BajaNomad - Frankly I Am Puzzled

Frankly I Am Puzzled

davidre - 7-16-2008 at 07:01 PM

I am pretty new to the Baja Nomad board. I have read many posts and I am saddened to see that some posters have little faith in the Mexican people and their culture. Perhaps this is because they have spent too little time with ordinary Mexicans, and have have few conversations about their hopes, dreams and aspirations. Mexico for better or worse is changing rapidly. I have seen more "advances" in the last five years than I have in the last forty. Like all nations including the United States of America, Mexico is far from perfect. She was caught with her pantalones around her ankles when big ticket crime overwhelmed a police and justice system that had been relegated to the cellar by people who saw fit to not pay officials enough money to justify proper outrage when the officials were caught taking mordida. This phenomenon isn't just Mexico's problem, far too many US Customs and Border Patrol agents have been caught and convicted of smuggling human and narcotic cargo. The average pay and benefits for these people is more than 60K a year so is the practice of accepting bribes because of insufficient pay? You be the judge. Mexico has eliminated the practice of having the presidente in power point his finger at his successor. Por dedazo has gone the way of the gooney bird. Presidente Felipe Calderon has instituted sweeping judicial legislation requiring open adjudication with attorneys and accused present to refute charges. Anyone who believes that Mexicans are insensitive to crime have not been in Mexico when MILLIONS of ciudanos marched to protest inadequate police protection. This is a compelling sign that Mexicans are sick and tired of the status quo. Gone are the days when Mexicans were basically ignorant of what goes on in the United States. A few weeks after the Enron scandal Mexicans overwhelmingly applied pressure on the government to quell any thought of privatizing the Comision Federal de Electricidad. In the municipalidad where I live, the presidente ignored his promises to fix the streets---the electorate recalled him and threw the entire city hall staff out to the street.

Try and bribe a highway patrolman (Federal de Caminos Y Puentes) and you will find yourself in jail. Astonished Americans and Canadians caught at federal retenes with firearms, learned that bribes of even thousands of dollars went unheeded but not ignored---additional charges of attempt to bribe an official were heaped onto the list of charges.

The Mexican Ejercito Y Armada, are not highly trained bloodied combat veterans of foreign conflict. Most foot soldiers are paid about eighty-dollars a month. How forlorn these kids are when they are required to man an outpost in the pitch black of night far from assistance.

Mexicanos aren't satisfied that their embattled police and military are all-they-can-be. Do not confuse stoicism with satisfaction. Mexicans want drugs and violence to leave their country the sooner the better.

And just like everywhere else, there are Mexicans that will be hostile toward Americanos until such time as they get to meet one or more and get to know them. How fortunate we are to have Mexicans as our neighbors to the south.

redmesa - 7-16-2008 at 07:05 PM

I am sorry but DuH????

palmeto99 - 7-16-2008 at 07:16 PM

Everytime you pay a fine in cash to the federal police you are giving a bribe to that officer. I paid a $50.00 cash fine on June 18th to a fed for speeding just outside Loreto because he did not want me to go to the station as I requested. Do you think he was kind enough to turn the fine in for me.. I am curious as to which mexicans lobbied after the enron scandal and whom they lobbied .?Did they travel by bus or call their reps. at their offices. Come on and get real... Nice post but it does not ring true on a lot of levels.

[Edited on 7-17-2008 by palmeto99]

[Edited on 7-17-2008 by palmeto99]

redmesa - 7-16-2008 at 07:24 PM

you are a guest of a country so it is important that you " go along to get along? as you would in many countries in the world.

palmeto99 - 7-16-2008 at 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by redmesa
you are a guest of a country so it is important that you " go along to get along? as you would in many countries in the world.

So explain what that means to you if you would.

Thanks :cool:

redmesa - 7-16-2008 at 07:27 PM

I can not say enough you are a GUEST! So do whatever!

palmeto99 - 7-16-2008 at 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by redmesa
I can not say enough you are a GUEST! So do whatever!

What????

I Think You Are Missing His Point

Gypsy Jan - 7-16-2008 at 07:40 PM

Ten years living full time in Baja Norte and I have witnessed the change that is the point of the this thread.

I have never been "shaken down" or intimidated to provide a bribe.

My appearance and license plate on my car are visibly gringo, but I always approach people as people, without attitude, and show respect to representatives of authority.

I've told this story more than once, but I guess it's worth repeating.

