call me. and call Jack El Jefe too asap. he has nada better to do than help you and them, trust me!!capt. mike - 9-6-2008 at 12:23 PM
AS POSTED ON BBP, courtesy to PB:
i got this from a friend who runs a fishing charter in Loreto. i asked her to call Sr. Mario L. and talk to him 1st and suggested if the pilots were
not BBP members now is the time to join!!
text - : don't know if you can answer this, but do you know the procedure and fees (roughly) for landing at the airport in Loreto (LTO) or any other
Baja airport, for landing after hours?
supposedly this airport closes at 7pm.
I have three guys out fishing right now who landed on wednesday 3 september at approximately 8pm. they filed their flightplan in Sandy, NV (3L2) on 3
september then flew directly to LTO. pilot says he checked immigration on their hours and was told until 10PM is OK. also he tried to contact the
airport about times, fees, etc and couldn' get anywhere.
when they landed and came into the terminal they ended up being charged alomst xxxx US Dollars. Part was paid my AMEX the rest in cash. they don't
have receipts for all of it either. I have them putting all receipts together and documenting the cash and non-receipted charges so that we may file a
complaint. this doesn't sound right to me, so I thought I'd ask before making waves.
if this is abuse by the airport I will file a formal complaint on behalf of the city of LTO and the hotel association and tourism board. this is no
way to treat tourists especially in a poor economy. if you can direct me to the Baja Bush Pilots perhaps they may also know.
(I will be in a remote location most of the day today with only a handheld so not sure If i can contact anyone with the handheld but I'll certainly
try)
thank you, PB in Loretojorgie - 9-6-2008 at 01:19 PM
Mike, keep top rudder on..........much thanks.
I hope you have put some weight back on, take carecapt. mike - 9-6-2008 at 01:32 PM
haha!! you are cracking me up, man!!
yes i am a gordo for sure. have we met? don't recall the handle.
we will fight to right this wrong. Sr. Landeros is a good honest comandante.
the last guy at MMLT that pulled this stuff got fired and charged for a crime. the arrogance! do they think it would just be accepted swept under and
they'd get away?? un real!!jorgie - 9-6-2008 at 03:09 PM
don't inside loop , outside is better but ya gotta control the rudder.
Yer right but we've been getting it screwed up for years.
Ya were my neighbour two years ago at Seinidad [sic] Don reckoned yer were tops........when ya see him tell him I still think his wife plays great
piano but his daughter gets Sinatra in G.........at two AM that's really great stuff ...........make real certain ya twick off both mags before ya
take offUdo - 9-6-2008 at 03:44 PM
PILOT TALK! aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhjorgie - 9-6-2008 at 03:53 PM
even us 'ol guys can/hope to float ya boat .....or find some well grown alder tree tp stall out on...............it's a habit ....like riding a bike
...capt. mike - 9-7-2008 at 07:22 AM
from El Jefe at BBP:
"As we have said over and over, if there is any complaint about anything, we need names, date, time, recepts, copies of flight plans, and a brief
discription of the problem. With that information, we can (will) go all the way to the top (Mexico City) to resolve the problem. We have saved
members hundreds of dollars all over Mexico but, without documentation, it is a "he said, she said" situation. " Jack @ BBP
------Jorgie, i have no clue who you are. Could be my Dain Bramage.
an RV transient in the park? sorry but we had them by the dozens over the years when i leased permanent space 4.
partied with a few, peeed off a few, ignored a few, and have made permanent friends with a few.
hope you are enjoying baja anyway. sure wish i was there now.flyfishinPam - 9-7-2008 at 04:10 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike
from El Jefe at BBP:
"As we have said over and over, if there is any complaint about anything, we need names, date, time, recepts, copies of flight plans, and a brief
discription of the problem. With that information, we can (will) go all the way to the top (Mexico City) to resolve the problem. We have saved
members hundreds of dollars all over Mexico but, without documentation, it is a "he said, she said" situation. " Jack @ BBP....
what Jack says sounds reasonable but.... This came to ,my attention on thursday afternoon. I started contacting Capt. Mike on Friday and he
responded fast. I found out that BBP's office is closed until Monday morning and I tried to contact them, left a voice msg. also. Nothing can be
done until manana neither here in LTO nor in Chandler, AZ at BBP. Our commandante only works monday thru friday according to the staff in his office.
