BajaNomad - TIGER WOODS' BAJA DEVELOPMENT

TIGER WOODS' BAJA DEVELOPMENT

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bajadock - 10-7-2008 at 04:34 PM

From Wall Street Journal on Tiger's golf course and real estate development on tip of Punta Banda...
TIGER

mtgoat666 - 10-7-2008 at 04:37 PM

he's a smart man, he gets paid to promote it, but doesn't have to invest his own money -- kind of like trump up the coast aways, a promoter, but not a financial partner.

Woooosh - 10-7-2008 at 04:42 PM

maybe he'll start course designing like palmer and nicklaus did...

elgatoloco - 10-7-2008 at 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
maybe he'll start course designing like palmer and nicklaus did...

That is his involvement. It will be his third course design along with a billion dollar development in Dubai and one in North Carolina.

ArroyoTaxi - 10-7-2008 at 08:33 PM

punta banda on a map? sorry

bajabound2005 - 10-7-2008 at 08:43 PM

Punta Banda is on the map. Do you have a problem with that?

[Edited on 10-8-2008 by bajabound2005]

bajaguy - 10-7-2008 at 09:09 PM

Hope Tiger does something about the road and the Topes!!!!!

bajabound2005 - 10-7-2008 at 09:15 PM

You are right, Bajaguy! Even if they "fly"in to that "private" airport it's still a crappy road from that point on.

Stanford grad

thebajarunner - 10-7-2008 at 10:36 PM

Nothwithstanding his degree from Stanford he still seems smarter than this. :lol:

Sounds like another "name promotion" to me.

bent-rim - 10-7-2008 at 10:50 PM

Arroyo Taxi,
Punta Banda is west of Maneadero which is a little bit south of Ensenada. It's on the AAA map, look at D-3 on the AAA map.

David K - 10-7-2008 at 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ArroyoTaxi
punta banda on a map? sorry

If you are asking to see it on a map:

It is the long point that is the southern end of Bahia de Todos Santos (The bay of Ensenada)... Also, the populated 'town' along the road that goes out to La Bufadora, near the end of the point.

bajabound2005 - 10-8-2008 at 07:34 AM

Doc, start working this one now. Nomads4Ninos 2011 Golf Tourney!

thebajarunner - 10-8-2008 at 08:34 AM

Punta Banda is where the kindly ejidos cast the hopes and dreams of countless Gringos into the lovely nearby seas.....

Crusoe - 10-8-2008 at 09:41 AM

This could be just another "pipe dream" in todays current financial situation. I have never personaly set foot out on the end of the point,so I could be wrong. However, I have looked at it closely from sea,1/2 mile off or so, and it doesn't appear to have alot of flat land. Where woud they build the golf course? Beautiful spot though. But at $3 million for lots and condos, My goodness!! Thats even more than Laguna Beach. WOW!!++C++ :barf:

CaboRon - 10-8-2008 at 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by thebajarunner
Punta Banda is where the kindly ejidos cast the hopes and dreams of countless Gringos into the lovely nearby seas.....

bajaguy - 10-8-2008 at 11:06 AM

pay $3 million for a house and have your water trucked in......I can hardly wait to see what Mrs Woods thinks about that.

[Edited on 10-9-2008 by bajaguy]

bajadock - 10-8-2008 at 11:30 AM

B.G.
Desalination might be in the plan. De-TOPE plan may have to wait . All of those black helicopters that have been flying around here past 3 months seem to glide right over them.

Fred-o - 10-8-2008 at 01:06 PM

I agree with Bajadoc, those interested parties are flying right over the Topes in their many helicopters. I live about 3 km from the new Punta brava site and hope the infrastructure improves in the area, but I'm not holding my breath. I understand the de-sal plant has already been constructed but not yet operational. Very difficult to gain access, unless you look like you can afford it, and drive a much better vehicle than my 93' Jeep. Many security guards, on foot and in vehicles to keep out the curious.....like me.

dorbaja - 10-8-2008 at 05:12 PM

So, what about the environmental impact????????????

Paulina - 10-8-2008 at 05:24 PM

If I were an investor I wouldn't worry about the environmental impact, I'd worry about the first good Pacific storm washing out the only road into and out of the property.

We watched it being built and it sure looked iffy back then...

P<*)))>{

TMW - 10-8-2008 at 06:15 PM

At 3 million for a vacant lot I guess I'll not be a neighbor unless a friendly Nomad will give me $2,990,000. I got $10,000 but then there is the question of the house or condo. Better make that $4,000,000 as a gift.

CaboRon - 10-9-2008 at 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
At 3 million for a vacant lot I guess I'll not be a neighbor unless a friendly Nomad will give me $2,990,000. I got $10,000 but then there is the question of the house or condo. Better make that $4,000,000 as a gift.

They are out of their fricken minds ...

You could live in a beautiful home in the states, with potable water, paved roads, and a place where you are not seen as a mark for every Mexican on the food chain.

Baja is no longer a bargin .... and that was the only reason people put up with little or no infrastructure.

CaboRon

oldjack - 10-9-2008 at 09:19 AM

I am really surprised by Tiger's "association" with this project... could it be that he/his staff are totally ignorant of what is going on(crime-wise) in the nearby area... unless you travel by armored car or helicopter from San Diego... I would think these new "elite tourist" will be prime targets for the criminal element... money is like honey used to attract cuddly teddy bears.....

bajabound2005 - 10-9-2008 at 09:21 AM

Crime in the nearby area? There is an occasional break in or theft of copper wire from the electrical poles but that pretty much sums up the crime in the nearby area.

oldjack - 10-9-2008 at 09:27 AM

sorry bajabound.... nearby is relative... since there is lack of a jetport at the development... I made the guess that the travelers would come from San Diego... hence they will travel the gauntlet of T.J./Rosarito .... not known as a "Scenic drive" designated by the Mexican Travel bureau...

BajaGringo - 10-9-2008 at 09:33 AM

Sorry oldjack but the plan is for the homeowners there to arrive by sea or air. Just spoke with someone who has worked on the project with the developers for the last few years and has access to the property. My guess is that with the prices they are charging and the deep pockets financing it, they will build whatever infrastructure they need to make it work. You cannot mention Donald Trump and Tiger Woods in the same breath. Their name and draw are very different in the market today.

This project is not targeting Baja retirees and to make any comparison is ridiculous. Whether or not they will actually sell to the jet set remains to be seen but the fact that they are creating a very private, exclusive project with high security and difficult access that is attractive to that level of folks. I hope they are successful and my guess is that it will be.

[Edited on 10-9-2008 by BajaGringo]

bajajudy - 10-9-2008 at 02:04 PM

Just saw Tiger on CNN international about this new course, but they called it Punta Brava...and translated it wild point.. I am 99% sure that I heard Tiger say 16 holes on the water.
Here the El Dorado Golf Club moved their holes on the water and made them home sites with ocean views. Guess they needed some cash.

Paulina - 10-9-2008 at 02:37 PM

http://www.puntabrava.com/index.html

My Punta Banda neighbor sent me this link about our new neighbor today.

P<*)))>{

[Edited on 9-10-2008 by Paulina]

bajamigo - 10-9-2008 at 05:08 PM

Punta Brava will be DOA. At some point, you have to step back and wonder, does this make sense? Spend $3 million for a scrub lot straddling the San Andreas fault? $3.5 million for a concrete block condo? Arrive via a road that's due to wash out with the next big rainfall? And at those price points, there are some magnificent alternatives that are much more easily accessible...and in nicer places than La Bufadora.

