BajaNomad

The new fence

Oso - 8-20-2008 at 03:54 PM

Welded steel. Expensive. Aside from the taxpayer expense, the main thing that bothers me is that ain't the border on the other side of it. This stretch runs North-South in Gadsden, AZ about 3 miles north of the Sonora border at San Luis. The Baja border is essentially what's left of the Colorado River about another 3 miles west of this fence. I'm uneasy about access to my favorite dove hunting area just this side of the river. There are also Ag fields on the other side of this fence. There appear to be a few openings for gates and they SAY provisions will be made for farmers and sportsmen. We'll see. There's just something that feels wrong about a "Berlin Wall" INSIDE my own country.

100_0456 (Small).JPG - 48kB

palmeto99 - 8-20-2008 at 04:10 PM

You are worried about your favorite dove hunting area because we have to build a fence to protect our borders from drug terrorists and the like.
I think you might want to update your list of priorities as it pertains to your country. Just a thought.:cool:

Didn't Stalin build a fence??

thebajarunner - 8-20-2008 at 04:34 PM

And wasn't it to keep people apart??

But, no matter how the politics flow I would think long and hard about packing iron through the gate, and then thinking you might get let back in....
Just a thought.

On the other hand, you do have your rights.... right???

rpleger - 8-20-2008 at 04:47 PM

I'm with you OSO...it doesn't seem right to build a fence like that in the United States...it's not the way it should be...

David K - 8-20-2008 at 04:57 PM

Gee... and all because of certain people who think they don't need to enter our country legally, like everyone else...

As for Stalin and others like him:

Communist built walls to keep their people in... it was so bad there.

We build walls to keep people out... it is so good here.

Actually, it is just to keep out law breakers, undocumented types, reduce the introdution of disease and pests, have some control of our country...

tsgarcia69 - 8-20-2008 at 05:11 PM

You should notice there is no fence between the US and Canada, and none is planned. That is because we can rely upon Canada to police their side of the border and watch our backs for us.

People make jokes and complaints here about cheap Canadians and how they are moochers. The reality is that Canada is the strongest ally, and best friend and partner the US has. Canada took a big chance on 9/11 when it let all the international flights that were barred from landing in the US land in Canada. In those first few hours, nobody knew if the attacks on the WTC were an isolated incident or that start of WWIII.

The fence on the southern border is not really to keep illegal immigrants out, per se. It is to keep out drugs and terrorists. Nobody at the Department of Homeland Security is lying awake at night worrying about illegal immigrants looking to get a job plucking chickens at $6.25 per hour. The fence is going up because Mexico is not the partner Canada is.

palmeto99 - 8-20-2008 at 05:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by thebajarunner
And wasn't it to keep people apart??

But, no matter how the politics flow I would think long and hard about packing iron through the gate, and then thinking you might get let back in....
Just a thought.

On the other hand, you do have your rights.... right???



Stalin built the gulags. It was Khrushchev who built the wall in 1961. It was an effort to keep people from escaping the iron curtain. To equate the two walls does a disservice to those who lost their lives trying to escape the east german regime.
We need to keep the drug terrorists out. Its that simple.
As for the immigration issue that gets thrown in for good measure. Give out 5 year green cards on a temporary basis as we require the workers.Its that simple as well.:cool:

Oso - 8-20-2008 at 10:34 PM

One more time for the inattentive; This fence is NOT on the border. It is 3 miles INSIDE the border.

Diver - 8-20-2008 at 11:17 PM

This just in from Newsmadeup.com;

Recent rumours have been confirmed;
White House spokesmen confirmed early today that the proposed 3 mile wide "Borderline Preservation Zone" will be stocked with native birds and used for private hunts by "authorized" parties only.
A 48,000 square foot lodge will be built overlooking former favorite "illegal" crossing spots and is anticipated to cost approximately 146 billion dollars. Spokesman also confirmed that the cost would be added to the National Debt following the printing of sufficient "paper" to overpay contractors and other interested parties.
Additional details will .... not be forthcoming.

Mexitron - 8-21-2008 at 04:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by tsgarcia69
You should notice there is no fence between the US and Canada, and none is planned. That is because we can rely upon Canada to police their side of the border and watch our backs for us.

