BajaNomad - As the Violence Soars, Mexico Signals It's Had Enough of America's Stupid War on Drugs

As the Violence Soars, Mexico Signals It's Had Enough of America's Stupid War on Drugs

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gnukid - 10-14-2008 at 09:58 AM

As the Violence Soars, Mexico Signals It's Had Enough of America's Stupid War on Drugs

http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/102857/as_the_violence_...

Even on his most homicidal of days, Al Pacino's character in Scarface couldn't even approach the level of drug trafficking-related brutality bleeding down Mexico's streets. It is no longer unusual for the Mexican news media to report on yet another, freshly decapitated head stuck atop a fencepost or a metal spike, or a garbage bag filled with body parts, usually with a hand-scrawled note or placard attached. That amounts to a cartel's calling card, and it's usually delivered in the form of a warning to a rival cartel, or for the Mexican authorities to stay away and stop seizing their drugs. Other times, it's just a chilling placard intended to strike terror into the hearts of the people who come across the gory scene and the text: "Ha Ha Ha." To be sure that their message is heard, cartels are known to send regular text messages to newspaper reporters, place newspaper advertisements, or to even upload their own killing videos (sometimes accompanied by narco-corridos as background music) to YouTube.

Mexican drug cartels are, rather effectively, fighting the government's War on Drugs with their own War of Terror, often swelling their ranks (and combat/terror tactics) with former members of law enforcement. The Zetas, for instance, are members of former Mexican counter-narcotics squads (some with U.S.-assisted training under their belts), who have become the self-proclaimed and much-feared hit men of the Gulf cartel.

So far this year, roughly 3,500 murders have been directly attributed to the drug war in Mexico, surpassing last year's estimate of 2,500. (These numbers include the murders of at least 500 soldiers, cops, judges, politicians -- and their family members -- in nearly two years. The drug war rages across Mexico's urban and (mostly) rural terrain, and murders are usually targeted toward pronounced rivals, but increasing numbers of victims are innocent bystanders, including women and children who were previously considered off-limits where acts of drug war-related retaliation were concerned.

Reports of attacks are rolling in daily, sometimes several times a day. This Sunday, unidentified gunmen shot up the United States consulate in the northern Mexican city of Monterrey. While no injuries were reported there because the consulate was closed, six young adults attending a private celebration were killed on Saturday in the violence-and-drug-plagued Mexican border state of Chihuahua, in Ciudad Juárez. Those murders, as yet unsolved, followed on the heels of 11 homicides in a Chihuahua bar, when a gunman opened fire on unsuspecting patrons, including a prominent journalist who may or may not have been a specific target.

It should be of note that much of the worst drug war violence is happening right at the border: Tijuana, adjacent to San Diego, saw nearly 40 people murdered in the last week of September alone, in addition to nearly 25 deaths of male and female prisoners the previous week due to two major riots at the vastly overcrowded Tijuana State Prison. (Prisoners alleged frequent incidents of torture and sexual violence, sometimes leading to death, at the hands of guards.)

American newspapers located in border cities and states tend to report some of the more gruesome events and mass killings, but the rest of this country seems remarkably in the dark about what's happening to our Mexican neighbors, much less the fact that the violence has increased dramatically since U.S. drug war dollars have increased in the form of support for Mexican President Felipe Calderón's militarily-minded crackdown on trafficking, with the goal of dismantling the cartels' leadership apparatus, as well as breaking apart close alliances between local authorities, cops, and drug traffickers. (Corruption in Mexican law enforcement and military is epidemic; consider that many police officers in Mexico make no more than $5,000 per year.)

Since President Calderón took office in December 2006, he has authorized large-scale troop deployments (roughly 30,000 troops), in an attempt to diminish the power lorded over Mexico and its citizens by rival Gulf and Sinaloa cartels, as well as affiliates like La Familia, which has earned a reputation for particularly memorable and gruesome acts, including the night that five decapitated heads were thrown onto a dance floor packed with people.

Seizures of illicit drugs, particularly cocaine, have indeed increased. But so has the bloodshed and the level of fear: a national poll published on October 4th indicated that more than 40% of Mexicans felt less secure since Calderón's drug war offensive began. Another poll published by the Mexico City daily, Reforma, showed that more than half of Mexicans believed that the cartels, not the government, were winning the drug war.

Still, as one would imagine, the Bush Administration has responded favorably to Calderón's crackdown on drug cartels, ushering in the three-year "Merida Initiative" to support counter-narcotics efforts in Mexico and Central America: "The Merida Initiative complements U.S. domestic efforts to reduce drug demand, stop the flow of arms and weapons, and confront gangs and criminal organizations," as the State Department explained in April 2008.

This past June, Bush struck a deal with Calderón to approve $400 million toward additional drug war assistance (representing a 20% increase in the Mexican anti-narcotics budget) -- for still more helicopters, military training, ion scanners, canine units, and surveillance technology.

Considering their close ties, President Calderón's announcement earlier this month must have come as a bit of an unwanted surprise to the Bush Administration. On October 2, Calderón proposed legislation that would decriminalize drug possession, ostensibly for personal use. Not just for marijuana, as one might have expected in a country where pot smoke has not been demonized to the same degree as in the U.S., but for cocaine, methamphetamine, and heroin, as well.

To be more specific, Calderón's proposed legislation, supported by the Mexican attorney general's office, is intended to address a different kind of drug crisis on Mexican soil: a growing number of addicts. Cocaine once solely destined from Columbia and other Andean nations toward the U.S. is still flowing in such great supply that it has ended up attracting more users -- and abusers. In addition, meth lab crackdowns in the U.S. have allowed narco-cartels to step in and fill the void, so that speed is now more readily available in Mexico, as well. The impact has been dramatic: according to the government's own statistics, the number of drug addicts in Mexico is estimated to have doubled in just six years to 307,000, while the number of people who have tried drugs at some point rose from 3.5 million to 4.5 million.

If passed, Calderón's legislation would decriminalize up to 2 grams of marijuana, 500 milligrams of cocaine, 40 milligrams of meth, and 50 milligrams of heroin. To qualify, any individual arrested with those drugs would have to agree to a drug treatment program to address admitted addiction or enter a prevention program designed for recreational users. Those who refused to attend one of these kinds of programs would be subject to a fine.

This proposal isn't the first of its kind in Mexican political history. In fact, former President Vicente Fox also supported limited decriminalization just over two years ago, but his efforts were quashed in the wake of unrelenting pressure from the White House and the Office of National Drug Control Policy. It's a safe bet that pressure of this kind has already started up where Calderón's proposal is concerned.

"President Calderón's proposal to decriminalize personal possession of illicit drugs is consistent with the broader trend throughout Western Europe, Canada, and other parts of Latin America to stop treating drug use and possession as a criminal problem," says Ethan Nadelmann, executive director of the Drug Policy Alliance, a national drug policy reform organization. But it contrasts sharply with [the approach taken in] the United States [the U.S. government] should think twice before criticizing a foreign government for its drug policy, much less holding out the U.S. as a model. Looking to the U.S. as a role model for drug control is like looking to apartheid South Africa for how to deal with race."

Or, for that matter, looking toward U.S. intervention in Columbia as a model for how to deal with Mexican drug cartels. In effect, the U.S. government waded into a long-running civil war when it started to throw money toward anti-narcotics military training, aviation training, weaponry, surveillance technology, and the availability of Monsanto's coca-killing herbicide, Round-Up. Ostensibly, all of this assistance was for the "good guys." American taxpayers, as always, were expected to overlook the death squad part of the equation, the part about the right-wing paramilitary leaders who took their U.S.-supplied training and weapons and turned them into family and local economy-displacing attacks akin to, or worse, than that of their sworn enemies, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Columbia (FARC).

The end result: Columbia's cities, towns, jungles, and streets were turned into even more militarized, more deadly versions of themselves. The U.S. government still declared victory when the leadership of the cocaine-producing Medellín Cartel was dismantled (or killed) from the 1980s to the early 1990s.

That particular cartel was brought down, and city streets are safer today than they were in the 80s and 90s, but Columbia's problems have hardly gone away. Blood still flows as a result of territorial battles between FARC and right-wing militias, often over the control over land suitable for growing plentiful coca crops. At this very moment, there are some 300,000 displaced Columbians, meaning the country has the second-worst internal refugee crisis in the world, right behind Sudan.

Since 2000, in fact, the U.S. has continued to pour huge sums of money into Columbia: over $5 billion since 2000, making it the biggest recipient of drug war funding (from the U.S. to a foreign country) in the 21st century. Has it paid off? Consider that in June, the United Nations released data indicated that coca cultivation actually increased nearly 30% in 2007 to 244,634 acres.

Columbia not only remains the world's largest coca producer, but its farmers have apparently succeeded in creating herbicide-resistant hybrid coca plants that defy Monsanto's poisons. Ninety percent of the cocaine consumed by Americans (half the cocaine consumed in the world goes up American noses) is now flowing this way from Columbia. And much of that cocaine is, indeed, passing through Mexico. (It is estimated that 80% of methamphetamine reaching the U.S. is coming from Mexico directly.)

Last week, the two-day security meeting of the Organization of American States kicked off with the frank admission that Mexico's narco-cartels are primarily buying their cocaine from FARC and right-wing paramilitary groups.

So, too, are Mexican cartels using what were once considered to be Columbian narco-terror tactics, including the use of "Columbian neckties" and the killing of innocent civilians. In fact, the drug war in Mexico is beginning to look, feel, and sound like the worst of the drug war in Columbia in the 1980s and 1990s. In late August, eleven headless, shirtless bodies were found handcuffed together in the Merda suburb of Chichi Suarez, in Yucatan State. The nature of the as-yet-unsolved crime is considered to be one drug cartel's "warning sign" to a rival group.

Mexican civilians have even become the recent victims of explosives detonated in public spaces, something that had not previously been a concern. The use of larger-scale explosives as a method of terrorist attack started just two months after Calderón took office, leading up to last month's terrifying explosion in a crowded plaza in Morelia, the capital city of Michoacn. The attack in broad daylight was timed to coincide with Mexican Independence Day festivities: over 100 people, primarily working-class men and women who had gathered for the free celebration, were wounded in the attack. Eight people were killed, including a 13-year-old.

As was the case in Columbia, journalists are being increasingly targeted for exposing narco-cartels (or links with officials and law enforcement, as the case may be). The Chihuahua bar shooting last Thursday claimed the life of David Garcia Monroy, a well-respected columnist at the daily newspaper, El Diario de Chihuahua. That same day, the editor of La Noticia de Michoacn, Miguel Angel Villagomez, was kidnapped as he left work in the port city of Lazaro Card##as. And, on September 23, a popular Mexican radio host, Alejandro Zenn Fonseca Estrada, was shot to death with AR-15 rifles, at close range, in Villahermosa, the capital of Tabasco. According to witnesses, a van pulled up alongside Fonseca as he was hanging anti-violence posters on a major street. (According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, one of the posters read, "No to Kidnappings"). The murder remains unsolved.

According to the Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ), Mexico ranks 10th on CPJ's "Impunity Index," a list of countries where journalists are attacked or slain on a regular basis and those crimes consistently remain unsolved.

Calderón's call for decriminalization won't put a direct dent in this kind of violence, but former Seattle Police Chief Norm Stamper, author of Breaking Rank: A Top Cop's Expos of the Dark Side of American Policing, says that it's a step in the right direction toward alleviating the overflow of non-violent drug offenders in Mexican courtrooms, jails, and prisons -- something that's beginning to resemble the criminal justice landscape of the United States. Stamper, an active member of Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (LEAP), says that those comparisons need to be drawn. "Our drug policy, predicated on the prohibition model, has caused far more harm than good, locally and globally, " he says. "The results? The same as Mexico's: higher potency drugs, more readily available, and at cheaper prices than ever."

Statements like these, particularly coming from prominent members of law enforcement, would have been almost unheard of in the not-too-distant past. But these days, American public is sending strong signs that they, too, are ready for a truly different approach to drug and sentencing policies, as well as strategies on mental illness and/or substance abuse treatment. According to a nationwide Zogby poll released on October 2, three out of four U.S. voters believe that the war on drugs is failing, while over one-quarter agree that legalizing at least some drugs is the best alternative to the current strategy.