Tiger may very well design the course, but so what? While he's no Tiger Woods, what has Greg Norman's name done for BajaMar? Once the initial hysteria passes, this project will go the way of all pipedreams in this part of the universe....into hyperspace.

David K - 10-9-2008 at 05:09 PM

San Andreas fault?

bajaguy - 10-9-2008 at 06:04 PM

At those prices, it makes my place at the Baja Country Club look good!!!!!!

bajamigo - 10-9-2008 at 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
San Andreas fault?

Close. A fault by any other name...

Agua Blanca fault--A major transverse structure of northern Baja California, Mexico
Clarence Roderic Allen, Leon T. Silver, and Francis Greenough Stehli

Agua Blanca fault is a major right-handed strike-slip fault at least 80 mi. in length that cuts transversely across the peninsula of Baja California about 70 mi. S. of the international border. Its trend is anomalous in being more nearly parallel to the Transverse Ranges of southern California than to the San Andreas fault system that elsewhere dominates the tectonic grain of the peninsula. Geographic features delineating the fault trace are, from E. to W: Paso San Matias, Valle de La Trinidad, Canon de Dolores, Valle de Agua Blanca, Valle de Santo Tomas, Bahia Soledad (S. branch of fault), Punta Banda (N. branch). Farther W., both branches of the fault control submarine topography, and possibly the fault system is continuous with the NW.-trending San Clemente fault off the southern California coast. Physiographic expression of the Agua Blanca fault is remarkably similar to that of the San Andreas. Typical features are Recent scarps, offset streams, shutterridges, fault sags and saddles, side-hill ridges, and fault-controlled valleys. Most of these features are particularly well exhibited in Valle de Agua Blanca, which is designated as the type locality. Rocks cut by the fault are mainly Cretaceous plutonic rocks of the southern California batholith and Lower Cretaceous (Albian) metavolcanic rocks. Along the Pacific Coast, the fault cuts Upper Cretaceous (Maestrichtian) postbatholithic sedimentary rocks that are otherwise surprisingly little deformed as compared to rocks of similar age in most of California. Agua Blanca fault shows a history of right-lateral displacement throughout its length. Recent stream offsets occur from Valle de La Trinidad nearly to the Pacific Ocean; distinctive Quaternary (?) fan gravels in Valle de Agua Blanca are offset laterally 3 mi. from their most likely source area across the fault; in the same area, a fault slice of distinctive antiperthitic granodiorite is best explained by 7 mi. of lateral displacement, and a nearby slice of quartz diorite may indicate displacement as great as 14 mi. In general, evidence of both Recent activity and amount of total displacement appear to increase westward. The fault coincides in gross aspect with a broad E.-W. zone of seismic activity in a region elsewhere characterized by relative quiescence, but no large historical earthquakes can be positively correlated with this fault. Despite its orientation athwart the regional tectonic grain, Agua Blanca fault does not appear to represent a deep-seated structural feature analogous to those of the Transverse Ranges. Instead, it is probably one of several paths by which the San Andreas fault tends to break around the "knot" caused by the great bend of the San Andreas in southern California.

[Edited on 10-10-2008 by bajamigo]

The Gull - 10-10-2008 at 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
Sorry oldjack but the plan is for the homeowners there to arrive by sea or air. Just spoke with someone who has worked on the project with the developers for the last few years and has access to the property. My guess is that with the prices they are charging and the deep pockets financing it, they will build whatever infrastructure they need to make it work. You cannot mention Donald Trump and Tiger Woods in the same breath. Their name and draw are very different in the market today.

This project is not targeting Baja retirees and to make any comparison is ridiculous. Whether or not they will actually sell to the jet set remains to be seen but the fact that they are creating a very private, exclusive project with high security and difficult access that is attractive to that level of folks. I hope they are successful and my guess is that it will be.

Hey, local drug cartel lords need nice homes too, ya know.

beachbum1A - 10-10-2008 at 07:47 AM

And what about protection from fires and medical emergencies? Do you think they expect to use the volunteer fire department of Punta Banda?
Or maybe they will buy all brand new equipment to replace all the old we're using now!! Yea, right!

wilderone - 10-10-2008 at 08:42 AM

There aren't deep pockets - this is a newly formed corp. for this development. Yes, some past experience - Horseshoe Bay - others. But none is Mexico that I can see. Same problems - potable water, sewage, sensitive environment. And why would someone buy a home in an area of the world known for its drug wars. The Pacific Ocean is cold there most of the time, not much to do except play golf. The fishing is so-so - might as well fish out of the San Diego fleet. They might envision this something like Kapalua - but it doesn't get the rainfall and the ocean is cold. There are lots of choices for people who want to spend a million dollars on a home near a golf course. Why incorporate a problem with transportation getting to it. Boat in? They're going to build a marina for very large boats on that exposed point? Where are these boats coming from? Makes no sense. If you're driving, you can't afford a place there. I can't imagine anyone who could afford a $1 million, $3 million home buying there pre-construction. If Trump can't get some reasonably priced condos off the ground, what factors would indicate that Punta Brava would be successful? Tiger Woods says he'll have a house there - I'm sure that's his payment for designing the course. IF it gets built, he'll sell it, after he makes a couple appearances for the rich folk who think they're going to hob-nob with their neighbor Tiger Woods. Ha!

BajaGringo - 10-10-2008 at 09:10 AM

I agree that any development in today's economy is risky and this one is no different in that regard. The only reason I believe that this one might have a chance is that it is not going after your normal buyer. This is not a project that will be marketed by local real estate agents. There will be no banners out advertising "OPEN HOUSE". This is targeted to a small and very high end group with net worth of 100 million plus. Tiger Woods name is a huge draw in that community with some of these guys paying a million dollars just to play a round of golf with him in a charity event. None of these guys would ever pay a thousand dollars to have lunch with Donald Trump. It's an apples and oranges comparison.

The corporation building the development is new but if you go down the list of investors you will find some very deep pockets. Sales at this development will happen more by invitation than marketing. In tough economic times there are only two types of properties that flourish: fire sales and exclusive.

Time will tell...

wilderone - 10-10-2008 at 09:15 AM

Golfers - maybe too much time in the sun affects their common sense.

BajaGringo - 10-10-2008 at 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
Golfers - maybe too much time in the sun affects their common sense.

That is something we definitely agree on!!!!

:lol:

Woooosh - 10-10-2008 at 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajajudy
Just saw Tiger on CNN international about this new course, but they called it Punta Brava...and translated it wild point.. I am 99% sure that I heard Tiger say 16 holes on the water.
Here the El Dorado Golf Club moved their holes on the water and made them home sites with ocean views. Guess they needed some cash.

Tiger was on the Today! show this morning talking live about the "Punta Brava" project. Even a helicopter video of him standng on the cliff overlooking the ocean site. He said it's the third course he is designing and EVERY one of the 18 Holes and Tees has an ocean view.

bajasol - 10-10-2008 at 06:15 PM

Was there not a golf resort planned a few years ago deep down on the Pacific side...three courses by three pros...And the only way to get there was by plane or chopper? What ever happened to that project? I think Fazzio was one of the designers...

movinguy - 10-10-2008 at 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajasol
Was there not a golf resort planned a few years ago deep down on the Pacific side...three courses by three pros...And the only way to get there was by plane or chopper? What ever happened to that project? I think Fazzio was one of the designers...