Eight years ago, I left my purse on the floor of a restaurant in Puerto Nuevo. It was stuffed with money and credit cards (Christmas time). The next morning, we returned to the restaurant and my purse was returned to me, in a sealed plastic bag. I wasn't allowed to tip the waiter that served us.

So, we had dinner there later that week, requesting the same waiter, and left a significant tip, along with our thanks.

Baja and Mexico is changing. The old fashioned corruption system on all the levels is being addressed. How quickly and how efficiently is another subject for debate, but there is a new generation of very proud and well educated professionals who are dedicated to forging a new future.

redmesa - 7-16-2008 at 07:42 PM

Weird but I did not post the response given. " So do whatever"
That is not me.

redmesa - 7-16-2008 at 07:45 PM

Some one is corrupting my comments!

Bruce R Leech - 7-16-2008 at 07:46 PM

davidre some of us are Mexican and some are immigrants and some of us have been here a long time :light:

CaboRon - 7-16-2008 at 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by redmesa
I can not say enough you are a GUEST! So do whatever!

redmesa - 7-16-2008 at 08:04 PM

HUMMM??

redmesa - 7-16-2008 at 08:06 PM

So I am not sure what I am saying? I just wanted to say we are guests in Mexico unless we are immigrants or citizens so whateveranyone thinks or feels beyond that is mute!

redmesa - 7-16-2008 at 08:17 PM

Compared to the way the U.s.a. deals with unauthorized immigrants and residents ..... need I say more? We would not be allowed into Mexico!

palmeto99 - 7-16-2008 at 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by redmesa
Compared to the way the U.s.a. deals with unauthorized immigrants and residents ..... need I say more? We would not be allowed into Mexico!

The Mexican government have a zero tolerance on illegal immigration to Mexico.They catch you working without permits and you are gone..Its that simple. They also make it very hard to be legal to work in Mexico and there is no comparison as to how the US treats illegals in the states. Check out how they use the Mexican army to stop the migrant workers on the southern Mexican border. I have run several companies in Mexico and the hoops and graft required are insane. Most people on this board who are on nonworking fm2s and fm3s do not have a clue about how hard the immigration dept is on working Americans.
It will make for a great topic in the future.. :cool:

redmesa - 7-16-2008 at 08:58 PM

Lets think how hard is it for a Mexican to do busines in Amerikak?

Bajaboy - 7-16-2008 at 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by redmesa
Lets think how hard is it for a Mexican to do busines in Amerikak?

Plenty of Mexicans doing business here in San Diego. I suppose it can't be that difficult. Plenty of Mexicans living in TJ and crossing the border to work in San Diego, too. I don't know that many Americans working in TJ. I think it's a bit more difficult for an American to work in Mexico. In fact, I know it is.

Zac

805gregg - 7-16-2008 at 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidre
I am pretty new to the Baja Nomad board.

This is well said, the rest is BS.

[Edited on 7-17-2008 by 805gregg]

Sharksbaja - 7-16-2008 at 09:44 PM

I think a lot of gringos drag anomocity towards Mexicans south with them. I think that Americans believe that assimilated(if that's possible) immigrants are loyal and equal in citizen status.
You know , like the old "double menu" ploy used extensively in Baja. It shows a loyalty and double standard.
Could we ever get away with that in the U.S.? Hmm, now I wonder if that ain't happenin' up here with as well with the Mexicans.
Case in point: I see very few Mexicans in America eating in American owned establishments yet they eat out quite a bit.
These same people expect those same Americans to keep their own restaurant coffers full. :fire:

So you see the loyalty(special price) issue extends waaaay past the border. Just don't be some gringo expecting a fair shake, on either side of the border.

I smell something fishy..

fulano - 7-16-2008 at 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by redmesa
you are a guest of a country so it is important that you " go along to get along? as you would in many countries in the world.

I agree, it would not be polite to hold protests, disrupt the flow of traffic, or boycott businesses in a country where one is a guest. As a matter of fact, it would be illegal for a foreigner to do that in Mexico.

palmeto99 - 7-17-2008 at 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fulano

Quote:

Originally posted by redmesa
you are a guest of a country so it is important that you " go along to get along? as you would in many countries in the world.

Great point Fulano. The double standard is alive and well in Mexico. Try getting out your american flags and protest march in Mexico and see what happens to you. :cool:

Hooker33 - 7-17-2008 at 08:01 AM

Redmesa. Amerikak??? Is your spelling some kind of Canadian put down to our country? Maybe you should find some other way to Baja so you would not have to travel through our terrible country.