While Stamper supports Calderón's call for decriminalization, fellow LEAP activist and board member Terry Nelson says that he doesn't believe in "incremental steps," explaining that nothing short of complete legalization will bring an end to the profit-driven violence associated with the global drug trade, valued at around $500 billion per year. "To use a drug is not to abuse a drug," says Nelson. "Calderón is just trying to take some pressure off the court system with legalization, [most] of the actual crime and violence would be taken away, almost overnight."

A 32-year veteran of the military and various branches of law enforcement, Nelson's career took him on narco-traffic interdiction training and surveillance missions across Mexico, Central and South America. Nelson admits that he was involved in the Mexican Aviation Training Initiative, "designed to improve our counterparts in Mexico's professionalism in enforcing Mexican drug laws."

Some of the people Nelson helped to train ended up as Zetas, as he later found out.

Now retired and living in Fort Worth, Texas, Nelson served for five years as the Field Director of Surveillance Support Branch East (SSB East). During that time, he says, SSB East successfully seized of over 230,000 pounds of cocaine throughout Latin America. Nelson's biggest, personal drug trafficking bust happened off the coast of Ecuador, resulting in the seizure of 30,000 pounds of cocaine.

Much to his dismay, even such a large-scale bust yielded absolutely nothing by way of a drop in street supply -- or an increase in price. "If that big a bust doesn't affect the street trade," he muses, "what chances do you have doing it a gram or a kilo at a time?"

To put it another way, he asks, "if we hadn't called it a war to begin with, could we admit that we're not winning?"

See more stories tagged with: mexico, war on drugs, calderon
Silja J.A. Talvi is an investigative journalist and the author of Women Behind Bars: The Crisis of Women in the U.S. Prison System (Seal Press: 2007). Her work has already appeared in many book anthologies, including It's So You (Seal Press, 2007), Prison Nation (Routledge: 2005), Prison Profiteers (The New Press: 2008), and Body Outlaws (Seal Press: 2004). She is a senior editor at In These Times.

[Edited on 10-14-2008 by gnukid]

Skeet/Loreto - 10-15-2008 at 07:01 AM

Gnukid:
Since in you learned experience you are of the opinion that the War on Drugs is Stupid.

What is your Solution to this Problem??

Skeet

CaboRon - 10-15-2008 at 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Gnukid:
Since in you learned experience you are of the opinion that the War on Drugs is Stupid.

What is your Solution to this Problem??

Skeet

Education

oldlady - 10-15-2008 at 07:29 AM

Education..I agree...close down the high schools, colleges and universities which have become "drug stores".

flyfishinPam - 10-15-2008 at 07:29 AM

my solution to the problem is history. we should study past events and learn from them. the prohibition era in the usa comes to mind. how was that solved? i need to order some good books on the topic as it truly interests me. yes it has become a war zone in many places and the citizens who are not part of it are being caught in the crossfire more and more. it needs to stop.

Packoderm - 10-15-2008 at 07:32 AM

At the very least - just copy what Switzerland is doing. They don't seem to have drug wars raging in the streets.

capn.sharky - 10-15-2008 at 07:32 AM

Solution: How about "just say no". :lol:

Bajajorge - 10-15-2008 at 07:46 AM

Maybe gnukid and Harry Reid could get together and wave a white flag. :fire:

vandenberg - 10-15-2008 at 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Packoderm
At the very least - just copy what Switzerland is doing. They don't seem to have drug wars raging in the streets.

No, they have the druggies strung out all through the city parks. :biggrin:

Maybe we should put them all in Texas ( need lots of room ) and put a electrified fence around it :?:

Or one of those proposed moates with alligators :?:

baitcast - 10-15-2008 at 08:03 AM

Peer pressure is one thing on a kid to take that first hit but in the final analysis Mom and Dad must set the course for their kids,grass roots here as well as down there.

No demand no problem,long term cure for sure but you have to start somewhere....for today just take out the bad guys!!

redmesa - 10-15-2008 at 08:49 AM

If all the money that has spend spent doing a "crime and punishment" strategy with drugs had been spent on education, support, medical treatment, and meaningful employment we would not have a large drug issue. It is a symptom of our sick society that people in all social stratas are choosing some form of medication to deal with their lives. All the pushers are not on the streets or in our schools. If the well connected and wealthy can get their scripts, why criminalize the others who are trying to do the same.
Bravo to those that see that "crime and punishment" way has not worked ....time to look at radical options.

vandenberg - 10-15-2008 at 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by redmesa
time to look at radical options.

Maybe ...shoot them :?:

or not radical enough :?:

Martyman - 10-15-2008 at 09:20 AM

Drugs and alcohol have been abused for centuries. Good things have come from "mind opening" experiences.
I work with a lot of people and cannot believe what jerks some people are that I have daily contact with. I try to figure out why these people are such disrespectful dumbburros. I figured it out. During and after their formative years they never tried smoking pot or other recreational drugs (I'm not talking about heroin, crack or speed).
I'm serious, these people that didn't experiment a little are screwed up bad. They think of themselves as great and have no openness to other ways or compassion in their little lives.
Drugs that are abused, including alcohol, are where things go bad.
A little weed and acid is good for the soul people!
Some of the comments above about shooting people and locking them up are an example of the close mindedness I'm refering to from not trying mind-opening elixers.
Whats the deal with the proposed regulations only allowing two grams of weed? That is only a couple doobies. Legalize an ounce. :coolup:

Skeet/Loreto - 10-15-2008 at 09:44 AM

Martyman; You said it all, but I am in the Dark>
What are those "Good things from Mind opening"??

Now being only 77 years young doing more "Things" in life than some, I wonder what could be more exciting than:

Milking Cows
Riding Horses
Killing, skinning and eating Rattlesnakes
Fighting at School
Playing with Young Girl Classmates behind the Woodshed
Fighting in the Golden Gloves at Soldiers Field Chicago
Driving cars without the Owners permission{Got Caught}
Fighting in the Korean War
Flight Engineer PBY6A Flying boats
ShorePatrolman San Diego
Working in Yosemite Natl Park
Ski Patrolman
Campus Policeman

I am getting tired typing, but I never have and never will have to take DOPE to be Happy and have a Good Time.
Does that mean I am Happy and Content with my self??

I think you are "DEAD WRONG". Hope you live as long as I and have some fun.

Skeet

Pescador - 10-15-2008 at 10:34 AM

Pam is closer, in my humble opinion, to the crux of the matter. The issue is not whether or not someone chooses to use. You have the same choices with alchohol, you can use it or not use it and the biggest problem came historically when the government tried to legislate its usage. Carrie Nation and her wiley group of sidekicks surely felt that the destruction of mankind was due to the evils of alcohol and when we look back at the issue from our current perspective, we can not help but wonder what everyone was getting so worked up about. Prohibition was repealed and the only major changes were in who made the money since the gangsters and the underworld were no longer involved in the sale and distribution. We still have problems with alcohol addiction and all you have to do is read this forumn for awhile to realize that there are lots of people who have lost serious amounts of brain cells, but all in all the industry is managed pretty well.
Drugs, on the other hand seem to be the current prohibition movement and the enforcement has set up a serious struggle between the government and the distribution and sales, namely the cartels. The parallels are uncanny and I wonder about how myoptic the governments can be that they allow the killing and mayhem to continue. Mexico sure seems to be thinking outside of the box if they really manage to go through with this legalization. Literally, overnight the killing and carnage would have to stop and the governments could go about taxing this junk that people seem so bound and determined to buy. At least the governments could do what they do best, let things go, tax the sale and distribution, and waste the money they take in.
I personally would never buy, but that is not the issue here any more than the issue of tobacco which I do not buy either.

HCR - 10-15-2008 at 10:38 AM

As has been stated in so many places at so many times, if people want to take drugs, there will be drugs for them to take.

As with all "wars," the fundamental question remains--who is making money from the fighting?

Drugs will not be legalized in the U.S. as long as there are judges, prosecuting attorneys, criminal defense lawyers, drug counselors, jailers, police, insurance companies, security alarm companies, etc. ad nauseum whose very livelihoods depend upon keeping drugs illegal.

CaboRon - 10-15-2008 at 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Martyman
Drugs and alcohol have been abused for centuries. Good things have come from "mind opening" experiences.
I work with a lot of people and cannot believe what jerks some people are that I have daily contact with. I try to figure out why these people are such disrespectful dumbburros. I figured it out. During and after their formative years they never tried smoking pot or other recreational drugs (I'm not talking about heroin, crack or speed).
I'm serious, these people that didn't experiment a little are screwed up bad. They think of themselves as great and have no openness to other ways or compassion in their little lives.
Drugs that are abused, including alcohol, are where things go bad.
A little weed and acid is good for the soul people!
Some of the comments above about shooting people and locking them up are an example of the close mindedness I'm refering to from not trying mind-opening elixers.
Whats the deal with the proposed regulations only allowing two grams of weed? That is only a couple doobies. Legalize an ounce. :coolup:

Cypress - 10-15-2008 at 11:42 AM

Big Problem! The govt. can't control the supply. It's very easy to grow your own, a couple of seeds, some soil, add water, throw in a little light. Bingo! Homegrown. No taxes. Crack, meth, gas fumes, glue? Gasoline and glue are both legal.

Martyman - 10-15-2008 at 11:52 AM

No Skeet...you said it all
Nothing like "Playing with Young Girl Classmates behind the Woodshed"

toneart - 10-15-2008 at 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HCR
As has been stated in so many places at so many times, if people want to take drugs, there will be drugs for them to take.

As with all "wars," the fundamental question remains--who is making money from the fighting?

Drugs will not be legalized in the U.S. as long as there are judges, prosecuting attorneys, criminal defense lawyers, drug counselors, jailers, police, insurance companies, security alarm companies, etc. ad nauseum whose very livelihoods depend upon keeping drugs illegal.

Yep! follow the money. All of these pillars of a rigged society have a vested interest. They are all pushers.

Bajafun777 - 10-15-2008 at 12:32 PM

Ok, it is not about legalizing drugs that solves anything but more druggies and crime. The education part is one element that is needed, counseling is B.S. to the most part but A.A. and N.A. go to heart of the problem makes them admit it or until they do then the problem continues, jobs are the big one and job training is a vital part of getting people away from drugs and crime. I have worked with thousands of youths, young adults, and the 26-50 range which jobs and job training turned more of them around than anything else. You still need short term incarceration to clean their system out, to uncloud their mind for the new venture of A.A., N.A., job training, weekly drug testing, job programs even if just minimum wage, as at least it is a start to instill some self respect and motivation to go on to better jobs with the skills they attain.
Mexico has the U.S.A. beat on the vocational training schools as when they complete their training they can go work along tradesmen in whatever field they were trained on. Even in our own California Education Code their is a section that allows the U.S. and Mexico to utilize each others vocational education exchange programs but we do not as we have all of these liability issues that make attorneys rich. I have seen how putting a person off the park bench and onto a job makes a difference in someone you would cross the street to avoid before this happened. I seen the first time youths get a check for their honest labor not their crime labor how they wait to get out the door and start jumping up and down laughing and shaking each others hands. To be able to work gives you self respect and high school studies of history, government, etc. is not for everyone. Being totally vocationally trained as electricians, mechanics, geothermal workers, construction workers, solar installers, wind generator installers, welders, road crews, etc. can make them a better living than as a high school dropout that could not get the general subject studies. Now, we can debate how much more their lives would be enriched if they had this experience but dropping out of school and society is not the answer either as we know what this brings to society. So just because this is the way we always have done it is not the best way now. We should use our old closed military bases to put those that have criminal arrests that continue time and time again to be forced in A.A., N.A., meaningful job training problems and then placed out on jobs paid minimum wage by the government doing road repair, conservation in our forests to prevent fires by clearing all of the underbrush, preparing areas to prevent or lessen flooding to low areas during storms, cleaning painting and upgrading our city, county, state, and federal park systems. We spend millions of dollars on fires in California and the rest of the western states and taking these types of programs on would probably reduce those fires and why not train them to help fight these kinds of forest fires while we are at it. I do not think sending a small time user to prison is the answer but the above, in my years of work in this area, is the answer to turn a whole lot of drug problem people around. We will always have those that will use drugs, steal you and their own families blind no matter how much help they were given, do armed robberies, rape, and other harmful things to people and we definately need to lock their butts up for as long as the law will permit. Some people are just mean and all the feel good behavior health counseling, blaming society for their ills, etc. is just the crutch they want as they see "kindness as weakness" and will take you for every inch of whatever you have and still do you harm. Now, with that said Mexico is only implementing programs we also have in place and could also utilize some of these suggested above. We release youths and adults back to Mexico that are bringing kilos of the stuff over, believe me I don't like it but the federal judges think they have too much in their courtrooms and push what they call small amounts right back across the border by deportation. Mexico is right in that this drug addiction is our problem but they are one of the sources that underminds our attempts to control it with prevention by their crooks getting this poison into our Country. Later-----bajafun777

dao45 - 10-15-2008 at 10:42 PM

Do you really believe there is a solution?