I was at the airport at 14:00 today (Sunday, which has always been the major flight day of the week) inquiring about Mario and his hours, and
interestingly enough, those inside that office who knew me became nervous. Maybe they remembered the flyrods onboard the beech bonanza that's parked
outside their window. Small town.
if somebody can refer me to or post a picture of Mario I don't know the guy but it will make this easier. the pilots and passengers say the comdte.
was not present when they landed.flyfishinPam - 9-7-2008 at 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike
do they think it would just be accepted swept under and they'd get away?? un real!!
obviously they do capt. mike - 9-7-2008 at 05:31 PM
he is 50ish with slight thin build , tall like 6', full dark hair ,cut like a biz guy would. sharp pressed white shirt always. a moustache, deep set
dark eyes.
a laid back demeanor. almost reticent but firm, no nonsense like.flyfishinPam - 9-8-2008 at 02:13 PM
Thanks for the description but Mario es un pelontripledigitken - 9-8-2008 at 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike
he is 50ish with slight thin build , tall like 6', full dark hair ,cut like a biz guy would. sharp pressed white shirt always. a moustache, deep set
dark eyes.
a laid back demeanor. almost reticent but firm, no nonsense like.
I'll bet you watched Dragnet, huh?Bob and Susan - 9-8-2008 at 02:21 PM
it ONLY takes a razor to be a "pelon"Bob and Susan - 9-8-2008 at 02:22 PM
un pelon= "baldy" in the east la world...capt. mike - 9-8-2008 at 02:39 PM
huh? he's bald? fooled me. the only Mario Landeros i ever met there had hair as far as i can remember. there was another admin guy there before i
dealt with for years he is heavier set with less hair. sort of balding i guess you'd say.
so how did it go? resolve?flyfishinPam - 9-9-2008 at 09:04 AM
my handheld kept kicking me off last night.
I just thought it was funny that I was looking for a full head of hair buzzcut when I figured out who he was. I don't think he has had hair in a long
time and I caught myself looking at his ID badge even though he sat behind the desk.
good reasonable guy and the pilot will be flying out today. I hope they'll be able to take care of the situation becuse it wasn't Mario's department
who overcharged (extorted) the pilots and passengers. if this can't be resolved then it needs to brought to the attention to every private pilot to
be aware of the goings on at MMLT, Loreto, BCS (LTO). i'm not a BBP member so I can't do that but i will warn my clients! its too damned bad I have
to do that at all capt. mike - 9-9-2008 at 02:14 PM
yes, that's the problem , diff depts at the airport. that tells me it was migracion and aduana that tag teamed them for the rip off.
Mario can't help this one but Jack at BBP has gotten these things fixed by going thru mexico city where he is connected at all levels.
Pam please tell your guys they simply need to call Jack and give him copies of all the paper they got. may take a few weeks but i have seen this fixed
before and the perps are usually fired and demoted.
in furtherance of tourism i encourage you to go to the locals govt as well and start some rable rousing while BBP works on it. the last time word got
around that MMLT was ripping guys the BBP members for the most part were very vocal in not landing there and not going to Loreto for R&R.
can be a huge deal. Then Mario got reassigned from TJ and alol was well again. at least one guy with DGAC got axed.
Pam - your guys have posted a short
capt. mike - 9-24-2008 at 08:06 AM
scathing trip report on BBP about their trials from an ARR in MMLT after hours.
i can't tell whether they are pursuing redress via Jack's help as they seem in their prose to have just written it off and warning to others.
can you advise where you are with local tourism board or other support?? and i can post a follow up there for you.
there are 11,000 pilot members nation wide of the BBP that have access to that forum - you sure don't want potential biz to be dissuaded from coming
to Loreto because of perceived shake downs!Shark18 - 9-24-2008 at 08:32 AM
I just read this post from top to bottom. The Loreto airport closes at 7PM. It is clearly stated on the ASA website:
You'd get the same hefty charges if you landed at at US airport of entry after hours.
after hours ARR is permitted under certain circumstances and yes OT does apply but it is no where near $1000 US.
this was a shake down pure and simple. typ mexican jerks attempting to stretch their authority to an extreme.
yes it has happened before and the perps were dealt with after they attempted such extortion. ranging from demotion to dismissal to criminal charges.
edit - by the way, Customs ARR after hours at US AOAs is a flat $25. i have done it many times.
