BajaNomad - WHAT DO YOU THINK OF BAJA?

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF BAJA?

shari - 7-22-2008 at 02:27 PM

Lately many posts have preached about what others THINK Nomads feel about Baja...maybe we should ask them personally. So all of you, whether you live here or just visit, what do you think of Baja....just to set the record straight...do you love it with all it's faults, do you wecome positive changes(albeit slow ones), do you wish it was more like the states, are you fed up and leaving or afraid to visit?

Taco de Baja - 7-22-2008 at 02:43 PM

Don't want it to change.
Selfish reasons, I liked it better when it was "undiscovered" and there were less people.

I also dislike the influx of the drug cartels.

Diver - 7-22-2008 at 02:55 PM

That's a question that needs more than one answer for me.

Some things I would hate to see change at all;
Like the wonderfully friendly, helpful and generous attitude of the people of Bahia Asuncion and other Baja places we have been fortunate enough to visit.

In other things I would not mind a positive change if done correctly and without detrement to those who live there such as, better water, sewer, power, phone, health and internet services.

We bought our place in Baja for ownership in a part of our "dream".
It's place we love to be and hope to continue to enjoy despite any differences with things US.

Although we appreciate life in the US, we look for more and better .....
If Baja WAS very much like the US, why would we go ?
Why did we leave our city/suburb upbringings to go west ?
Why do we always look for more to see and learn ?
Why do we travel as often as we can ?
We are Nomads !

All change, good and bad, has its consequences.
Whatever the outcome, I hope nothing changes TOO fast !

Hope that answers your question ! :biggrin:

flyfishinPam - 7-22-2008 at 03:06 PM

No vote i don't fit into the options.

my baja-

my office is the marina I see every sunrise
my daughter was born in loreto, we paid the doctor 500 pesos and a case of tecate at the centro de salud
my son was born at home i delivered him myself but the midwife who arrived late charged 600 pesos and a pint of rum
my kids are safe here
i just picked mangoes out in back of my indoor office
everyone in town knows me and my family
on thursday i'll start work at 3am, send out over a dozen boats, go out fishing myeslf and its so good now that i'll be back my noon, deliver frozen fillets in our freezer to the happy guys leaving on th next flight to LA at 1pm and maybe i'll post a report if i feel like it
i have no boss
we can eat chocolate clams whenever we want
my kids ride the bow of the boat with dolphins regurarly
we can ride in the back of a pickup
we can have an all night party and the police will only come to join us
fish tacos
cactus
critters
lone beaches

:yes:

Cypress - 7-22-2008 at 03:12 PM

flyfishinPam, :yes:

Baja is one sweet place for all the things you mentioned and a few others you didn't. :yes:

jorgie - 7-22-2008 at 03:14 PM

no vote again, change will come buts lets let Mexicans do the changing at the speed they can afford and the type of change they need and desire.
My vote is limited to my country.

redmesa - 7-22-2008 at 03:17 PM

It is not just Mexico that is changing.
I think the other two nations on this continent are going to have to suck it up as they suffer the changes being wrought by years of corporate greed and personal indulgence.
Change is the one true constant but I hope it comes gently to us all and not as Mao stated or in the imperialistic way "at the point of a gun".
Or who said "the more things change the more they stay the same"?
I think I have a changing mind.

I do think Juan could be a little more open to Canadian beer.

tripledigitken - 7-22-2008 at 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
No vote i don't fit into the options.

my baja-

my office is the marina I see every sunrise
my daughter was born in loreto, we paid the doctor 500 pesos and a case of tecate at the centro de salud
my son was born at home i delivered him myself but the midwife who arrived late charged 600 pesos and a pint of rum
my kids are safe here
i just picked mangoes out in back of my indoor office
everyone in town knows me and my family
on thursday i'll start work at 3am, send out over a dozen boats, go out fishing myeslf and its so good now that i'll be back my noon, deliver frozen fillets in our freezer to the happy guys leaving on th next flight to LA at 1pm and maybe i'll post a report if i feel like it
i have no boss
we can eat chocolate clams whenever we want
my kids ride the bow of the boat with dolphins regurarly
we can ride in the back of a pickup
we can have an all night party and the police will only come to join us
fish tacos
cactus
critters
lone beaches

:yes:

Pam,

You just put a big smile on my face. Thanks!