Bruce R Leech - 7-17-2008 at 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hooker33
Redmesa. Amerikak??? Is your spelling some kind of Canadian put down to our country? Maybe you should find some other way to Baja so you would not have to travel through our terrible country.

maybe I'm dumb but I cannot figure out what you are trying to say here :?:

vgabndo - 7-17-2008 at 11:08 AM

Redmesa...Amerikak, in my judgment, coming from a Canadian would best be left a "mute" (sic) point.

Semper Fi

preston - 7-17-2008 at 01:46 PM

I've been doing business throughout Mexico for almost 20 years. The fundamental "problems" I see in Mexico are:

1) Corruption. Corruption is pervasive throughout the entire country and economy ... and at all levels. Yes, you can point out isolated cases of corruption in the USA, but it is EASILY 100 times worse in Mexico ... top to bottom.

2) Culture/Work Ethic. I have several Mexicans who work for my company. When we have a "one man" job to be done, Mexicans would much rather do the job with their "amigo" ... even if it means splitting the amount they will earn. Americans will usually (not always) take the job alone and keep all the money.

3) Bureaucracy. Even the Mexican managers who work for my company are surprised by the level of bureaucracy in the Mexican Government.

I call these "problems" with quotes ... because some will see them as differences and not problems .... but I can tell you for sure that these "problems" are what keep me paying my technicians in Mexico $10,000 USD per year ... they just flat out are not as productive as they could be if they did not have these "problems".

Some will say money is not the almighty God to Mexicans ... fine ... but don't complain when your schools suck, your roads are like crap, and your politicians and judges screw you (steal your oil money).

Do you know what the minimum wage is in Mexico: $4 PER DAY!!

Many that consider these "problems" ... come to the USA illegally. I say, give them a guest worker permit, no Government Benefits ... and WELCOME!!!

Barry A. - 7-17-2008 at 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by preston
I've been doing business throughout Mexico for almost 20 years. The fundamental "problems" I see in Mexico are:

1) Corruption. Corruption is pervasive throughout the entire country and economy ... and at all levels. Yes, you can point out isolated cases of corruption in the USA, but it is EASILY 100 times worse in Mexico ... top to bottom.

2) Culture/Work Ethic. I have several Mexicans who work for my company. When we have a "one man" job to be done, Mexicans would much rather do the job with their "amigo" ... even if it means splitting the amount they will earn. Americans will usually (not always) take the job alone and keep all the money.

3) Bureaucracy. Even the Mexican managers who work for my company are surprised by the level of bureaucracy in the Mexican Government.

I call these "problems" with quotes ... because some will see them as differences and not problems .... but I can tell you for sure that these "problems" are what keep me paying my technicians in Mexico $10,000 USD per year ... they just flat out are not as productive as they could be if they did not have these "problems".

Some will say money is not the almighty God to Mexicans ... fine ... but don't complain when your schools suck, your roads are like crap, and your politicians and judges screw you (steal your oil money).

Do you know what the minimum wage is in Mexico: $4 PER DAY!!

Many that consider these "problems" ... come to the USA illegally. I say, give them a guest worker permit, no Government Benefits ... and WELCOME!!!

YES------RIGHT ON!!!!! Barry

CaboRon - 7-17-2008 at 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
Redmesa...Amerikak, in my judgment, coming from a Canadian would best be left a "mute" (sic) point.

Semper Fi

The sic was correct, the spelling is "moot"

CaboRon - 7-17-2008 at 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by palmeto99

Quote:

Originally posted by fulano

Quote:

Originally posted by redmesa
you are a guest of a country so it is important that you " go along to get along? as you would in many countries in the world.

Great point Fulano. The double standard is alive and well in Mexico. Try getting out your american flags and protest march in Mexico and see what happens to you. :cool:

The double standard IS alive and well in Mexico ...

palmeto99 - 7-17-2008 at 07:29 PM

This Canadian women is typical of the Canadians I know that have the I am better attitude of the Canadians. Hows that indian problem working out for them up there above the 49th. They are so out of this world. Where is Black Creek BC. I still own property in Rock Creek .BC but have never heard of Black Creek,BC. :cool:

Which he clearly knew from the "sic"

thebajarunner - 7-17-2008 at 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
Redmesa...Amerikak, in my judgment, coming from a Canadian would best be left a "mute" (sic) point.

Semper Fi

The sic was correct, the spelling is "moot"

and which subtle nuance you completely missed.

too bad, actually...