[Edited on 9-24-2008 by capt. mike]
edit - and my ref to OT ARR above is for mex airports, it is normally allowed with no big whoop and comes in at around $300 max.
in the states there are no rules for after hours ARR except as relates to customs services. airports are 24 hrs except by NOTAM and it is the tower
that may or may not have operating hours restrictions. if a tower is closed you still may land at the airport USA typ.
in mexico if the tower is closed you may not be permitted to land except with prior permission. in any event the plane's authority is a function of
DGAC not migracion or aduana.
DGAC had no issues with the after hours ARR - just the knot heads at M&A.
i hope Pam has success with local authorities over hotels and tourism.
[Edited on 9-24-2008 by capt. mike]Shark18 - 9-24-2008 at 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike
after hours ARR is permitted under certain circumstances and yes OT does apply but it is no where near $1000 US.
this was a shake down pure and simple.
Well, your original post never said how much they were charged, it was x'd out. That is a big hit. But, I also noticed that they landed at 8PM on 9/3
which is after sunset. Night VFR is illegal in Mexico and night time is defined as sunset, not 1 hour after sunset as in the US.
If I were those boys, I'd probably just suck it up before they find some smart Mexican that figures that out and things get even worse.capt. mike - 9-25-2008 at 08:21 AM
"Night VFR is illegal in Mexico and night time is defined as sunset, not 1 hour after sunset as in the US."
i do not know that they were NOT IFR. but -
ICAO rules specify the beginning of night as the end of legal civil twilight which is 30 minutes after official sunset.
the tables for that date's sunset state 19:50 MDT which i think Loreto is on. so - legal VFR would have been through 20:20 or 8:20 PM that eve.
if Loreto was on MST then they were illegal for VFR by 40 minutes.
otherwise they were within limits.
and in Mexico just like worldwide the pilot may deviate from the rules if/ as necessary anytime by calling an emergency.
your knowledge of night vs day VFR with respect to time of day is flawed.Shark18 - 9-25-2008 at 10:02 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike
i do not know that they were NOT IFR. but -
ICAO rules specify the beginning of night as the end of legal civil twilight which is 30 minutes after official sunset.
the tables for that date's sunset state 19:50 MDT which i think Loreto is on. so - legal VFR would have been through 20:20 or 8:20 PM that eve.
if Loreto was on MST then they were illegal for VFR by 40 minutes.
otherwise they were within limits.
and in Mexico just like worldwide the pilot may deviate from the rules if/ as necessary anytime by calling an emergency.
your knowledge of night vs day VFR with respect to time of day is flawed.
Well, make-believe Capt. Mike of make-believe Screaming Eagles Airlines, let me tell you exactly what you do not know. Before I do, I should also tell
you that I hold just about every pilot's rating there is, ATR, Helicopter, Helicopter Instrument rating, glider, CFI-II, etc. My pilot's license is
two pages long. So, I think I know a couple of things.
Your quoting of ICAO rules is interesting, but irrelevant. Those rules tell you when a pilot can log night flying time to meet international
standards. Every country gets to determine when a aircraft can be operated VFR. There are even some ICAO countries that do not allow VFR at all.
Imagine that?
I also happen to know that they were not IFR, even if they did file an IFR flight plan. Here is how I know. The Loreto tower was closed at 7PM. No
tower, no control zone and no weather observer. No IFR separation. Even if they did file IFR, the final segment of their flight, the approach to
Loreto would only be under VFR flight rules. Why do you suppose airlines don't operate into Loreto when the tower is closed? By the way Capt. Mike,
where was their IFR legal alternate airport? The only other legal alternates they could have filed were either Mexicali or La Paz, due to immigration
requirements.
If you wanted to follow your ridiculous logic, then anybody with an IFR rating could fly at night in Mexico. Even if the flight were between two dirt
strips.
OK, so let's summerize what we know about your Bonanza boys: They flew into Mexico where the first landing is required to be at a legal airport of
entry, when the published data says that the airport would be closed at their scheduled arrival times, with no customs and immigration. They landed at
night time at an uncontrolled airport where Mexico's rules state that no night VFR is allowed. I think those boys got ripped off by the Mexicans, but
that happened because the Mexicans knew those boys really screwed up and took advantage of the situation.