Ken

Phony Poll

memo - 7-22-2008 at 03:26 PM

Ask yourself these questions.

1. Do we need a computer to take part in your poll?

2. Do we need internet access?

Call me nuts, but I say both of those wonderful creations are the direct result of "Americanization".

Here's another poll suggestion, "Now that we have taken exactly what we want from America, enabling us to offer and take part in this poll, how much more do we want?"

1. Satellite TV capabilities?

2. Satellite telephone capabilites?

3. Online banking?

4. ATM machines?

5. More tourists taking advantage of wonderful beaches and all those items listed above?

You get my point, I hope. It's all about what we want to take from America and when we have it it's time to draw the line. I'd call that small minded, petty and hypocritical. Otherwise, a great poll.

palmeto99 - 7-22-2008 at 03:31 PM

I agree, its a poll for Sherri and her neighbors to make some noise with. More filler for the board. :cool:

Baja is the Mexican people. Love them or leave!

Lee - 7-22-2008 at 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by memo
Ask yourself these questions.

Hey shari -- great poll. By the way, I used coconuts attached to string to get my vote counted.

memo? blah blah blah. Can't stop preaching, can you? Why are you here?

(May respond at the memo fatigue thread. This thread isn't about you. Sorry.)

tripledigitken - 7-22-2008 at 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by palmeto99
I agree, its a poll for Sherri and her neighbors to make some noise with. More filler for the board. :cool:

149 (edit 156) posts in 7 days makes you an authority on filler that's a fact!

:lol:

Ken

[Edited on 7-22-2008 at 4:50pm by tripledigitken for accuracy in reporting palmeto's post count]

[Edited on 7-22-2008 by tripledigitken]

Paula - 7-22-2008 at 03:38 PM

I voted "don't want change". The responses above are all so good that I'm left speechless!

We might do another poll to deal with the second answer, asking which changes would be considered positive.

I had only read as far as redmesa's post before I posted! I'd better learn to type/think faster!!

[Edited on 7-22-2008 by Paula]

shari - 7-22-2008 at 03:50 PM

Memo: I truly do not understand why you would call my poll phoney...It's my poll and I am truly interested in what Nomads actually think...not what you SAY they think. Advances in technology are world wide and we are fortunate they have come to baja so I can send my daughter money for college without having to drive for 3 hours on a bad road (which is improving). I am just interested to see how many Nomads love this place and how many are getting fed up as you are and how many won't come for fear of violence, corruption etc...I truly want to get a better understanding.
Palmeto: Why is this a poll for me and my neighbours?...who by the way..I don't have any...did I say only my amigos can respond????

memo - 7-22-2008 at 04:00 PM

Shari, I am beginning to think you are a real, genuine America hater. You deny the internet, the satellite you use to get there, and the computer you use are not only American inventions but american property? Why is it so hard for you to accept that America has made your life in Baja much better? And why is it that you, who last month got your Mexican citizenship, now speak for the Mexican people?

palmeto99 - 7-22-2008 at 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken

Quote:

Originally posted by palmeto99
I agree, its a poll for Sherri and her neighbors to make some noise with. More filler for the board. :cool:

149 posts in 7 days makes you an authority on filler that's a fact!

:lol:

Ken

KEN,

I am trying to get up to your numbers. I am only half a man on this board until I do.... :cool:

BajaWarrior - 7-22-2008 at 04:06 PM

I voted for welcoming positive change but at the same time I do like it just the way it is (or was).

Our little slice of heaven is a lot differant than most communities in Baja as it is 99% American, not that there is anything wrong with that! We occasionally go to town (25 miles away), and we do make our beer, gas and taco stops along the way, but like most of my neighbors, we're most comfortable spending a long weekend in our community.

The fact that we are not full-timers does hinder our ability to blend more with the locals, but that day will just have to wait...

Thanks Shari for the poll. I hope you don't get too beat up by all the sour grapes on this board!

Taco de Baja - 7-22-2008 at 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by memo
Ask yourself these questions.