Bajafun777 - 10-15-2008 at 11:11 PM

If you are asking me dao45 not a 100% solution but I believe the things I wrote in this post have a higher degree of success than running stings in neighborhoods or drug sweeps. I have what I wrote above turn more lives around than those I dealt with going on to prison, it works and is less expensive than prisons. I do not thing any of us resent giving a person a hand- up but we do resent giving them a lifetime hand out. Now, I do think from time to time those things are necessary to get the 8% who want to do you, me, our friends, and family harm off the streets and back in very secure structured environments with others of similar interests as theirs.

Packoderm - 10-16-2008 at 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg

Quote:

Originally posted by Packoderm
At the very least - just copy what Switzerland is doing. They don't seem to have drug wars raging in the streets.

No, they have the druggies strung out all through the city parks. :biggrin:

Are you talking about "needle park" which was closed in 1992?

Eugenio - 10-18-2008 at 10:42 AM

Switzerland's situation is totally different from that of the US - it doesn't have thousands of miles of border with a corrupt third world country.

(yes - I know - the US has it's own issues with corruption - but it ain't in the league as Mexico and parts south.)

Switzerland's philosophy has been to treat and not agressivelly prosecute users. But they still go after dealers and trafficers.

gnukid - 10-18-2008 at 11:28 AM

Eugenio, this is BS. CIA/Banks/Drugs is a profitable game. Mexico is a pawn.

Iflyfish - 10-18-2008 at 12:09 PM

Bajafun777 and I as well as many on this board have direct experience with the positive effects of vocational intervention strategies with addict and criminal justice populations. Addicts need ALTERNATIVES to their lifestyle that involve activities such as that Skeet proposes. If one is to change then one must engage in other activities that substitute for those that we are stopping.

Human beings need to have fun, and engage in other activities that change their mood and consciousness. Tobacco, Alcohol, Pot, Cocaine, Pumpkin Pie, Ice Cream, Exercise, Fishing, Sex, and Chocolate etc. all change our moods and are sources of pleasure. Human beings are addictive animals.... that will not change. We seek pleasure and avoid pain...unless of course the two are linked.....you will have to go to other sites for info on this. (humor folks, I digress)

I am afraid that discussions like this get off track because there are actually a number of issues being addressed at the same time. This is a multifaceted issue and no single solution will solve all of the problems. Tobacco, marijuana, peyote, and coca are all plants that grow in the wild. These plants will never be eradicated nor their use eliminated.

The USofA has been VERY successful with decreasing tobacco smoking. This is an indisputable fact. The use of tobacco in other countries such as China and India is increasing, but not so in the USofA. I believe it is instructive to look carefully at how this has happened. The US Government has supported tobacco production since the early days of it's existence. The government is intimately involved in tobacco production, regulation and distribution. The Government is at the same time highly involved in efforts to reduce tobacco useage due to it's significant negative effect on health, productivity and cost of providing services to the victims of its abuse.

What are the elements of this success? First there is government regulation, taxation and control of distribution of the product. There are clear laws for the implementation of these laws. There is adequate supply of the product for those using it. There are laws that clearly address where and in what circumstances this product can be used. There is public education about the negative effects of the use of this product. There has developed a SOCIAL STIGMA against the offensive use of this product. There is education in the schools about the harm of this product. Young people are educated about how tobacco decreases ones health and enjoyment of life.

Legalization only addresses the issue of production and distribution of this product. Legalization is an attempt to regulate the product, its production and distribution in an attempt to take the criminal element out of the business. There is the potential of decreasing the open warfare that now exists in our communities by decriminalizing and regulating this industry. This would be of social benefit to all of us.

With legalization there continues to exist the issue of how to address the problems generated by those people who abuse these drugs. I would say that it is time that we listen to people like Bajafun777 who have personal experience with remediating the problems of people who have abused and become addicted to drugs. There is a body of research on the subject. Part of the problem is that as a society we have denigrated the value of research in favor of value and opinion based decisions. There are strategies that work to help people with addiction problems. These approaches must include some sort of REAL opportunity for education, training and jobs in addition to psychological support of the sort offered by AA, NA etc. It is important to understand that no single approach will solve this problem. We will need a multifaceted approach to dealing with abuse and addiction REGARDLESS of legalization or not. Simply jailing people does not work. Increasing the War on Drugs does not work. Our communities are the battle grounds for this "War".

(On a personal note I would take a hundred "needle parks" over one incident of a grenade being thrown into a crowd of innocent people. Such acts of violence are terrorism. These acts violate the freedom of us all. I know others will disagree with this value, but that's ok, it is not my major point here. Unfortunately this might be one of the choices we will be making as it it true that addicts usually need to "hit bottom" before changing their behavior. However creating a legitimate supply for their addictions keeps these folks from breaking into my car or house to steal my electronic equipment etc.)

We must accept the fact that there will always be people who use and abuse tobacco. We cannot completely eliminate the use of a weed by those who want to use it. We should also not use arguments against parts of the solution to a multifaceted problem because it does not solve the ENTIRE problem.

I am pleased that this dialogue is happening in a public forum and appreciates the thoughtful responses. I am relieved that Calderon is looking at alternatives to the self defeating “War on Drugs”; let’s hope that the USofA is not far behind.

Iflyfish

Skeet/Loreto - 10-18-2008 at 12:28 PM

uflyfish:
That is one othe best Post on the Drug Problem that I have ever read.

Have any of you Posters ever visited Culican MX? It is a very interesting place.

Are any of you aware of any small Town or Community in the States whose residents have "Kicked the Druggies out" ??

Does our dependence on our Goverment, Fear instilled by Teachers, TV, caused our Culture become a Culture of Escape??

After Prohibition, this Country Grew with no bounds,fought several Wars, produced like no other Country, then, and this is my opinion, the 60's came along producing the "If it feels good, just do it", whereby People Felt better when they used Drugs.

Escapeism, Fear, Lack of Control for ones Actions,Lack of Punishment for Wrongdoing,.

No having used Drugs I cannot relate to a users Feelings, I just know that My Highs come from the Natural World such as The Sea, The Sunrise and Sunsets, an Eagle Soaring, a Frog Hoping, a Child Laughing etc.

Skeet

Cypress - 10-18-2008 at 01:35 PM

Solution to the drug war? Surrender! Yep! Legalize 'em. In 6 weeks the drug "problem" will be history.

There'll be some PO'd drug dealers etc., but they'll get over it. :yes:

Iflyfish - 10-18-2008 at 03:33 PM

Skeet

I am pleased that you found my post on the Drug Problem the best that you have ever read on the subject. Sometimes it is worth it I guess to express one's point of view. I would love to fish with you one day, you have had thrilling adventures in Baja and continue to do so.

You have frequently posted that you "don't get it" related to drug use, you pose lost of possible reasons for drug use i.e. " Escapeism, Fear, Lack of Control for ones Actions,Lack of Punishment for Wrongdoing". I am going to take what you say at face value, that you really don't get it and that you are not just trying to apply your values to the issue.

Have you ever considered that the wonder you feel on the sea and the thrill you feel with the hook up and release are ways that you change your consciousness and provide your body pleasure? You put a lot of time, energy, effort and dare I say money into your habit. This is why people take drugs, it feels good. It just feels good. It is important to recognize and acknowledge this if one is to address changing ones source of feeling good. If drugs did not feel good people would not use them to the extent that they are. I believe that it is important to move beyond blaming people for their abuse of substances and look at what they are really providing for people. They provide pleasure......I know that after one becomes addicted that one uses to feel "normal", however the motivation is to feel pleasure. It is human nature......think about this, simply human nature.

Once one recognizes that it is simply human nature to seek pleasure and not a moral issue, then one can start to think about solutions that provide the pleasure and minimize the harm. We aught to be thinking about how to minimize harm rather than how to stomp out the pleasure. I hope that you can better empathize with the drug user, maybe understand him/her better, so that you can start to help those people rather than condemn them. How can you ever offer a real solution to people who you say you do not understand?

I am neither condemning fishing nor drug use here, only making the point that both are engaged in for fun....to change the feeling in the body....to engage in behavior that is designed to provide pleasure. If we understand the problem, then we may be better equiped to provide a solution.

I once met a guy in Barre de Navidad, where I used to fish for Marlin (268lb) and Dorado (68lb), and I met a German who would come annually to fish for the Marlin. He totally ignored his current girlfriend, he seemed to have a different one each year. He would trash his intimate relationships to fish for Marlin. He alienated me and many more with his highly competative behavior and demeanor. My point is that he was in my view addicted to the goal of beating the record of anyone who had caught a bigger Marlin come hell or high water...a real addiction...he seemed joyless to me in his pursuit and I never saw him smile. I helped save his life and he expressed ZERO gratitute, just pimped my friend to take him fishing. I think that drugs are this way...like a fine cigar, a hot dorado, a good bottle of wine, a nice fresh joint etc. in moderation a real pleasure, used to obsession a real problem. Have you heard the term Hunting and Fishing widows? Have you seen the problems created when the husband returns and the truth outs? Damage.....relationship and brain damage. Apply this to drugs and you might start to "get it".

I have been to Culiacán, great Chinese food there! What is your point? Is it the fact that it is home to major drug trafficers that has you mentioning this beautiful city? Are you suggesting that Culiacán has "kicked the druggies out"? They have not.

Are you linking Prohibition with the growth of the USofA economy? It thought it was the end of the era of the Robber Barons/ Trusts and the New Deal/WWII and the period of peace after it that ushered us into so much growth. Maybe it was Prohibition?? (sarcasm, irony, humor, another aside), I doubt it, timing is off a bit.

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

Iflyfish

JaraHurd - 10-18-2008 at 05:48 PM

Man a lot of you folks seem to have an abundance of free time (Iflyfish..etc.). Maybe I should just be a liberal and give up on everything. The war on drugs, the war in Iraq..etc. Just give up. You know what the libs like to stick on their cars.."War is Not the Answer" Wow. Problem is..they have NO IDEA what the answer is...just like being mouthy I guess. No, some things are worth fighting over and for. I support the "stupid" war on drugs. I don't find it too hard to obey laws like not shooting up herion or selling coke or meth. I know a lot of liberals who love to smoke pot. You should meet their children...scary.....

Iflyfish - 10-18-2008 at 09:17 PM

JaraHurd,

It does take time to read, think and write. I have the honor of retirement from a long career and I guess still a need to express my thoughts. Writing in this way is my way NOT to give up on everything. It is not easy at times to express complex ideas or to face the inevitable ire that ones opinions can inspire, particularly on a subject as laden with feelings as this one. I also beleive that it is my responsibility as a person to share my knowledge and experience with others as others on this site do with me and you. This is how we form community. We are part of this community called BajaNomads and we share a lot with eachother that relates to our love of Baja. Baja and the rest of Mexico are struggling with some very serious problems that this topic involves and having some experience in the matter I believe that I might be able to shed some light on some possible solutions.

If one has only a hammer then all problems become nails. Applying the hammer to glass does not have a good outcome. I know that it is frustrating to think beyond reactions....just bomb the crap out of them....fill in the blank...however war is a failure, always a failure....in the case of nations...a failure of diplomacy. Read the great Chinese book Art of War....very old and very wise.....it advocates first and foremost diplomacy. Have you read that Iraq wants us to leave?? Odd isn't it??? They want us to leave. That is what this latest negotiation is about...they want us to leave. We are in the process of negotiating HOW to leave, not whether or not we are leaving.

As to the children of Liberals, you have to be joking. Can you imagine discussing your problems with Rush Limbaugh if he were your father? How about old Bill O'Reilly, I am sure he would listen just as well....Savage, now there is someone who a kid would really love! Give me a break.

