one in the eye "te conosco, eres un primo aqui?" If I can, I will ask if we can take a picture, they look like a famous person... more and more we have them on film and by name and background more and more by doing so they know that this is not a good place to do their tagging and petty theft.

Whenever possible advertise that those deterrent methods are available, tell funny stories about a guy who was caught in the act, gather what you can and maintain witnesses, bring people with you to every interaction and contractual dealings (you need two witnesses) and pursue criminals and in doing so you will prevent crime too.

In our neighborhood, we are using theatrics to send messages, think about how this relates to you and be creative. It's no so different from criminals intimidation techniques, "video grabando 24 horas" I also tell stories of a person who was electrocuted entering houses, and I tell about a person who was found inside a vacation home in a chinese trap left there for months to starve to convince people that crimes are punished even when you don't see it or hear it. From rooftops we can shoot the whole neighborhood, we also use photos and videos and pass them around via blue tooth on cell phones to show that photos and videos can capture people and easily be spread around. It acts as a deterrent to criminals and rogue cops too.

After one polite confrontation of a rogue cop or criminal with photo evidence their story is BS and they are caught, you can't imagine how fast criminals and bad cops return stolen property and run in the opposite direction and good cops greet us smiling.

Try it, could be room for a CSI Baja California next season!

[Edited on 7-19-2008 by gnukid]

CaboRon - 7-19-2008 at 03:50 PM

What a great idea :bounce:

I can just see it now

"C S I : LA BAJA " or " CABO VICE"

CaboRon :wow:

Woooosh - 7-19-2008 at 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken

I'm thinking today that:

running the gauntlet of Rosarito
risking mordida from policemen
hunting for Diesel in Baja Norte

is a respite from:

is my bank going down?
will Israel bomb Iran?
will gas be $8 gal when I retire?
what will my house be worth next year?

Ken

Hmm. I haven't heard of any recent rosarito cuota horror stories. The locals seem pleased with the new police although neighborhood petty crime is up (stolen cars and catalytic converters in my area). I still haven't found a "tourist police" (army guys in police uniform) that speaks english. They have the main street (Benito Juarez) in Rosarito Beach torn up southbound again except for one lane- it looks like they are working on the gas lines. They cry for tourist business and then close the lanes in peak summer. I hate playing chicken with mexican drivers who have no clue, no insurance, no license and no thought of alternating lanes... and that's just my family. lol

Yes, your bank is going down if you're still banking in the bricks-and-mortar stone age.

Yes, Israel will bomb Iran. I've been there a dozen times, love the people- never understood their actions. It's no wonder the Mayan calendar ends in 2012- everything is right at the tipping point.

As last week shows- when demand drops, so does the price. Buy a hybrid and get off the gird- then you can plan your retirement dollars without the wild card of utilties. Of course that's trumped buy the healthcare wildcard.

If in the USA, your house value is going to drop further to the price that banks are dumping similar REO properties. The foreclosure rate is accelerating so more banks will dump properties until they all get bought up and the market can work it's way back up. I don't feel a sorry for people who are upside down in their homes, I do feel bad for their abandoned pets though. Like a lot of gringo ex-pats- we built our house with no intent to sell in this lifetime. House values are way down here too- but who cares unless you're a speculator or bought into the realtor hype of a few years ago (Trump Baja has yet to even break ground and sold out two yearas ago).

[Edited on 7-19-2008 by Woooosh]

Osprey - 7-19-2008 at 04:43 PM

Gnukid, Cabo Ron, let us know, as you go village by village, changing the way things are. Give us a little advance notice of when to expect you in Miraflores, Santiago, Los Barriles, all up and down the peninsula doing the Lord's work, showing the gringos and Mexicans how to be better, live better, get along, progress, change. When I hear you are within spittin distance of this little village I will close the gate. The whole town will be the enclave that's tossed about a lot on this forum. Believe me fellas, we want to change our own way, on our own schedule, stumbling, bumbling but moving forward -- not as a cohesive mass but each in his own way. Pulleeees allow us the opportunity to do it without your misplaced concerns or charity that comes from your heart as a rabid caregiver or as egoistic gurus gone mad in a place you see as evil and inchoate.

Osprey, I Second You

Gypsy Jan - 7-19-2008 at 04:52 PM

In an effort to not be repetitious, kindly see my remarks on the "...Tell the Truth" below.

Regards, GJ

CaboRon - 7-19-2008 at 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Gnukid, Cabo Ron, let us know, as you go village by village, changing the way things are. Give us a little advance notice of when to expect you in Miraflores, Santiago, Los Barriles, all up and down the peninsula doing the Lord's work, showing the gringos and Mexicans how to be better, live better, get along, progress, change. When I hear you are within spittin distance of this little village I will close the gate. The whole town will be the enclave that's tossed about a lot on this forum. Believe me fellas, we want to change our own way, on our own schedule, stumbling, bumbling but moving forward -- not as a cohesive mass but each in his own way. Pulleeees allow us the opportunity to do it without your misplaced concerns or charity that comes from your heart as a rabid caregiver or as egoistic gurus gone mad in a place you see as evil and inchoate.

