BajaNomad - Just for fun, old map game... 1941 Map and more!

Just for fun, old map game... 1941 Map and more!

David K - 11-8-2008 at 09:24 AM

This is part of one of the maps in my collection... It is one of the oldest 'road maps' of Baja.

THREE QUESTIONS:
Does any Nomad care to guess at the year it was made? How many times do you see the word 'unexplored' on it? What is wrong with one of the missions shown?

PS Neal Johns is disqualified from answering :lol:

(not only does he have this map, but he probably drew it!) :spingrin:

[Edited on 11-10-2008 by David K]

CaboRon - 11-8-2008 at 09:49 AM

1978

Udo - 11-8-2008 at 09:55 AM

1959.
Unexplored appears only once.
The Dolores Del Norte mission ruins should be farther East.

David K - 11-8-2008 at 10:34 AM

Hint: In 1978, the highway was already built and didn't go through El Arco. That solid heavy line indicates the main road and not a paved road.

Udo, try again on all three! :yes:

toneart - 11-8-2008 at 11:03 AM

Just a blind shot:

1974.

Regarding mission, wouldn't Delores del Norte be north of the state line?

cristobal - 11-8-2008 at 03:17 PM

I'll say ....1940

Gertrudis is farther SOUTH

I see two ... UNEXPLORED ...

:wow:

[Edited on 11-8-2008 by cristobal]

cristobal - 11-8-2008 at 03:54 PM

Let me try again ... 1920

Santa Gertrudis is in BAJA SUR

I still just see TWO unexplored ...

Santa Gertrudis used to be called ...
Dolores Del Norte

:wow:

woody with a view - 11-8-2008 at 04:00 PM

3 unexplored, but who's counting?

David K - 11-8-2008 at 04:39 PM

You guys are getting better!

There are 3 missions shown on that map: Santa Gertrudis, Dolores del Norte, and San Ignacio. Another mission is just off the map, but part of the name 'Guadalupe' is seen at the bottom.

Cristobal is correct on one item: Santa Gertrudis was initially to be called Dolores del Norte! But, since Jesuit records were not fully understood by some writers... When they saw the name 'Dolores' mentioned and on the 1757 map, north of San Ignacio, it was assumed to be another mission besides Santa Gertrudis.

The visita ruins of San Pablo have been mistaken to be the mission of Dolores del Norte by some authors and even INAH!

On this map, both San Pablo and Dolores del Norte are shown... but the Dolores del Norte shown, is an error... No such site (seperate from San Pablo or Santa Gertrudis) exists. This error was repeated on many maps, including the older Automobile Club of So. Calif. Baja folding map and the Mike McMahan wall maps.

Great to see you here, cristobal!

As for the 'Unexplored', Woody wins (as I saw it in three places, too).

The year... well... one of you was really close!

redmesa - 11-8-2008 at 06:33 PM

I'll play. My uncle lost his silver mine to the revolution in the thirties and I see on this map that the placer mines are still marked...so I guess hmmm 1932?

cristobal - 11-8-2008 at 10:33 PM

1922

toneart - 11-8-2008 at 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
You guys are getting better!

There are 3 missions shown on that map: Santa Gertrudis, Dolores del Norte, and San Ignacio. Another mission is just off the map, but part of the name 'Guadalupe' is seen at the bottom.

Cristobal is correct on one item: Santa Gertrudis was initially to be called Dolores del Norte! But, since Jesuit records were not fully understood by some writers... When they saw the name 'Dolores' mentioned and on the 1757 map, north of San Ignacio, it was assumed to be another mission besides Santa Gertrudis.

The visita ruins of San Pablo have been mistaken to be the mission of Dolores del Norte by some authors and even INAH!

On this map, both San Pablo and Dolores del Norte are shown... but the Dolores del Norte shown, is an error... No such site (seperate from San Pablo or Santa Gertrudis) exists. This error was repeated on many maps, including the older Automobile Club of So. Calif. Baja folding map and the Mike McMahan wall maps.

Great to see you here, cristobal!

As for the 'Unexplored', Woody wins (as I saw it in three places, too).

The year... well... one of you was really close!

David,
Was I so far off that you didn't acknowledge my try?

David K - 11-8-2008 at 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
Just a blind shot:

1974.

Regarding mission, wouldn't Delores del Norte be north of the state line?

"David,
Was I so far off that you didn't acknowledge my try?"

Thanks for participating toneart... I felt it was fair to let those with correct answers know and to provide more hints as the game progressed. The year on the map will be revealed tomorrow, one of the guesses was off by just one year (as I said before)... at least that is what I recall the year of that map was... It is rolled up in a tube, and I haven't looked it over for acouple years!

As for your guesses:

1974 was after the new highway was built. The heavy black line on this map was the main transpeninsular road. It was a dirt track, not graded, and went through El Arco. Guerrero Negro town was still many years from existing when this map was made. However, when the new highway was built in 1973, Guerrero Negro was more important than El Arco so the highway passed near it and El Arco got a paper thin paved side road which soon disitigrated.

There was never a physical mission called Dolores del Norte, only in the Jesuit records as a proposed name for the next mission north of San Ignacio. When funds were finally available for that mission, a new name (Santa Gertrudis) was used. The visita of San Pablo was erroneously called Dolores del Norte by some authors and INAH... On this map, San Pablo, Santa Gertrudis and Dolores all are shown seperately... There was no 'state line' when a mission named Dolores del Norte was proposed... that was even before there was a country of Mexico... The peninsula was 'California' and the land to the north of the peninsula was later called 'Alta California'. Things sure got switched around!

For more on Dolores del Norte, see http://vivabaja.com/1757

This is great for learning a bit about the fascinating and mysterious history of Baja, the original California!

[Edited on 11-10-2008 by David K]

toneart - 11-8-2008 at 11:08 PM

David,

Very interesting!
I erroneously assumed the thick black line was the paved hwy, new in 1973. I also assumed that the map was crudely drawn by an amateur (the Neal Johns reference threw me off in 1974.

I'll look forward to the correct answer. Don't give it away. Make them/us work for it.
Tony

David K - 11-8-2008 at 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
David,

Very interesting!
I erroneously assumed the thick black line was the paved hwy, new in 1973. I also assumed that the map was crudely drawn by an amateur (the Neal Johns reference threw me off in 1974.

I'll look forward to the correct answer. Don't give it away. Make them/us work for it.
Tony

You bet... no problema... (see my hint post right above your 10:03 am guess)

Thanks for playing Tony... and I thought your name was 'Art' and played music, all along! (tone- art)! :light:

1958

toneart - 11-9-2008 at 12:30 PM

:?:

David K - 11-9-2008 at 12:55 PM

Okay Tony... it was Cristobal who was the closest... the map was made in 1941 and is very detailed with descriptions, a road log, history, etc. Like a Baja guidebook on a map!

I will try and scan more of it... stay tuned!

The south end of Baja, 1941

David K - 11-9-2008 at 01:12 PM

Bob H - 11-9-2008 at 01:27 PM

David, this is a very cool thread.
Thanks,
Bob H

David K - 11-9-2008 at 01:36 PM

Thanks Bob... Here is the north end of 1941 Baja... then it's time to watch some FOOTBALL!

BajaGringo - 11-9-2008 at 01:36 PM

OK, I'll play. Bring on another map!

David K - 11-9-2008 at 01:40 PM

After the Charges beat KC! :yes:

Skipjack Joe - 11-9-2008 at 03:27 PM

I'd put this map somewhere between 1920 and 1940. I had a baja map around 1960 (spelled out the game available for hunters) and it was considerably more advanced than this one.

David K - 11-9-2008 at 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Okay Tony... it was Cristobal who was the closest... the map was made in 1941 and is very detailed with descriptions, a road log, history, etc. Like a Baja guidebook on a map!

I will try and scan more of it... stay tuned!

1941

Here is the central section:

David K - 11-9-2008 at 05:50 PM

Because the area just north of Bahia de los Angeles is fuzzy, here is a closer look at the section from El Rosario to El Arco (the south part of Baja Norte):

David K - 11-9-2008 at 06:01 PM

Here is the 1941 road log from that map:

David K - 11-9-2008 at 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I'd put this map somewhere between 1920 and 1940. I had a baja map around 1960 (spelled out the game available for hunters) and it was considerably more advanced than this one.

