burro bob - 5-20-2004 at 09:14 AM
If you could only have one book about the history of the indiginous peoples of Baja, what would it be?
I am looking for a book that is still in print or that is readily findable in a used book store.
burro bob
[Edited on 5-20-2004 by burro bob]
Burro Bob
academicanarchist - 5-20-2004 at 09:44 AM
Burro Bob. Unfortunately, there is no such book. You may want to look at several. In the early 1990s, Garland did a Spanish Borderlands sourcebook
series. I did the volume on the Baja missions, and Michael Mathes the other volume on Baja. Homer Aschmann's 1959 study on the Central Desert has good
information on the native peoples. So does Meigs's book on the Dominican Mission Frontier, and Meigs also did an ethnography of the Kilewa. My 1994
book Indian Population Decline addresses demographic patterns in the Baja missions. The two Garland volumes might be a starting point, since they
reproduce articles and sections of books long out of print.
JESSE - 5-20-2004 at 01:05 PM
If you know spanish theres a few you can find in any decent Baja library.
And the La Paz Museum
jrbaja - 5-20-2004 at 03:06 PM
has a bookstore that's full of them. As well as accurate maps, magazines with articles from people that have actually been there and a whole world of
information about Mexico and Baja.
Now, who woulda thunk ? I've always gone to David K. for information. hahahahahahahahaha Sorry David.
David K - 5-20-2004 at 09:40 PM
Hi Bob,
AA's book on the Mission Indian population decline is a good one.
Dave Werschkul's new book, 'Saints and Demons in a Desert Wilderness' http://www.bajamission.com is excellent (I recently read it) as it addresses the terrible way the natives were treated by the padres (mainly
Franciscan and Dominican) as well as the Spanish government after the Jesuits were expelled in 1767/1768.
Aschmann's book mentioned above, contains lots of demographic information on the native peoples of Baja.
jrbaja, what's so funny?
Did you and the bamboo nursery guy in Vista hook up?
burro bob - 5-21-2004 at 09:34 AM
Thanks to everyone that responded. I certianly have a lot better idea of what to look for now.
I don't know when I'll get to visit La Paz again so I'll have the local bookstore lady strart searching.
Did anyone every record individuals original names, before they became Arce's and Villavicencio's? Did any of the Scriptures ever get translated into
any native languages?
burro bob
New questions
academicanarchist - 5-21-2004 at 10:15 AM
The missionaries did translate some texts into native languages, such as catechisms and confessional aids. A number of the surviving Baja California
mission registers do have entries for early soldiers/settlers in the Peninsula. In terms of original names, if there were name changes, there are
contemporary documents from Sinaloa and Sonora.
What's so funny is
jrbaja - 5-21-2004 at 10:23 AM
I try to never say anything or make decisions until I now ALL the facts. Especially if I am writing it down or giving advice.
In my opinion, someone trying to pretend like they are an expert on something should at least know all the facts. This includes the history of
another country.
When I went to school, they taught me that Indians were savages in the u.s.history books. I learned from that to not put much faith in what the
history books have to say. Especially when trying to become an expert on something.
Now, someone who is trying to write the history of Mexico that doesn't speak Spanish seems a little odd to me. There is a whole Museum and libraries
everywhere that have the history of Mexico in them. Written in Spanish, this being Mexico.
If I take into consideration the "mistakes" made in the u.s.history books and perhaps the Mexican ones as well, it still seems that there would be
some pertinent information in those Mexican books involving their history.
And without knowing what they say, or at least their ideas, however inaccurate they may be, you haven't heard all the facts and information.
Similar to the maps and guidebooks now being published by non Mexicans. They are all wrong in many places. Didn't they think somebody would
eventually look ?
Here's a picture of what I know to be the trail of the Jesuits and Missions. No matter what anybody wants to call it.
Betcha can't guess where it is.
Photo
Speedy Gonzalez - 5-21-2004 at 02:15 PM
Hola jrbaja
Where was your picture taken? Quite difficult... Many places look like that... 
- somewhere around San Antonio or San Antonio de la Sierra?
- somewhere around San Borja?
I would also guess that the photo was taken in the winter months (between November and March).
But anyhow... the trail on the photo somehow looks like made by a machine for me. Prepared roads for Baja 1000 sometimes look like that.
If this was a trail used by the Jesuits I would rather think that it was a bit smaller at that time.
Looking forward to your answer...