They abandoned - er, postponed the El Rosario project to focus on their development in Cabo:

www.diamantelife.com

bajasol - 10-11-2008 at 01:09 AM

Thats the one! Was it also named Diamante? Looked nice but a little too far fetched. I can't wait to see the $10 million dollar residence at Tiger's place. Sure sign me up for two...

fishingmako - 10-11-2008 at 10:14 AM

This is a project for the very Rich only, I have been out in a boat a couple of weeks ago and checked it out, you should see the boat ramp, it is on a 45 degree angle I have absolutely no idea how they plan to launch anything from here, they will need cranes, it is almost impossible to launch a boat from here.
All people arriving will be by HELICOPTER or a very few by boat because of the terrain involved.

CaboRon - 10-11-2008 at 10:56 AM

Maybe they will be bringing the boats in via heliocopter :lol:

David K - 10-11-2008 at 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajasol
Thats the one! Was it also named Diamante? Looked nice but a little too far fetched. I can't wait to see the $10 million dollar residence at Tiger's place. Sure sign me up for two...

Diamante del Mar

(good things happen to those who wait!)

They are developing the Cabo property first, as it has all the infrastructure in place. When done, they will return to El Rosario with new knowledge to help them develope the finest golf project possible.

From the El Rosario mesa military checkpoint, look west and see the mile long concrete jet runway for Diamante Del Mar.

tripledigitken - 10-11-2008 at 06:49 PM

David,
Do you have that book marked on Google Earth or Wikimapia?

Ken

rogerj1 - 10-11-2008 at 10:49 PM

I think it's impressive that this project's being started in such a negative environment. They must have deep pockets. I noticed a disclaimer on their website that talked about this being an offer to sell fractionals. Unlike a timeshare, fractionals are a purchase of 1/12 or 1/4 of a unit. So there will be investments that can be made at much lower amounts than buying lots and building big houses on them.

David K - 10-12-2008 at 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
David,
Do you have that book marked on Google Earth or Wikimapia?

Ken

Hi Ken...

Here is the link showing the approximate property of Diamante del Mar... You can zoom way in from this elevation image. The photography is over 5 years old it would seem, since the jet airport is not yet built on the mesa... So, none of the roads of buildings put in by DDM are there either.

Diamante del Mar (El Rosario)

Cajones - 10-12-2008 at 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rogerj1
I think it's impressive that this project's being started in such a negative environment. They must have deep pockets. I noticed a disclaimer on their website that talked about this being an offer to sell fractionals. Unlike a timeshare, fractionals are a purchase of 1/12 or 1/4 of a unit. So there will be investments that can be made at much lower amounts than buying lots and building big houses on them.

I'm not sure I understand the difference. In Mexico, one does not need a fideicomiso to own a timeshare, as Mexican law does not consider it a real estate interest. It is considered a long-term contract to rent a property -- or something like that. If you come out and say you are purchasing a fixed percentage of a property, then I suppose you would have to have a fideicomiso and all the attendant bruhaha. Then I suppose you might need a FM3. More rigamarole.

a few more details

bajabound2005 - 10-13-2008 at 07:05 AM

Monday, October 13, 2008

Mexico Real Estate
Tiger Woods Golf Course to be Built in Baja California
By Brian Flock

· Woods’ Punta Brava course poised for private golf and ocean club community

On October 7, 2008 at the Bel-Air Hotel in Beverly Hills, Tiger Woods announced his third golf course design project worldwide, and his first ocean front course ever – "Punta Brava," in Baja California, Mexico.

According to the announcement, Punta Brava is uniquely positioned in the region to bring together “a powerful combination of land, sea and sky with a leading team of designers, businessmen and athletes to create a private golf and ocean club community that rivals any in the world.”

Not far south of Ensenada and set on a secluded peninsula stretching seven miles into the Pacific Ocean, Punta Brava is surrounded on three sides by rugged coastline and on the fourth by a 1,200-foot mountain peak, creating a virtual island experience that has been millions of years in the making. As announced, Punta Brava is expected to make an important imprint on the face of Baja California for generations to come.

A visit to the nearly 350-acre site in July 2006 was all it took to convince The Flagship Group’s co-founder Brian Tucker that it was the right place for Punta Brava before approaching Tiger with the concept. The project’s current land holdings include four miles of coastline; designs for 17 holes with tees or greens on the oceanfront; ocean views from every single tee, green and fairway; and eight shots over water, something unseen elsewhere in the world. Tiger Woods has placed the final three holes along the ocean, creating a dramatic finish to the course.

The location’s prime real estate has been reserved for the golf course; no houses are located between the course and the ocean. Low-density housing further ensures preservation of the unique ecology and topography, and offers exclusivity for the residents. Natural features of the location include dozens of coves, arch rock formations, islands, and over 1,200 linear feet of sea caves extending several miles underground.

Tiger Woods’ oversight of Punta Brava will be broken down into three phases, lasting until after the completion of course: 1) concept development and planning; 2) concept refinement and construction design; and 3) design oversight during construction. In contrast to more simple branding models, this requires Tiger Woods to maintain a constant connection with the project.

Details such as fairway shaping, green contours and bunker detailing are managed, and follow-up inspections ensure the quality of the course maturation. (Tiger is so hands-on with his projects that he spent the entire day onsite with an injured knee, in June, a week after winning the 2008 US Open in a tie-breaker round.)

Punta Brava will offer a range of exclusive ownership opportunities, including:

· 40 estate sites ranging in size from .75 acres to 3 acres, priced between $3 million and $12 million;

· 30 individual-own villa residences (4,500 to 7,000 square feet), priced from $3.5 to $6.5 million;

· 60 partnership villas (4,500 to 6,500 square feet), with prices starting at $1.7 million;

· A private hotel with 20 villas, each with its own pool, available only to members and their guests;

· A clubhouse, an ocean club, a wellness spa, and multiple dining venues.

This offering is much differentiated from the standard Baja California real estate fare targeted towards Middle America, and it is indicative of the very exclusive and private nature of the development.

Residential and commercial services are already addressed in The Flagship Group’s development plan. An operational desalinization plant has been constructed, with others to be built on existing well sites. Telecommunications systems will be managed onsite, including satellite feeds. The project will also have sustainable sources of power.

Capital for the project is provided by The Flagship Group cofounder Red McCombs, who is currently listed in the Forbes 400 of wealthiest Americans. About 200 local jobs will be created during construction, and another 150 will be employed by Punta Brava in the long term.

Members and guests will utilize the project’s McDonnell Douglas MD-900 twin-engine helicopter for shuttling residents from San Diego or the Ensenada military airport, making road transportation largely inconsequential to the project. (Blogs by local Baja California residents have noted sightings of this mysterious, black airship over the skies for the past several months.)

Additionally, the project will offer short-term anchoring in Todos Santos Bay for yachts and high-speed tenders in an onsite marina. These tenders will shuttle residents to and from their yachts or the Ensenada harbors eight miles across Todos Santos Bay. Although Punta Brava is accessible by air, land, and sea, most members are expected to arrive in private jets, helicopters or yachts.