IflyfishreadandwriteintheleasuretimethatIhaveearnedbymygoodeducationandveryhardworkformanymanyyears

JaraHurd - 10-18-2008 at 09:40 PM

To each his own I guess. Having been intimately close to many stories in my local news, I know that what I read or watch or listen to in the media is RARELY accurate. I can imagine how distorted news about issues overseas is.

I have neither the time nor desire to discuss this at length because I am tired having spent another 14 hour day battling crime and drugs. I am tired about hearing about how drug users are nonviolent and in need of help. Who actually writes stuff like that? Maybe the pot smokers you know are nonviolent (or so u think..) but the speed freaks I deal with are frequently violent with each other and sometimes strangers.

I imagine that the average person would rather have me for a neighbor than a pot smoker any day. I dont make a lot of noise, never steal from anyone and dont smoke anything. I have never been on welfare and actually pay taxes. I fish a little, bbq a little and often help marooons in my community who have had too much to drink and crash into fixed objects (I live on a busy street). I have had a full time job since I was 17 years old. I don't know what kind of career you had but I am not hardened or insensitive. I don't even know for sure which presidential candidate I am voting for for sure (although I will probably vote for the one who won't nominate ultra liberal justices to our Supreme Court....) But I do know that in my 46th year of life I am very tired of irresponsible people who simply want to pleasure themselves. I am all for people with a sense of responsibility and accountablilty. And my first name is Jon.

Skeet/Loreto - 10-19-2008 at 07:07 AM

Jon: Very well said!

Most of you Posters are very good with the Written word, I am very lacking in that skill so must go to my Experiences to relate .

NATURE;If, as some beleive, that we are descended from Animals then why do not animals seek an Unatural Substance for Pleasure??

Where does this overlying desire for PLEASURE come about to regulate Life itself to the Bottom of the Pile??

"Circumscribe my Desires and keep my Passions within Due Bounds"

thanks to all

Skeet

k-rico - 10-19-2008 at 08:08 AM

Some really interesting posts. It's Sunday morning and I'm sitting here feeding two of my three chemical addictions, caffeine and nicotine. Later today I'll probably drink some alcohol. A few beers while watching football on the garage TV while I'm turning perfectly good wood into sawdust is a regular thing.

Legalizing harder drugs, harder to control consumption, harder on your physical and mental well being seems to me to be a bad idea. Addicts of meth, coke, and heroin are in for a sorry, short, useless life, that damages not only themselves but all too often innocent others.

The war on drugs has been successful at turning organized crime into disorganized crime with orders of magnitude more violence. It hasn't stopped the crime, it has increased it. I don't know how the numbers of drug users has changed, I suspect it depends upon locality and the type of drugs.

Years ago qualudes (sp?) were a popular street pill. Not anymore because the government was successful at eliminating the manufacture of the precursor chemicals. The same could be done with meth. I read that Mexico imports/manufactures twice as many cold pills that are used in its manufacture than could possibly be used for treating colds/allergies. The pharmaceutical companies know what's going on and are profiting. There are just a handful of chemical companies that make ephedra, the basic stuff these pills are made from and meth is made from. They sell it by the 50 gallon drum. They know it is being bought for meth manufacture and profit from it. They will sell it to just about anybody. There is a company in India that is a big culprit.

For meth, a huge problem and a very nasty drug, the "war on drugs" could at least go after the legal, "respectable" pharmaceutical and chemical businesses that make its existence possible.

[Edited on 10-19-2008 by k-rico]

JaraHurd - 10-19-2008 at 08:22 AM

Skeet. Your written communications seem fine to me. I also don't consider myself much of a writer. But I do contribute in my own way. I try to be a good person. I TRY to keep an open mind. But I am SO TIRED of hearing about how we need to give more aid to people who put themselves in the situations that they find themselves. I am much more open to aid to people who can't help their circumstance..such as developmentally disable persons.

I moved into my current neighborhood four years ago. The house across the street was formerly owned by an elderly (and very quiet...I like quiet!!!) lady. Her nephew is a doper but I will get back to that... Anyway, she passed away about a year later. The house was either bought or inherited by her nephew. He claims to be a "recovering" addict. So he wanted to "give back" to the community. So what he did was buy about 12-16 cots and set up the house as a halfway house recovering addicts (parolees and probationers). Wonderful! So the City tried to start an abatement on the house after the crime rate started to rise (you think???) and they did not feel it was a good idea to have 12-16 drug addicts who were on parole and probation living in a nice residential neighborhood full of working people within TWO blocks of an elementary school and six blocks of a high school.

Much to the City's surprise, they found out that "recovering" addicts fall within the ADA and they could not evict ANYONE! ! Isn't that awesome! Kudos to the ACLU!!! So about twice a year the local SWAT team wakes me up at 3 in the morning as they conduct raids on that house. I have no idea but I will bet you some money that the Republican Party was not responsible for the loophole that allows that marooon to run that house in the midst of a hard working middle class neighborhood. By the way, the racial make up of the house is 95% caucasian in case any liberals out there are thinking along racial lines. Criminals are criminals, dopers are criminals (or atleast low-lifes who I do not want to live near) and that is the way I see it.

Most of my neighbors are liberals. But after this little experience some of them are scratching their collective heads. I am not a hateful person but I admit I am not overly patient either. I just have little sympathy for dopers and drunks. I honestly think people just like to whine about the laws that are on the books and what a drag government is. ..I understand that many of you believe the government is corrupt but honestly, that is beyond my control. I do my part, I try to set a good example to youngster, I try not to curse in front of minor and I mostly obey traffic laws (mostly...). I don't even keep all of the fish I catch anymore (but I do eat some!!). Jon

Parenting

JaraHurd - 10-19-2008 at 08:32 AM

..and I believe parenting is a big part of the solution. BUT..what if a parent occasionally smokes weed..what kind of parent do u really believe that person is???? It's ridiculous.. I am starting to beleive more and more that this is all part of God's great plan. We are just not supposed to give up. But we aren't supposed to judge either and that is where I am falling down. A whole lot of answers out there, not a lot of solutions.

Oh..and it is obvious to me why SOME of you chose to live or visit Mexico so much. Do you really think Baja benefits from visitors who use drugs? I think not.....

Short Lives?

JaraHurd - 10-19-2008 at 08:34 AM

K-Rico..I am feeling you. But you would be amazed how long these people actually live...atleast some of them. I come into contact with many of them daily. Some actually seem to be otherwise intelligent and good people. Otherwise. MUch like the gangsters I meet, I don't agree with what they are doiong but I wonder what kind of people they would have been if their circumstances (OR PARENTS!!!) in life had been ....different.

Iflyfish - 10-19-2008 at 09:10 AM

Skeet

"NATURE;If, as some beleive, that we are descended from Animals then why do not animals seek an Unatural Substance for Pleasure??"

Ever seen a cat with the weed catnip? We used to eagerly await the fall and the fermenting of the pyracantha berries. The robbins love those things and after eating enough are drunker than lords, stumble drunk, fall down drunk...we are not talking genteel drunks either....no bowel control.

Animals are easily addicted to alcohol as is well documented by animal studies.

This post started with gnukids post of an article that reports that the President of Mexico is proposing a major shift in drug policy. If enacted this legislation will have a significant effect on all of us living on both sides of the border. My comments are not made in advocacy of drug use, but in advocacy for a change in policy that could potentially take the war off the streets. There may indeed be unanticipated consequences and it may take a very long time for public stigma to become attached to drug use sufficient to modify its use, as has occurred with tobacco. I don't think anyone can truthfully say that the "War on Drugs" has been a success. I don't buy the argument that it has been successful because now there is inter gang warfare. That is even worse. Escalation of the problem is not evidence of its resolution from my perspective.

I cast no aspersions on anyone who has posted on this site. I can understand and appreciate the discouragement and anger of someone who has had their neighborhood blighted by a drug house. I know firsthand the horrors of drug addiction and abuse. I am no stranger to any of this. None of us are.

The choice as it appears to me is legalization which might stop the street violence that at this point risks the very existence of the Country of Mexico vs. the development of a multi faceted approach to the difficult problem of recreational drug use as well as the other end of the continuum that is addiction. Drug use will NEVER end and we cannot gauge success using such a criteria. People will always seek pleasure thru drug use. This is not advocacy; this is the acknowledgement of reality.

Because I speak and write well does not negate what I am saying and I don’t like the implication that somehow articulate speech is somehow obfuscation. I do apologize for my difficulty with brevity, I really wish I could write like Osprey or be as pithy as Skeet.

Iflyfish

I don't have much more to share on this subject.

Iflyfish

[Edited on 10-19-2008 by Iflyfish]

Packoderm - 10-19-2008 at 09:54 AM

I might buy what JaraHurd says if he would extend it to our legal drugs today such as caffeine, nicotine, simple sugars, and alcohol. There would be lost, violent lives to those substances if they were outlawed, stigmatized, and found only on the black market. Most of the problems with drugs center with the illicitness of them. Sure, meth is horrible, but meth combined with an illicit meth culture is a tragedy.

Losing these theoretical wars: Is that what you guys said about abandoning the war on poverty? Did we just give up?

As far as Iraq goes, we wouldn't be so much giving up, but we would instead be re-channeling our efforts toward the Afghanistan area until we capture Bin Ladin who has made a laughing stock out of us.

What would a head of a household do if he declared war on ants, but later found out it was actually the termites that were causing damage? Should he "stay the course" out of principle alone?

Did we "lose" the war on alcohol or just come to our senses? If we're going to kick a nasty addiction, we need to get off the petroleum. We could fight that war without mayhem in the streets and lost liberties.

k-rico - 10-19-2008 at 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JaraHurd
I am starting to beleive more and more that this is all part of God's great plan.

Yup, that's it.

Skeet/Loreto - 10-19-2008 at 11:19 AM

It is not the Supply Line of Drugs from Mexico that is the Majopr Problem in my Opinion, it is the rapid use even among Children.

O.K> Why? and I will approach this from my Life Experience:

As a young Lad I smoked Cedar Bark wrapped in a brown Paper Sack, later I had a couple of Beers in Korea{5 cents a Can}, then off to Baja and into some good Tequilla.

During this time as my memory serves me including a stent in South Central LA I did not observe a Grand use of Drugs! An I was a Police Official!

This all occurring prior to the Mid 60's. At about that time I became aware of the rapid use of Drugs as well as very little use in the small town of Loreto and the larger City of La Paz.

Why in such a Short Time did Drugs start into Rapid Use???. Communication, Technology, Computers?

Is the use of Drugs actually "A weakness in the Mind and Body of any given Individual" ??

If so "What can be done to Correct that Weakness before Drugs take over?? How could it be observed? of Can it be?

We can go to the Moon but are unable to test and Indiviual to determine if they may be at Risk.

k-rico - 10-19-2008 at 11:42 AM

Perhaps instead of lumping chemical substances that are illegal and are used to "get high" into one group "drugs", it woud be useful to consider the particular ones that are causing the problems. Methamphetamine, cocaine, heroin, and marijuana all have their own histories. Opiates and cannabis have been around forever. Amphetamines for around 100 years. Coco leaves processed into cocaine, what 100 years or so?

Which came first, the users or the drugs? The drugs, obviously. Why are their so many users? Because there is so much profit in providing the drugs. The pushers make sure there is ample supply.

Meth can be eliminated by tighter controls on the worldwide chemical companies that make ephedra and tight controls on the worldwide sale of over the counter decongestants, which are made from ephedra and can be reversed chemical engineered back to ephedra or its analogs.

Divide the war into separate battles on each drug, each with its own tactics, and some headway may be made. Meth seems to be the easiest to eliminate because of the need for the chemical, ephedra.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephedra

Of course strategic methods include education, law enforcement, and rehab.

Skeet, pick your drug, go to Google, and start reading about its history and manufacture. Then you'll better understand the problem.

BajaGringo - 10-19-2008 at 12:02 PM

Cigarettes kill more people than illegal drugs. I think they should be outlawed too along with alcohol and guns.