1. Do we need a computer to take part in your poll?

2. Do we need internet access?

Call me nuts, but I say both of those wonderful creations are the direct result of "Americanization".

Here's another poll suggestion, "Now that we have taken exactly what we want from America, enabling us to offer and take part in this poll, how much more do we want?"

1. Satellite TV capabilities?

2. Satellite telephone capabilites?

3. Online banking?

4. ATM machines?

5. More tourists taking advantage of wonderful beaches and all those items listed above?

I go to Baja to get away from all that cr*p
No electricity, and our neighbors are the coyotes, sea gulls, dolphins, seals, and pelicans.
All I need is an ice chest full of beer, a beach, and a fishing pole...3 weeks and counting, Ill be there

shari - 7-22-2008 at 04:12 PM

What makes you think I'm a yankee hater? Some of my best friends live in the states...I absolutely LOVE some americans and think it is an amazing country. I never denied how americans have made our life more comfortable with their genius...thank you americans for making my life so wonderful....I really appreciate it...sorry I didn't tell you sooner. But there are many things about the USA I don not like as well as with mexico and canada and lots of other places...so??? so what. PLease take note all NOmads....I DO NOT HATE ALL AMERICANS!!!! and never intended to for anyone to think I do....forgive me if I gave that impression. It's just that people who aren't from the USA don't always agree with americans on some issues. I am proud to be Canadian/Mexican....mostly proud that I was brought up to be polite, caring, tolerant and non judgemental...and NOT to be an arrogant, insulting, know it all person.
I speak from the heart...sometimes for the people who surround me in our home to try to get their ideas across as well as my own in order to provide another point of view other than the "gringo" opinion.

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-22-2008 at 04:17 PM

gibson - 7-22-2008 at 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
What makes you think I'm a yankee hater?

please refrain from the Y word. Most derogatory for some of us!

Diver - 7-22-2008 at 04:37 PM

Shari,

WE know why you're here and what you're about.
You're generosity in sharing your world and helping some of us find a place there is worth more than words.
The fact that you are trying to make a living does not make you anything but human.

No need to reply to the likes of Memo and Palm99;
if you told them you wear white socks they would attack you for that;
if you told them you wore no socks ......

They're just in it for the controvery.
I vote that we quit responding to them at all.

vacaenbaja - 7-22-2008 at 05:21 PM

I think that a lot has to do with the changes that modernity brings about. In the USA if we want to get away from it all we would go out to "the country" where life is simpler slower etc. Modern times has greatly impringed on this outlet. Yosemite while still very attactive has reservations that need to be made to camp. The same for most beach area campgrounds during the summer.
I think that Baja has long had the same appeal coupled with
its vast richness in its less spoiled natural resources. You can camp on the beach, or in the mountains with or with out the crowds. The people are nice and in the smaller towns the pace is much slower. For the most part no reservations needed. But as fences go up and developement occurs this
type of baja freedom will eventually be gone. I guess we have to enjoy what we have while we still have it.

Yes, especially derogatory

Bajajack - 7-22-2008 at 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gibson

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
What makes you think I'm a yankee hater?

please refrain from the Y word. Most derogatory for some of us!

for us Confederate folks.

Viva Mexico! Viva La Gente!

Lee - 7-22-2008 at 05:37 PM

I voted for positive change though I accept negativeness will be around. I sail through Baja within a white bubble, protected from all harm, seeking justice while striking fear in the heart of bandidos. I am ZorroLee

I will now, and after I receive my Mexican citizenship in 4 years, march in the Pack of Positive Change, assisting where I can, lending a hand when asked, and always expressing gratitude for the Mexican gente.

_________________

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
Memo: I truly do not understand why you would call my poll phoney...It's my poll and I am truly interested in what Nomads actually think...not what you SAY they think.

shari -- this NUT is trying to sabotage this thread -- maybe didn't get Doug's message before the thread was closed down.

People here who know you or of you know you are squared away, don't HATE gringoes, love Juan, are Mexicana through-and-through, y habla por la corazon.