Moika - 10-17-2008 at 03:25 PM

Hello Everybody:
As you know, the real name of the site for the proposed development is "Punta Banda" and not "Punta Brava". The promoters of the project are avoiding mentioning the real name for obvious reasons.
Also, I wanted to let you know that this project has created a lot of social stir here in Ensenada, because the project plans to remove more than 90% of the vegetation destroying a pristine ecosystem of coastal sage scrub and more than 25 archaeological sites in that area. Of course, since the project is very exclusive, the rest of the people from Ensenada won’t have access to that cultural landscape anymore, it will be alienated.
My perception of these people is that in fact they do not care about the cultural and natural heritage issues, but that they looked to approach to us (a group of citizens interested in the conservation of the site) in order to obtain sensible data or first hand information that could help them to improve the presentation of their project and this way manage to successfully surpass “paperwork” without changing the essence of their project. This way, they would also manage to legitimize or certify it facing the perception of the Mexican authorities and public opinion. Because of all these reasons, we decided not to establish any kind of negotiation with the promoters and we have made a series of decisions that could result in integral conservation of the area, by recognizing its character of Cultural Landscape because of its irreplaceable natural and cultural attributes. Finally, the area is located on top of a major active geological fault (Agua Blanca fault).
I see a lot of money, interests and corruption in this matter. Do you understand the concept of Cultural Landscape? Heritage? Public Interest? It´s like building a golf course in Stone Henge, Yosemite, Big Sur or Point Reyes...

Saludos from Ensenada.

Moika - 10-17-2008 at 03:32 PM

One more thing: their desalinization plant has been operating for almost two years and environmental impacts are already visible: mussel population in part of that coastal line has decreased and PH has dramatically changed...

Stone Henge?

Dave - 10-18-2008 at 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moika
Do you understand the concept of Cultural Landscape? Heritage? Public Interest? It´s like building a golf course in Stone Henge, Yosemite, Big Sur or Point Reyes...

Punta Banda is dominated by yucca plants and scrub. A golf course would be an improvement. ANYTHING would be an improvement. :rolleyes:

Yeah Dave, that one is a real head scratcher

thebajarunner - 10-18-2008 at 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Moika
Do you understand the concept of Cultural Landscape? Heritage? Public Interest? It´s like building a golf course in Stone Henge, Yosemite, Big Sur or Point Reyes...

Punta Banda is dominated by yucca plants and scrub. A golf course would be an improvement. ANYTHING would be an improvement. :rolleyes:

Having developed real estate in the Central Valley for some 30 years I have pretty much seen it all,
but to have concerns over the "native vegetation" in that area is a real stretch, IMO.

Also, as a developer who pretty much started from scratch, I sure don't have the bucks to toss down the sink hole that this project looks to be.

And, sad to say, last time I looked there was a golf course at Wawona in Yosemite, been a few years since I was there, well, maybe a lot of years.

Hey, if they can build a dam in Hetch Hetchy and not blink they can bulldoze the entire Punta Banda peninsula into the sea and it won't matter.

fishbuck - 10-18-2008 at 11:10 AM

I saw the black helicopter flying around when I was at Estero Beach a few months ago. I though it was the governor or something.

bajaguy - 10-18-2008 at 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by thebajarunner

.......Punta Banda is dominated by yucca plants and scrub. A golf course would be an improvement. ANYTHING would be an improvement. :rolleyes:

.......but to have concerns over the "native vegetation" in that area is a real stretch, IMO.

....... they can bulldoze the entire Punta Banda peninsula into the sea and it won't matter.

Well, I have some concerns over those above statements............

I live down the road from the proposed development and I personally like the "native vegitation" and I don't necessarily think that the golf course would be an improvement......

There is a perfectally good golf course about 5 miles away that is already developed...........

And I think that some people would have concerns if anybody tried to "bulldoze" the peninsula into the sea............

Thank you (as he steps off of the soapbox)

Crusoe - 10-18-2008 at 11:21 AM

No Dave---You have completly missed Moika's point. And furthermore the main point in LIFE! And that point is to "Respect Mother Nature in all of her forms" period. You need to spend some time outdoors and go get re-educated. For your info.... yuca plants and scrub and other natural understory plants ceate enviornments to sustain bird life and all kinds of different species of bugs, snakes and scorpians and natural grasses that feed deer, mt. lion and the list goes on. ++C++

Paulina - 10-18-2008 at 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thebajarunner

...they can bulldoze the entire Punta Banda peninsula into the sea and it won't matter.

It would matter to me. :yes:

P<*)))>{

vandenberg - 10-18-2008 at 02:31 PM

Quote:

Having developed real estate in the Central Valley for some 30 years

Now there's a place worthy of being bulldozed under. :biggrin:

We do our best..

thebajarunner - 10-18-2008 at 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
Having developed real estate in the Central Valley for some 30 years

Now there's a place worthy of being bulldozed under. :biggrin:

But sometimes they hide the bulldozer :lol:

LOSARIPES - 10-19-2008 at 02:49 AM

If it impacts the plants, it impacts the ocean. If it impacts the ocean,it impacts the planet, you and us all. Even though "bulldozing" may be necessary in some cases, it should be done carefully and with lots of consideration.
Those with the power to destroy (and build) know that,
but the almighty dollar tends to blind many so called ecologists and earth watchdogs.
They'll get away with it...... in spite of Ensenada residents cry.

wilderone - 10-20-2008 at 08:59 AM

MOIKA - I wish you and your fellow citizens success in reining in this development. Such devastation for the benefit of a relative few. Let us know if there's something we (on your side) can do.

Moika - 2-4-2009 at 04:38 PM

http://futurocostaensenada.wordpress.com/

Summary: Public Hearing on “Punta Brava” development proposal for Punta Banda, Ensenada, Baja California, Mexico December 16, 2008
A public hearing was held in Ensenada, Baja California, Mexico on December 16th, 2008, by request of a group of local citizens concerned about the impact of a proposed 265-acre project to be located on the Punta Banda peninsula that forms the Bay of Ensenada. The citizens exercised their legal right by asking SEMARNAT (Mexico’s national environmental agency) to hold a public hearing for purposes of allowing the public to question the environmental impact report presented by the transnational corporation “The Flagship Group”.
Over a hundred people attended the December 16th meeting, in which the “Punta Brava” project was described by the promoters, followed by 22 presentations given by members of the public, these being divided fairly evenly between those for and against the project (see acta-reunion-publica-punta-brava). Afterwards there was an extensive session of questions, answers and comments.
Of particular significance was the presence of members of the Baja California branch of the Advisory Board for Sustainable Development, which assembled a list of 18 recommendations following the meeting (see consultapbanda-resumenconsejoconsultivo).
Most of the favorable comments came from neighbors and ejido members from the lands surrounding the proposed development area, from individuals and organizations of the business sector, and a small number of environmentalists and researchers. They concentrated on the following positive social and economic impacts that this project could have for the Municipality of Ensenada:
a) the generation of employment during construction and operation;
b) the increase in land values in and around the Punta Banda area;
c) the promotion of a higher economic class of tourists through the backing of golf celebrity “Tiger” Woods.
In general these presentations dismissed the environmental and economic risks associated with the project, including the discharge of salt sludge resulting from the production of potable water for the golf course. They also questioned the cultural importance of Punta Banda as part of Baja California’s cultural heritage, and they implied that the area has already been ecologically damaged, so that from this point of view the negative impact of the project would be inconsequential.
Citizens concerned about the environment, academic researchers and specialists made most of the presentations opposing the project. They pointed out that the project, and in particular the golf course, would have the following impacts:
a) it would destroy one of the most important areas of archaeological remains on the Pacific coast of Baja California;
b) it would ruin a natural landscape of great beauty that should remain accessible to all citizens, and could become a major attraction providing substantial economic and social benefits for Ensenada;
c) it would impede the average Mexican citizen’s access to the coast, violating a fundamental constitutional right;
d) it would limit the ability of local university researchers and students to continue with geological, ecological, biological, marine science and archaeological research studies in the area,
e) it is incompatible with the conservation of the endangered coastal scrub plant and animal ecosystems of the terrestrial zone, and represents a danger for the marine environment, in particular due to the large amounts of salt sludge discharge;
f) it minimizes the area’s geological risks, given that it is located on top of the Agua Blanca fault, which although it has not recently been active, is known to be one of the major faults of the region;
g) it creates a significant moral dilemma and a potential political problem in our arid region, given that the amount of water to be consumed by the golf course alone could supply enough water for 40,000 residents;
h) it would have significant impacts in terms of global warming, emitting more than 8000 tons of CO2 per year in order to produce enough water for the golf course.
They pointed out that the effects of the salt sludge cannot be dismissed, given that there is no study modeling the stationary distribution of salt sludge over an extensive bay area, using the project discharge parameters, physical and boundary conditions appropriate for the area and time of year and a statistically significant number of discharge points, in order to determine which would imply the least risk. They also argued that the positive economic and social impacts would be less than projected, since the estimated investment presented by the developers seems excessively high, a large percentage of the expenses would be made outside the municipality, the jobs created would be few and poorly paid, and the wealthy tourists that it hopes to attract would probably only stay in the country for a brief time.
Below you can see some of the presentations made at the public hearing. All are opposed to the project; we would like to invite papers from those in favor of the project. Copies of the meeting minutes and a letter asking for further information from the developer, both from SEMARNAT, are also included. All these are in Spanish.
Joaquín Bohigas. “El costo del agua en el proyecto Punta Brava”. consultapbanda-jbohigas
Gabriel Camacho. “Observaciones al proyecto Punta Brava”. obspbanda-gcamacho
Moisés Santos. “Omisiones de los aspectos culturales y estéticos del proyecto Punta Brava”. consultapbanda-msantos
Miguel Wilken Robertson. “10,000 años de historia ambiental. Un recurso para el futuro”. consultapbanda-mwilken
SEMARNAT. Letter to developer asking for information. solicitud-info-adicional-punta-brava
Finally, we invite you to participate in the poll that we are taking on this blog (on the right) which asks the following question: Given the arguments presented by the developers, as well as the opinions that have been presented in favor and against the “Punta Brava” project, do you think that this will be a benefit for the future of Ensenada?