In fact I think that any activity that in any way increases the likelihood of any early death or serious harm be outlawed as well. I want us all to have nice, safe padded boxes to live in without any electrical outlets where toddlers could get electrocuted, swimming pools of course will be banned because we know so many drown in those each year. Cars have no place in this "safe" society as we all know how many die in those dangerous things too each and every day. Planes can kill lots of folks in one crash so they are big no-no's. Ships can sink so we better figure out a way to make bridges across all the oceans. No motorcycles either. Transportation will be by horse, bicycle or just walking. Maybe horses and bikes are too dangerous so maybe just walking. I am sure that I am missing many more things that should be outlawed for the greater, common good and I know that all you here can help me with some of your own ideas.

Or we could just live in a society where each person is responsible for them self, parents responsible for their kids and let people live their lives as truly free people to make their own choices in life (good or bad) and deal with the consequences where they err. The alternative is to create a police state - something the US seems to resemble more and more each and every day.

But what do I know...

[Edited on 10-19-2008 by BajaGringo]

Police State?

JaraHurd - 10-19-2008 at 12:37 PM

Yeah I agree BajaGringo. Let's just let people do what they want to do. Wouldn't that be awesome? Like I have said before, most of us have no problem obeying the law. Do you? If you do, then I am glad you live south of the border. I don't have all the answers..but I know there have to be some rules. By the way, if you live in Baja how do you know what is going on stateside on a daily basis?

BajaGringo - 10-19-2008 at 01:12 PM

I have family in law enforcement in the USA and see what is going on in the streets and courts of the USA. If you look at the real growth in police - local and federal, laws, regulations as well the tactics used - yes, it is slowly looking more and more like a police state. I have lived in a police state before, have you? I know what they look like. I personally have no incline to use any substance "currently" on the US government list of "outlawed" substances but I have observed in my 50+ years how the US government has taken an ever increasing role in the daily lives of its citizens, creating more and more laws and a system through which to "process" all these "law breakers". A system which has in turn created a huge revenue source for said government. If I could see some small, positive benefit out of this same system I might be able to find the "greater good" in an ever greater government presence in the daily life of its citizens. Instead all I have seen is the loss of personal freedoms, out of control government spending and ever increasing taxes to pay for all this government that now takes over 50% of the gross income on average from its citizens to pay for all this government. During the same time drug use has increased, not decreased. Obviously the current system is not working. But why let that small fact get in the way of throwing some more money at it...

The only way to completely control the behavior of people is via a police state. Somehow the USA survived in decades past with just basic laws to protect the general public that existed when the USA was founded. "Drugs" like opium, alcohol and others were used legally. If someone infringed upon the rights of others while using those "drugs", they were punished for those "crimes", not the fact that they chose to use alcohol or some other drug while committing that crime. It's just personal responsibility or we end up handing that over to the government with all of our money to to pay for that task.

All I am saying is that people are going to use it if they really want it, illegal or not. Don't believe me? Outlaw cigarettes and see how many criminals we will create overnight...

[Edited on 10-19-2008 by BajaGringo]

Iflyfish - 10-19-2008 at 01:27 PM

Skeet your write

"......I will approach this from my Life Experience: As a young Lad I smoked Cedar Bark wrapped in a brown Paper Sack, later I had a couple of Beers in Korea{5 cents a Can}, then off to Baja and into some good Tequilla."

It is good that you do have experiences of your own to inform you as to why people use substances. Not all use is abuse and not all use is addiction. It sounds like you used but did not become addicted to neither Cedar Bark nor Alcohol and for that you can be grateful. I mention this because it is important to understand why people use drugs. This helps us all not demonize other people who are behaving in very human and predictable ways. I don’t think less of you for smoking Cedar Bark nor drinking 5 cent beer. There is however no accounting for taste I must admit. It is clear that you, like most young people need to have their own experiences to decide what place Cedar Bark and other substances will play in their lives.

You ask a legitimate question as to why drug use has increased after WWII and particularly in the 1960's. I have both personal experience and have read extensively on the subject. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay area and had friends who rented houses on the Panhandle when rents were cheap and the living was good. I attended the Electric Cool Aide Acid Test, many "Human Be Ins" and other events of this nature. I witnessed the decline that drug abuse created and know people who died from abuse. I worked in Psychiatric Hospitals in the Bay Area at the time talked down many on bad Acid trips.

I think that it is important to understand that after WWII there was a major shift of population from rural areas and farms to the city. "How do you keep 'em on the farm once they've seen Pari?" remember that old song? Urbanization broke down many of the kinship bonds that held rural communities together and children of those who moved to the city needed to develop new identities that did not relate to their parents rural roots. The "Hippie" movement in part provided an appealing alternative to the "buttoned down" lifestyle of "Father Knows Best" and "Leave it to Beaver". Drugs, Sex and Rock and Roll are very appealing and particularly so to young people who are about the business of forming an identity and whose hormones are raging. These young people were failed by a government policy of demonizing marijuana and its users. The government developed a propaganda campaign to address the growing use of this substance; one used by both Native people and our Founding Fathers, and did so by lying about its effect. See the film Reefer Madness as an example. This approach seemed like a very bad joke when young people found that its use did not drive them any more crazy than did hair grow on their palms for engaging in other socially frowned upon behavior. The younger generation learned not to trust their elders and Nixon/Agnew reinforced these feelings as did the Viet Nam War. Students at the time had both leisure time, education and a sense of the limitless bounds of things. In this context a “Great Society” and a “Journey to the Moon” were all possible; if we could dream it we could make it, that generation grew up in a time of relative stability and tremendous growth. They sky was the limit and for good and ill that generation knew few bounds. http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/mj005.htm

Drug use appears to wax and wane during our history, each generation it seems needs to learn its lessons i.e. the latest generation is appalled by tobacco use and uses little of it compared to your generation where it was widely uses including in movies and even hospitals. Prohibition was never used with Tobacco and yet a major decrease of its use has occurred. When I first trained in hospitals I smoked a pipe, unimaginable in these days. However in China it is common to see a Physician who is smoking a cigarette. After the Civil War there was a crisis in this country over the use of morphine. Later a crisis emerged over the use of Cocaine, recall the blues song of the ’40 that goes “Cocaine is for horses, it’s not for men, they say it will kill you, but they don’t say when, cocaine…running through my brain.” Cocaine was found in common products like Coca Cola and eventually became regulated. Others have suggested that you and others interested in this subject do some research on your own on the history of each of these drugs and I think that is a very good idea. These drugs and their effects are not all the same, nor is how we need to address them the same.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 10-19-2008 at 01:40 PM

BajaGringo

Well said. You can boil a frog by putting it in cool water and then slowly raising the temperature, throw it into boiling water and it will jump out. We are in many ways less and less free in the USofA, but it is hard to see as these changes are often small and incremental. Every day I seem to read of the latest infringement on our Constitutional Rights in the USofA in the name of "Homeland Security" and "War on Terrorism" is it a war on terrorism to listen to the bedtime conversations of the military and their spouses? When did it become ok with you for the telephone company to set up warrantless wire taps on the phones of people without FISA Court agreement? Did that happen....you bet your booty...and did Congress react to protect your rights....you bet....absolved the Telephone Companies from prosecution for this violation of the Constitution. Our frog is well cooked by this point. Mexicans in many ways have more freedom than we do in the USofA and I hope that as they address this most serious issue in such a way that they will not become the sort of police state that their cousins up north, between Mexico and Canada that is, have become.

Iflyfish

JaraHurd - 10-19-2008 at 01:46 PM

Baja Gringo.

I don't know why you live south of the border. I don't care either. If I am lucky I will too. Based on past threads your credibility is questionable so, unlike others, I don't pay you much attention. This whole thread is one that keeps coming up over and over again in society. I don't have all the answers, I just know how I live my life. The thought of legalziing illicit street drugs does not appeal to me. The liberals seem to want this done. I like the quote by Winston Churchills regarding people who are not conservatives by age 40. But he was only one man and maybe he was wrong too. Maybe some day in the future the situation will improve, who knows.

BajaGringo - 10-19-2008 at 01:52 PM

Post deleted in the spirit of playing nice...

:bounce:

[Edited on 10-19-2008 by BajaGringo]

JaraHurd - 10-19-2008 at 02:04 PM

Sorry about you being picked on. I don't mean to be a troll. I don't like bullies and it sounds like your little feelings have been hurt. I am sorry. I will stop.
I am not big on rehashing the same old drivel. And you don't really want an opposing view point, you just want to make a few contacts and show everyone how passionate you are about the issue. I don't have to justify who I am or what I believe to you or anyone else. I know I have made my contribution to society. And I intend to keep on doing so. I suspect that none of us will find out who was right until we are long gone anyway. In the meantiime, it is potato chips, Dr Pepper and tuna sandwiches and an NFL game before I go to work tonight.

Have a good day and remember..it is always best to tell the truth. I would like to buy a house in Baja someday and would like to do so from an honest soul...they can be hard to find.....Jon

BajaGringo - 10-19-2008 at 02:16 PM

Post deleted in the spirit of playing nice...

:bounce:

[Edited on 10-19-2008 by BajaGringo]

Eugenio - 10-19-2008 at 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Eugenio, this is BS. CIA/Banks/Drugs is a profitable game. Mexico is a pawn.

Nice sound argument gnukid - you win - Mexico's a pawn.

Next topic?

k-rico - 10-20-2008 at 12:47 PM

"The Arellano Felix brothers – Benjamin, Ramon, Javier – moved in from Sinaloa and provided the perfect springboard. From their Tijuana stronghold, they controlled trafficking routes into California, the biggest drug market in a country that is the biggest consumer of cocaine in the world."

Interesting short history about the TJ cartel.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/06/world/fg-arellano6

Iflyfish - 10-20-2008 at 04:49 PM

K-rico

Thanks for this informative post. Remember Joe Kennedy, father of JFK, Robert Kennedy, Edward Kennedy...he was a US Ambassador and made the family fortune during Prohibition running booze. After Prohibition he was well placed to go legit.....another model of what is possible with legalization. Where will the Cartels go? Many will become legitimate businessmen.

Iflyfish

dao45 - 10-20-2008 at 05:11 PM

here we go again

Hay no Problema

MrBillM - 10-20-2008 at 05:45 PM

What's the big deal ? NONE of those being whacked are future Physicians, Scientists, Engineers or CEOs.

There are a lot of extra people on the continent.

It will all sort itself out.

shari - 10-20-2008 at 05:53 PM

I once saw a deer take just one bite of an amanita (sp?) mushroom....what impressed me was she took just one nibble and moved on...and seemed to know where to bite. I subsequently noticed that several of these highly hallucinagenic mushrooms has deer bites out of them.....but just one. Nature of the beast?

Iflyfish - 10-20-2008 at 10:04 PM

Shari,
This could account for the spots on the fawns! They also seem to be very considerate and see well at night.
Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 10-20-2008 at 10:07 PM

MrBill,

Tell that to the parents of the two twelve year old girls killed recently in drug shoot outs. The terror from these incidents affects all who are exposed. These are crimes against humanity that create terror and have long term psychological ramifications for those exposed. Ever heard of PTSD?

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 10-20-2008 at 10:09 PM

Shari

We once had an indoor rabbit that would drink red wine to the point of intoxication if you left a wine glass on the floor, which we were want to do when we were young.

Iflyfish

dao45 - 10-20-2008 at 11:52 PM

where exactly did you see these mushrooms?And if possible send me the deers address or phone number

Mexitron - 10-21-2008 at 03:29 AM

Shari--interesting observation. I recall a book written some years ago by a man who had done quite a bit of research on animals feeding habits--he'd found that their "drug use" was rather common. For example--cattle would browse on poppies when food was scarce, ostensibly to get a little medication to ease the hunger pangs.

k-rico - 10-21-2008 at 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
Where will the Cartels go? Many will become legitimate businessmen.

Iflyfish

I suspect many already have, particularly in real estate development along the coast between TJ and Ensenada and in Cabo. Don't forget, this has been going on for decades. Several years ago I was speaking with an old time "real estate agent" in Rosarito about how to transfer funds for a purchase. He chuckled, and said he has seen suitcases full of cash.

Also, scattered about TJ are huge, walled in, elaborate houses. It's hard to imagine legitimate ways in TJ to get the money to build them.

Probably, the really rich retired traffickers are living in Coronado, La Jolla, and Rancho Santa Fe, members of the finest San Diego country clubs.

[Edited on 10-21-2008 by k-rico]

Iflyfish - 10-21-2008 at 07:43 AM

As a young man I assisted a researcher who was placing electrodes in the pleasure centers of rats (electrode implantation self stimulation studies). The rats would hit a bar to stimulate that area of the brain. Those little suckers would eschew food, water and sex for a hit of juice to that area of the brain. Some would stimulate to the point of death. Sound familiar?