Not at all .... the only thing about Mexico which I see as evil are the cartels and the Catholic Church ...

And my only concern as to quality of work is only as it applies to my home and my projects ....

Just don't want to get electricuted in the shower ....

Hey, if Mexico wants to continue to drive away business through such things as the taxi cartel in CSL , that's fine with me.

And I will touch on something else .... I am an American, and we have never settled for second best in anything .... whether it be the quality of the goods we consume or the quality of workmanship that makes this a better and more comfortable world to live in .....

Right now , it pleases me to live in the beautiful Pueblo Magico of Todos Santos ..... if I reach a point where it no longer pleases me I will move on .....

I have lived in many beautiful places in my life and if it goes to hell or becomes too expensive, well there is always another place to move to ..... it's part of the reason I never buy land .... it holds you down ....

Next year I may move closer to CSL to begin consulting on a new development, I go with the flow ..... and I believe I am a citizen of the world ..... :cool:

CaboRon

[Edited on 7-20-2008 by CaboRon]

gnukid - 7-19-2008 at 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
In an effort to not be repetitious, kindly see my remarks on the "...Tell the Truth" below.

Regards, GJ

Okay

Pescador - 7-20-2008 at 08:16 AM

Quote:

I sure wish Osprey would start a school for those of us who are expressively challenged. I think this hits the nail on the head exactly in a descriptive and accurate portrait of the problem. I saw the same thing happen with a lot of the Peace Corp volunteers who had the same type of misguided and misdirected caring. As my dad used to say, "Don't show me how much you know until you show me how much you care."
God forbid that Gnukid show up in my wonderful little village with his crusader cape and laser light sword, and thank heavens we don't have a newspaper for fulano to quote every day in the forum to bring about the necessary social change and development.

CaboRon - 7-20-2008 at 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador

Quote:

It's what human beings do ....

and have always done ...

or we would still be living in caves ....

Humans, like it or not, impact the world around them ....

it is human nature to want to explore,

To build,

And to improve the world around us.

And it will always be so :saint:

I have no more control over this process than you do....

If you enjoy lliving at the edge,

and it is a great way to live ...

Well, you need to keep moving ,

because the edge keeps moving ....

CaboRon

***NOTE: There is strong interest in a bullet train from Las Vegas to Cabo San Lucas ..... They are thinking of nameing it the "Marlin Express" and is part of the master plan for CSL. Harrah's will be opening the first casino/resort :lol:

[Edited on 7-20-2008 by CaboRon]

gnukid - 7-20-2008 at 10:06 AM

Quote:

If you live in the region of Los Barriles, Santiago and Mireflores than you know that it is as serene as is it because of the cohesive actions of the community including obviuosly Chacha, Roberto, Chucky, Ronnie, Martine, Zulema, Lil' Martine etc... and the Police in the region while our friends, are scared to mess with people in any way that is not 100% correct. Never has a minsterial police in that region done something stupid like they do 30 kilometers to the north and south and for that we are all better.

Furthermore, besides increased efforts from within the communities, there are private patrols and now even more private patrols that go up and down the streets as a deterrent. These patrols are paid for by gringos.

Now, if you want to opt out and close your doors to this and not contrbute that is your choice. But believe when we talk about the region as a whole and those gringos who do not contribute to the minestrial police nor private patrols and participate in the cohesive efforts believe it is duly noted.

We believe as whole the biggest threat to the region are gringos who shut their doors.

Osprey - 7-20-2008 at 10:31 AM

Most of the gringos in my little village willing give support when they are asked. That's the big difference here. We don't have all-powerful commerciantes here so the whole town faces problems like those together. They have often asked for our input and no one, I mean no one has ever said no. There's a big, big difference between supporters and meddlers pal. Get down off your box.

gnukid - 7-20-2008 at 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Most of the gringos in my little village willing give support when they are asked. That's the big difference here. We don't have all-powerful commerciantes here so the whole town faces problems like those together. They have often asked for our input and no one, I mean no one has ever said no. There's a big, big difference between supporters and meddlers pal. Get down off your box.

Hey Pal, Aren't you the one on the soap box? Do you actually disagree with anything I have said or are you just trying to start a fight? C'mon you are being silly.

Now, you should know by now I do not step up on a soap box, I go right to el monumento de la bandera, ahem, "Por que, para nosotros, las familias, los pangeros, maestros, rancheros, y tam bien ninos, padres, madres y abuelitos y abuelitas, no perdiste tios y tias, y los extranos, touristicos, egual gringos; estamos una communidad! Estamos juntos, y quando esta problemos aqui estan nosotros problemos, quando somos bien todos son bien! Una mejore socidad, mejore gente, juntos para todos! Ya no mas estamos separados!