People make jokes and complaints here about cheap Canadians and how they are moochers. The reality is that Canada is the strongest ally, and best friend and partner the US has. Canada took a big chance on 9/11 when it let all the international flights that were barred from landing in the US land in Canada. In those first few hours, nobody knew if the attacks on the WTC were an isolated incident or that start of WWIII.

The fence on the southern border is not really to keep illegal immigrants out, per se. It is to keep out drugs and terrorists. Nobody at the Department of Homeland Security is lying awake at night worrying about illegal immigrants looking to get a job plucking chickens at $6.25 per hour. The fence is going up because Mexico is not the partner Canada is.


I would guess that drugs will still find their way across the border, despite the fence, as long as demand stays high in the US ( for instance, apparently only a fraction of the trucks that enter the country are inspected). And the 911 terrorists didn't come in across the Mexican border.

Oso - 8-21-2008 at 07:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diver
This just in from Newsmadeup.com;

Recent rumours have been confirmed;
White House spokesmen confirmed early today that the proposed 3 mile wide "Borderline Preservation Zone" will be stocked with native birds and used for private hunts by "authorized" parties only.
A 48,000 square foot lodge will be built overlooking former favorite "illegal" crossing spots and is anticipated to cost approximately 146 billion dollars. Spokesman also confirmed that the cost would be added to the National Debt following the printing of sufficient "paper" to overpay contractors and other interested parties.
Additional details will .... not be forthcoming.


Hmmm, maybe if I can get Cheney to come hunt with me...
On second thought, I think he needs a remedial course in hunter safety. BTW, the area I'm talking about is known as "Hunter's Hole" and the county is planning to invest quite a lot of money in revitalizing it, much as they did with West Wetlands, removing non-native vegetation, planting cottonwoods etc, and developing it into a prime recreational area. It will be interesting to see how they work that out with ICE.

Halboo - 8-21-2008 at 07:49 AM

Crank it up!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZkAoosVLkA

Wingnut - 8-21-2008 at 01:56 PM

We don't need a dang fence. We just need the US government to understand that a worker permit program is a simple and easy solution to illegal immigration. Set up properly, permits could be granted after an applicant applies to the Mexican goverment for a paper that says they are a citizen in good standing (ie: not a convicted felon) with their correct address and Mexican ID on it. This would be the basis for issueing a work permit to work in the US for up to 12 months. At the end of 12 months, they would need to reapply for the permit all over again. You can add anywhere from 1 month to 3 months for the application period or waiting period to renew. With the US permit they can be taxed legally just like a US citizen. If they return to Mexico, all earned benefits (social security) would revert to the general fund. Then any illegal immigrants would be those unable to secure the worker permit and we can throw them in jail. There would be no criteria to apply for the permit other than proving they are a citizen of Mexico and probably paying a fee for the permit....Now doesn't that sound like an easy solution to the problem? Call your congressman today!:smug::smug::smug:

Cypress - 8-21-2008 at 02:05 PM

Wingnut. Your congressman is on paid vacation.:lol:Don't disturb.:lol:

Wingnut - 8-21-2008 at 03:04 PM

Cypress --- Nah, mine is running for President......

Cypress - 8-21-2008 at 03:14 PM

Wingnut,:lol:

Oso - 8-21-2008 at 04:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mexitron
Quote:
Originally posted by tsgarcia69
You should notice there is no fence between the US and Canada, and none is planned. That is because we can rely upon Canada to police their side of the border and watch our backs for us.

People make jokes and complaints here about cheap Canadians and how they are moochers. The reality is that Canada is the strongest ally, and best friend and partner the US has. Canada took a big chance on 9/11 when it let all the international flights that were barred from landing in the US land in Canada. In those first few hours, nobody knew if the attacks on the WTC were an isolated incident or that start of WWIII.

The fence on the southern border is not really to keep illegal immigrants out, per se. It is to keep out drugs and terrorists. Nobody at the Department of Homeland Security is lying awake at night worrying about illegal immigrants looking to get a job plucking chickens at $6.25 per hour. The fence is going up because Mexico is not the partner Canada is.


I would guess that drugs will still find their way across the border, despite the fence, as long as demand stays high in the US ( for instance, apparently only a fraction of the trucks that enter the country are inspected). And the 911 terrorists didn't come in across the Mexican border.


Plus the ONLY terrorist apprehended trying to smuggle explosives into the US was captured at the Vancouver POE. Someone needs to check facts and engage brain before operating mouth.

redmesa - 8-21-2008 at 04:59 PM

Fences not only fence things out they fence paranoia in. If you check into it, there were plans to put a virtual fence between the U.S. and Canada. ... A no-mans land monitored by spy drones and monitor towers.

palmeto99 - 8-21-2008 at 05:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oso
Quote:
Originally posted by Mexitron
Quote:
Originally posted by tsgarcia69
You should notice there is no fence between the US and Canada, and none is planned. That is because we can rely upon Canada to police their side of the border and watch our backs for us.

People make jokes and complaints here about cheap Canadians and how they are moochers. The reality is that Canada is the strongest ally, and best friend and partner the US has. Canada took a big chance on 9/11 when it let all the international flights that were barred from landing in the US land in Canada. In those first few hours, nobody knew if the attacks on the WTC were an isolated incident or that start of WWIII.

The fence on the southern border is not really to keep illegal immigrants out, per se. It is to keep out drugs and terrorists. Nobody at the Department of Homeland Security is lying awake at night worrying about illegal immigrants looking to get a job plucking chickens at $6.25 per hour. The fence is going up because Mexico is not the partner Canada is.


I would guess that drugs will still find their way across the border, despite the fence, as long as demand stays high in the US ( for instance, apparently only a fraction of the trucks that enter the country are inspected). And the 911 terrorists didn't come in across the Mexican border.


Plus the ONLY terrorist apprehended trying to smuggle explosives into the US was captured at the Vancouver POE. Someone needs to check facts and engage brain before operating mouth.


I agree with you, Check your facts before engaging your mouth as you are painfully not informed.

[Edited on 8-22-2008 by palmeto99]

These needy folks were apprended about 2-3 miles from my back yard !!

beercan - 8-21-2008 at 07:11 PM

And my wife was asking why I have been updating my "arsenal".
Anyone coming to my property is identified or they are looking at
the business end of a weapon.


http://www.yumasun.com/news/patrol_43799___article.html/agen...

Russ - 8-22-2008 at 05:59 AM

Halboo , I enjoyed that U Tube video. Great pictures of good people. The line "White man in a golf shirt with a cell phone" I know that probably isn't an exact quote but it conjures up a very scary image.

woody with a view - 8-22-2008 at 06:59 AM

Quote:

This fence is NOT on the border. It is 3 miles INSIDE the border.


those rascally mexicans can really throw a chunk of concrete further than anyone ever imagined. may become an olympic event soon!

[Edited on 8-22-2008 by woody in ob]

David K - 8-22-2008 at 08:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oso
One more time for the inattentive; This fence is NOT on the border. It is 3 miles INSIDE the border.


Well, since the real border is a riverbed/ swamp/ could be a river again, the expensive wall was naturally moved to solid ground where it will last more than one year... maybe?:light:

That would be one of the few smart things I have heard the government do with our money!

I am just guessing it is inside the U.S. territory because Mexico wouldn't let us build it on their side of the border...:?: That's just a guess on my part...

If the wall upsets some of you, perhaps your anger sould be directed at those who break our border crossing rules and not our government who's prime constitutional duty is to protect us from foreign invasion/ attack.:light::yes::wow:

Peace out amigos!:coolup:

Eugenio - 8-22-2008 at 10:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by palmeto99
Quote:
Originally posted by beercan
And my wife was asking why I have been updating my "arsenal".
Anyone coming to my property is identified or they are looking at
the business end of a weapon.


http://www.yumasun.com/news/patrol_43799___article.html/agen...



Can you believe some of these people posting here wondering why we need a fence.
WAKE UP ********** PEOPLE.


Why would anyone hold grudges against a people dedicated to saving trout. Are we to start deporting catch/release fishermen as well?

[Edited on 9-1-2008 by BajaNomad]

woody with a view - 8-22-2008 at 01:52 PM

Quote:

Why would anyone hold grudges against a people dedicated to saving trout. Are we to start deporting catch/release fishermen as well?


are you refering to the elusive mexican brown trout?

:?::?::?::?::barf::lol:

CaboRon - 8-22-2008 at 03:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by Oso
One more time for the inattentive; This fence is NOT on the border. It is 3 miles INSIDE the border.


Well, since the real border is a riverbed/ swamp/ could be a river again, the expensive wall was naturally moved to solid ground where it will last more than one year... maybe?:light:

That would be one of the few smart things I have heard the government do with our money!

I am just guessing it is inside the U.S. territory because Mexico wouldn't let us build it on their side of the border...:?: That's just a guess on my part...

If the wall upsets some of you, perhaps your anger sould be directed at those who break our border crossing rules and not our government who's prime constitutional duty is to protect us from foreign invasion/ attack.:light::yes::wow:

Peace out amigos!:coolup:


David,

The fence is placed on US soil for the same reason that the border checkpoint is actually on US soil .... so that if you are busted at the check point or caught climbing the wall there is no discussion about whether you are a criminal or not... the infraction happened in the US .... no CS defense about whether the perp was in Mexico or the US ... no defense to the charges.

CaboRon

flyfishinPam - 8-22-2008 at 04:10 PM

Oso,
didn't you say the fence goes NORTH-SOUTH not east-west? is this near the portion of the border of AZ-MEX that runs North-South? from what point to what point does the fence run? when was it built? it is complete or will there be more fence constructed?

flyfishinPam - 8-22-2008 at 04:21 PM

I'm seeing that portion of the border looks North-South in orientation but I'm not familiar with the area.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=gadsden+arizona&...

Oso - 8-22-2008 at 05:02 PM

Yes, the border here is North-South between AZ and BC at the bottom "hook" of SW AZ. We are actually due South of Algodones, BC. David's point is somewhat valid in that it would be impractical to build the fence in the middle of the river. but it is several miles east of the river with several square miles of privately owned farmland in the US on the other side of the fence as well as county owned land proposed for a public recreation area. The fence is under construction and it appears that the location along a canal levee road was chosen for the convenience of fast patrol by BP vehicles. I see at least one opening that looks like it's planned for a gate. I guess I'll find out more 9/1/08 when dove season opens. I guess I'm going to have to show proof of citizenship without leaving my own country. BTW, I was turned on to my favorite dove-hunting area BY a BP agent. I have no animosity toward them and usually enjoy pleasant conversations when hunting in this area. Sometimes they will ask me to step out and walk a few feet in the sand so they can get a fix on my footprints in order to distinguish them from possible mojados. Their skill at "sign cutting" is something I admire and would love to learn if I could get into one of their classes. I'll try to take a close-up of the fence later. The vertical steel bars seem less vulnerable to bolt-cutters than chain-link, but I predict it won't take long before the mojaditos figure out that a bumper jack from a yonke can spread them enough for a reasonably slim person to slip through. For that matter, a reasonably athletic person with good upper-body strength could probably scale it and hop over. Or, as our Guv Janet said, "Show me a 10 foot fence and I'll show you an 11 foot ladder."

[Edited on 8-23-2008 by Oso]

Bear!!! I waited at the airport fer yew !!!

beercan - 8-23-2008 at 08:23 AM

I flew over the "new fence" without the Bear and as best I could follow the river. It (the fence) is only approximately 1/4 mile inside our border, not 3 miles as earlier described. There are access gates (openings) for farm equipment , but the fields to the West of the fence at the widest point were only 10 to 40 acres.

Oso - 8-23-2008 at 09:31 AM

Bob, it looked like more than 1/4 mile to me. (but "several hundred square miles" was wrong, I'm sure) Did it look like they've started anything on the proposed Hunter's hole rec area? I did see the openings where I guess they'll put gates. I'm still concerned but hopeful that it will work out ok.

Sorry bout the no show. You caught me after happy hour...

[Edited on 8-23-2008 by Oso]

[Edited on 8-23-2008 by Oso]

bacquito - 8-23-2008 at 07:06 PM

I have always felt the fence was a wrong idea. It makes it more difficult for the illegal who just wants to pack lettuce or find similiar work to enter our country but it is not going to stop terriorist or drug dealers. They can fly in their illegal produce or build submarines. What we need is a good guest worker program similiar to the Brazero program.

palmeto99 - 8-23-2008 at 07:21 PM

Why can we not have both.

acadist - 8-24-2008 at 06:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diver
This just in from Newsmadeup.com;

Recent rumours have been confirmed;
White House spokesmen confirmed early today that the proposed 3 mile wide "Borderline Preservation Zone" will be stocked with native birds and used for private hunts by "authorized" parties only.
A 48,000 square foot lodge will be built overlooking former favorite "illegal" crossing spots and is anticipated to cost approximately 146 billion dollars. Spokesman also confirmed that the cost would be added to the National Debt following the printing of sufficient "paper" to overpay contractors and other interested parties.
Additional details will .... not be forthcoming.
Stocked with Dick Chaney's friends?:lol::tumble::lol:

Oso - 8-25-2008 at 04:02 PM

As always, I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong. I have to retract my bumper jack comment. From a distance, I thought the bars looked like 1" or 2" square stock. Upon closer examination, they are made of quite substantial angle iron. Not even the skinniest mojadito will squeeze through that bad boy. It ends just north of Gadsden. There will be vehicle barriers from there to? The top edge of the plate doesn't look any more hospitable than razor wire either.

100_0459 (Small).JPG - 50kB

Mexitron - 8-25-2008 at 05:24 PM

A torch could cut through that I would imagine...
...interestingly, in Texas, the majority of landowners on the border (including some quite wealthy Republicanos) feel that a border fence is a slap in the face to their Mexican compadres...they've had a generally good working relationship with Mexico and the few scofflaws haven't seemed to mar that situation. Curious isn't it, from a state that is about as undyingly patriotic as it gets.

Oso - 8-25-2008 at 05:27 PM

They can also tunnel under it. But either procedure takes time and supposedly BP trucks will be patrolling along the levee road regularly.

the fence

bacquito - 8-25-2008 at 08:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by palmeto99
Why can we not have both.


I believe the fence to be a costly venture that will serve little purpose and will be costly to maintain. I think it sends a wrong message-"stay out we don't want you". Far better simply to have a guest worker program. Hopefully our nation will continue to expand and we will need foreign workers.

Oso - 9-1-2008 at 11:10 AM

Hunted a bit on the other side of the fence this morning. Access is difficult but not impossible. Got there late and hadn't done my homework. Shoulda pre-scouted but didn't get around to it. My bad. Never got to my favorite spot, "Hunter's Hole". No way to get a vehicle across the canal anywhere in San Luis or Gadsden. Had to settle for parking east of the canal and walking over a bridge. A few birds there (next to Gadsden) but a lot of company. As usual, lots of CA tags. Stopped a BP agent and found out there are 3 open bridge gates, but all north of Gadsden; 17th, 14th and 7th. That means going through the Cocopah Rez. Not sure if they'll let me through if I say I'm just passing through and not hunting ON the Rez. I don't feel like paying $55 for a tribal permit.

Have to admit the design seems effective for that locale. To come across anywhere south of Gadsden, You have to get across the canal, then a well-graded levee road that allows for high speed patrols, then somehow over the fence and then another canal.

bajabum - 9-1-2008 at 12:08 PM

They should just make it legal to hunt illegals. They would be alot more fun to shoot than little birds, have a lot more meat on em and no feathers to pluck. Plus it would generate alot of revenue selling the licences!

longlegsinlapaz - 9-1-2008 at 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajabum
They should just make it legal to hunt illegals. They would be alot more fun to shoot than little birds, have a lot more meat on em and no feathers to pluck. Plus it would generate alot of revenue selling the licences!
Whether this comment was supposed to be a joke or not, it's in extremely poor taste.:no::no::no:

Oso - 9-2-2008 at 07:30 AM

Well, the homeland is secure...from dove hunters anyway. Went back yesterday afternoon to the 17th St. bridge. It was locked. Another BP agent came by and told me they locked it at 1pm. Guess they figured nobody in their right mind wanted to hunt in triple digit heat. They were probably right. Guess I better find another spot.