Moika.

Moika - 2-4-2009 at 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
MOIKA - I wish you and your fellow citizens success in reining in this development. Such devastation for the benefit of a relative few. Let us know if there's something we (on your side) can do.

Thank you!! Just visit this blog: http://futurocostaensenada.wordpress.com/

and participate with your opinions.

wilderone - 2-4-2009 at 05:28 PM

I WILL - thanks so much for the update and your participation.

Woooosh - 2-4-2009 at 06:07 PM

Even the Arabs stopped building islands with cooled sand. This project can't still be viable on an economic level- let alone the current security situations. Tiger should pull the plug and come back in a decade.

You go Moika!!

Sharksbaja - 2-4-2009 at 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moika

Quote:

Thank you!! Just visit this blog: http://futurocostaensenada.wordpress.com/

and participate with your opinions.

The public stands to lose more than gain in terms of quality of life. The area is special to Ensenada folks and tourists alike. Another elitist coastal golf course IS NOT necessary.

I think a day of protests, awareness, speeches and fiestas with music are all in order. The people should show their solidarity..Maybe even a march. Yes they can! Make a big deal put of it!! :mad:

Gringos can show up to watch and play.

Every Nomad should go vote on that blog as well.

Woooosh - 2-4-2009 at 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja

Quote:

Originally posted by Moika

Quote:

Thank you!! Just visit this blog: http://futurocostaensenada.wordpress.com/

and participate with your opinions.

Gringos can show up to watch and play.

Every Nomad should go vote on that blog as well.

Ecomonics and security issues have resolved baja over development concerns for the next few years at least.

Don't make Tiger throw something at you from his helicopter when he does his fly-over.

Dave - 2-4-2009 at 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja The public stands to lose more than gain in terms of quality of life. The area is special to Ensenada folks and tourists alike. Another elitist coastal golf course IS NOT necessary.

I think a day of protests, awareness, speeches and fiestas with music are all in order. The people should show their solidarity..Maybe even a march. Yes they can! Make a big deal put of it!! :mad:

A meeting with SEMARNAT produced a whole 100 people, half of which opposed the project. Except for activists most folks don't care. Even if they did the government would ignore them. This is a dead issue.

Moika - 2-4-2009 at 07:18 PM

Not for me... I´m a citizen not a servant. It is more important to me to take responsibility and speak up than the final result...

Moika - 2-4-2009 at 08:15 PM

http://www.mexicopremiere.com/?p=786

Tiger Woods To Design Northern Baja Golf Course
Posted on October 18, 2008

David Simmonds

Tiger Woods, the best golfer ever, is getting into the golf course design business. Maybe this bad knee of his is worse than reported and he sees his playing days coming to a close. Many of golf’s greats have become designers, Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer and Greg Norman being three of the biggest that come to mind. I remember about 15 years ago when Nicklaus had plans to build a new course just outside the small town of Tepoztlan, south of Mexico City. Tepoztlan is a very spiritual place with a long pre-Hispanic history and the birthplace of revoltionary hero Emiliano Zapata. Many local people still speak Nuhuatl and they didn’t like the idea of old Jack coming in and messing with their sacred land, even though the earth moving equipment was in place and ready to roll. Wisely, Jack pulled out and the course was never built, and had it been I doubt that it would still be there today. You don’t mess with the ancestors of Zapata.

So now Tiger wants to build a course and a multi-million dollar home development in Punta Banda, down on the peninsula south of Ensenada where the famous blow-hole is. I damn near drowned there one time during a winter storm when a rogue wave swept me off the rocks and sucked me out to see in dead winter when the water temp was about 58 degrees. It took me 1 1/2 hours of swimming against the current before a guy in a Zodiac miraculously came and pulled me out, surely saving my life. I couldn’t swim straight in because the huge waves and the rocks would have killed me for sure. So I know something about the area. And I tell you it is stunning just the way it is. A big green golf course is not what it needs and these plans need to be reconsidered.

I have adapted to the idea that from the border to Ensenada will all be built on one day, but south of there needs to be preserved. And now with the world economic crisis in the mix I’m not sure the timing is right anyway. This could easily be one the those relics that get half built when the money disappears for one reason or another, but the environmental damage would be done. I don’t imagine that Tiger’s own money is financing the project, but whoever it is must be savvy enough to know that Northern Baja has some security problems these days and with a few trillion dollars lost in the stock market crash, the demand may no longer be there for this millionaire’s-club retreat.

My advice to Tiger: go buy a Caribbean island closer to your Florida home and build whatever you want there. Leave Punta Banda as it is. Please.

fishbuck - 2-4-2009 at 08:21 PM

"Golf course? We don't need no stinking golf course!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqomZQMZQCQ

[Edited on 2-5-2009 by fishbuck]

bajabound2005 - 2-4-2009 at 08:50 PM

How many different threads does this same topic have to be beaten to death on?

fishbuck - 2-4-2009 at 08:55 PM

How many are there?

Bajahowodd - 2-5-2009 at 12:54 AM

It will happen. Maybe not on their present timetable, but it will happen. despite the current economic downturn, there are just enough (maybe too many) people with money who will support and sustain this project. Half a hundred people at a protest doesn't cut it. Unfortunately.

[Edited on 2-5-2009 by Bajahowodd]

DENNIS - 2-5-2009 at 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbuck
How many are there?