Ever heard of loco weed? As a kid in North Dakota I saw cattle drunker than lords on the stuff.

Check this out: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Animals-on-Drugs-41500.shtml

A brief Google search of the terms “animals drugs” will reveal a wealth of information, stories etc. K tal animal? Sorry for the poor spelling.

Iflyfish

k-rico - 10-21-2008 at 07:48 AM

"placing electrodes in the pleasure centers"

Now there's a legal alternative that would put the cartels out of business.

Did the researcher get past animal studies?

What's he doing these days?

Skeet/Loreto - 10-21-2008 at 09:00 AM

Sometines if not always we tend to forget>

"Guns do not Kill People_People Kill People""

Brugs do not Kill People- People Taking Drugs by Choice and selection Kill themselves and Others".

vandenberg - 10-21-2008 at 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dao45
where exactly did you see these mushrooms?And if possible send me the deers address or phone number

Why ??
Trying to change your moniker to doa08 :?:

Iflyfish - 10-21-2008 at 10:29 AM

k-rico

Actually there are neurofeedback proceedures that provide an opportunity to experience transcendant states with out drugs. This is called the alpha/theta crossover state and it is a remarkable experience. This proceedure has been used successfully with Alcoholics who report "religious awakening" experiences. See studies on the Dina (Hopi) and Neurofeedback. After this experience the relapse rate was found to be very low in this study.

You have regressed Skeet. I really thought you were interested in learning something new.

Mushrooms don't kill deer, deer kill mushrooms and kildeer kill bugs!

I certainly hope I am not killed by my Lovastatin! I will watch the blood pressure meds though, thanks for the heads up.

Iflyfish

Skeet/Loreto - 10-21-2008 at 11:13 AM

uflyfish:

O. K.. What is new??

It is a FACT that a Human Being makes a Choice to take Drugs.

It is not the Drugs!

There is something missing in the Physic of any person who"Thinks" he/or she needs drugs to get along in this World.

The Durgs do not Jump up and force the Mouth open, nor can the needle go in with out the Pressure.

You all seem to put the blame on the Drug. Someone has to make a consious decesion to take drugs just as the person needs to do to pick up a Gun and shoot someone..
Skeet

Iflyfish - 10-21-2008 at 11:56 AM

Skeet

You are of course correct when you say “It is a FACT that a Human Being makes a Choice to take Drugs”. This thread is about a proposed change in Public Policy as to how to address the problem of open warfare on our streets that stems from the business of drug manufacture, distribution, use and abuse. One of the points I have been trying to make, and perhaps not doing so well at it, is that human beings have always taken drugs, or altered their consciousness and they always well. It would appear that this tendency is also cross species, which is where we are in the discussion at this point. I believe it is important to recognize this FACT when considering how to address this very important issue.

If I were to extrapolate on your statement that the root cause of this problem is that Human Beings make a Choice to take Drugs I would then need to address the problem that we now face by somehow changing the choice that people are making. This would of course lead one to consider approaches that address the issue of Choice or how to influence people to make a different choice i.e. “Just Say No”. Research has shown clearly that abstinence policies do not work. The best way to avoid unwanted pregnancies is to increase the years of education for women. It appears that the more education women have, the fewer children they have and the more likely they are to use effective birth control. We will NEVER be successful at stopping teen experimentation with sex. We have however decreased the number of pregnancies by better educating the population. We will NEVER eliminate drug use by abstinence only policies. How about a “War on Teenage Sex”? How about locking up all those horny teens, and you to boot for your escapades behind that barn? These problems are best addressed by multifaceted approaches that deal with a number of issues at the same time and education and access to legitimate income and identity had better be a part of the mix.

I am not advocating for drug use and well understand that addiction is a very real and devastating phenomenon. I know people who have died using drugs and know families and communities devastated by drug use. I only hope that the poor dear eating the amanita does not run into a hunter and confuse them with the goddess.

I am not blaming the DRUG! I am acknowledging the fact that human beings have always and will always use drugs. The issue is how best to address the problems that we are presented with by this fact.

Now that human beings have guns there will always be those who shoot others with them. The challenge for all of us is how to craft public policy so that the least harm is done by the fact that human beings have and use guns. We will never be successful in banning guns, though there are other countries where guns are used i.e. Canada, just to our north, who has a much lower incidence of deaths resulting from the use of guns.

Try an experiment, or continue the one you propose, apply your logic to guns. Imagine the government starting a "War on Guns"...where would this lead? Would blaming all gun owners for the abuse of some gun owners be appropriate? Should we condemn all gun owners and say we cannot understand their Neanderthal tendencies to shoot fellow sentient beings? Should we lock them all up? Should we celebrate when they shoot each other? Should we condemn all gun owners as immoral and a danger to society?

I wonder also if it would be possible, and I know it’s a stretch, for you to acknowledge a good point when it is made. This is of course optional, but I think useful in a genuine discussion of differences.

Thanks,

Iflyfish

gnukid - 10-21-2008 at 12:25 PM

Its not necessary to speculate about where or how drug trade persists. The facts are documented, reported, published and admitted though it seems many people are unwilling to accept the truth that the CIA and their counterparts are drug trafficers and they are not your friends. Perhaps its easy to become confused by the many falsehoods published and repeated in combination with truths.

First, lets keep in mind some basic facts:

Drug traffic is among the largest business in the world. Big business is not ignored by big businessmen. Who are the largest businesses?

Drug trafficking requires the transfer of large sums of money, large shipments of drugs such as cocaine from Columbia, Heroine from Afghanistan and pharmaceutical materials. Drug trafficking requires large distribution networks to every city in the world. All of these are traceable and documented. Reports are common which prosecute some offenders.

Drugs are a huge burden on the population, drug abuse costs are high.

Drug policing programs are huge and growing fast, our prison population from drug offenses is massive and growing. Prisons are hugely profitable businesses. Now with 1:100 in jail we have 1 of every 100 people in the US in slave labor prison, and the numbers are growing.

Now, everyone one of us know about Iran-Contra where the CIA under H.W. Bush was caught, again, and admitted they trafficed drugs, cocaine and created crack cocaine which they flooded markets with such as LA. Yet, many of those convicted are in the whitehouse today including Oli North. These events didn't stop or end there as the same people are still in power doing the same thing? If you have any questions about Iran-contra look at the old news reports from La Times and there are videos of the agents themselves.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1076

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/aug2001/cont-a01.shtml

1) CIA traffics huge shipments of drugs via of a network of planes on pre-approved routes by high level government figures. Reports of trafficking through Mean, AK under Clinton administration while Governor and through Florida under Gov Bush, Texas under G.W. Bush and through border states under tunnels, shipping, containers via routes through government check points.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=10...

http://www.madcowprod.com/09102008.html

2) Large banks legally launder money. Corporate Board of Directors members are not required to document large transfers while each of us do. Banks such as HSBC, Santander, BOA are huge in this capacity.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4159/is_/ai_n1275916...

http://www.bobsguide.com/guide/news/2008/Feb/5/HSBC's_money-laundering_trial_begins.html

So, please to the natsayers who place blame on poor people in bad neighborhoods and small time distribution networks for the drug sales, I respect your right to your viewpoint however the facts speak for themselves as do the agents involved.

Drugs are generated, marketed and flooded to markets where they do the most damage and gain the most profit by those in the power to do so. The criminals are not primarily poor weak-minded people, the criminals are those businesses who run the distribution and profit from it and we know who they are, the question is are you willing to stand up and speak to the issue and criticize those in power who profit? I doubt it.

Skeet/Loreto - 10-21-2008 at 02:23 PM

Uflyfish:

Very well said and Taken.

Now Gnukid you are doing the very thing that some of those Weak-minded Berlerley Graduates have been doing for the past 20 years,

You are blameing Big Business, the CIA, and anyone who works hard and makes a Buck for the USE OF DRUGS!!

nO MATTER HOW uNLEARNED YOU ARE, YOU NEED TO GET AWAY FROM THE bLAME gAME AND LOOK AT THE lOGICAL fACTS.

CAUSE AND -EFFECT- Demand and Supply

I know that the Drug Problem will never be completely solved:
I know that All people do not grow up to make the same decesions in a given situtation.

Why is it that certain Humans cannot "Control their Desires and keep their Passion with due Bounds'??

Why???---If it feels Good , Do It.??

Iflyfish - 10-21-2008 at 02:28 PM

I have hear estimates that marijuana is the second largest agricultural crop in California, Oregon, Washington and British Columbia. That is staggering and speaks to the very issues that gnukid addresses. This is BIG BUSINESS, very big business.

It would appear that the issue Calderon faces is whether or not to continue the very expensive and dangerous game of whack a mole and escalate into a police state, in hard economic times, or try a new approach to the problem. I am impressed that he would look at another way to approach this problem. If he does legalize I hope he will also require the state to take over quality control, distribution and taxation as well as provide extensive resources for treatment, education and job training/work placement for people having problems with these drugs. The problems of addiction will not go away with legalization, but over time other social approaches like those mentioned above may mitigate againt use and abuse.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 10-21-2008 at 03:17 PM

Skeet

"Very well said and Taken." Thank you. I appreciate your saying that. Reasonable people can disagree, the quality of relationships depend upon how they disagree.

"Why is it that certain Humans cannot "Control their Desires and keep their Passion with due Bounds'? Why???---If it feels Good , Do It.??"

I believe that this is just human nature. I believe that both nature and nurture are involved in the equation; some are better put together than others around dealing with their impulses. For an interesting read I would recommend to anyone The Curious Incident of The Dog in the Night. It is a book on Autism and is the account of a young man with Autism. You will be amazed at his perspective and it will surely be different than yours. That is nature. Some people are born without Conscience and some people lose that Conscience due to developmental experiences. These people see you as an object to use to their pleasure or to destroy if you get in their way and are called Sociopath and Psychopath. For a study of the Psychopath I would recommend the biography of Carl Chessman, San Francisco's Red Light Killer. Carl was bounced about from foster home to foster home and as one point gave up and decided to get revenge. Rape is after all not really a sex crime, but a crime of rage and Carl was full of rage.

It is very hard to predict who will kill another with a gun. We are all capable of killing, the issue seems to have to do with our nature i.e. impulsiveness, history of abuse etc. and on context, most domestic killings are done as “crimes of passion”. It would seem that there is no single explanation as to why one would kill and another would not. Behavior is multiply determines and must be understood on a case by case basis. No one size fits all and that can be frustrating as we look for simple answers to complex problems. I believe that you can apply the same thinking to the question you are asking about drug use. It sounds like this is the issue that you are having a hard time getting your head around. I too have pondered this. Why could I have drank like a fish in my youth and pick it up and put it down for long periods in my life and seem to have suffered no ill effects? Why could I smoke pot in my youth and not become addicted? I have seen others who have used less than I did who got strung out and died. Go figure. Some races apparently do not have the enzymes to metabolize alcohol effectively and to them alcohol is a poison, why not for me? Luck of the draw, very good luck indeed. I feel fortunate as should you that you did not become addicted to what you smoked behind the barn or to the beer you had in Korea……many did not have your good fortune.

Now Hagen Dass Frozen Coffee Yogurt, there is another matter for me. I can eat an entire carton at a sitting, and often do. Others can ration their intake and I admire them their restraint, some don’t even like Hagen Das Frozen Coffee Yogurt. Imagine that if you can!.

Differences Skeet, just differences.

By the way, gnukid is pointing out the significant role that business plays in the manufacture and distribution of this product. It is important to recognize that this is big business if one is to develop strategies to confront the problem. It may be that the vested interests of the people engaged in this business is such that they will not want change and will do whatever they can to protect their product and markets from competition. If one focuses only on the perceived “character flaws” of the user, it can be a herring that takes on off the trail of the real issue and that issue is how to stop the war that is occurring on our streets over this product. I think that thinking like a business man can be very useful in thinking about what to do about this business. C Wright Mills, the Sociologist once said that Social Change occurs when “personal problems become public issues”, there is great truth in that. We may be at that point now in our history. A very good example of this is how we now view Alcoholism as a disease rather than as a moral flaw. This has provided us with a valuable perspective from which to develop intervention strategies and social programs to address the needs of the population who suffer from this terminal illness. Words are important, they have meaning and underlie our understanding and thinking about problems. If we start out with the wrong premise, we will always reach the wrong conclusion. If we view the problem of drug abuse and addiction as a moral problem then we will miss the larger picture of the context of its use and abuse and the possible points of intervention into these dynamics.