SDRonni - 7-22-2008 at 05:57 PM

I'll admit it. I'm one of those who purchased an oceanfront condo in North Rosarito Beach for us, not for speculation. We have visited Baja for years, but at this time in our lives, we welcome the "creature comforts" and "security" that we thought high-rise living in Baja would provide. And to be able to do all that AND enjoy Baja is our dream. I know that's not "rustic" enough for many of you, but we really hope(d) to spend many of our golden years drinking margaritas on that balcony overlooking the Coronado Islands, and sharing that with our family and friends, with the comfort that we could get "home" if need be. Now many of those family and friends are fearful to visit us there. Yes, bad things happen in the U.S. Yes, some of the news reports are probably sensationalized. And, frankly, yes, we are now questioning our choice. So, I for one, welcome any positive change.....security, water, safety.............

palmeto99 - 7-22-2008 at 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SDRonni
I'll admit it. I'm one of those who purchased an oceanfront condo in North Rosarito Beach for us, not for speculation. We have visited Baja for years, but at this time in our lives, we welcome the "creature comforts" and "security" that we thought high-rise living in Baja would provide. And to be able to do all that AND enjoy Baja is our dream. I know that's not "rustic" enough for many of you, but we really hope(d) to spend many of our golden years drinking margaritas on that balcony overlooking the Coronado Islands, and sharing that with our family and friends, with the comfort that we could get "home" if need be. Now many of those family and friends are fearful to visit us there. Yes, bad things happen in the U.S. Yes, some of the news reports are probably sensationalized. And, frankly, yes, we are now questioning our choice. So, I for one, welcome any positive change.....security, water, safety.............

I think that you just spoke for alot of folks on this board who have invested considerable funds in housing only to see the Mexican authorities drop the ball on these important issues.
I must warn you my friend, there many on this board that live on the beach in palapas or cinderblock shacks and do not care about those who have invested more than just time in Mexico. .... :cool:

shari - 7-22-2008 at 06:55 PM

ooops sorry gibson...I truly had no idea that Yankee was considered derogatory either...not being american...(I didn't use that word as it may be used for all of us on this continent) I shall refrain from using the Y word again as I would not want to insult anyone here....it's just that united states citizens is such a long phrase to use.
I have a little anecdote for you all...once a good amiga from New Orleans came to visit me in GN with her black, united states citizen boyfriend. At our favorite taco stand, the taco cook greeted him with a big warm smile and said....Que onda guero! He asked what it meant and we told him it was an affectionate term for white guy...well, he got steamed over that and insulted....so I told the cook he didn't like it so he said...Okay...que onda negro...well this didn't go over very well either and he ranted and raved about how ignorant the mexicans were and stomped off. We all just looked at each other and burst out laughing because all of us knew that it was said in jest...and had absoutely NO malice or insult intended...it was humor...mexican style.
Hey, I try not to get my thong in a knot when many folks here bash canadians....so chill amigos...I love you all who are honorable, tolerant, polite, understanding, honest, nice human beings wherever you were born.
Viva good guys!

Sharksbaja - 7-22-2008 at 07:05 PM

Shari, I like your frank and straightforward answer. I was somewhat surprised you lifted a finger to explain your take. I doubt seriously that it mattered to the intended audience however, but good on you anyhoo!

I would rather see Mexicans develop more but disposable income in North America and elsewhere has been the dominate force building in the smaller towns and suburbs. Hell, they(Mexicans) sold the gosh darnn property when the gov't gave them permission, place the blame on them.

Does not all this investment personal & commercial add to the gross value of Baja, and Mexico as a whole?

One more thing. Palmnut, WTF do you know about anyones investment in time and money in Baja.
Let's face it, you go after anyone that seems to have it better than you. And that ain't sayin' much!! :lol:

fishbuck - 7-22-2008 at 07:12 PM

Baja needs more Ladies Bars, more fish and more beer! And more fish! And more me!

Memo and Palmetto

The Gull - 7-23-2008 at 05:40 AM

Plainly miscreants. :yes:

CaboRon - 7-23-2008 at 06:04 AM

Shari,

I am not offended by the term "Yank"

It is a term first used in revolutionary times in the protest song "Yanky Doodle"

And in a Grand Version inspired by a British Army surgeon,
George M. Cohen wrote,

"I'm a Yanky Doodle Dandy, born on the Fourth of July"

It was a most afficinate term used by our dear allies the "Brits" .....