Book
Speedy Gonzalez - 5-21-2004 at 02:22 PM
Hola burro bob (que nombre te pusiste... :spingrin
)
If you read Spanish I could recommend following book from Rosa Elba Rodr?guez Tomp:
Historia de los pueblos ind?genas de M?xico
Cautivos de Dios
Los cazadores recolectores de Baja California durante la Colonia
You should be able to get this book at the museum in La Paz.
Good luck!
[Edited on 5-21-2004 by Speedy Gonzalez]
Another clue
jrbaja - 5-21-2004 at 03:08 PM
Sierra
academicanarchist - 5-22-2004 at 05:45 AM
It is probably taken in the Sierra in the south where you have been hanging out of late.
Otherwise
jrbaja - 5-22-2004 at 09:38 AM
how could I have taken the picture? Your getting warmer. But I've been "hanging out" in both the Sierras and Lagunas. And some a little further to the
north as well.
And as long as you guys are trying, I will wait a little longer to see if any of the Baja Sur history professionals come up with an answer.
I will reveal the location before I go to La Paz but here's another clue.
Some of you should recognize this place if you have read all the books pertaining to Baja Sur.
The Old Road
jrbaja - 5-22-2004 at 09:49 AM
Speedy, do you live in La Paz full time and what do you do down there if you don't mind my asking? Perhaps we could get together sometime when I'm
bajo.
Regarding the condition of the roads. From what I have seen, there are very few places left where the El Camino Real is in it's original condition.
This is due to a number of factors but probably the biggest factor is the Le?eros.
They have to get to the hard to get to places with their trucks so a little remodeling of the roads is commonplace. We have to do it ourselves more
often than I would like but that's part of traveling in the mountains.
Also, the soldiers are all over those roads looking for spaghetti growers or what have you.
This ones taken from a cave in the same area.
Book choice
bajalera - 5-22-2004 at 06:40 PM
Burro Bob, if I had to choose one book in English to get an idea of indigenous life, it would probably be Padre Baegert's Observations. Compared to
the other accounts written by Jesuits, his is more concerned with little details--at times it's almost gossipy.
For example, he describes how the nomads were accustomed to spending their time (gathering food while talking and laughing at lot) as contrasted with
what they did at the mission (spend considerable time in church). Although his intent is to show that missionaries had improved the lot of the Indians
by saving their souls from hell, the contrast in lifestyles makes it clear (to me, at least) that their hunting-and-collecting existence was more
enjoyable than mission life.
On my first exposure to this book, I raced through it looking for information. That was a mistake. It needs to be read carefully, because what
Baegert often does is start out with a totally negative sentence about the peninsula and its people, and then modify whatever he has said in the rest
of the paragraph.
Somewhere along the way, he even says that if Indian children were taken to Spain and educated, they would turn out to be as reasonable as Europeans.
(Or words to that effect--I don't have his book with me.) For a man of his time, that's a pretty amazing statement.
Like all books that are several hundred years old, this one needs to be taken with a grain or six of salt. But every time I browse through it, I seem
to find something interesting that has escaped my notice on previous readings.
Many U.S. libraries have copies of Baegert's book (which has some translations of prayers in Guaycurian).
bajalera
[Edited on 5-23-2004 by bajalera]
David K - 5-22-2004 at 07:43 PM
Really beautiful river or estuary JR, and it seems is quite a puzzle where it is, I am curious... The only 'rivers' in Baja Sur I can think of are in
San Ignacio, Mulege, and La Purisima. Thanks for sharing!
Lazy Cartographers
jrbaja - 5-22-2004 at 08:55 PM
is one of the reasons I have been so fortunate as to be one of the first "Outsiders" to see many of these places.
There are many lakes and rivers that are not mentioned in any of the books and I have seen them in all of the mountain ranges. Not all of them are
year round but when they are flowing, they are gorgeous.
There are also many "Ojos de Agua" (Artesian springs) that do run year round with a substantial amount of water coming out of them. Many of these
seem to change FPS or amount running on a daily basis.
And many of them have some of the best water I have ever tasted. And no, I didn't get sick from it. They call it "Agua Dulce" and for good reason.
I am putting a Lakes and Streams section in the group, http://groups.msn.com/TheBajasBestGuidesPhotoAlbum as well as "Ranchos", "Caves" , "Animals",
"Rancho Handicrafts", and a whole bunch of stories about the adventures visiting these places.
Also, at www.Confluence.org, Herb and I have another Confluence visited in one of the harder to get to places in Baja. 2 down 4 more to go in Baja.
Come on you adventurers, start adventuring! Just make sure you are prepared !!