My hat is off to Mexico for considering this bold strategy, I hope they think it through and don't do this either by halfs or on the fly.

Iflyfish

gnukid - 10-21-2008 at 03:57 PM

To compare the victims in this offense to the perps is absurd.

First off, desperate people are easy targets for highly addictive drugs which are being targeted, designed and created with new variations in a highly sophisticated manner. It's not pot or mushrooms, qualudes or mescaline or any of the things some of you heard of in the 60's though those were also distributed in the same network. Today, its methamphetamine, crack cocaine, cocaine, crystal meth, heroine, pcp and variations which may even be mixed and sold to unaware prospects (youth) in marijauna or hand rolled tobacco cigarettes to trick people into starting and then wanting more.

Go ahead and deny that the CIA and its foreign counterparts working with banks have targeted an assault on civilians in the form of a long running drug distribution program, or say its a big unintended mistake, or deny that creates a massive worldwide market for cash investment, black market for drugs, stolen goods, weapons and now more and more prisons and slave labor camps, or deny that it affects our economy and the price of everything which naturally increases with increased cash flow.

Drug trade affects your 401k and the inflation index of your social security checks.

To reduce drug trade means all of your numbers would go down by at least 10%. Are you willing to give up 10-20% of the value of your assets to end the false drug war. I imagine most would say no.

Most people are too afraid to admit the truth which is laid out in front of them daily and accept that the drug trafficker isn't a weak vagrant person on their street. The drug assault is coordinated by a vast network of wealthy agents, all of whom are well paid and well known, connected and powerful who benefit heavily from drug trade in a purposely illegal manner.

There is a choice whether to make drugs a crime which incentivizes drug trade or to end the system of criminalizing drug which expands the black market, prison labor, prisons and drug trade by leaps and bounds, and at an increasingly exponential level.

The drug market is so ubiquitous, corporations and power brokers must currently participate in laundering, accept investment and even invest in futures in the market or find themselves limited for future investment. You are in or out, but you can't be both. As bankers and special agents today, if you refuse to particiipate or play the game you are targeted and dismissed, usually with charges or attempt on your life as we know from so many public stories.

http://www.dunwalke.com/4_Narco_Dollars.htm

This goes all the way from private funds to public funds in gov work such as HUD which had apparently trillion in slush funds, or this recent 700 billion- trillion bailout (where is the money spent?), or the floating defense budget.

Do you recall when Rumsfeld said 2.3 trillion was unaccounted in the DoD in 2001?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kpWqdPMjmo

or
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article5085.html

or 3.3 trillion missing from the treasury in 2004
http://www.rense.com/general70/trill.htm

Its much easier to imagine drugs come from lil juanito down the street who sells to his lazy uncle.

Skeet/Loreto - 10-21-2008 at 03:58 PM

I must say that this has been the most enlighting experience I have had on this Board!

Makes you Think: Here I am a 77 year old gesser with Multiple Experiences able to ask Questions and get some very good response.

I do the same thing with DairyQueen Blizzards; But after this Triple Bypass I can now go by a Dairy Queen and not STop!!
For you Youngsters: Always check with your Doctor if you start getting Week in your Body and between the Legs. It might save your Life!!

Uflyfish: Are we really discussing "Survival of the Fitest'??

Iflyfish - 10-21-2008 at 05:40 PM

Skeet,

Gotta love the internet....so much to learn....like the Library of Congress at our finger tips.

I can relate to the Dairy Queen addiction, make mine Oreo please, large!

Thanks for the heads up on the blood flow issues, it pays to know from someone who knows.

I am glad I had some time over the past couple of days to engage in this dialogue, it has gotten my synapses snappin and my digits diggin at the old keyboard.

The fittest do survive, it is just hard to identify which variation will ultimately be the most equiped to survive. I have an idea for an invention. That would be a thumb brace for those using blackberries and other devices that force one to use their thumbs for typing....got to create carpal tunnel one would think....now if we adapt over time to this can you imaging what the future thumb will look like?

gnu-kid

You ain't just making that stuff up. I appreciate the documentation. You neglected to mention lil Juanito's address.....u2u please (humor folks, weak attempt at humor)

gnukid - 10-21-2008 at 06:23 PM

When I was young my Mom would say, "look it up", now I say to her, "look it up" though I understand its hard (disappointing) to read this stuff, especially in this context (jaunito).

But, as we become capable of critical discussion (we did it) and empirical thinking we are empowered and unable to be corrupted and coerced. And, the sooner that we embrace the truth the sooner we can overcome enabling these paradigms of our own destruction.

Now is our time, power to the people.

dao45 - 10-22-2008 at 01:53 AM

Would one of you please tell the deer to call me?

fishbuck - 10-22-2008 at 03:33 AM

Pot is already legal in California for medical use. The law is written very broadly so almost any medical condition qualifies.
When I broke my collarbone a while back I was having a very difficult time to lay down and heal.
So I membered from my youth that smoking some pot might just help me do that.
I went to the Pot Doc and got my recomendation Card. With that I could walk into any of the Medical Marijuana Coops and buy up to 1 ounce per day or grow my own. There are alot of these coops. And the pot is unbelievably strong. Guarenteed to make you lay down and watch tv all day.
A recomendation is good for 1 year but needs to be renewed at 6 months with a follow up visit to the Pot Doc. I let mine run out because it was just to hard on my lungs.
Plus I was back to work by then and subject to testing. The federal government does not acknowledge California law on the issue.
I think it is a good idea because it is regulated by the state. And no way would I buy street pot when I can safely walk into a little pot store and buy from about 10 different varieties including certified organic pot!
Just legalize it all and let the chips fly. It's better than the stupid drug war.
Okay time for a beer!

[Edited on 10-22-2008 by fishbuck]

Skeet/Loreto - 10-22-2008 at 07:27 AM

Gnukid:
You finally came out with you very true Thinking"Power to the People".

I feel sure that you meant "Poorer People" or would it be Younger People? or maybe Older People??

When I was in College so many years ago I spent some time on different Politics and the Use of Power by Groups of People>

The one Thing that I learned about that Excersie is that you will be more Powerful in the End if you "Build Up" instead of Tear Down. Something the Commies and Socias have still yet to Learn.
That is one reason they have been unsucessful. Think about it_ You don't want to get on that Horse unless you can control it!!!!

Skeet.

Iflyfish - 10-22-2008 at 08:01 AM

There are Medical Marijuana laws in many states now. All managed differently. Some have dispensaries and some do not. All are in contrast to the Federal Law which still Criminalizes ALL use. Obama has stated his plan is to decriminalize. He admits that he inhaled, finally one with courage and honesty on the subject.

I hope that with State and Federal Laws in accord that there will be more research on the canabanoids, the active ingredient in marijuana. There are a number of these canabanoid molecules in marijuana and each has a different effect. Some are stimulating while some are soporific. Some are very good at relieving pain, ocular pressure and other discrete effects. Research has been very limited on the effect of these compounds due in part to the criminalization of its use. The human brain has canabanoid receptors, many of them, and this is of great interest and of great potential benefit to us. There may come from this plant a number of specific compounds of medicinal value. The current research is now underground and being done by growers who having been forced underground have mixed the native varieties of the new and old world. Today’s pot is not your daddy’s pot.

For those who have trouble smoking there are devices that vaporize the active ingredients so one does not need to scar ones lungs in order to extract the active ingredients.

This drug has powerful medical effects as an anti inflammatory and pain medication. Those who live in states that have legalized it’s medical use are fortunate to have an easy to grow, inexpensive alternative available to pharmaceutical drugs that perform the same functions.

A word of caution, there is no free lunch, and with all drugs there are potential side effects and potential harm in misuse and abuse. Again, I am not advocating for the use of drugs. I have seen functional neuroimaging studies that demonstrate brain damage from prolonged and excessive use of alcohol, cocaine, and marijuana. We all are familiar with the famous Cheech and Chong characters and their wacky ways. That “dopiness” is evidence of brain damage, so users beware. There is also something affectionately called “the munchies” which can add on unneeded pounds.

Skeet

Don't look now but Social Security and Medicare are Socialist programs. Scandanavia ain't doing so bad. There are inherant flaws in Capitalism, and we are seeing this now, wealth accrues to the few where Socialism and Communism sap the creative juices of a society, why do anything if generativity and creativity are not rewarded and if the state provides every thing for you. A proper balance is what succeeds in societies.

Iflyfish

gnukid - 10-22-2008 at 08:58 AM

First, basically San Diego, San Bernardino and Merced had opposed the medical marijuana Card legalization program but they were sued by the ACLU and lost. Then they filed Appeals. This week the Supreme court decided not to consider the appeals. So as of yesterday, Oct 21st, medical marijuana is legal in all of California and counties and cities must recognize this and provide cards and locations to distribute medical marijuana today.

As many people know, San Diego is dominated by Federal military and their presence and population has altered the mood of what was once a great place. This case reasserts the role of the individual and their rights within the state over the dominance of the Federal and military over the civilians.

The success of case demonstrates the Power of the People to determine the laws and direction of their communities.

In reality nothing was overturned or changed, simply reaffirmed, the court said current State laws and citizens rights must be respected.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20081017-9999-1m17p...

http://www.northcountytimes.com/articles/2008/07/31/news/san...

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v08/n945/a01.html

And every marijuana patient may have caregivers who may legally carry marijuana for them under their own marijuana caregiver cards-attached to a patient's card-check with your doctor and county-they must comply by law, today.

[Edited on 10-22-2008 by gnukid]

Skeet/Loreto - 10-22-2008 at 10:57 AM

To All:

There is a Glaring absense in this discussion of Drugs,Their Use, Their Effect, and what do do about them: That is the Effect up on the Innocent!!

That Person that takes a Drug to the Point they are uncontrolled are putting my Life in Danger for their own <Misguided, weak-minded, desires!!
\
I can Swim with the Sharks, Jump out of an Airplane, Ski a Cornice at Mammouth, do many things that puts my Life at Stake, but to walk down a Road and have a DRUGGIE run over and kill me is not acceptable in my way of Thinking.
Some how we as a Society of Humans must learn that we do not have to take Drugs.
Would it change us if 20 million People died overnite from Drugs?? I think not. Might it be that there will be a new world someday with out Drugs??

BajaGringo - 10-22-2008 at 11:09 AM

As I posted earlier, to live is to take risks. The fact that we have guns, alcohol, moving cars, trucks, trains and planes, power generation are all facts of life and all carry inherent risks. Drugs should be no different. You can take your last argument Skeet about drugs and replace it with the word alcohol. So should we also outlaw alcohol?

I prefer fewer laws than more and make people responsible for their actions, whether or not they take drugs, drink alcohol or just act stupid...

Iflyfish - 10-22-2008 at 12:07 PM

Skeet

No one is arguing that there will be no harm from this change in public policy. You make a valid point that people will continue to be harmed by those using drugs, guns, sex and rock and roll (loud music causes damage to hearing). This will always be the case.

This discussion started because the President of Mexico has decided to propose a different approach to the problem rather than to continue to have armed warfare on city streets. How about the 12 year old girl in Morelia killed in crossfire? How about the potential for getting hit by shrapnel when another grenade goes off?

The point is harm reduction not elimination. BajaGringo's point is well taken; substitute Alcohol in your comments above. As a society we will always have to deal with harm reduction when it comes to guns for instance. Banning them will never work.

There will still be problems with addiction and innocent family members suffer greatly when they have a family member addicted to drugs. I recall a heart rendering story told by another Nomad about how this has affected his personal family. How about the harm done to people jailed now for possession? What of their families, lost jobs etc.? These things already exist; hopefully a more nuanced policy will reduce much of the harm that already exists.