Signed,
A "Yank" and proud of it,

CaboRon

Cypress - 7-23-2008 at 06:13 AM

Being born and raised in Mississippi, I'd rather not be referred to as a "Yankee".

Baja reminds me of parts of the south not too many years ago.

Enjoy it while it lasts.

capt. mike - 7-23-2008 at 06:22 AM

i didn't discover the baja.....sorry again Jaime....
until 1980 when i flew south to then unspoiled Cabo the 1st time stopping along the way to marvel at all the adventure i could create thanks to the utility of private aircraft. i was severely smitten and made all things baja my new hobby. books, maps, posters, guides, trinkets, memorabilia - it was endless.

that was a long time a go.
seen a lot of changes and talked to numerous friends who have much more time south than i.
from what i have gathered from them i really missed out on the 70s and baja then.

you can't go home again.

ephemeral.

k-rico - 7-23-2008 at 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gibson

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
What makes you think I'm a yankee hater?

please refrain from the Y word. Most derogatory for some of us!

Go Yankees, only 3.5 games out of first place.

yankees.jpg - 6kB

oldlady - 7-23-2008 at 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Go Yankees, only 3.5 games out of first place.

Allright! Now we got some good stuff on this board! I've been a faithful fan of the Bronx Bombers since I was six. I get such a kick out of seeing a young boy in Mexico with a Yankee cap!

comitan - 7-23-2008 at 08:07 AM

Well just spent the last 2 days on a beautiful Baja beach fishing and diving just starting all over again discovering our love of the Baja. :bounce:

Martyman - 7-23-2008 at 08:48 AM

More fishbuck comments!! but...(there's always a but) you forgot tequila!
I really enjoyed fly fishin' pams comments. Riding in the back of pickups... it's my birthday and I'm in dreamland.

Bajajorge - 7-23-2008 at 08:51 AM

I don't want Baja to change, but some positive change is also good, but then again who needs another California? :no:

Skipjack Joe - 7-23-2008 at 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Don't want it to change.
Selfish reasons, I liked it better when it was "undiscovered" and there were less people.

Ditto.

A crowded, 'improved' baja just isn't baja any more. When baja becomes like the states there won't be any reason to go there any more.

After a lot of soul searching I've decided I want it with all of it's 'deficiencies'.

Pstreet1 - 7-23-2008 at 06:16 PM

Very interesting question. Compared to some of you, we're newcomers: we've owned here for 10 years. I'm amazed at the changes I've seen: 4 lane free road almost to Puerto Neuvo, movie theater with stadium seating in Rosarito, Home Depot in Rosarito, Applebee's coming to Rosarito. I like the road, and it will make summer traffic easier to handle; I liked seeing Batman without crossing the border to do it; I like access to Home Depot, but generally, local hardware stores are better to use and help the local population considerably more; Applebee's? ? All of that is Americanization, obviously. Do I enjoy it? Yes. Has it cost some of the charm that was here 10 years ago? Yes.

However, I think it's important that Americans who frequent Baja separate "cheap" from "charm." It's clear that the standard of living for Mexicans in the Rosarito area is rising; we see more and more of a middle class. That's wonderful--but prices in the area are rapidly changing. Our favorite restaurant charged $8.00 for bacon wrapped, stuffed shrimp 10 years ago. Now, they charge $17.95. The restaurant is the same as it always was; the people are just as friendly; are they making more money? I hope so. I see new housing areas that are clearly being marketed to Mexicans that are clearly middle class. That's a wonderful side benefit of American money in the area. Does this middle class population have the same "charm" they did 10 years ago? Yes, if you are talking about friendliness to those who accept them as equals. No if the price change makes a difference to the visitor.

Security concerns many because of the American press and its treatment of anything that happens south of the border. All I can say is that we have a home in the U.S.; we'd be there if we felt threatened here. Instead, we're here well over half the year--last year we were in Rosarito all but 3 mts. of the year, and this year is looking like a match. We don't feel threatened.

