BajaNomad - Tijuana- "The Stench of Decay"

Tijuana- "The Stench of Decay"

thebajarunner - 12-10-2008 at 09:48 AM

Brutal article in todays Times.
Start with the last paragraph, then work your way up.
Sickening!!!

From the Los Angeles Times
Opinion
Mexico's bloody drug war
The drug violence in Mexico rivals death tolls in Iraq.
By David Danelo

December 10, 2008

On Nov. 3, the day before Americans elected Barack Obama president, drug cartel henchmen murdered 58 people in Mexico. It was the highest number killed in one day since President Felipe Calderon took office in December 2006. By comparison, on average 26 people -- Americans and Iraqis combined -- died daily in Iraq in 2008. Mexico's casualty list on Nov. 3 included a man beheaded in Ciudad Juarez whose bloody corpse was suspended along an overpass for hours. No one had the courage to remove the body until dark.

The death toll from terrorist attacks in Mumbai two weeks ago, although horrible, approaches the average weekly body count in Mexico's war. Three weeks ago in Juarez, which is just across the Rio Grande from El Paso, Texas, telephone messages and banners threatened teachers that if they failed to pay protection money to cartels, their students would suffer brutal consequences. Local authorities responded by assigning 350 teenage police cadets to the city's 900 schools. If organized criminals wish to extract tribute from teachers, businessmen, tourists or anyone else, there is nothing the Mexican government can do to stop them. For its part, the United States has become numb to this norm.

As part of my ongoing research into border issues, I have visited Juarez six times over the last two years. Each time I return, I see a populace under greater siege. Residents possess a mentality that increasingly resembles the one I witnessed as a Marine officer in Baghdad, Fallouja and Ramadi.

"The police are nothing," a forlorn cab driver told me in September. "They cannot protect anyone. We can go nowhere else. We live in fear."

An official in El Paso estimated that up to 100,000 dual U.S.-Mexican citizens, mostly upper middle class, have fled north from Juarez to his city this year. Only those lacking means to escape remain.

At the same time, with the U.S. economy in free fall, many illegal immigrants are returning south. So illegal immigration -- the only border issue that seems to stir the masses -- made no splash in this year's elections. Mexico's chaos never surfaced as a topic in either the foreign or domestic policy presidential debates.

Despite the gravity of the crisis, our closest neighbor has fallen off our political radar. Heaven help you if you bring up the border violence at a Washington dinner party. Nobody -- Republican or Democrat -- wants to approach this thorny discussion.

Mexico, our second-largest trading partner, is a fragmenting state that may spiral toward failure as the recession and drug violence worsen. Remittances to Mexico from immigrant labor have fallen almost 20% in 2008. Following oil, tourism and remittances, drugs are the leading income stream in the Mexican economy.

While the bottom is dropping out of the oil and tourism markets, the American street price of every narcotic has skyrocketed, in part because of recent drug interdiction successes along the U.S. border.

Unfortunately, this toxic economic c-cktail also stuffs the cartels' coffers. Substitute tribal clans for drug cartels, and Mexico starts to look disturbingly similar to Afghanistan, whose economy is fueled by the heroin-based poppy trade.

Arizona Gov. Janet Napolitano, Obama's pick for Homeland Security director, has argued for permanently stationing National Guard troops along the border. That response alone will do little to assuage American border citizens. To them, talk of "violence bleeding over" is political pabulum while they watch their southern neighbors bleed.

If Napolitano wishes to stabilize the border, she will have to persuade the Pentagon and the State Department to take a greater interest in Mexico. Despite Calderon's commendable efforts to fight both the cartels and police corruption, this struggle shows no signs of slowing. When 45,000 federal troops are outgunned and outspent by opponents of uncertain but robust size, the state's legitimacy quickly deteriorates.

The Mexican state has not faced this grave a challenge to its authority since the Mexican revolution nearly a century ago.

If you want to see what Mexico will look like if this pattern continues, visit a border city like Tijuana, where nine beheaded bodies were discovered in plastic bags 10 days ago. Inhale the stench of decay. Inspect the fear on the faces. And then ask yourself how the United States is prepared to respond as Mexico's crisis increasingly becomes our own.