Maybe lots of them but, what the heck......nobody throws away a new shirt after only wearing it once.

flyfishinPam - 2-5-2009 at 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moika

Quote:

Thank you!! Just visit this blog: http://futurocostaensenada.wordpress.com/

and participate with your opinions.

thank you Moika so will I.
you know it would be a very good idea for us to publish public hearings on these projects. very informative to the citizens who they will directly affect, for the potential buyers, for groups in other locales to use as example and inspiration, and even the curious. perhaps each thread could list the development and the date and subject of the hearing and discussion.

wilderone - 2-5-2009 at 10:24 AM

Use the website above and vote NO. There is also a link to add your comments. Please provide input against this project.

Arguments against:
1. Irreparably disturbs the environment - there is no "sensitive" way to build a golf course on that relatively small area. With the residences and other structures, the land would have to be almost totally scraped clear of all vegetation.
2. The output from the water treatment plant will foul the ocean. In other desalination plants where the discharge empties into the ocean (California and Florida), it detrimentally affects the marine life.
3. This is a private project and will not generate money for Ensenada or the local region. There will be no tournaments; the public cannot play at this course; the public will not check into any hotel there and go to local restaurants, etc. It will benefit only a relative few - most likely not even Mexican citizens.
4. There will be a few service jobs created, but the loss of undisturbed coastline, detrimental effects to marine life, and the entire area closed to the public, will be irreparable and not worth the tradeoff.
5. There is no assurance the project will be maintained in perpetuity. Once the project is built, oversight will provided by homeowners assn. and by contract for golf course maintenance and other amenities - all paid for by the homeowners or by private contract - and subject to dissolution. There is no city government support of this development, as with successful golf courses like Torrey Pines, CA or Pebble Beach, CA.
6. The required fertilizer and water consumption of the golf course makes no sense in a desert region, and where the fertilizer must drain to the ocean adding more pollutants. Other landscaping may require pesticides - regardless, all pollutants and possible sewage can only run off into the ocean.
7. There are archaeological remains which have not been studied, and will be forever destroyed - thus losing valuable analysis and knowledge that should be interwoven with the known body of archaeology for the region.
8. The land should not be developed as with so much of the Baja CA coastline - especially in the north - but preserved for future generations. This project is not borne of necessity - but a wasteful and selfish use of the land by gringos.

wilderone - 2-5-2009 at 10:50 AM

Have voted, sent comments, sent the public hearing comments and Simmonds article to two Ensenada-based news websites and one Golf magazine. I'm just getting started.

Early and often

Dave - 2-5-2009 at 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
Use the website above and vote NO.

Vote all you want. It won't make a damn bit of difference. But as Moika says:

Quote:

Originally posted by Moika
It is more important to me to take responsibility and speak up than the final result...

BTW, I especially enjoyed these comments:

It will benefit only a relative few - most likely not even Mexican citizens.

This project is not borne of necessity - but a wasteful and selfish use of the land by gringos.

Nice. :rolleyes:

Moika - 2-5-2009 at 01:41 PM

Pardon for my broken use of the English language. What I was trying to express was that despite the final result, it is more important to participate, to be responsible, to take matters in our own hands and act than just wait to see what happens (which is what most of us, Mexicans, have done). Is a matter of learning how to be citizens and not just spectators. Is about building a present and a future and not just waiting for something or someone to bring it.
I’m not denying that any project represents an opportunity and that Punta Banda needs opportunities, the discussion is Who, What, How, and Why, it is not about protect the environment and forget about people because we know that people are part of it. Is about Sustainable Development and Social Responsibility…
I don’t care if you don’t believe that it could or would work, I just need to do it…
Moika.

nopo

BFS - 2-6-2009 at 06:04 AM

Thanks for the tip.
I voted!

Aq

A Little More on Punta Brava/Tiger Woods/Environment etc.

bajabound2005 - 2-7-2009 at 06:34 PM

Going for the green
Tiger Woods backs residential golf resort planned for Baja, but potential effect on the environment brings out critics
By Jose Luis Jiménez
STAFF WRITER
2:00 a.m. February 8, 2009

Rock outcroppings frame the view toward Islas de Todos Santos in the Pacific Ocean; sea lions play in the clear blue water; caves shelter the shells left by indigenous people who roamed the area hundreds of years ago.

Even as worldwide economic troubles continue to mount, the property near Ensenada is expected to join the development trend this summer as work begins to transform it into a golf course designed by Tiger Woods. Punta Brava, the developers say, will be breathtaking.

But unless you have at least $3 million to buy an estate home site or a villa, don't bother calling for a tee time when the ultra-private course opens, scheduled for 2011. Only homeowners and their guests will be allowed to play it.

Some real estate experts question the wisdom of developing a high-priced golf club in the midst of a slumping global economy. It is also in an area known more for spring breakers and retired U.S. expats than as an exclusive tourist destination. In addition, a high level of violent crime in Mexico, mainly fueled by drug gangs, has made headlines in the United States and across the world.

Local environmentalists also are concerned about the potential damage that could be done to the coastal environment by the introduction of non-native grass and the chemicals needed to keep it green.

Texas-based developer Brady Oman pledges nothing will reach the ocean, except for a few errant golf shots. In a recent interview, Oman said the company is committed to keeping the $100 million project as environmentally friendly as possible.

He also said the development is fully financed, thanks to the deep pockets of Red McCombs, who co-founded media giant Clear Channel Communications.

And he expects well-to-do golf lovers will be lining up to purchase property so they can play on only the third course designed by Woods. Developers say that with water on three sides and a 1,200-foot peak at the entry to the project, the location is secure.

"We are really confident because of the site, the team of developers and the proximity to Southern California," Oman said. "The site is a once-in-a-lifetime site."

Oman, who has developed golf-and-housing projects in Texas, started scouting the peninsula several years ago. Another member of the development team found the site in 2006, near the famous La Bufadora sea geyser and about 10 miles west of Highway 1, the main north-south route in Baja California. An Ensenada family that planned to use the 300 acres for retreats sold the property and got a five-acre estate on the site.

Next was getting the partners on board. Woods visited the site in 2007, committed to the development and stopped by again after his dramatic U.S. Open win at Torrey Pines last summer.

With Woods on board, Oman said it was easy to get McCombs to back the deal. After the announcement of the project at a Beverly Hills hotel in October, a sales office was opened in downtown San Diego. A helicopter is available to fly potential buyers to the property, where the par-70 golf course is staked out, along with the locations of the clubhouse, spa and an ocean club with a pool.

So far, 12 people have committed to purchasing at the development, including Woods himself. A total of 40 estate home sites and 100 villas will be sold. Owners will have the opportunity to hosts guests at 20 of the villas; the exact arrangements are being worked out, according to the developers.

Approximately 750 people will be employed during the construction phase, with 200 permanent jobs afterward. Potable water will be provided by a desalination plant, and irrigation water will drain into retention ponds, which will then be recycled through a treatment plant, Oman said.

"Nothing goes into the ocean," Oman said.

While local environmentalists applaud the steps taken to lessen the environmental impacts, the immediate surroundings will be affected, said Juan Manuel Rodríguez, who heads the department of urban and environmental studies at Colegio de la Frontera Norte, or COLEF, a Tijuana-area think tank.

Manuel, who attended the public hearing for the project last month before Mexico's environmental agency, cited three areas of concern.

The first is the adverse impact that earth moving and grading would have on the animals and plants that inhabit the site and nearby waters. Next, the area is a "dry coastal zone," and introducing lots of water and chemicals would change the indigenous vegetation.