We love Baja and its people; we love the time we spend here. If our presence makes life better for Mexicans in our area, maybe they will continue to welcome us. We hope so.

Iflyfish - 7-23-2008 at 10:38 PM

See Erick Berne, M.D. The game Blemish

http://www.scribd.com/doc/238124/Eric-Berne-Games-People-Pla...

Iflyfish

Skipjack Joe - 7-23-2008 at 11:54 PM

Iflyfish,

These games all seem to be so negative. Aren't there positive social interactions that have been labeled as 'games'?

Iflyfish - 7-24-2008 at 08:33 AM

Skipjack: Astute observation and why I posted the link. One can analyse the exchanges one reads in a thread using this schema. Berne considered himself to be a Social Psychiatrist, interested in the interactions between people hence the name for his theories of personality and school of therapy called Transactional Analysis. Berne was really a Populist Psychoanalyst and a keen observer of human behavior.

Berne postulated that there are limited ways of structuring time, that which lies between waking and sleeping. He said that all of our social behavior is structured to acquire stroking (units of human recognition). He said that this behavior exists in a hierarchy and that as one ascends the hierarchy that one acquires more stroking. The hierarchy:

Intimacy involves emotional closeness, deep sharing, realness, support, caring, as well as intimate sex. He believed that people have, based on their developmental experiences, differing beliefs about the possibility of having intimacy in their lives. Some believe you cannot have it a lot, some say you can have it once, others say never. He said that these beliefs affect our comfort with and behavior that seeks intimacy. If we can't have intimacy, which provides the most stroking we will engage in Games.

Games are a predictable series of transactions in which someone ends up with bad feelings. They are played by degree: First Degree: minor discomfort, Second Degree: social disruption, Third Degree: tissue damage. Berne identified these games and labeled them and described their stroke value. Games end in emotion and therefore stroking. Someone does get hurt. Negative stroking has the same value as positive stroking...watch a child who wants you to play with them…you ignore and they will escalate, eventually getting you to get angry with them and they then get their strokes. Strokes are necessary for survival.

Activities are shared experiences of doing something together: fishing, dancing, playing cards, skiing etc, sharing meals etc. These are pleasurable activities that provide stroking.

Pastimes: Talking about the weather, taxes, how wonderful or awful someone or something is. The most popular is talking about the weather. Fisherman can talk for hours about the catch, lures, favorite holes etc. ditto for divers, birders, car people etc.

Rituals: are predictable exchanges between people that are pleasant and predictable; they involve the exchange of stroking i.e. “Hola” – “Hola”, a one stroke exchange, or if we have not seen someone in a long time, “Hola” – “Hola”, “K Paso” – “Mucho trabajo e poco denaro” etc. These can be very simple single stroke exchanges or as complex and strung out as a Japanese Tea Ceremony.

Withdrawal: disengagement from other people where all the stroking is internal. “Aren’t I wonderful, virtuous, handsome, smart, talented, awful, ugly, terrible, unlovable, etc.” These internal conversations occur on an ongoing basis and provide internal stroking.

That’s a summary and your observation that games involve pain is very astute. There is always an emotional payoff from games and for some these feelings are bad feelings.

Games are always played by assuming one of three Psychological Roles:

Rescuer: (Not the ones with red crosses, these are people who are always trying to help you, even if you don’t need it)

Victim: (Not the sort that has a big bolder fall on them but people who assume the one down position and feel that the world, other people etc. have given them the shaft or treat them unfairly. These folks often feel entitled to others indulgence because of their victim status. The Victim position is the most powerful; ever try to cheer up a person who is determined to feel bad?

Persecutor: (Not the District Attorney) but the one who is always trying to play “gotcha!” This is the person who unmasks your inadequacy, kicks you, berates you etc.

Games are played by assuming one of the Psychological Roles above and then switching to one of the other roles. I will give you an example. Someone tries to help you with something you do not want help with, they see you as a victim to be rescued, you play along for a while but don’t do what they want you to do and then they get angry and kick you and say “I am only trying to help!” The games starts with the Rescuer identifying a Victim, tries to rescue them and then switches to Persecutor when they feel Victimized by the initial victim not doing what they told them to do. See all the emotionality, intensity and stroking in this exchange. This is why Games are so compelling for those who play them. Games provide a lot of stroking, much more than Withdrawal, Rituals, Pastimes or Activities.