David J. Danelo is the author of "The Border: Exploring the U.S.-Mexican Divide" and "Blood Stripes: The Grunt's View of the War in Iraq."

DENNIS - 12-10-2008 at 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by thebajarunner
The Mexican state has not faced this grave a challenge to its authority since the Mexican revolution nearly a century ago.

The dog chases it's own tail. When it finally catches up to it, the bite won't be too hard.

standingwave - 12-10-2008 at 10:07 AM

If drugs (marijuana, cocaine, heroin, MDMA, etc. etc.) were legal in the US, would this violence be happening in Mexico?

Bajaboy - 12-10-2008 at 10:10 AM

Why not legalize it in Mexico, too? Why not push to legalize it around the World why you're at it?

DENNIS - 12-10-2008 at 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by standingwave
If drugs (marijuana, cocaine, heroin, MDMA, etc. etc.) were legal in the US, would this violence be happening in Mexico?

The rank and file involved in the drug trade in Mexico is beyond huge. What would happen to society if they had nothing to do? They'd find something and it probably wouldn't be nice. The insurgency is on and requires a warlike response. Let it begin.

flyfishinPam - 12-10-2008 at 10:20 AM

The citizens of Juarez and Tijuana need to march to Mexico City and refuse to pay any taxes until this situation can be controlled. The dual citizens or whatever who are escaping to the other side of the border are nothing but chickenchit cowards. They need to be defending their country and the dignity of its citizens not running away.

ELINVESTIG8R - 12-10-2008 at 10:47 AM

Screw all of the philosophizing. The truth of the matter is that the mass murdering going on in Mexico must stop no matter the cost. The Mexican government needs to temporarily invoke Article 29 of the Mexican constitution and suspend all civil liberties and go into a lock down of the country establishing martial law and curfew. They need to take their entire Army Air Force Navy and Marines to include their untainted federal law enforcement people and in one motion blanket the country from one end to the other sweeping across Mexico searching every person, every rancho, every house, every building block by block and either capturing or killing each and every one of these sub-human bastards. This is the only way it can be stopped.

De facto legalization

Dave - 12-10-2008 at 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by standingwave
If drugs (marijuana, cocaine, heroin, MDMA, etc. etc.) were legal in the US, would this violence be happening in Mexico?

In reality, they are. U.S. drug laws are a joke. Anyone wanting illegal drugs can get whatever, whenever they want and with little fear of retribution.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-10-2008 at 10:51 AM

Standingwave:

If all Drugs were Legal in the States, we would be in the same situtation as Mexico. Drug Addicts killing People.
Skeet/Loreto

bajajudy - 12-10-2008 at 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Standingwave:

If all Drugs were Legal in the States, we would be in the same situtation as Mexico. Drug Addicts killing People.
Skeet/Loreto

Skeet
These are not addicts killing people, they are suppliers killing people to remain the suppliers.
Supply and demand...if drugs were legal, the demand would be filled by the market place not the underground.

I dont have answers but I do believe that something had got to be done to stop this violence.

CNN International is running a program on Mexican Narco violence. I have not seen it but the trailers look pretty scary.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-10-2008 at 11:19 AM

"Drug Addicts"-- Drug Dealers" The same thing when you put anything together with Drugs you get Lack of Control and Death to innocent People.

If Drugs became Leagal in the States, the Gangs would still take over and do the same as they are doing in Mexico.

To me it is still Drugs Killing People in Mexico as the States.

Eugenio - 12-10-2008 at 11:23 AM

The way this guy (Danelo) skews statistics makes his article pretty much useless - like comparing one of the worst days in Mexico with an average day in Iraq - pure hype - and disingenuosness. But I have to agree that things are changing in Mexico - it ain't what it was.

I've lost aquaintances to this narco stuff - and doing business in Mexico you're always about one degree of separation from someone with bad connections - it's made me rethink my own actions.

But aholes like this author manipulating figures isn't part of the solution.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-10-2008 at 11:34 AM

Judy:

It does appear to me that the use of Drugs is part of the eliminatation process for those that are Weak and cannot fit into the Society of the Fitist.

In other words, the Weak are being disposed of through their use of Drugs for the benefit of P;easure and not Health.?

DENNIS - 12-10-2008 at 12:27 PM

I realize this is old news but, what hope is there for a government to fight corruption when the government is most corrupt?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MEXICO CITY, Mexico (CNN) -- "Mexican authorities have detained the country's former drug czar on suspicion that he may have accepted $450,000 a month in bribes from drug traffickers, Mexico's attorney general said Friday.

Noe Ramirez Mandujano was in charge from 2006 through August of fighting organized crime in Mexico.

Noe Ramirez Mandujano was in charge from 2006 until this August of the attorney general's office that specializes in combatting organized crime.

Ramirez is accused of meeting with members of a drug cartel while he was in office and agreeing to provide information on investigations in exchange for the bribes, Attorney General Eduardo Medina Mora Icaza said at a news conference Friday.

The arrest was part of an ongoing investigation called "Operation Limpieza," or "Operation Cleanup," the attorney general said. The operation targets officials who may have passed information to drug cartels.

The arrest was announced Thursday night, four days after the house arrest of Ricardo Gutierrez Vargas, the director for International Police Affairs at Mexico's Federal Investigative Agency and the head of Mexico's Interpol office.

Authorities say more than 30 officials have been arrested since July in connection with the anti-corruption operation.

Don't Miss
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Cartel member reportedly spied on DEA
Interpol, which is based in France, announced Wednesday it is sending a team of investigators to Mexico to investigate the possibility that its communications systems and databases may have been compromised, a prospect raised by the arrest of Gutierrez, the top official working with the agency in Mexico.

"A war of master proportions" between authorities and narcotics traffickers and traffickers among themselves has left more than 4,300 dead so far this year, according to the Council on Hemispheric Affairs, an independent research and information organization. By comparison, the council said in a report this week, there were 2,700 drug-related deaths in 2007.

"Homegrown drug cartels operating from both within and outside the country are engaging in a vicious turf war to seize control of major trafficking corridors while engaging in almost open warfare against the mobilized forces of the state," the council said about what it calls "narco-fueled crime."

Mexican leaders have been trying to tamp down the violence by tightening controls on money-laundering and cracking down on corruption among local and municipal police forces infiltrated by drug traffickers. It may not be enough.

"Due to pervasive corruption at the highest levels of the Mexican government, and the almost effortless infiltration of the porous security forces by the cartel, an ultimate victory by the state is far from certain," the Hemispheric Council concludes.

Drug trafficking in Mexico is a $20 billion- to $50 billion-a-year industry, as much as the nation earns from tourism or remittances from Mexicans living in the United States, said Robert Pastor, a former National Security adviser to President Jimmy Carter and now a professor of international relations at American University in Washington. He has been studying Latin America for more than four decades.

"This is a huge industry with an extraordinary capacity to corrupt and intimidate the country. And they're doing both right now," said Pastor, also a former director of the Carter Center's Latin American and Caribbean Program.

The drug cartels are paying some Mexican officials bribes of $150,000 to $450,000 a month, authorities have said. This in a country where the per capita income is $12,500 a year and one of every seven Mexicans lives in poverty, according to the CIA World Factbook."

woody with a view - 12-10-2008 at 12:30 PM

we used to spend 2-3 weeks at a time in pto escondido, oaxaca every summer in the late 80's. EVERY morning a 2 seater helicopter would leave the army base on the hill above the beach with only the pilot, buzz the beach about 75 feet over the sand and go spray the crops growing nearby.

does this still happen? or has the cartel grown too much so the army needs apache helo's, fully armed to run the gauntlet? we used to say the 2 seater was probably spraying a mix of water and fertilizer....maybe we were onto something!!!

god help them!

Agreed

Dave - 12-10-2008 at 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
I realize this is old news but, what hope is there for a government to fight corruption when the government is most corrupt?

Except it's not just the government. The corruption is pandemic.

toneart - 12-10-2008 at 01:13 PM

We had just exhausted this topic in another string and it finally died slowly and unresolved.

The same people are sticking to their same, old, tired and ideological (illogical) stances that have been proven to no longer work.

People are dying. Violence begets violence. That goes both ways. It is a self-perpetuating, non-solution that only serves to escalate the violence.

When we talk of trying legalization, we are talking about taking away the profit motive. People who resist this idea always have a "Yes, but....." Well, none of the "buts" are as bad or as acute as what is happening in Mexico.

Forget morality! Forget the fact that drugs kill people! Forget about the fact that addicts cause problems to society, their families and themselves! We know all that. None of this is as acute or as deadly as the current cartel activity. None of this is as acute as the prospect of Mexico becoming a failed state. None of this is as acute as the threat to trade relations with our neighbor. None of this is as acute as the threat to us, to abandon our property in Baja and not being able to travel in Mexico.

This is worse than any Afghani Tribal poppy trade. This is worse than Saddam Hussein. Those are irritants within nation states. What is happening in Mexico is an organized insurrection by killer thugs who have no national allegiance, no morality and are motivated by greed.

The cartels have escalated beyond containment. They are armed with an arsenal that Mexico cannot equal. They are emboldened by the effect they have on people by intimidation and death. They have gone beyond any moral standard. The church and their own conscience are no longer deterrents. Greed is their God. Greed and what it does to humanity is far worse than the drugs themselves!!!This is truly causing Hell on Earth.

My comments are made in disgust with the tipping of the balance. Mexico's people are losing. We are losing. And many of you are clinging to the same ol', same ol'. To me, the solution to your thinking is like what we have to do with people who become so old, demented as to be irresponsible to themselves and others; take away your keys. You guys have been in the driver's seat too long. Your judgment is impaired. We are not talking about chronological age here. I am 71! We are talking about looking at the 21st Century with fresh eyes and evolving. Your old ways are tired and they impact all of humanity.
:!:

woody with a view - 12-10-2008 at 01:23 PM

well said Tony..... too bad none here can effect change regarding this topic.....

toneart - 12-10-2008 at 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob
well said Tony..... too bad none here can effect change regarding this topic.....

Yeah, I sure wish we could effect change.

ELINVESTIG8R - 12-10-2008 at 01:39 PM

When I wrote to President Calderon a long time ago and asked him to please get more involved in stopping the violence in Baja California, a representative wrote me back and essentially told me to mind my own Gringo business.

Barry A. - 12-10-2008 at 01:50 PM

I find it disturbing, and pretty amazing that some of you think that "we cannot effect change"----------of course you can, and do, effect "change"----------by voting the way you do, by living the way you do, by standing up in your local community for what you think is right, by not turning away from what you know is wrong and simply confronting it, by dozens of ways too numerous to list------------all that "effects change", it seems to me.

People get what the permit to happen-------I believe that with all my heart!

Did not the more liberal souls out there just effect "change" in the most recent USA election???? I think so-------tho it is not the change that I would have wanted, it will be interesting and perhaps helpful to see what the new Administration can bring about.

I await that, with an open mind--------------

Stay tuned.

Barry

woody with a view - 12-10-2008 at 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
I find it disturbing, and pretty amazing that some of you think that "we cannot effect change"----------of course you can, and do, effect "change"----------by voting the way you do, by living the way you do, by standing up in your local community for what you think is right, by not turning away from what you know is wrong and simply confronting it, by dozens of ways too numerous to list------------all that "effects change", it seems to me.

People get what the permit to happen-------I believe that with all my heart!

Did not the more liberal souls out there just effect "change" in the most recent USA election???? I think so-------tho it is not the change that I would have wanted, it will be interesting and perhaps helpful to see what the new Administration can bring about.

I await that, with an open mind--------------

Stay tuned.

Barry

and this has nothing to do with the topic presented above....BTW, Barry how have you EFFECTED change in mexico's war on the cartel? telling a kid to "just say no" doesn't really work when you extrapolate it to an entire culture...

just my imagination?

edit: i'm not saying that the american culture is any better...i.e. not trying to be the pot calling the kettle black. just that one person isn't big enough to change the world.....

[Edited on 12-10-2008 by woody in ob]

[Edited on 12-10-2008 by woody in ob]

shari - 12-10-2008 at 02:08 PM

what you said Tony...very articulate.

Most of us who live here have either lost someone to or have been impacted by cartel violence...it's everywhere. We are all reflecting on how to be safer...where to eat, sleep and drink, who we associate with, how and where we recreate...and we are all being much more careful on all fronts and truly wonder where it will all end.

Dave - 12-10-2008 at 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
When we talk of trying legalization, we are talking about taking away the profit motive. People who resist this idea always have a "Yes, but....." Well, none of the "buts" are as bad or as acute as what is happening in Mexico.

If I thought that legalization would eliminate cartel profits and end the violence I would support it. In the States the end of prohibition didn't signal the end of the mafia. Decades later it was tough law and penalties (RICO) that did the trick.

Explain it to me.

standingwave - 12-10-2008 at 02:18 PM

Quote:

hmm... didn't the end of prohibition of the sale and consumption of alcohol lead to the mafia switching their activities to the drug trade?

toneart - 12-10-2008 at 02:20 PM

Quote:

Barry,
The inability to effect change was an exchange between Woody and me, within the context of our influence here on The Nomad Board. Outside of the confines of this board discussion, of course we can effect political change within The United States....and we did! :yes:

I hope this doesn't get hijacked off the topic at hand.

SunloverBaja - 12-10-2008 at 02:32 PM

I feel for the people of Baja.My family and one of our friends had shared a vacation home since 1999 south of TJ.We were lucky enough to sell it to one of our Mexican friends in August of this year for a lot less than what it was worth but for more than we paid for it. Since late last year,my wife had decided that it was dangerous and somewhat irresponsible of us as parents to bring our two children down to Baja with the amount of random violence happening.
We love Baja and love the people but it was becoming harder to convince ourselves that things would get better.We will return when authorities take back the country and keep their promise of security and justice for all people who make Mexico their home.
We will continue to miss Mexico and her people and will follow any news we get here on this board and online . We will continue to pray for all those left behind and hope for the good people to win this battle.

Rob and Cindy Boyd

ELINVESTIG8R - 12-10-2008 at 02:36 PM

I am sorry to be the one to have to say this but the only way to stop the violence in Mexico is to fight drug cartels with extreme government violence. You cannot ask a cartel killer armed with a fully automatic rifle to please stop killing people. Legalizing drugs will not stop it, nor will praying to Jesus or God stop it. The only solution is to be meaner and stronger than the drug cartel killers and clean their clocks.

OK...Back on topic

Dave - 12-10-2008 at 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
I hope this doesn't get hijacked off the topic at hand.

Quote:

David Danelo writes:

When 45,000 federal troops are outgunned and outspent by opponents of uncertain but robust size, the state's legitimacy quickly deteriorates.

Hogwash. The Mexican armed forces are neither outgunned or outspent. Their commanders are outwilled.

Barry A. - 12-10-2008 at 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

Barry,
The inability to effect change was an exchange between Woody and me, within the context of our influence here on The Nomad Board. Outside of the confines of this board discussion, of course we can effect political change within The United States....and we did! :yes:

I hope this doesn't get hijacked off the topic at hand.

Tony------My comments, to me, were completely within the parameters of the original thrust of this thread, and said in a generic way to apply to ALL cultures and Nations.

No change will really occur until the majority of peoples "take a stand" for, or against, what they want changed.

I tend to agree with Elvester18 ----------

Barry

Bajaboy - 12-10-2008 at 03:09 PM

I tend to agree with Barry. I hear too many people on both sides of the border talk about ending the violence. Here in San Diego, some teens were shot and killed. There is a huge uproar about ending the violence. But my question to this group and to an extent those in Baja, what are you prepared to do? Are you going to turn in your friend who is doing drugs? What about your brother who you know is in a gang...are you willing to turn on him? What about the guy doing work on your house at below market rates because he got a "good deal" on some stolen supplies? What about saying no more to the gangsta glamour that has taken over our airwaves and televisions?

Nothing will change in my opinion until we have said no more to some of these issues. It starts with each one of us. It's not the cartels, it's us that is allowing this violence to continue.

DianaT - 12-10-2008 at 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
I tend to agree with Barry. I hear too many people on both sides of the border talk about ending the violence. Here in San Diego, some teens were shot and killed. There is a huge uproar about ending the violence. But my question to this group and to an extent those in Baja, what are you prepared to do? Are you going to turn in your friend who is doing drugs? What about your brother who you know is in a gang...are you willing to turn on him? What about the guy doing work on your house at below market rates because he got a "good deal" on some stolen supplies? What about saying no more to the gangsta glamour that has taken over our airwaves and televisions?

Nothing will change in my opinion until we have said no more to some of these issues. It starts with each one of us. It's not the cartels, it's us that is allowing this violence to continue.

Some of us have turned in family gang members and drug addicts---some of us have had very personal experiences with same. Some of us have lived with the destruction of human life and families more from the crime involved than the addiction---the crime to obtain the money for the drugs.

Addict and cartel---money and violence. Tony said it all best, but to legalize would not eliminate all crime ---but this so called war on drugs in BOTH countries is a joke---time to go back to the time many years ago when many of the current illegal drugs were NOT illegal. Still destroyed a lot of lives, but without the crime and violence.

Diane

Woooosh - 12-10-2008 at 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
I realize this is old news but, what hope is there for a government to fight corruption when the government is most corrupt?

Except it's not just the government. The corruption is pandemic.

IMHO- the corruption problem has grass roots- from the bottom up. It's their way of distributing wealth because the guy on the other end is an underpaid civil servant.

If I leave a bag of treats on the floor- I don't blame my dog for eating them all. If Mexicans have culturally accepted bribery as legitimate, you can't blame the system for taking advantage of them. Of course eventually the dog gets used to the whole bag of treats and demands them.

"With Operation Cleanup, we will continue acting against police, agents, public ministers or any servant implicated in corruption who may have crossed over the line to crime."

The problem extends beyond bureaucracy. A poll by the organization International Transparency shows that Mexico is one of the emerging countries where businesses are more open to paying bribes. In all, 38 percent of Mexican businesses surveyed said they tended to use relationships with friends or relatives to obtain public contracts, and 32 percent said they had bribed politicians and government workers.

"Clearly, this lends itself to corruption," said Jose Claudio Trevino, a senior manager with Ernst & Young in Mexico. Corruption is rampant in the private sector, particularly in deals that involve buying or selling, he said.

According to official studies, more than 100 million acts of corruption are committed in the country each year, and the typical family spends the equivalent of 25 percent of its income on bribes. "

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/12/09/mexico.corr...

[Edited on 12-11-2008 by Woooosh]

woody with a view - 12-10-2008 at 07:56 PM

Quote:

According to official studies, more than 100 million acts of corruption are committed in the country each year, and the typical family spends the equivalent of 25 percent of its income on bribes. "

sorry....

if this is true there is NO hope!!! :no:

An unfair analogy

Dave - 12-10-2008 at 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
If I leave a bag of treats on the floor- I don't blame my dog for eating them all.

Dogs cannot discern right from wrong.

Of course!

toneart - 12-10-2008 at 08:31 PM

Attack all of these affronts of corruption.That is a factor in all of this. But that is a battle that will take generations to overcome. It is ingrained into the culture. It is what makes the wheels turn in Mexico.

Turn in whomever, but only if you fully realize the potential consequences. That is up to the individual. If you have a family, those are loved ones you have to consider. I think it is beyond that stage. The evil recriminations are too foreboding. Principle will not prevent you from ending up headless. That would be the final chapter in your principles, your morality, your strong will and your your outrage. Don't forget; your brain gets lopped off along with your head. Your attitude will be severely truncated.

Yes! Battle drug addiction. Intervene. Educate. Don't give up. There is no reason why all these battles can't be fought simultaneously.

All I am saying is to try something new. Prioritize. Think clearly.
Sure, these thugs will find other illicit activities if drugs are legalized, but their profit motive in drugs will be compromised. Their respective organization will be more fragmented, rendering them weaker and more vulnerable. Easier to pick off.

First things first. Diffuse, Fragment, confuse, but stop the current momentum of violence! Then deal with what comes next. Be smart! :light:

toneart - 12-10-2008 at 08:34 PM

There is hope! :light:

Woooosh - 12-10-2008 at 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
If I leave a bag of treats on the floor- I don't blame my dog for eating them all.

Dogs cannot discern right from wrong.

My dogs know which behaviors they get rewarded for and which behaviors they don't. Someone has to be the trainer though.

Barry A. - 12-10-2008 at 08:43 PM

toneArt------------Very well said, and I think you are on to something here.

Barry

DENNIS - 12-10-2008 at 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
First things first. Diffuse, Fragment, confuse, but stop the current momentum of violence! Then deal with what comes next. Be smart! :light:

Well said, Tony, very well said. Makes me wonder though.......does anybody have any idea the size of the enemy? Does anybody know their strength? They seem to be asserting themselves in new territory lately. Between the government and the enemy, who has the most soldiers, the most guns, the most money? Has anybody seen intel or qualified opinions in regard to these questions? I don't know that there are answers at this time but, it seems necessary to know these things before a strategy can be formed.
Anyway, I think "Good" is going against an "Evil" the likes of which have never been seen before.

k-rico - 12-11-2008 at 07:03 AM

I'm glad to see so many enlightened people on this message board. The obvious solution to the illegal drug problem is crystal clear, make them legal! One wonders why others can't see the simple-minded logic.

As toneart said: "When we talk of trying legalization, we are talking about taking away the profit motive."

Legal businesses are all about profit.

Another toneart snippet: "What is happening in Mexico is an organized insurrection by killer thugs who have no national allegiance, no morality and are motivated by greed."

Well, how about this: "What happened on Wall Street was an organized LEGAL insurrection by self motivated bankers who have no national allegiance, no morality and are motivated by greed."

Shari said toneart is very articulate. So is MrBillM who is advocating murdering Obama. So much for being a good wordsmith.

Therefore, let's legalize drugs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

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Leave the 9 to 5 grind. Get in on this new profitable business now!

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Seriously folks, what do you mean by legalizing addictive, dangerous drugs? How would that be implemented?

[Edited on 12-11-2008 by k-rico]

Eugenio - 12-11-2008 at 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
I'm glad to see so many enlightened people on this message board. The obvious solution to the illegal drug problem is crystal clear, make them legal! One wonders why others can't see the simple-minded logic.

]

...and when the cartels and gangs switch to kidnapping and demanding "protection money" from people and businesses we'll just make that legal too...

Gosh - how simple. It's all so crystal clear to me now - why couldn't I see that before...

(Don't start the drug-crimes-are-victimless-crimes argument with me. I've seen too much. Our kids deserve better.)

C'mon, let's get real

Dave - 12-11-2008 at 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Between the government and the enemy, who has the most soldiers, the most guns, the most money? Has anybody seen intel or qualified opinions in regard to these questions?

Mexico has a 230,000 standing army with modern automatic weapons, granade launchers, mortars, 105 howitzers, anti-tank missles and tanks. They got armored personnel carriers, helicopters and jets.

Who do you think has the most toys?

BTW, welcome back.

ELINVESTIG8R - 12-11-2008 at 10:47 AM

Can I just say this; AND, NO this is not a finger pointing statement to anyone in particular; BUT, if someone uses illicit drugs; which, we all know are being moved by the drug cartels, then those people who uses those drugs are guilty of helping perpetuate the continuing killings that are on-going. Those people may not have pulled the trigger but they sure use the drug product for which the murders are committed.

NOTE: LEGALIZATION WILL NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM EITHER.

[Edited on 12-11-2008 by ELINVESTI8]

DENNIS - 12-11-2008 at 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Mexico has a 230,000 standing army
.
.
BTW, welcome back.

That's a lot of people in uniform but, it still misses the question. How many can the cartels with their affiliates put in the trenches, all with bad attitude and no inscriptions? If they were to organize an alliance, well, it's a scarey thought.

Thanks. Good to be back.

DENNIS - 12-11-2008 at 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
with modern automatic weapons, granade launchers, mortars, 105 howitzers, anti-tank missles and tanks. They got armored personnel carriers, helicopters and jets.

Who do you think has the most toys?

Allow me to expand my thoughts here........All these toys are impressive but, useless if they don't know where to aim them. At this point, the government weapon of choice should be pure and simple torture. Questions need to be answered assuming real questions are allowed to be asked. If the intel problem were farmed out to the KGB, a directory of participants would be on the table in thirty days.

Only my opinions...

Dave - 12-11-2008 at 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
How many can the cartels with their affiliates put in the trenches, all with bad attitude and no inscriptions?

Committed fighters that would stand up to an organized force? Dozens, perhaps a hundred. These guys wouldn't even make respectable revolutionaries. They're cowards.

The point was that against a modern armed force there would be no contest. Mexico could level TJ if it wanted. Encircle neighborhoods, house to house searches. It would be over in weeks.

toneart - 12-11-2008 at 11:44 AM

Hey, K-rico,

Can I get all that in cyber space without participating in criminal activity or addiction?....a kind of virtual, sensual theme park? Where do I stand in line for the glasses and the software?

DENNIS - 12-11-2008 at 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

They're cowards.

The point was that against a modern armed force there would be no contest. Mexico could level TJ if it wanted. Encircle neighborhoods, house to house searches. It would be over in weeks.

They may be cowards but, they are effective and through terrorism they're scoring heavily. Ché did it, Geronimo gave it a good shot, Fidel did it, Ortega did it, Khomeni did it and many others did it, all facing insurmountable odds and armament. What they lack here is widespread organization. That the scumbags still compete with one another for the same prize is working well for the government.

Surround and cleanse Tijuana? Good idea but, since they don't were insignias or nametags, who do you approach?

This conversation is better suited for your bar with my credit card.

Credit card?

Dave - 12-11-2008 at 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
This conversation is better suited for your bar with my credit card.

toneart - 12-11-2008 at 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
How many can the cartels with their affiliates put in the trenches, all with bad attitude and no inscriptions?

So Dave,
Why wouldn't Mexico want to encircle TJ? They have, haven't they? With all that organized government firepower, why are the cartels still creating so much mayhem and death?

DENNIS - 12-11-2008 at 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Credit card?

Sorry...I meant out-of-state two party checks.

ELINVESTIG8R - 12-11-2008 at 12:07 PM

Toneart because the Mexican government must still adhere to the constitution. Once they suspend it they can go house to house street by street block by block and rancho by rancho and route out the bad guys. Until then status quo.

Dave - 12-11-2008 at 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
They may be cowards but, they are effective and through terrorism they're scoring heavily. Ché did it, Geronimo gave it a good shot, Fidel did it, Ortega did it

You don't see 'em shooting up any army checkpoints, do ya?

Fidel & Ché were professional revolutionaries. These guys are common thugs. The only reason why they're killing civilians and cops is 'cause they have better weapons, it's easy and they stand a good chance of getting away with it. They wouldn't last 3 minutes in a firefight against trained military personnel.

Because they haven't used it

Dave - 12-11-2008 at 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
With all that organized government firepower, why are the cartels still creating so much mayhem and death?

The checkpoints are a joke. Everyone knows where they are. Hell, even I know how to avoid them. The army has yet to use any appreciable force against the cartels. Why they don't is anybody's guess.

DENNIS - 12-11-2008 at 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Fidel & Ché were professional revolutionaries.

These guys are common thugs. The only reason why they're killing civilians and cops is 'cause they have better weapons, it's easy and they stand a good chance of getting away with it. They wouldn't last 3 minutes in a firefight against trained military personnel.

How many revolutions were they involved in before Cuba? I don't know but, I thought it was their first and being professional, who paid them? Isn't that like being a mercenary? I thought their purpose ran deeper.

As far as the three minute firefight collecting the garbage, that's probably why they'll avoid that when at all possible. We can't forget the effectivness of Guerilla warfare in Nam, speaking of viability against a muscle-bound fighting force.

I don't think it's in anybody's best interest to underestimate these people so, that being said, how about a thirty day running tab? I'll bet you give those out to everybody.

It depends...

Dave - 12-11-2008 at 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
how about a thirty day running tab? I'll bet you give those out to everybody.

On how fast you can run. :rolleyes:

DENNIS - 12-11-2008 at 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Depends on how fast you can run. :rolleyes:

And, that would depend on where I last ate.

toneart - 12-11-2008 at 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ELINVESTI8
Toneart because the Mexican government must still adhere to the constitution. Once they suspend it they can go house to house street by street block by block and rancho by rancho and route out the bad guys. Until then status quo.

Of course! Thank you. :light:

ELINVESTIG8R - 12-11-2008 at 06:09 PM

Toneart, I realize it was a rhetorical question!