Lastly, dumping the highly concentrated salt residue produced by desalination plants into the ocean could harm the sea plants and creatures near the outfall.

"Little by little, the grass on the golf course will invade the indigenous coastal vegetation," Manuel said. "What the people of Ensenada want is that the beautiful coastal views and access to the surrounding waters be preserved."

The development along northern Baja California's Pacific coast is turning it into an extension of urban Southern California, said Horacio de la Cueva, a specialist in biological conservation with CICESE, a scientific think tank near Ensenada.

"One of the things Baja California has to offer is natural beauty. And many people are willing to pay to enjoy that experience," he said.

Golf courses are not environmentally friendly, but instead "green asphalt," de la Cueva said.

"Once they destroy the landscape, it will never return."

With only 120 properties for sale, the developers have little inventory to sell compared with other golf course developments. But high prices, comparable to ocean-view properties in La Jolla, could make it a difficult sale in what many economists call a worldwide recession that may last for years, said Leonard Baron, a lecturer at SDSU's business school.

The local real estate expert also questions the location near Ensenada, which is not known as a world-class tourist spot, like Cabo San Lucas to the south. Recent headlines about violence in Mexico also may make people question whether it is a wise investment.

There is also the larger issue of buying property in a foreign country and being subject to its laws.

"You're trying to create a place for people to go to that they wouldn't traditionally go to," Baron said. "Do I want to live in such a remote area? What is the long-term viability? Those may be questions potential buyers are asking."

Oman said the property title is clear and title insurance will be offered through a U.S. company.

Further, the Mexican government has adopted reforms to real estate laws to avoid the nightmare scenarios some Americans have experienced in the region, said Oscar Escobedo, Baja California's tourism secretary.

In 2000, more than 200 U.S. citizens at Punta Banda, which is a few miles from the Punta Brava site, were evicted after being caught in the middle of a coastal property dispute between a communal landholding group and private owners. They were forcibly removed from their homes when the land was restored to the private landowners.

The secretary said he is well aware of the tough economic climate. He noted that 18 developments between Tijuana and Ensenada have been halted for financial reasons.

But Escobedo said he is confident Punta Brava, which is expected to be permitted within a few weeks, will succeed and bring a new class of high-end tourism to the region as owners invite friends and business partners to play golf. He said he believes the current crime wave, which his office has blamed for as much as a 70 percent drop in visitors across the Mexican state, will pass and that tourism will rebound. "This golf course has the potential of putting Baja California on the map as a worldwide golf destination," Escobedo said in an interview. "I don't see the current violence having a long-term impact. This is not the first time, nor the last, that Mexico goes through a crisis."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

jose.jimenez@uniontrib.com

woody with a view - 2-7-2009 at 06:40 PM

Quote:

"This golf course has the potential of putting Baja California on the map as a worldwide golf destination,"

well, chiite! then make it happen!!! :no:

Well another fishery shot to hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bronco - 2-8-2009 at 12:53 PM

Waste Discharges
Desalination plants produce liquid wastes that may contain all or some of the following constituents: high salt concentrations, chemicals used during defouling of plant equipment and pretreatment, and toxic metals (which are most likely to be present if the discharge water was in contact with metallic materials used in construction of the plant facilities). Liquid wastes may be discharged directly into the ocean, combined with other discharges (e.g., power plant cooling water or sewage treatment plant effluent) before ocean discharge, discharged into a sewer for treatment in a sewage treatment plant, or dried out and disposed of in a landfill. Desalination plants also produce a small amount of solid waste (e.g., spent pretreatment filters and solid particles that are filtered out in the pretreatment process).

For example, the capacity of the City of Santa Barbara's desalination plant is 7,500 AF/yr (about 7.16 MGD). In May 1992, the plant produced 6.7 MGD of product water and generated 8.2 MGD of waste brine with a salinity approximately 1.8 times that of seawater. An additional 1.7 MGD of brine was generated from filter backwash. Assuming that concentrations of suspended solids in the seawater feed range from 10 to 50 ppm, approximately 1.7 to 5.1 cubic yards per day of solids were generated, which is equivalent to one to two truck-loads per week. (Source: Woodward-Clyde Consultants, EIR for the City of Santa Barbara and Ionics, Inc.'s Temporary Emergency Desalination Project, March 1991.)

BajaGringo - 2-8-2009 at 01:02 PM

I used to hear this same analysis of how the oil platforms off Santa Barbara were going kill the marine life there too. Ever been out to one? I have been - lots of times.

Some of the best fishing I have ever done has been off the lower decks of Platform Heritage. Just have to be careful not to get in the way of all the sea lions down there sunning themselves...

:lol:

Oil platform vs Golf course?

Bronco - 2-8-2009 at 01:23 PM

http://www.bahamasissues.com/archive/index.php/t-14382.html

BG, 1st it is not an analysis, second do some research on who benefits from off shore and who benefits from the fat cats playing golf that will ruin the fishery and pristine property that belongs to the Mexican people, who again are being exploited. Kinda like Trump Dump that is now a sewer.
Still can't find your copters, of course your sources "they" will surely find them, possibly at Burbank or Santa Monica.

And yes I'v been a diver for 30 years, done the islands in SB and Long Beach. Great diving and great revenues.

BajaGringo - 2-8-2009 at 01:40 PM

I grew up in the SoCal area and have spent a lot of time out on oil platforms through two different businesses I have owned. One of them was a laboratory and we did a lot of waste water analysis. I am just telling you that the data you give is really a bit misleading. So are the volumes. An average golf course today in Southern California uses about 200 thousand gallons, not 7.16 million gallons per day. This course WILL NOT have full, seeded fairways and rough like most courses as they will use the natural terrain for much of the course design, with grass in the tee boxes, narrow fairway landing areas and greens. A lot less grass in this design will mean even less water consumption.

The "toxic metals" you mentioned from the plant construction are at such minimum levels they are hard to detect even by ICP-MS. If they are picked up you will find they are usually in the ppt range (parts per trillion). Do an analysis of your home tap water, vitamin supplements and the beer out of that aluminum can. You may be surprised what you will find in the high ppb (parts per billion range) and a few in the ppm (parts per million)...

I am not pushing for this development to happen. I make NO MONEY whether it happens or not. I will NEVER be invited to play a round there when this course actually opens to its members.

I just don't like to see data being thrown around that is not accurate or relevant for the sake of trying to make an argument. Bring me some good data and we'll talk...

:rolleyes:

[Edited on 2-8-2009 by BajaGringo]

Barry A. - 2-8-2009 at 02:11 PM

Just an observation from one who had to somehow find the reality in land management issues before we acted:

Many times the folks that are passionately behind the "environmental movement" over-state their positions, and exagerate their "scientific facts" to the point of partially shooting themselves in the foot--------i.e. once the "spin" is discovered the "point" they are making is discredited to the detriment of their cause, to put it mildly.

This is really a shame as their causes are sometimes (certainly not always) very worthwhile.

Barry

BajaGringo - 2-8-2009 at 02:16 PM

Thanks Barry - that is exactly the point I was trying to make. Give real, accurate facts and folks might listen to you. Just throwing out data that is misleading or "over-stated", trying to make an argument will eventually backfire.

If you have a valid argument based in real science and real numbers, make it. You will likely find a lot of supporters willing to listen and even win over a few who originally weren't...

wilderone - 2-9-2009 at 01:20 PM

A"pproximately 750 people will be employed during the construction phase, with 200 permanent jobs afterward. Potable water will be provided by a desalination plant, and irrigation water will drain into retention ponds, which will then be recycled through a treatment plant, Oman said.