These dynamics are universal; you will see them all around you if you are looking. It can be very helpful to identify games if one is to avoid taking the pay off for them.

Iflyfish

Rescue me! Come on and rescue me ...

Skipjack Joe - 7-24-2008 at 09:54 AM

Right now I'm feeling sorry for Dr. Berne. Imagine going through life and seeing all social interactions as game playing. Going to a party and seeing this extra dimension as you talk to people.

Is anything done without that? Does anyone do good things in the boy scout or Christian way, things done for the sake of goodness, without playing the role of rescuer?

Rescuer. I kind of like that role. It's kind of like 'hero' but with the wrong reasons.

I've noticed a recent trend in my postings that may indicate some kind of a game going on. I'm not sure. Take the 'baja improvement' subject. I have mixed feelings about it. If I read a thread where people (shari, for example) overwhelmingly post about it's positive aspects (e.g. Mexican men make better husbands) I'll give examples of the opposite. And when a thread comes up where people want baja 'improvements' I'll bring up how it seemed better before. I see others switching sides like that also. What does it mean?

Yesterday I read one of Diane's threads on the kids of Asuncion. I have always supported these kind of threads as being very positive. But suddenly I had an urge to post one saying how 'sappy' it's all becoming. The kids on their bicycles, that is. Fortunately my better judgement took over and I'm still friends with Diane (even after this post, I hope).

There you have it. The contrariness for it's own sake, it appears.

I would never have made a good psychologist. Imagine never being able to get righteously mad at something without trying to understand it?

shari - 7-24-2008 at 10:17 AM

very interesting game playing....I agree with skipjack but just wanted to comment on your example of my posts...perhaps it was just an example but I have never said that mexican men make good husbands...in fact, I would have to disagree with that...Juan is special and not the run of the mill esposo...just to clarify. I didn't realize most of my posts were positive...maybe becasue positive things outweigh the negative in our life...I have posted negative stuff like on the elections, road work, bad weather, problems with builders etc....but on the whole I am becoming more mexicana and complain less and less as I learn tolerance and understanding.

DianaT - 7-24-2008 at 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Yesterday I read one of Diane's threads on the kids of Asuncion. I have always supported these kind of threads as being very positive. But suddenly I had an urge to post one saying how 'sappy' it's all becoming. The kids on their bicycles, that is. Fortunately my better judgement took over and I'm still friends with Diane (even after this post, I hope).

Well, I guess we will have to negotiate and debate this "The contrariness for it's own sake, it appears" on our front porch the next time you return to BA. :yes:

Sappy? OK, next time I will fix that. There is a man who obviously dislikes gringos because we don't know him, but everytime we see him, he is quite confrontive. Do you think he would allow me to take his picture to post as an example of a real Bahia Asuncion Jerk? :lol:

We will take the picture right before we go and turn him into our skateboarding policeman, Leri.

Hope to see you soon once again in BA.

Diane

[Edited on 7-24-2008 by jdtrotter]

Iflyfish - 7-24-2008 at 11:34 AM

Skipjack
"Right now I'm feeling sorry for Dr. Berne. Imagine going through life and seeing all social interactions as game playing."

Berne did not see ALL social transactions as game playing, nor all helping as Rescuing. His view was that people engaged in Psychological Games who have a limited hope of having real intimacy in their lives. There is a real need in human beings to provide care and nurturing, as well as to receive it. He saw Psychological Games as antithetical to intimacy and a source of significant pain in human interactions. He advocated stopping games and encouraged intimacy. It can be very helpful to identify games and not take the pay off for them. He encouraged people to be authentic and to have FUN!

Being aware of negative social transactions and learning how not to "play" can be very helpful. I used to teach a course for teenagers on How to Avoid Game Payoffs for Fun and Profit! I would have them practice the skill and art of stopping games i.e. Perp says "you look stupid" a counter might be "glad you noticed me". Rescuer says "oh, you need to take better care of yourself" thereby making you a victim in need of their rescuing, a counter might be "I am starting a new style". Rescuers need victims and will switch to Persecutors when they are at the end of the game. Rescuers ultimately become Victims.