Like I said before Mike, I think those guys really screwed the pooch and they should probably just suck it up.
Oh, and one more thing Mike. Let me tell you what I used to tell my flying students. "It does not matter what you know about airplanes, it is what you
do not know that kills you."capt. mike - 9-25-2008 at 01:30 PM
well....i guess you told me!! but enough of that Sharks, let's be friends. i like friendly debate as well so continuing.......
"where was their IFR legal alternate airport?" you ask.
if the WX at the destination, intended point of landing and at ETA was within the WX minimums specified forecast as NOT mandating a filed alternate,
then no alternate is required but only fuel minimums apply. i have an instrument rating too. i am not current however so would not file legally
without obtaining my currency.
as a CFII you should know that? yes?
we still have not determined whether their ARR was legal night or day VFR regardless of tower ops. Perhaps you obtained a copy of their flt plan
records?
you don't respond to my explantion of what constitutes day vs. night AR times. if i am wrong please state so. We both cannot be right. you are the
CFII. are YOU current to teach? i'd just like confirmation for pedigogical reasons. As you know - the FARs is like 2 inches plus thick today. i went
through the online version and couldn't find it but only as a ref to the AIM which is not here now.
and i do not have the MMLT approaches here to look at (mine are in my plane's GPS navigator's data base and MFD) but if MMMZ center had them in radar
contact which they can at certain altitudes, could they not clear them for the approach, any approach that is approved sans tower? just like the
thousands of IFR approaches to uncontrolled fields all over the USA? with tower closed the field might have been simply uncontrolled. i don't know
just speculating. but i am going to look at the available approaches to find out the restrictions. and i will report here.
i have used my make believe license to fly my various make believe planes in a very REAL mexico for hundreds if not a thousand or more hours the last
30 years beginning with flights to puerto penasco in 1978 and starting to baja in 1980.
why don't you regale us here of your mexico flying experiences? i'd like to read more. i love flying stories. you must have some. i am ever learning.
i hold only airplane SEL and INSTR ratings. it's all i need recreationally. and i HAVE flown IFR in mexico several times including getting pop up
clearances on the fly due to lowering minimums enroute while at the same time being current therefore legal. it is a blast and the mexican controllers
are much more liberal with enroute clearances making it fun.
welcome shark18 - we need more pilots here!flyfishinPam - 9-25-2008 at 02:31 PM
Hi guys, I asked the pilot subject of these messages, if he was flying IFR or VFR and he told me IFR.Chris Holmstead - 9-25-2008 at 02:55 PM
Having read this thread , Its obvious that Flyfishinpam is missing the point here.
Her clients broke the rules and paid the price . Just because you are an american pilot does not mean you get a pass on the local rules. I also find
it to be very arrogant of anyone who thinks that just because they own a business that caters to americans, they can somehow get around these flight
rules by complaining to the powers that be.Unbelievable.Shark18 - 9-25-2008 at 04:52 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike
if the WX at the destination, intended point of landing and at ETA was within the WX minimums specified forecast as NOT mandating a filed alternate,
then no alternate is required but only fuel minimums apply... the FARs is like 2 inches plus thick today. i went through the online version and
couldn't find it but only as a ref to the AIM which is not here now.
Mike, I really hope you do not have this much trouble getting your arms around an issue in your everyday life. Let me just tell you a few things that
seem to have gone right over your head here:
You gave me a bunch of stuff from the FAR's (well actually, what you gave me wasn't even the FARs as that stuff about weather minimus at ETA is wrong.
The FARs have a time window for a period before and after ETA). Well guess what, Mike? We're taking about Mexico. They don't care jack about FAR's.
They have Reglamento de Operación de Aeronaves Civiles
Let me just give you a few heads up, because you may have been flying in Mexico since 1978, but I'm reading you don't know the Mexican flight rules.
Heads up number 1. Mexican VFR rules are 3 miles and 1,500 foot ceiling (not 1,000 like the FARs).
Heads up number 2. Mexico forbids night VFR, and night is defined as legal sunset to legal sunrise, not 1 hour after sunset or one hour before
sunrise, like the FARs.
Heads up number 3. A Mexican IFR flight plan requires two (yes two) alternates.