Osprey - 7-20-2008 at 11:00 AM

Lets talk about it after the fight.

Osprey - 7-20-2008 at 01:31 PM

Gnukid, I think you must know how generous U.S. people are. Worldwide we hold a reputation for giving. You must know about all the fine people on this board and thousands of others who bring charity to Baja California's people -- from bicycles to shoes, to school supplies for the kids. Firetrucks and toys and money, etc. etc. Look at the Mac ladies in Cabo, Cathie Smith with Kidsmart, the lady in Mulege who has put hundreds of kids through high school. If I asked board members to memorialize all the things they know about done solely in the name of giving the board would be swamped for days. A list of just the things done in my village that I know about over the last 13 years would be staggering. All I'm asking is for you to allow all those good people and many more to come to do what they feel comfortable with, without guilt or pride, hurry or worry, without your urging, advice or direction. Character is doing the right thing when no body's looking. These folks have character to spare and your admonishments somehow bring that into question -- you have a knack for restating the obvious.

Sharksbaja - 7-20-2008 at 01:44 PM

Well put Osprey. It is, on a personal level, very personal imo. What and why we give of ourselves to the benefit of others is your own business. Kudos for your desire to help folks. Just don't put strings, conditions or expectations while doing so. The rest will come natural.

Udo - 7-20-2008 at 02:45 PM

WOW!
AND I THOUGHT THAT THIS GROUP WAS ABOUT TRAVELING IN BAJA, ROAD REPORTS, SHARING SECRET BEACH HIDEAWAYS, FISHING REPORTS, WEATHER REPORTS AND ACCOMODATIONS REPORTS

Where doest it say anything about soap boxes?

palmeto99 - 7-20-2008 at 03:24 PM

Its about free speech... There are many specific places here to wax on about the items you want to discuss... :cool:

Iflyfish - 7-20-2008 at 03:30 PM

I personally appreciate this sort of exchange. If one soft focuses there is a point to be made by most and an important issues being explored here. If one can read beneath the vitriol there is useful perspective here and sometimes the dialogue illuminates that. I have learned from this sort of exchange.

I appreciate Gnukids youthful enthusiasm and desire for progress and change as well as Osprey's seasoned perspective. Most of us on this board have a love of Mexico, I sure do, and at the same time I experience powerful ambivilance at times about the differences and how they impact me. I believe we are lucky to have a forum to discuss these issues accross generations and cultures. I do not appreciate however the flaming and ad hominum arguments that add nothing to the dialogue.

Now more specifically to jd's post.

I am an American, a citizen of the USofA. I have powerful feelings of both pride and shame about my country. I am old enough to have seen many changes and some not to the better. As an American, and in many ways a typical one I think, I have hope for a better future. I have a lifelong sense of enthusiasm and regard for science and innovation. This is pretty typical for Americans, most American's are optimistic people. We put a man on the moon. We have eradicated Smallpox, we have wiped out polio, we have developed antibiotics, survived a Great Depression and the list goes on. We now have hope that we can become energy independent. Most believe that innovation will provide a path out of our dependence upon foreign energy. (It may not) We have hope for this to improve our enviorment. There are now Condors again in the skys of California, the wolf has come back from the point of extinction. Hope is generative, hope can provide motivation for change.

The sort of optimism and hope that I have expressed above does not detract from my shame over how we have exploited the enviorment, for decades not taken seriously the energy crisis, at least twice invaded another sovereign nation with out provocation or legal mandate, killed thousands and displaced millions of ordinary human beings, provided the most massive redistribution of wealth to the upper classes in the history of the world, all in my life time. I have a profound hope that the rule of law and our institutions will one day provide remedy for at least some of these issues. Again my typical American optimism.

I would like you to notice how I am both critical and proud of my country of origin. I believe that this is what we are seeing in these posts and the current dialogue about them on this forum. We all have ambivilant feelings about both the US and Mexico, if you do not then you are not paying attention. Their are cultural differences, and they account for a lot of the differences that I read about here, some are not as articulate as others in expressing those real differences. There are also very real social, economic and political changes that are happening in Mexico that we have very real feelings about. One can be critical and want to change our country and still love it. It is not an either love it or leave it affair. We can both love and want to improve ourselves, our relationships and our nations.

As to the issue of giving and "doing good" it seems to me that one can give out patronization or one can give for the pure joy of being able to do so. If one has expectations of outcomes attached to giving then the giving has strings attached and is to be rightly suspect by those who are receiving. We all need to sort out this issue of sharing and giving. Are we really trying to make others in our image? Are we trying to exiate our guilt? Do we need the appreciation of others to feel good about ourselves? All good questions. For me it is the act of giving in and of itself that feels good, when I am at my best. When not at my best I am trying to manipulate others with my giving. Motivation matters.

I appreciate the sincere dialogue that I read here on BajaNomads.

Saludos!

Iflyfish

palmeto99 - 7-20-2008 at 03:38 PM

Great post.. :cool: