BajaNomad - Windmill in Mexico?

Windmill in Mexico?

dianaji - 12-1-2008 at 09:42 PM

i was telling a friend that i was going to get a windmill installed and this is what he said,

I have an American friend living in baja,Velle de Trinidad.When I asked him about solar/wind/alternative energy,he said:The Government ownes the power company,and Alternative energy is "ILLEGAL"!!"

is this true? please tell me before i get this started!

diana

Dave - 12-1-2008 at 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dianaji
i was telling a friend that i was going to get a windmill installed and this is what he said,

I have an American friend living in baja,Velle de Trinidad.When I asked him about solar/wind/alternative energy,he said:The Government ownes the power company,and Alternative energy is "ILLEGAL"!!"

is this true? please tell me before i get this started!

diana

Yes, the government owns the power company.

No, alternative energy isn't illegal.

Eugenio - 12-2-2008 at 01:49 AM

As long as you don't try to sell the electricity you generate you're fine - and don't plan on connecting it to the grid.

Alternative energy encompasses a lot more than electricity - Mexico is actively seeking an entry into alternative energy industries - in fact it's desperate - since it will probably become an importer of oil within 15 years or so. I'd even bet (some - not much) that Mexico builds a new nuclear electricity plant before the US does.

However individuals cannot build nuclear plants in Mexico - Article 27.

LOSARIPES - 12-2-2008 at 02:41 AM

There is an architect in La Paz, very successful and influential I was told who managed to build a solar panel system, generate electricity for his own needs, plug it into the grid and "sell" his surplus power to the CFE. Not an easy task but succeeded at it. Problem is I don't know his name. Does anybody know him?

CaboRon - 12-2-2008 at 05:48 AM

I will add some hearsay with the rest of it ... It is said that here in Todos Santos that CFE is offering to buy back excess production in from your home power system .... this is being offered as the grid expands out into El Otro Lado ... I suspict that some of these grand homes have pretty extensive solar set-ups .....

I cannot identify anything official :lol:

CaboRon

4baja - 12-2-2008 at 07:19 AM

these things can be very noisy allso, check with your neighbor-friends first so they stay friends!

Diver - 12-2-2008 at 08:56 AM

Don't know what you're thinking of using the power for but the little propeller style wind generators make lots of noise and don't produce enough power for a large RV.
The larger ones cost big bucks as do most of the vertical axis generators (they are generally much quieter).
Unless you have a huge battery bank, you will need solar as well as wind since the wind power production will vary greatly with time.
If you are not seeing at least a 12 knot wind average for at least 8 hours a day, every day, the wind generator will be less efficient than solar in Baja.
If you have the bucks and already have a solar system, a small wind generator can supplement the system on cloudy, windy days.

.

norte - 12-2-2008 at 09:04 AM

There is a large wind farm in san Juanico. Don't know who owns it.

[Edited on 12-2-2008 by norte]

dianaji - 12-2-2008 at 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diver
Don't know what you're thinking of using the power for but the little propeller style wind generators make lots of noise and don't produce enough power for a large RV.
The larger ones cost big bucks as do most of the vertical axis generators (they are generally much quieter).
Unless you have a huge battery bank, you will need solar as well as wind since the wind power production will vary greatly with time.
If you are not seeing at least a 12 knot wind average for at least 8 hours a day, every day, the wind generator will be less efficient than solar in Baja.
If you have the bucks and already have a solar system, a small wind generator can supplement the system on cloudy, windy days.

.

it's for my 2 bedroom mobile home...i have the info if interested.

Eugenio - 12-2-2008 at 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LOSARIPES
There is an architect in La Paz, very successful and influential I was told who managed to build a solar panel system, generate electricity for his own needs, plug it into the grid and "sell" his surplus power to the CFE. Not an easy task but succeeded at it. Problem is I don't know his name. Does anybody know him?

Quote:

by CaboRon
I will add some hearsay with the rest of it ... It is said that here in Todos Santos that CFE is offering to buy back excess production in from your home power system .... this is being offered as the grid expands out into El Otro Lado ... I suspict that some of these grand homes have pretty extensive solar set-ups .....

I cannot identify anything official

The CFE would be foolish not to buy it back - although I haven't heard of any formal programs - afterall the CFE is subsidized. But to plug into the grid without telling the CFE would be against Article 27. The CFE doesn't want any competition - but at the same time it's a money loser - go figure....

Kind of off your topic Diana - sorry...

CaboRon

dianaji - 12-2-2008 at 09:38 AM

Quote:

i appreciate any feedback, cause this a decision i cannot make alone, since i am so windmill un-savvy.

rob - 12-2-2008 at 10:28 AM

dianaji - good luck with your project, I am also dreaming of a wind generator one day - except here it would run a desal plant.

Of course it's legal to have a private wind/sun/gasoline generator. The only problem (as Diver points out) is that battery requirements make it expensive - there are very few places in Baja where the wind is constant enought to make battery-less wind power feasible.

Legislation was passed in 2006/2007 term allowing CFE to buy back power from private generation - the only problem is that many CFE districts are not up to technical speed on the interconnection.

As Eugenio says, it is illegal to plug into the grid without the permission of CFE - but that would be true of the USA as well - it only takes one idiot doing a home-connect to the grid to fry an unsuspecting linesman . . .

BajaGringo - 12-2-2008 at 10:36 AM

If I understood correctly, Diana's place is located on a hilltop above La Mision. That particular locale does get a lot of channeled air movement up through there.

Am I correct Diane?

If so, she should be able to generate some significant power, although I do agree it would be good to augment with solar...

dianaji - 12-2-2008 at 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
If I understood correctly, Diana's place is located on a hilltop above La Mision. That particular locale does get a lot of channeled air movement up through there.

Am I correct Diane?

If so, she should be able to generate some significant power, although I do agree it would be good to augment with solar...

yup, it's high up on a hill and at times VERY windy! i got a quote and for the windmill and all components $700, not including installation. know anyone that might do this?

BajaGringo - 12-2-2008 at 10:45 AM

I can get someone to help you with the installation there Diana and they shouldn't charge you too much. I will be back in Rosarito on Thursday and we can talk.

u2u me...

Bob and Susan - 12-2-2008 at 10:55 AM

the noise will drive you NUTTS!!!

go somewhere that has a wind generator installed and listen FIRST!!!

whoosh whoosh whoosh whoosh whoosh

it NEVER STOPS!!!

solar panels are completely quiet

windmill

dianaji - 12-2-2008 at 10:56 AM

problem is, i do not yet live there permanently. i will be coming dec. 11-14th. would love the help however!

Diver - 12-2-2008 at 11:11 AM

How much power do you think you will get from a $700 windmill ?
Not near enough for any cooking or heating; maybe a few small appliances.
Do you have solar or another power source yet ?
Generator ?
Battery storage ?

I think a generator is your best option for when you are there.
If you don't like the constant noise, get a few batteries to charge once or twice a day and a small inverter.
If you want power while you are gone you will need batteries and either an auto generator control, solar panels or wind to charge your batteries.

dianaji - 12-2-2008 at 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diver
How much power do you think you will get from a $700 windmill ?
Not near enough for any cooking or heating; maybe a few small appliances.
Do you have solar or another power source yet ?
Generator ?
Battery storage ?

I think a generator is your best option for when you are there.
If you don't like the constant noise, get a few batteries to charge once or twice a day and a small inverter.
If you want power while you are gone you will need batteries and either an auto generator control, solar panels or wind to charge your batteries.

dianaji - 12-2-2008 at 11:17 AM

the man who is making this windmill has been doing research on it for many years, and i know him. he has found a way to do it that cheaply. he tells me that i can have power from it for all that i need. oh, i do have a propane for cooking and of course i want to do solar cooking also. also am buying a propane refrigerator.

yes, i just bought a 3000 w generator. still don't understand the inverter idea. can u explain?

BajaGringo - 12-2-2008 at 11:19 AM

The inverter takes 12v from the batteries / feed and converts it to 110v

Bob and Susan - 12-2-2008 at 11:33 AM

take the generator back and get a honda 2000 EU

you'll be way happier

dianaji - 12-2-2008 at 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
take the generator back and get a honda 2000 EU

you'll be way happier

i paid $195 for the generator, it's quiet, and like new AND has an electric start!

dianaji - 12-2-2008 at 06:23 PM

more info on the windmill. this is a reply i got in regards to the noise, etc.

My turbines are not noisy, most of the noise comes not from the blade turbulance, but from the electronic friction from the motor. I have tested multiple motors for noise and the Ametek motors from pantek are the quietest. These are the motors that I use!! Also my turbines can produce 500Watts of electricity in a 5-10 knott wind, this is because the blades are not small they are 1 meter wide. Also, I believe in a solar and wind complementary system, but for the cost to power ratio and the usage to power ratio the turbines are 2 times more cost efficeint and the power is 60% where the solar will be only 30% at best. The technology in solar is not quite there, but they are getting close with reversing the photosynthesis of L.E.D. s. Anyhow, this should answer some of these questions, If you have any more then let me know.

(the above was sent to me by john, the maker of the windmills.

he also told me that anyone that would have any more questions, he would be happy to answer them.

islandmusicteach - 12-3-2008 at 01:46 PM

Well, that explains everything. :?:

Quote:

Originally posted by dianaji
more info on the windmill. this is a reply i got in regards to the noise, etc.

My turbines are not noisy, most of the noise comes not from the blade turbulance, but from the electronic friction from the motor. I have tested multiple motors for noise and the Ametek motors from pantek are the quietest. These are the motors that I use!! Also my turbines can produce 500Watts of electricity in a 5-10 knott wind, this is because the blades are not small they are 1 meter wide. Also, I believe in a solar and wind complementary system, but for the cost to power ratio and the usage to power ratio the turbines are 2 times more cost efficeint and the power is 60% where the solar will be only 30% at best. The technology in solar is not quite there, but they are getting close with reversing the photosynthesis of L.E.D. s. Anyhow, this should answer some of these questions, If you have any more then let me know.

(the above was sent to me by john, the maker of the windmills.

he also told me that anyone that would have any more questions, he would be happy to answer them.

Diver - 12-3-2008 at 01:50 PM

Sounds like he is building his own with good success.
I'm curious to find out about his system; ie what is the power curve.
How about some contact info for your supplier ?

windmill contact...

dianaji - 12-3-2008 at 02:02 PM

as i said, he is happy to help anyone... he can tell u anything u might want to know...and tell him i sent u!!!

dianaji - 12-3-2008 at 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by islandmusicteach
Well, that explains everything. :?:

e]

well, good, cause if he wasn't such a nice guy, he would have told me to get lost, because of all the questions i had for him! i was afraid he would be afraid that i was doubting him, and intuitively, i really trust the guy. just to let u know, he owns a horse ranch, plus his love for windmills... he supplies me with all of the composted manure i can ever want, and even helped me load it into my car!

windmill contact

dianaji - 12-3-2008 at 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diver
Sounds like he is building his own with good success.
I'm curious to find out about his system; ie what is the power curve.
How about some contact info for your supplier ?

]

oops! here it is:

john@paradisehill.net

vandenberg - 12-3-2008 at 03:08 PM

Hey Diane,
One thing in your favor,
If you need the sh*t to hit the fan, you don't have far to go.
One supplier. :biggrin:

dianaji - 12-3-2008 at 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
Hey Diane,
One thing in your favor,
If you need the sh*t to hit the fan, you don't have far to go.
One supplier. :biggrin:

ya, but the sh*t is in the u.s., so can't use it in la mision! know anyone who has organic sh*t there?

BS

MrBillM - 12-3-2008 at 04:01 PM

The statement that MOST of the noise comes not from the Blades, but the alternator is PURE BS.

ALL of the disturbing noise comes from the Blades. The lesser sound of the alternator can't even be heard because of the blade noise.

That statement makes anything the vendor would say questionable.

Bob and Susan - 12-3-2008 at 04:58 PM

hard as this is to belive...

i'm with mr bill

dianaji - 12-3-2008 at 05:05 PM

as hard as this is to believe, i'm with john. we shall see.

i have nothing to defend. i trust this guy, and that's my story and i'm sticking to it.

jbcoug - 12-3-2008 at 05:26 PM

I'm sorry, but we have known the reverse of photosynthesis for a long time, it's called cellular respiration. Unfortunately, L.E.D.s don't carry on photosynthesis or respiration. These processes can only be done by living organisms. But I do have to give it to John the windmill maker, it does sound high tech!

jbcoug

mtgoat666 - 12-3-2008 at 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
The statement that MOST of the noise comes not from the Blades, but the alternator is PURE BS.

ALL of the disturbing noise comes from the Blades. The lesser sound of the alternator can't even be heard because of the blade noise.

That statement makes anything the vendor would say questionable.

I am surprised to find MrBill write something I agree with.... and we all know that MrBill is an experienced at producing noise :lol:

MrBill is one of the few humanoids that can photosynthesize, so I am surprised he did not also pick up on the misinformation on photosynthesis.

dianaji - 12-3-2008 at 05:38 PM

john is not a "saleman" it's his passion and he has spent many years on this technology.

the proof will be in the pudding and i want to be one to taste it.

k-rico - 12-3-2008 at 06:09 PM

I'm wondering what the tech specs are for a $700 whirly-gig system. I have no idea about how wind turbines are rated. But, essentially, there must be some numbers that describe the electrical energy produced at a certain rpm and the sustained wind speed that creates the rpm. What are you doing? Charging up lead-acid (very unpleaseant stuff) car batteries and then converting (inverting) 12 VDC to 110 AC? Can't you get some wires strung in?

Making Noise

MrBillM - 12-4-2008 at 11:22 AM

http://www.wind-works.org/articles/noiseswt.html

"Small wind turbine noise is principally a function of tip speed and shape.
Some designs also contribute a tonal component from the alternator. (See
side bar Sources of Small Turbine Noise) Research by Nico van der Borg
at ECN found that the source strength of noise from wind turbines could
be approximated using a formula based on rotor diameter, where larger wind
turbines generate proportionally more noise than smaller machines. The model
was derived from data on experimental wind turbines designed in the 1970s
and early 1980s. Many of these early research turbines operated at very high
tip speeds. Van der Borg compared them to commercial turbines available in
the 1980s and estimated that the commercial turbines were as much 7 dB quieter
than their predecessors."

toneart - 12-4-2008 at 01:14 PM

It will be very interesting to hear from you, Dianaji, when you get yours running, assuming you will take John's advice. If the noise factor is minimal like he says, it would be useful to many of us.

Me and Sancho have been battling the damned things for almost 500 years to no avail, sometimes right here on the Nomad. On this string, we will just sit on our burros without flailing, and wait and see.

Buenas Suertes!
Sr. Toneart de Quixote

dianaji - 12-4-2008 at 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
It will be very interesting to hear from you, Dianaji, when you get yours running, assuming you will take John's advice. If the noise factor is minimal like he says, it would be useful to many of us.

Me and Sancho have been battling the damned things for almost 500 years to no avail, sometimes right here on the Nomad. On this string, we will just sit on our burros without flailing, and wait and see.

Buenas Suertes!
Sr. Toneart de Quixote

dianaji - 12-4-2008 at 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dianaji

Quote:

Buenas Suertes!
Sr. Toneart de Quixote

thank u, i appreciate your comment. i am one who hates it when someone says, "u can't do that." and love being a pioneer. nothing ventured, nothing gained! why, i still have friends tell me not to move to Mexico. Ha! i will certainly keep u informed.

Osprey - 12-4-2008 at 01:31 PM

Rosanante was not a burro. A wooden horse? Maybe.

toneart - 12-4-2008 at 01:42 PM

But these are modern times. We have to use state of the art.

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Rosanante was not a burro. A wooden horse? Maybe.

vandenberg - 12-4-2008 at 02:58 PM

" Rosinante ", litterally " a second hand nag "

images.jpg - 3kB

Bob and Susan - 12-4-2008 at 03:19 PM

toneart ... don't you have a "wind machine" already

and...

doesn't it make noise??? :spingrin:

vandenberg - 12-4-2008 at 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
toneart ... don't you have a "wind machine" already

and...

doesn't it make noise??? :spingrin:

Depends on what beans. :?:

Seeing (and Hearing) is Believing.

MrBillM - 12-4-2008 at 04:38 PM

A "revolutionary" concept or design in this field from some independent character sounds a bit like a 200mpg miracle device for the auto.

The $700 Wind Turbine "niche" is pretty well-owned by Southwest Wind Power's (now) Air-X brand and they've done a fairly decent development process since the 303. Given their research capabilities, and their market share, you would think that they would have gotten there before any minor player, but I am something of a skeptic, I guess. The Sales potential for a Turbine that out-performs the Air-X at the same price seems substantial.

That said, the Wind Turbines have their place off-the-grid, depending on electricity requirements and wind conditions. I currently have one 403 and have recommended/installed others. When asked, I always say that, for the cost of one large panel, on cloudy days you can get a lot of amps in a stiff breeze to supplement those panels. The BIG downside is your neighbors. I have firsthand knowledge of fisticuffs and worse over their use.

Not today, though. Cloudy and Calm all day. Time to run the DC generator before dark.

Like others, I WILL be waiting to hear of the "verifiable" miracle.

dianaji - 12-4-2008 at 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
A "revolutionary" concept or design in this field from some independent character sounds a bit like a 200mpg miracle device for the auto.

The $700 Wind Turbine "niche" is pretty well-owned by Southwest Wind Power's (now) Air-X brand and they've done a fairly decent development process since the 303. Given their research capabilities, and their market share, you would think that they would have gotten there before any minor player, but I am something of a skeptic, I guess. The Sales potential for a Turbine that out-performs the Air-X at the same price seems substantial.

That said, the Wind Turbines have their place off-the-grid, depending on electricity requirements and wind conditions. I currently have one 403 and have recommended/installed others. When asked, I always say that, for the cost of one large panel, on cloudy days you can get a lot of amps in a stiff breeze to supplement those panels. The BIG downside is your neighbors. I have firsthand knowledge of fisticuffs and worse over their use.

Not today, though. Cloudy and Calm all day. Time to run the DC generator before dark.

Like others, I WILL be waiting to hear of the "verifiable" miracle.

u are the first that i am inviting to a pot luck for the viewing/hearing of my windmill once it's installed. i hope u can fish, cause i love it and would love it if u would bring some...i'll furnish the beer!

oh, and, since u are experienced in this field, are u interested in installing it? i would be forever grateful.

Inverter for generator

dianaji - 12-5-2008 at 08:00 AM

Quote:

Inverter

Harbor freight has a 20 percent off sale today, so wonder if i should get one with the highest watts?

High-Output Generator.

MrBillM - 12-5-2008 at 10:35 AM

Barring an adequate Wind/Solar array, a fairly cheap alternative solution involving a Gas Generator is a DC unit that I've built a number of over the years.

Most AC Gas generators don't charge at a very high rate on the DC side. My original power system in the early 80s prior to buying my first Solar Panel was a Welded Frame with 3.5hp Tecumsah Gas engine driving a 30-amp GM Delco alternator using a Rheostat for charge control. I used to fill the gas tank, start it up and let it run dry as I went to the beach. Over the years, I've built successors for myself and others.

Although my current primary Solar array of (6) KC130 panels (with 4 more in reserve in the garage) feeding (24) Golf-Cart Deep Cycle Batteries with the Air-403 Wind Turbine and a few Gensets as alternatives works well most of the time, I still use my current DC unit (yesterday afternoon in the Gray Calm) which is an 5.5hp OHV Briggs driving another early Delco 80 amp alternator. With the current drive pulley arrangement, it easily puts out 50 Amps or more.

Those DC units can be built for a few hundred dollars depending on the cost of the Gas Engine and Alternator. Northern Tools has an excellent variety of small gas engines at great prices.

As far as installing anything for ANYBODY ever again.

NO MAS.

dianaji - 12-5-2008 at 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Barring an adequate Wind/Solar array, a fairly cheap alternative solution involving a Gas Generator is a DC unit that I've built a number of over the years.

Most AC Gas generators don't charge at a very high rate on the DC side. My original power system in the early 80s prior to buying my first Solar Panel was a Welded Frame with 3.5hp Tecumsah Gas engine driving a 30-amp GM Delco alternator using a Rheostat for charge control. I used to fill the gas tank, start it up and let it run dry as I went to the beach. Over the years, I've built successors for myself and others.

Although my current primary Solar array of (6) KC130 panels (with 4 more in reserve in the garage) feeding (24) Golf-Cart Deep Cycle Batteries with the Air-403 Wind Turbine and a few Gensets as alternatives works well most of the time, I still use my current DC unit (yesterday afternoon in the Gray Calm) which is an 5.5hp OHV Briggs driving another early Delco 80 amp alternator. With the current drive pulley arrangement, it easily puts out 50 Amps or more.

Those DC units can be built for a few hundred dollars depending on the cost of the Gas Engine and Alternator. Northern Tools has an excellent variety of small gas engines at great prices.

As far as installing anything for ANYBODY ever again.

NO MAS.

as for u installing anything for me, i was just jesting...however, would have taken u up on it, had to taken it seriously and was willing.

as for all of that stuff u said about generators, i NOTHING about any of it. i just go by intuition and thus far, it has done well by me.

as for getting a better generator, i already bought one and it is just for standby until i get my windmill or other times when it might be needed. it will suffice for now...at least i will have LIGHTS!

toneart - 12-5-2008 at 12:04 PM

Shhhhh! Before your exposure, it was still a patent secret which I selfishly protected. My methane generator does indeed make enough noise to scare away would be burglars. It is more intimidating than Mrbillm's arsenal.

It is an organic system, cost effective and has been known to compose symphonies,which is helpful in my music career. Some popular songs that it created, in which others were given the credit, are: "Blowin' in the Wind", "Cast Your Fate to the Wind", "Windmills of Your Mind", and the theme from the epic movie, "Gone With The Wind".

Bob and Susan, you people are downwind from me. So I say, "Power to the people!" Happy to share.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
toneart ... don't you have a "wind machine" already

and...

doesn't it make noise??? :spingrin:

toneart - 12-5-2008 at 12:09 PM

Dianaji,
Sorry for the hijack. Actually, it was not my fault. :saint:

Go with your intuition. Don't ask me the science behind that, but I have been amazed throughout my life on how well intuition serves. You are also backing it up by doing research. You are on the right track. I wish you success. We can all benefit. :light:

dianaji - 12-5-2008 at 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
Dianaji,
Sorry for the hijack. Actually, it was not my fault. :saint:

what do u mean "highjack"?

yes, i remember when they laughed at edison and that first guy who invented airplanes, was it wright? and i recall, they thought einstein was wrong, and, and, and the doubts, the skeptics...ohmigod!

thank u so much...u have been very encouraging, and if that damn windmill doesn't work...it will be all your fault!*grin*

Actually THEY Didn't !

MrBillM - 12-5-2008 at 05:27 PM

Laugh at either Edison or the Wright Brothers, but perhaps you came from a Public School education.

Edison was one of many working towards the same goal as were the Wright Brothers in their field of "powered" flight, various unpowered flying machines having been flown long before.

AND, people didn't laugh at Columbus (educated ones, at least) despite what the song says.

As they say, the proof's in the pudding (or the Turbine ?). We'll see, won't we ?

k-rico - 12-5-2008 at 06:54 PM

"as for all of that stuff u said about generators, i NOTHING about any of it. i just go by intuition and thus far, it has done well by me."

Really? Intuition (doesn't that mean guessing more or less?) is useful, maybe, if there is no way of knowing, but since you have an Internet connection, why not read and know?

You mentioned 500 watts, first question: Is that enough?

look here

dianaji - 12-5-2008 at 07:05 PM

Quote:

You mentioned 500 watts, first question: Is that enough?

look here

not sure what u mean about 500 watts...is that enough for what?

thanks for the link. i read it and have done a lot of research, considering my being a woman and relying on the people i meet and deal with.

k-rico - 12-6-2008 at 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dianaji

Quote:

You mentioned 500 watts, first question: Is that enough?

look here

You're pulling my Y chromosome, aren't ya? :yes:

ride, Sally Ride

[Edited on 12-6-2008 by k-rico]