Heads up number 4. A Mexican IFR flight plan does not require an alternate airport if the weather at the intended time of arrival is predicted
to be visual conditions, as reported in the manual of operations for that airport. That is an entirely different set of rules than the FARs.
Heads up number 5 (this one is going to make you sit up) In order to fly under IFR flight rules in Mexico, the aircraft must have two (yes, two)
sensitive altimeters. FARs only require one. By the way Mike, does your airplane -- you know, the one you filed IFR in Mexico in -- have two sensitive
altimeters?
[Edited on 9-25-2008 by Shark18]capt. mike - 9-25-2008 at 05:52 PM
Chris - the issue and concern here is that they were overcharged for any legitimate violation. reasonable and expected or published overtime fees are
one thing but outright excess and extortion and taking advantage of the situation is another thing altogether. they were ripped off for cash, receipts
not provided and seek redress. my guess is they'll get some positive action.
now Sharks - i stand corrected on all you say assuming it is correct. and i know the time window, its 1 hour before to one hour after....i didn't
mention it cause was sure you knew that. the 1-2-3 rule respective to IFR flt plans.
funny that after a late afternoon arr in mexicali years ago the comandante would not let us proceed to san felipe after consulting the tables and
ADDING 30 min to our establish our intended arr said it would be past time for legal daylight and we had to stay.
if their ARR inder IFR was expected to be visual, why did they need an alternate? you say mex IFR requires 2 alts then you say under the condition one
is not req'd?? please edify me here. like i said, i am all about learning.
the altimeters is interesting. i will check on that, i would be surprized that applies to private non comm'l ops - like 91 vs 135. you'll probably
soon tell me that mexico does not have 91 and 135 equivalents.
so - what do you fly now and where do you go?
i am asking the BBP about the mex rules stated here.Don Alley - 9-25-2008 at 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Holmstead
Having read this thread , Its obvious that Flyfishinpam is missing the point here.
Her clients broke the rules and paid the price . Just because you are an american pilot does not mean you get a pass on the local rules. I also find
it to be very arrogant of anyone who thinks that just because they own a business that caters to americans, they can somehow get around these flight
rules by complaining to the powers that be.Unbelievable.
I think Pam is on point here. Gouging visitors for the maximum amount possible is a big change for Loreto, which has a tradition of fair and friendly
service. For people in a business such as Pam's, this change toward hard headed, and hard hearted bureaucrats is bad for business, bad for the town,
and it's in her best interest to protest.
I could go on about the obvious lunacies going on out at the airport but Paula's calling and I gotta run now!
Don, I am going to disagree with you --
beercan - 9-25-2008 at 06:17 PM
I fly regularly into Mexico and I live in Baja during Winters.
My approximate 10 -12 trips thru Loreto have been anything but fair or friendly. They have cheated and gouged me multiple times to the point that I
will never return !!! Others have had the same type of treatments .
Quote:
I. Gouging visitors for the maximum amount possible is a big change for Loreto, which has a tradition of fair and friendly service.
[Edited on 9-26-2008 by beercan]DR.EVIL13 - 9-25-2008 at 06:20 PM
Sounds like an unfriendly town.All that extortion going on.HmmmmShark18 - 9-25-2008 at 06:46 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike
if their ARR inder IFR was expected to be visual, why did they need an alternate? you say mex IFR requires 2 alts then you say under the condition one
is not req'd?? please edify me here. like i said, i am all about learning.
the altimeters is interesting. i will check on that, i would be surprized that applies to private non comm'l ops - like 91 vs 135. you'll probably
soon tell me that mexico does not have 91 and 135 equivalents.
so - what do you fly now and where do you go?
i am asking the BBP about the mex rules stated here.
Good to hear that after flying in Mexico for 30-years you are now going to check on the rules. Here is a source for you, it's all in Spanish.
I see from you posts that you actually do seem to have a significant reading comprehension issue, not to mention a problem with understanding the
subject matter that is being discussed. First you rattled of the ICAO night rules -- which of course were totally irrelevant. Then you gave me a lot
of FAR rules -- which are also totally irrelevant. Now you are asking me if they were flying IFR and expecting visual rules...yada, yada, yada. Mike
go back and read the posts. I never said they were expecting visual. How in hell would I know what they were expecting or under what flight rules they
were flying? If they arrived at night and were expecting visual flight rules, they were wrong. There is no night VFR, I think we just covered that. If
they were on an IFR flight plan with a planned visual approach to Loreto, they would have had to cancel IFR with Mazatlan Center before they lost
radio contact when they dropped into Loreto. That would have made them VFR at night -- still illegal. And if they didn't cancel IFR, just how did they
plan to cancel their IFR flight plan at Loreto if the tower was closed and the Commandante was gone?
Those Bonanza boys are dead meat any way you look at it. Why don't you ask those geniuses why they flight planned to Loreto for an arrival after
closing?
I no longer fly. I sold my last plane about 10 years ago when I retired and didn't need to travel for business anymore. I have owned 8 airplanes.
Besides, its cheaper to travel commercial.fishbuck - 9-25-2008 at 06:51 PM
Sharks, I can only imagine you quit flying because the way you do it there is no fun in it. Lighten up dude!
But ya, the Bonanza guys goofed up alright.flyfishinPam - 9-25-2008 at 06:56 PM
the subject here is abuse by officials at the airport. it has to stop. it is in the city's best interest to welcome visitors. tourism is our only
industry that is why it is so important. i am not being arrogant, i am and was providing customer service to my clients in order to ease their
tensions and allow them to enjoy their vacation. i did much of the legwork while they fished because they were on vacation and i believe they
shouldn't have had to waste a day or half a day with this issue. it was appreciated. the comandante was extremely cordial very open and very
concerned about what happened to these guys in the plane but the overpayment part was out of his control as he wasn't present when it took place.fishbuck - 9-25-2008 at 07:01 PM
Ya, the over payment is the issue. They made a mistake but it shouldn't have cost that much. Hope it works out but I doubt they will get there money
back.
But you have provided valuable information to anyone who might fly to Loreto.
Make sure you are totally legal when you fly in there. Otherwise you will get taken advantage of by corrupt officials.flyfishinPam - 9-25-2008 at 07:10 PM
you also left out, make sure that any and all payments get receipts. if you knew the whole story you would understand how it happened in the first
place but it shouldn't have happened at all. especially in a tourist town that relies on visitors like these guys.elizabeth - 9-25-2008 at 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Holmstead
Having read this thread , Its obvious that Flyfishinpam is missing the point here.
Her clients broke the rules and paid the price . Just because you are an american pilot does not mean you get a pass on the local rules. I also find
it to be very arrogant of anyone who thinks that just because they own a business that caters to americans, they can somehow get around these flight
rules by complaining to the powers that be.Unbelievable.
You're right, just because you are a US pilot doesn't mean you get a pass anywhere, maybe they deserved the fines, maybe not...but, you are definitely
wrong attacking Pam. It doesn't seem to me that there is anything arrogant about her questioning whether or not there were over payments. Seems to
me that it is the responsible thing to do. She lives here, she works here, she has an obligation to question whether or not a fine is legitimate.
Typical mexican response--which is total BS!
beercan - 9-25-2008 at 08:28 PM
If he is in charge, he is responsible !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote:
by ffp
but the overpayment part was out of his control as he wasn't present when it took place.
capt. mike - 9-25-2008 at 09:05 PM
ok sharks. i defer to your knowledge. but as Bucky says.....lighten up a bit, maybe have a cooler now and then.
i still say they got ripped off even if they arrived too late. even the best of flight plans can come apart enroute - winds changing, etc.
so - i am still not clear on why center can't turn them loose for the approach, lose radio contact in then descent like in USA and they can call
center once on the ground to confirm and close their plan? nevermind....it's because it doesn't work that way in mexico, right?
i'm going out next week and getting that 2nd altimeter.capt. mike - 9-25-2008 at 09:17 PM
this just in from the Loreto comandancia Sr. Landeros:
About the Loreto scamm... the pilot and one of the passangers came to my office, the DGAC Commandance, and show me the recipes, not the following day,
but almost a week later, on their departure day (they were busy fishing)... I call the head of Customs and he declared that the fee that they paid to
the Customs officer was not legal... I gave to both, the pilot and the passanger, a panflet that has all the information to fill an official complain
to the Mexican Federal Agencies Internal Affairs Secretary at Tijuana, (that's the agency to report in case of federal officers misconducts) ... I
told them that as soon as they arrive to their destintion they should start the procedure, either by phone, e-mail or any other option included in the
panflet... but that's the pilot responsability... if you don't fill an offical complain and you choose to just talk about it on the web your not
helping yourself or other pilots... On the other hand, I've have start a legal procedure against that same customs officer for giving intencional
misinformation to pilots about the airport operating hours that lead to the overtime operation...(07:00-19:00 local time)
The Internal Affairs agency´s correct name is:
Secretaria de la Función Pública
•E-mail: srtbc@telnor.net or asoteloc@funcionpublica.gob.mx
•Telephone: 01(664)623-8933, 623-8687 (support hours: monday to friday 8am-9pm; saturday-sunday 8am-4pm).
•SACTEL Call center (24 hours): 01(800) 0014800. From the U.S. 1(888)594 33 72.
Edificio de Dependencias Federales S/N
Garita Internacional de Otay, Tijuana, B.C. ZIP 23509. (664)6238933, 6238687. (A few meters from the Otay Mesa Port of Entry, in the Mexican side).
P.A. Mario Landeros Lizárraga
Comandante de Aeropuerto LTO
(613)135-04-98 135-05-65
mlandero@sct.gob.mx
the original report from the pilot was that they CALLED migracion/aduana and were TOLD that they could arr and receive services up till 10:00 PM. i
smell set up there. and that does not excuse them from landing after airport tower hours - i won't give them that - but the $1000 they were extorted
over and no receipts...well this isn't over yet. Glad to see Landeros getting involved. Pam, i hope you see this.Shark18 - 9-26-2008 at 12:16 AM
That's kind of funny, in a strange way. I can almost tell you precisely what the customs guy is going to say.
"Why yes, they did call me and ask if they could come in until 10PM. That is true. They didn't ask me if it would cost more money."
Lessons to be learned: (1) In Mexico it does not matter what anybody tells you. The only thing that matters is what the law says. (2) The laws in
Mexico change without notice and are interpreted differently from place to place and time to time.capt. mike - 9-26-2008 at 06:33 AM
i'll buy into that Sharks. been there, had that. not fun.
i look forward to seeing where this ends up tho.
i agree with you if they landed after dark or official closing times and knew it might happen only to rely on what migracion said about the airport
protocol including DGAC ops - well they deserve their fines - the correct fines, not $1000 arbitrary fine in cash made to intimidate and with no
receipt to validate.
and as Mario stated as did the Bonanza guys, DGAC decided not to extort/punish them. that's the mexico i am most fond of - the helping friendly way
that sparked the attitude of, "no worry, manana". Laid back and not punitive. the style that keeps us doing charity work all these years.
BTW i have ordered the english language version of the civil aeronautical rules in mexico. should be interesting and enlightening. i have also
enquired of the BBP admin why more emphasis is not placed on US pilots understanding of the apparent differences. and - am asking the int'l admin of
the flying Sams why they do not highlight the potential for VFR rule differences in their official pilot qualifications and and SOPs publication.Skeet/Loreto - 9-26-2008 at 06:39 AM
It was sure much more fun Flying in Baja from 1967 to1997!
Starting with no Nav Aids, no controlled Aiiports{Except La Paz Military}.
Then along came the DOPE Smugglers and most of the Good Strips were Plowed up.
Capt. Mike and Shark18 I am glad that both of you learned that it depends on who you are and where you are for the Law to take effect.
Skeetcapt. mike - 9-26-2008 at 11:07 AM
and this just in from a trusted source (not that i don't trust you sharks:saint
me thinks we both have factual errors here.
respondent is a resort operator who also runs air taxi ops to mexico:
Here are some answers to your questions. I just had coffee with four DGAC staff and two Falcon pilots at the Alamos Airport.
1. Night VFR is illegal in a single engine aircraft. (knew that)
2. Night and Sunrise times, in terms of "normal business hours" vary from airport to airport. The times are not arbitrarily set, however are
established by each Commandander. After normal hour landings, even though the airport is open and it might not be official sunset warrant an overtime
fee. For example,
Ciudad Obregons normal hours end at 1800, land one minute after and you will pay overtime of 1,500 pesos and 15%IVA (tax). Puerto Penasco uses 1700
hours, etc. Non-controlled airports like Alamos use sunset.
Also, no single engine flights from any airport before sunrise. Actual Sunrise and Sunset is what to keep in mind when going to a non-controlled
airport. (new info here, woo hoo! love to be corrected)
3. The IFR flight plan only requires one alternate airport, regardless of conditions. Two altimeters are never required. (hummmm?) maybe that was
an old or previous rule or for comm'l at one time?
well $150 is a lot more fair than $1000!!
Skeeter - baja flying remains the most fun you can have with your flying suit on.Shark18 - 9-26-2008 at 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike
and this just in from a trusted source ...
Now Mike, remember what the golden rule is in Mexico: It doesn't matter what anybody tells you, it only matters what the law says:
SECRETARÍA DE COMUNICACIONES Y TRANSPORTES
REGLAMENTO de Operación de Aeronaves Civiles
Artículo 76.- Todas las aeronaves cuando vuelen con sujeción a las reglas de vuelo por medio de instrumentos, o cuando no puedan mantenerse en la
posición de vuelo deseada sin referirse a uno o más instrumentos de vuelo, estarán equipadas cuando menos con:
I. Un compás magnético.
II. Un indicador giroscópico de virajes, combinado con un instrumento que marque la aceleración, según el eje transversal de la aeronave.
III. Un indicador giroscópico de inclinación transversal y longitudinal.
IV. Un indicador giroscópico de dirección.
V. Un indicador para comprobar si es satisfactoria la energía que hace funcionar los indicadores giroscópicos.
VI. Dos altímetros de precisión.
VII. Un indicador que manifieste en la cabina de la tripulación la temperatura exterior.
VIII. Un reloj con segundero central.
IX. Un sistema con indicador de la velocidad relativa, con dispositivos que impidan su mal funcionamiento debido a la formación de hielo.
X. Un indicador del régimen de ascenso y descenso
Ministry of Communications and Transport
REGULATIONS for Operation of Civil Aircraft
Article 76 .- All aircraft when flying subject to instrument flight rules using instruments, or when flight cannot be maintained without reference to
one or more flight instruments, will be equipped with at least:
I. A magnetic compass.
II. One gyroscopic turn indicator, combined with an instrument to check the acceleration of the the axis of the aircraft.
III. One gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator.
IV. One gyroscopic compass.
V. One indicator to show the power that operates the gyroscopic indicators. VI. Two precision altimeters.
VII. One indicator in the crew cabin that displays outside temperature.
VIII. A clock with a second hand.
IX. A relative speed indication system with devices that prevent malfunction due to icing.
X. One rate of climb and descent indicator.
LXVI. Vuelo nocturno: Tipo de vuelo que se efectúa entre la hora de puesta y salida del sol difundida en el PIA.
LXVI. Night flight. A flight during the hours between sunset and sunrise, as defined in the PIA (Mexican equivalent of the AIM.)
Artículo 28.- No se iniciará ningún vuelo que haya de efectuarse de acuerdo con las reglas de vuelo por medio de instrumentos, a no ser que la
información meteorológica disponible indique que las condiciones meteorológicas (estables o con tendencia a mejorar) en el aeropuerto o aeródromo de
alternativa, sean a la hora prevista de llegada las correspondientes a vuelo visual, indicadas en el manual de operaciones para tal aeropuerto o
aeródromo. En caso de que estas condiciones no sean las indicadas, se señalarán dos aeropuertos o aeródromos alternativos.
Article 28 .- Do not commence any flights to be carried out in accordance with instrument flight rules by reference to instruments, unless the
weather information available indicates that the weather (stable with a tendency to improve) at the airport or alternate airport, is at the scheduled
time of arrival to be corresponding to visual flight rules, as indicated in the operations manual for that airport or airfield. If these conditions
are not indicated, then two alternative airports or airfields are required.
[The following an an ICAO rule for VFR operations, and Mexico follows those rules.]
Except when a clearance is obtained from an ATC unit, VFR flights shall not take off or land at an Aerodrome within a control zone or enter the
Aerodrome traffic zones or traffic pattern:
* When the ceiling is less than 1,500 feet (450 km); or
* When the ground visibility is less than 5 miles (8 km), or 3 miles (5 km) if so prescribed by the appropriate air traffic service authoritycapt. mike - 9-26-2008 at 03:42 PM
i stand corrected i guess.
i hear there is a rule that all aviones incl comm'l liners must have a current copy of the mex PIA on board but like only 2% actually comply.
me thinks we both have factual errors here.