You are describing the old Automobile Club map of the mid 1960's

It did copy some features off this 1941 map, including showing a mission of Dolores del Norte (that isn't there)...

Here's a couple of parts of it:

After our 1966 trip to the tip of Baja, I (age 8-9) marked our route... the only pavement in Baja Sur then was for a hundred miles north of La Paz and 10 miles south of La Paz.

[Edited on 11-10-2008 by David K]

Udo - 11-9-2008 at 06:32 PM

Our Chargers, held off the charge from KC!

surfer jim - 11-10-2008 at 05:28 PM

Love these maps.....

Side note to northern portion map at end of page 1.....Years ago I was camping at CUATRO CASAS (few miles south of Colonet Point) and was talking to a son of INEZ ( he was the owner of the "4 houses").......remember him telling me the "main" road from Ensenada used to pass by their location on its way south....looking at the map shows it doing just that before it gets to Hamilton Ranch to the south.......

Also...anybody know anything about the IRON deposit located between Santo Thomas and Colonet.....looks to be on/near the beach?

David K - 11-10-2008 at 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by surfer jim
Love these maps.....

Side note to northern portion map at end of page 1.....Years ago I was camping at CUATRO CASAS (few miles south of Colonet Point) and was talking to a son of INEZ ( he was the owner of the "4 houses").......remember him telling me the "main" road from Ensenada used to pass by their location on its way south....looking at the map shows it doing just that before it gets to Hamilton Ranch to the south.......

Also...anybody know anything about the IRON deposit located between Santo Thomas and Colonet.....looks to be on/near the beach?

Jim... here is the 1927 Auto Club map... as you can see the first main road hugged the coast, as you were told!

Shall I post the other two in this thread?

[Edited on 11-11-2008 by David K]

Jack Swords - 11-10-2008 at 06:10 PM

David...did you notice on the south portion of the old AAA map the "Mission el Novillo" at San Pedro? Wonder how it got labeled as such? You have the photo before it fell down a couple of years ago. I know INAH had been out to the site, but looked like a small chapel to me. It is on Rancho Novillo dating back to that era. Up above the chapel on the Trinchera range is the estancia el Zalate. Need to go back!

David K - 11-10-2008 at 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack Swords
David...did you notice on the south portion of the old AAA map the "Mission el Novillo" at San Pedro? Wonder how it got labeled as such? You have the photo before it fell down a couple of years ago. I know INAH had been out to the site, but looked like a small chapel to me. It is on Rancho Novillo dating back to that era. Up above the chapel on the Trinchera range is the estancia el Zalate. Need to go back!

Yes Jack... I was wondering when you would say something!

Here is your photo of the 'Mission' of El Novillo:

Did you have any photos from last time in La Paz to add to your web page? http://vivabaja.com/swords

BajaNuts - 11-10-2008 at 06:43 PM

Very Fun! I'd love to see progressive maps of a certain area if those that have them would like to share them. Pick an area and the show the oldest map, a newer one, and the latest one.

Or more contests are fun too! thanks for sharing >>>>>

surfer jim - 11-10-2008 at 09:30 PM

Thanks for the detail.....guess it makes sense as the area is very flat....also looks like a "barge" was available to cross the river at Colonet point...

jodiego - 11-11-2008 at 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Here is the 1941 road log from that map:

.

Cape San Lucas.....stores, gas, oil. My how times have changed.

David K - 11-11-2008 at 09:05 AM

jodiego, when I first went to (Cabo) San Lucas, it was 1966 and it was a small fish canery town with a pier. There was one tourist hotel, the Hacienda and visitors mostly arrived by private plane landing on the mud flats behind the hotel. That is where the harbor is today! My next visit was in 1974, and the place was totally changed... The Finisterra and Solmar had been built, a harbor was being dredged, a ferry landing built for the Puerto Vallarta ferry line... oh, and a paved highway all the way to Tijuana!

David K - 11-11-2008 at 08:09 PM

OK Nomads... I have rescanned the 1941 map and also scanned my 1919 map (from 1905/06 suryeys) , and a 1905 mines and roads maps... I also have a differnt 1919 map of Northern Baja and a 1930 map...

Please go to the Baja Nomad Historic Interest and Literatur forum to see them! >>> http://forums.bajanomad.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=24

[Edited on 11-12-2008 by David K]