There is real possibility of Mexico becoming a failed state; I am not making this up. It is hard to get one’s mind around that possibility. Who has read The Kite Runner? Who could have anticipated that lovely Kabul would lie in rubble? Who would have anticipated that Beirut, third largest city in the Middle East, once the centre of Dar al-salam, the Muslim world, for centuries a major trading hub would be reduced to a war zone? Can the Mexican government muster enough troops to fight a hand to hand, block by block urban war against Drug Cartel terrorists? Who loses in that fight? Are you aware that some two million innocent civilians have been displaced in Iraq as a direct result of the war? That is 2,000,000 people, men, women and children who have been forced to leave their homes. This is the real cost of urban warfare. You see the effect of this war on tourism? How about it’s cost on immigration with wealthy Mexicans leaving the country? If this "War on Drugs" escalates in the streets of Mexico would you want to live in a major city?

Iflyfish

Cypress - 10-22-2008 at 12:43 PM

Maybe we, we being the USA and Mexico should just, declare "Victory!" in the drug war. We won! It's over! Sorta like the end of prohibition! Might put a lot of cops out of work? :?:

Might get 'em to redirect their resources to important things, like armed robbers, child molesters, etc. :bounce:

Skeet/Loreto - 10-22-2008 at 01:58 PM

Uflyfish: I was including Boose in my use of Drugs. Drunk Drivers kill people.
A drug users familu does not enter in to the Equation as well as those that have been killed in the Iraq War.

My Take: In my view Our President made a very tough decesion to do something about a Leader who had killed close to 500,000 People including using Gas on many. The byproduct killing of many innocents is yes very bad, but is that not the same Byproduct Killing that Harry Truman had to make when he decided to use the A Bomb.?? Saving lives in the Long Haul??

Now the above statement is not related to Drugs, but would it not be "Better" if the Addicted Druggie was elimanated? was considered a ByProduct killing to save innocent lives in the Future??

If later it was discovered a particular Gene was causing Addiction to Drugs that we could at Birth eliminate that Gene>.

Again, we can make all kinds of "What ifs" but when you get to the root cause of any type of Drug Addiction it comes down to "Choice of the Indivudal" who in my view is Flawed by Weakness,.

gnukid - 10-22-2008 at 02:40 PM

For some time now, the practical application in effect is that in Mexico individual use of marijuana is not a punishable offense because of the tenuous nature of the individual drug use law.

As we know, the proposed change in Mexican law has been proposed often over the last 5 years and passed by representatives repeatedly thus to become law only required the signature of the president (who proposed it) yet under pressure he declined to sign the amendment, yet, reportedly due to pressure to receive million from the US president under proposed Plan Mexico.

Thus the defacto understanding is that the current law does not match the desired will of the President of Mexico. This recent revival of the story marks the 4th time a Mexican president has stated the intent to pass the amendment in the last 5 years, I think.

If questioned you are supposed to say "I am an addict" (in Mexico) to be legal. That's why if someone is smoking pot in public in Mexico people say, "do you tell your parents you are an addict" jajaja.

If you are interested in more about this, review the initial thread link for proposed drug law reform by Calderon, signed drug reform laws by Mexican Representatives, recent opinions of the California Supreme Court affirming County compliance with proposition 215 passed into law in California.

In the consideration of health, personally I would discourage anyone from any drug use including marijuana, alcohol, caffeine, tylenol, even antibiotics etc... unless you require it for medical purposes.

Barry A. - 10-22-2008 at 02:44 PM

----there is growing evidence that a little booze (reads hard liquor) every night is beneficial--------up to 5 ozs for men, and 3 ozs for women---------I just read that in some "health letter", I think the Mayo Clinic, but not sure----I get several.

Barry

Barry A. - 10-22-2008 at 02:54 PM

I just discovered this thread, and have read it thru entirely, which takes some time, believe me. It is one of the most interesting threads on the subject I have ever read.

It certainly makes me re-evaluate my position, and I am not sure where I come down now. I spent 10 years as a Fed. officer and foot-soldier in the Drug war in N. California and S. Oregon and we sure thought we were "making a difference" but who knows. I never saw any corruption, tho, at all. We sure destroyed a LOT of MJ, and it was a real kick. :lol:

I am disturbed by the references in GnuKid's piece involving heavy govt. involvement in the drug trade-----that smacks of "vast right wing conspiracy", "Kennedy asassination conspiracy", "9/11 conspiracy", and Michael Moore stuff--------all impossible to really believe, and seemingly the products of really paranoid folks (with an agenda???).

But none the less, there is some really good points made on this thread and I, for one, really appreciate your opinions-----all of you.

Barry

gnukid - 10-22-2008 at 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto

My Take: In my view Our President made a very tough decesion to do something about a Leader who had killed close to 500,000 People including using Gas on many. The byproduct killing of many innocents is yes very bad, but is that not the same Byproduct Killing that Harry Truman had to make when he decided to use the A Bomb.?? Saving lives in the Long Haul??
...

Skeet, if I understood your justification for bombing in WW2, may I ask you consider that it has been shown and admitted that the US power brokers specifically the Bush family were funding N-zi Germany under Hitler for profit, while fighting as much as they are now funding war with Afghanistan and Iraq while profiting. Justifying these deaths for profit is hard to do...

Its a matter of public record that many would apparently like to forget, Prescot Bush and E. Roland Harriman were convicted felons for their role in support and profiting from support of N-zi activities with Hitler along with Union Banking Corporation. Or if you were speaking about Japan... shall I go there?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldw...

http://brasschecktv.com/page/263.html

http://www.rense.com/general42/bshN-zi.htm

Unfortunately, few are willing to accept what is written by US courts and a matter of public record. I can understand that it is difficult to imagine a worse set of circumstances.

Barry A. - 10-22-2008 at 03:12 PM

Gnukid-----------you gotta stop reading all this stuff------it will drive you nuts, and us too. There is NO WAY that I am going to buy into any of this stuff in your references if the Media has declined 100% to report it-----that just makes no sense at all. The Press would dealy LOVE to expand on stuff like this if they thought it was credible.

Barry

gnukid - 10-22-2008 at 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
I am disturbed by the references in GnuKid's piece involving heavy govt. involvement in the drug trade-----that smacks of "vast right wing conspiracy", "Kennedy asassination conspiracy", "9/11 conspiracy", and Michael Moore stuff--------all impossible to really believe, and seemingly the products of really paranoid folks (with an agenda???)...

Barry, thanks? I have no horse in this race except to respond to misdirection... such as yours.

I challenge you to refute anything I wrote.

Consider the misdirection of the Bay of Tonkin Viet Nam, Bay of Pigs, Cuba, WMDs in Iraq. These are well documented lies, admitted by the President in power at the time.

Now this brings to mind something more important:

Why would Nomads turn against on each other in light of these facts?

Why are most of conditioned to deny facts which scare us?

Why do we accept so many minor news reports while others such as those which demonstrate CIA involvement in so many crimes, which are so frightening we deny.

Why are we not outraged?

What is the limit prior to outrage?

Skeet, what is bravery or strong will mean in this case in light of what we know?

gnukid - 10-22-2008 at 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
The Press would dealy LOVE to expand on stuff like this if they thought it was credible.

Each of these stories is reported in WSJ, NY Times, UK Guardian. I have included many of those links as well others. Do a search in Google for any keywords followed by NY Times, for example CIA drug plane NY TIMES.

I think its time you consider your role in this by attacking me and supporting the agenda as opposed to considering the issues which are reported on back pages, just not on the cover.

By the way, I have many other things on my mind and have enjoyed many activities and encounters this week, as well as met people from around the world and of all ages, so perhaps these experiences allow me to see the hegelian dialectic which misdirects people such as yourself in a left-right paradigm.

Wahooo Here I am this week joining the crew of a historical recreation of a Chinese Junk from China to the USA round trip. I think you need to get out and turn off the TV. I am learning Chinese, xie, xie (thank u).

[Edited on 10-22-2008 by gnukid]

shari - 10-22-2008 at 03:45 PM

whoaaa....what a great thread indeed...I just want to say that Iflyfish changed MY life when he came into it...his reasoning is clear, consise, honest, with no agenda but to educate....he is an astute, knowledgeable proffessional whom I admire and appreciate.
good for you Gnukid for doing the research and having the guts to reveal what most dont want to even thing about, let alone believe.

Skeet....I was so glad to see you at least appreciate Ifly's points....very good sign...but I too would like you to substitute drunks for druggies.... um...should we "eliminate" the drunks who kill people on the highways and in their homes????

Someone must have some data on alcohol related deaths or accidents as opposed to weed caused deaths.... I'm ready to bet a fishing trip that alcohol causes WAY more accidents and deaths than herb....so I would be careful about axing "druggies" who cause accidents if you are not prepared to "eliminate" other substinance abusers too who cause them.

I bet alot of good pals of lots of nomads would be executed if it came to "eliminating" people who cause accidents due to intoxicants.

Dao....check your U2U for the deer's address and specific directions to the amenita areas...dont forget...only one bite!(hahahahahah)

Barry A. - 10-22-2008 at 04:45 PM

Gnukid---------As Obama would say, "no, no, no, no, no" I was NOT attacking you, and I am sorry you took it that way. I found ALL the comments (as I said) on this thread very interesting, and I was not "attacking" anybody other than the originators of the "references" you cited.

I am sorry if my tone offended you-----that was unintentional.

I am sure that you and Iflyfish are very knowledgeable, and both of you are very eloquent----so much so that sometimes I am not sure what you are saying, not being a word-smith. I did read the references, but yes, I am skeptical, but I try to keep an open mind------some of that stuff is just too mind-bending for me to except at face value, I guess.

Anyway, I do appreciate your sharing your knowledge with us.

barry

Iflyfish - 10-22-2008 at 05:05 PM

That's a great looking junk there gnukid! What fun! Have your read the controversial book 1421? The premise of the book is that the Chinese circumnavigated the globe in 1421, a great read, though controversial in historical circles.

Barry A and Shari, thank you for your kind words. You both are people that I greatly respect. A number of people have expressed appreciation for this tread and for the most part it has been a very civil dialogue. We are all better off when we can disagree and still respect each other. I love retirement and having the time to write, what a privilege! I really enjoy and appreciate this site; it has provided me with an opportunity to meet some extraordinary people! There are some amazing people on this board! Ya got to love the internet! Some people on this board have become lifelong friends and for this I am grateful. It is a privilege to be part of a community like this and to share our experiences, adventures and thinking with each other.

Barry A. It is very disturbing to say the least to consider the possibility of the government of the USofA being involved in drug distribution. Alas the history is not a good one. In 1996 Gary Webb or the San Jose Mercury News wrote a series of articles examining the exchange of drugs for guns in the Iran/Contra affair. http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/webb.html This is a dark part of our history. Recall that Congress passed laws banning the shipping of arms to the Contras and the Reagan administration did so anyway. The entire incident makes for some fascinating reading. For a more comprehensive over view you can find it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_drug_trafficking

There are very powerful vested interests in the general population not having this information. The myth of the Liberal Media is just that, a myth. The history of CIA involvement with LSD is a real eye opener. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKULTRA I do understand that Wikipedia is composed by ordinary citizens so it is not authoritative in and of itself. However Wikipedia can be a very good source for threads to research and documentation of various issues. I try to find numerous sources supporting any hypothesis that I run into. The internet is a wonderful resource for us in this way.

Gnukid expresses outrage. Don’t you think that would be an appropriate response if what he is reporting is true? I think so. I too am no conspiracy theorist, I do however read a lot and know for instance that this year the information about the Gulf of Tonkin incident was released and it is true that it was a fictional incident used to gin up Congress to support the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution authorizing the Viet Nam War.

Iflyfish

k-rico - 10-22-2008 at 06:39 PM

"the Gulf of Tonkin incident was released and it is true that it was a fictional incident used to gin up Congress to support the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution authorizing the Viet Nam War. "

According to a history of LBJ being shown on PBS the purpose was largely to show the American people that the Democrats were tough on Communism right before the LBJ / Goldwater election.

Back to drugs, I really believe there is a need to treat each one differently. NO WAY should metamphetamine be legalized in any amount. It should be illegal for the chemical companies to manufacture the precursor chemicals and meth dealers need to do hard time.

On the other hand, marijuana is rather harmless. The current penalties and the number of people in jail because they have ignored the marijuana laws don't make any sense whatsoever. Don't legalize it, but treat it in much the same way traffic violations are treated.

Cocaine is similar to marijuana in this respect but perhaps somewhat more serious. Coke made into crack is much like meth.

Heroin use is a rather static situation. There will always be junk and junkies. Sort of a living death.

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