"Does anyone do good things in the boy scout or Christian way, things done for the sake of goodness, without playing the role of rescuer?"

People who have had positive developmental experiences with other people tend to be caring, nurturing people who want to experience the positive strokes that come in the context of exchanging positive interactions with others. Game players have learned to acquire their strokes in different ways. TRescuers MUST have Victims to Rescue, Rescuers to Victimize or Persecutors to feel Victimized by. Lots of drama, drama is not intimacy. Games generate drama. It is healthy and feels good to be generative, loving, caring and want to share good feelings with others.

Some people are positive, generative, caring and loving because they either have had these experiences developmentaly and/or have decided that they wish to see the glass half full and to engage in positive and generative ways with others, choose to spend what little time they have in the world engaged in generative behavior. It's a choice after all.

Glad you asked and I appreciate the generosity, caring and sharing I see exibited by people on this board. There may not be as much drama in giving bikes to kids and showing happy faces, but it can warm ones heart to see and be a part of that! I love seeing pictures of "ordinary life" in Baja. That is very rich indeed. It does not generate as much heat and drama as do drug busts and Cartel shoot outs, but in the long run is more enriching, sort of like eating ones vegitables....can become an acquired taste.

It is also clear that Culture influences our sense of self and our behavior and that is a source of endless fascination for me and part of why Mexcio and this board interests me. Cross cultural exchanges are hard to find and this is one of the values of people on this board who are sharing their experiences of both cultures.

Iflyfishwhennotthinkingtoomuchaboutthehumancondition

Cypress - 7-24-2008 at 12:03 PM

Calling Dr. Freud. :biggrin:

Iflyfish - 7-24-2008 at 12:19 PM

Lencho, well said. Wish I had mastered the simple sentence.

Cypress, Freud called and Berne answered with a Populist Psychoanalysis! His goal was to bring to everyday people an understanding of how to live more freely and genuinely.

Once can apply the concepts elaborated by Berne to better understand the adaptive strategies found in various cultures. Our history and the decisions we make about our experiences affect our sense of self and our sense of our own power to be happy and generative. One can view culture as the product of a series of adaptive strategies developed to address the realities of the place and time of it's origins and events that are adapted to.

Iflyfish - 7-24-2008 at 12:28 PM

The optimism of Americans can be in some ways tied to the fact of our geography, a west to explore and people, oceans that provided protection and independance and an adaptation of optimism etc. On the flip side of this can be found an adaptation of arrogance, entitlement and ethnocentricity that lead to genocide of the native population. Ni Modo in Mexico can be sourced in part to the adaptation to a history of brutal Aztec rule followed by a perhaps more brutal conquest and occupation, followed by a series of despotic rulers and then 75 years of one party rule. If the future is uncertain and one has a feeling of little power to affect it then living for the day serves one well indeed.

IflyfishwhenIdon'thavesomuchtimeonmyhands

Skipjack Joe - 7-24-2008 at 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter

Quote:

Well, I guess we will have to negotiate and debate this "The contrariness for it's own sake, it appears" on our front porch the next time you return to BA. :yes:

We will take the picture right before we go and turn him into our skateboarding policeman, Leri.

Hope to see you soon once again in BA.

Diane

[Edited on 7-24-2008 by jdtrotter]

"[Edited on 7-24-2008 by jdtrotter]" - hmmmm. Not a good sign.

Just to clarify, Diane. I didn't mean that your posts have become sappy. I meant that I felt an urge to go in the opposite direction and call them that. Probably just a desire on my part to 'stand out' in some way, I guess. Or some other reason, who knows. I think I don't want to know at this point in time.

IFlyfish,

I can see how being aware of gameplaying is powerful. I was surprised at the number of games and how subtle they are. I've never liked playing games or people who do so. I'm a big proponent of sincerity. But these are so pervasive and subtle I may be unknowingly doing it too.

[Edited on 7-24-2008 by Skipjack Joe]