"Nothing goes into the ocean," Oman said."

HMMM - WHERE HAVE WE HEARD THAT BEFORE?
Where will the 750 construction workers live?
Have they started the desal/treatment plant?
Permits? What permits?

BajaGringo - 2-9-2009 at 05:28 PM

My guess is the construction workers will be pulled from the local area. Ensenada has a large workforce needing construction work so I doubt any housing will be needed for outside help. There is already one desal plant onsite that was built by the previous owner and is functioning. The plan is to build a larger one to handle the course and development needs.

:rolleyes:

[Edited on 2-10-2009 by BajaGringo]

bajabound2005 - 2-9-2009 at 09:52 PM

doesn't that pretty much work to one full-time worker per house sold? Oh, please give me one of those!

DENNIS - 2-10-2009 at 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajabound2005
doesn't that pretty much work to one full-time worker per house sold? Oh, please give me one of those!

Just one? Remember...these are the people who taught Caltrans how to get a job done. One to work and three to watch.

BajaGringo - 2-10-2009 at 09:41 AM

Then they will need a LOT of shovels to lean on...

:lol:

bajamigo - 2-10-2009 at 09:58 AM

Quote:

"Nothing goes into the ocean," Oman said."

HMMM - WHERE HAVE WE HEARD THAT BEFORE?
Where will the 750 construction workers live?
Have they started the desal/treatment plant?
Permits? What permits?

The desal plant has been in operation for some time. According to local fishermen, the mussel shoals around the discharge area (retention ponds have not yet been built) are pretty much dead.

wilderone - 2-11-2009 at 10:48 AM

More skepticism from the pros:

Article originally appeared on (http://www.geoffshackelford.com/).

“He’s on his third golf course contract"
Wednesday, January 7, 2009 at 07:32 PM
Geoff in Architecture, Tiger Woods

There really hasn't been a story questioning the direction and concept behind Tiger Woods' entry into the golf course design business until Paul Sullivan filed this in-depth and skeptical take for the February issue of Portfolio.

I'd wager that the tone of this story is a product of a few elements. One, Sullivan does not need further access to Woods and therefore has filed a fair and honest assessment that probably won't be well received by Woods. Two, Porfolio appears dedicated to serious dissection of issues in American business along with only some of the nauseating deep-tissue ego massaging that the business community soaks up (and which as served it so well!). And three, the recent economic crisis has exposed flaws in the early approach by Woods to go after unprecedented fees and big-scale, difficult projects, though you may recall I detected some negative reaction after attending the impressive but over-the-top Punta Brava press conference in October.

A few points from the Sullivan piece. Get ready: big ego collision!

"Even Nicklaus, an admirer of Woods’ talent on the course, is skeptical about the new projects’ timing. “He’s on his third golf course contract,” Nicklaus says, emphasizing the last word. “He hasn’t done any yet. I don’t think he’s finished any golf courses.”

But Jack's not paying attention or counting or anything like that. He's just a supportive elder father figure who loves it that this fee looks like a bargain now!

"Woods is earning a flat fee to design and promote the courses. That money will be paid regardless of whether the associated real estate deals survive the economic downturn."

This would seem to counter the belief that his inflated design fees are contingent upon real-estate sales. Smart move on Tiger's part, but it's hard to imagine those willing to pay such fees coming along again for a very long time.

The setup is remarkably risky for investors, given that Woods has never completed a course design and that all the projects have built-in knocks—from out-of-the-way locations to high costs. But Woods shows no signs that he’s daunted. “I’ve learned so much in these few months,” he says. “The amount of meetings I’ve been in—you’d be shocked by the number of meetings I’ve been in, but that’s how you gain the knowledge: being in the meetings and participating. You learn and you grow.”

That's great experience, but some of the best knowledge is learned watching another architect deal with this stuff and spending time in the field observing construction. Because it's ultimately about building interesting holes. Pointing at a topo map is just a tiny part of that process. While I detest the global behemoth that Nicklaus Design has become, cranking out too many Paint-By-Numbers designs, you have to hand it to Nicklaus for putting in his time with Pete Dye and Desmond Muirhead before going out on his own. Tiger might have benefited from a similar apprenticeship. But he usually proves pundits wrong, and he may well do the same with his golf architecture practice.

Still, this is encouraging:

Yet the Cliffs and Punta Brava people I spoke to have been surprised by how involved Woods has been. “I don’t think I expected the intensity,” Cliffs V.P. Brazinski says. “When Tiger shows up, he puts on his boots, gets a bottle of water, and says, ‘Let’s go.’ When some of the other designers come, they just want to see it by helicopter.”

Gee now, who has designed courses at The Cliffs? For those of you counting at home, Jack, two Tom Fazio courses and a Gary Player.

Sullivan also reports this next item which doesn't pass a smell test.

Woods has been planning his new courses for the past two years. His managers at IMG began brokering the deal for the project in Dubai in 2006. In December of that year, a month after taking the helm of Tiger Woods Design, Bell was approached by Punta Brava backers about involving Woods in the project. Bell toured the site in January 2007 but took another year to commit. A few months later, in April 2007, Woods was approached by the Cliffs team.

And...

A couple of days after winning the 2008 U.S. Open, with much of the sports world focused on the state of his knee, Woods was in Mexico to vet Punta Brava’s new layout for the 22nd time—more than five times as many site visits as most brand-name golf course architects do.

Now, think about that. He's not signed on the dotted line until January 2008. So between then and June, Tiger got on board Tiger Airship 1, and landed then later took off at beautiful Ensanada International Airport 22 different times? And remember, the prior year he was playing a full schedule and spending a lot of time with his newborn, so even if those 22 "site visits" stretched back into 2007, he would have had to be spending almost no time on any other activities to squeeze so many site visits into his schedule.

Now, 22 days on site may be what was meant, but there's a huge difference between 22 days and 22 site visits, even if you are traveling via private jet.

The story also features a video that shows a lot of the staging and other nonsense that goes into a Woods site visit. Doesn't look like much fun.

wilderone - 2-11-2009 at 10:56 AM

More details on the business: Note: "While precise numbers are a closely guarded secret, Golf World estimates that for Punta Brava alone, Woods’ firm will be paid $25 million. If that figure is even close to correct, it is unprecedented, given that a backer of one of the courses puts the cost of the entire Punta Brava venture at about $100 million. Top course architects like Tom Fazio rarely earn fees of more than $2 million."

http://www.entrepreneur.com/growyourbusiness/portfoliocombus...

Where is Carlos Slim?

Bronco - 2-11-2009 at 12:39 PM

You want a golf course, let Carlos talk to Woods make a deal that benefits the Mexican people, inhances Cantu,and the whole Punta Banda area. Have a nice boat that can run folk to Ensenada for dinner, dancing and contribute to the local economy. A little more work on our boat ramp at La Bufadora and we can get the tourist back for some trinkets-of course on a mini-luxury air foil etc.

lizard lips - 2-11-2009 at 01:03 PM

DON'T WANT IT. DON'T NEED IT, AND DON'T WANT ANY MORE CHANGE IN PUNTA BANDA. I LIKED IT THE WAY IT WAS BACK IN THE 50ies............SO ALL OF YOU THAT HAVE BUILT HOMES IN THE PUNTA BANDA AREA SINCE 1960 PLEASE BULLDOZE YOUR HOME DOWN AND GET OUT!!!!!!!!!

(I am now off my soapbox-----The same one Bajaguy uses!)

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