BajaNomad

Friendship Park closure

Ken Cooke - 1-7-2009 at 08:49 AM


Fernando Orozco and his wife, Marta Ramos, embrace through the iron posts of the U.S.-Mexico border fence. Orozco is a legal U.S. resident who works in Santa Monica; his wife is a Mexican citizen. When construction of a second parallel fence through Border Field State Park is completed later this year, reunions like this won't be possible.


There are just two weeks left in his presidency, but down in San Diego County the heavy machinery is grinding away at one last grand project from the administration of George W. Bush.

As The Times reported Sunday, your tax dollars are paying for contractors to move mountains of earth and make canyons disappear at the U.S.-Mexico border. New fences are rising and a no-man's land is being carved into the Earth.



By government decree, state and federal laws that might have slowed down the project -- including the Clean Water and Endangered Species acts -- have been suspended in the name of national security.



This hurried display of Pharaonic excess from the people who brought us the Iraq war won't make us much safer. It's another bit of overkill that's blind to the causes of illegal immigration. And it also happens to be killing a place called Friendship.



Friendship Park sits on a spot of California territory overlooking the beach where the border reaches the Pacific Ocean. In the early 1970s, President Nixon and then-Gov. Ronald Reagan established it as a symbol of international goodwill.

These days, contractors hired by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security have sealed off its picnic benches with hurricane fencing.

For three decades, the park has been property of the state of California and a cross-border meeting place. Fernando Orozco, a legal U.S. resident, biked there Sunday. He recently had his wallet and ID stolen, and the park is the only place where he can see his wife, Marta Ramos, a Mexican national. They embraced and kissed through the fence.

John Fanestil, a United Methodist minister, is one of several activists who say they are determined to "use the park for its intended purpose." Even as the construction project marches toward the sea, Fanestil holds Communion at the fence every week, passing a chalice of wine over or through the barriers.

"There is no accountability and no check on the power of Homeland Security," he told me as we hiked to the fence. "What they're doing here is almost punitive."

Illegal border crossings at the park stopped being a major problem more than a decade ago -- that traffic moved inland, to the Sonoran Desert, after the Clinton administration's Operation Gatekeeper brought fences, cameras, floodlights and motion detectors to the area. But the current administration's determination to build ever-higher barriers has not flagged.

In November, two members of Congress, half a dozen state legislators and Lt. Gov. John Garamendi wrote to President-elect Obama's transition team asking that he "intervene to save Friendship Park."

But construction has continued. And on Sunday, Fanestil, 47, passed tortillas that doubled as Communion wafers through the border. Border Patrol agents had prevented him from climbing up to the bluff and his usual spot near the picnic benches, so he held the ceremony at the beach. "Just another day at Friendship Park," he said afterward.

A lot of history has unfolded on that spot of earth and sand, much of it reflecting the tortured and ambivalent relationship we have with our Spanish-speaking neighbor to the south.

On Oct. 10, 1849, in the wake of the Mexican War, a group of U.S. and Mexican surveyors met there and began mapping the frontier. First Lady Pat Nixon dedicated Friendship Park in 1971, and even reached across the border to shake a hand or two. Until recently, you could picnic in its half-acre plaza, or walk up to the obelisk that marks the first point in the 1849 survey. You could even put your fingers through the fence and talk to someone on the other side.

That was the era of "friendship." John Carlos Frey, a San Diego native and filmmaker who joined me on my hike with Fanestil, remembers celebrating his ninth birthday at Friendship Park in 1972.

"My Mexican relatives passed their presents over the fence," he said. "And we could walk over to the Mexican side and buy some tacos if we liked. It wasn't a big deal."

Then came the era of The Wall, which was spurred by the anarchy of the 1980s and '90s. Large crowds of illegal crossers gathered at the bluff and nearby canyons at night to rush past the overmatched Border Patrol.

The fences the Clinton administration built in response shifted illegal immigration but didn't stop it. In the first years of this century, migrants have paid increasingly higher fees to smugglers who ferry them through the distant desert.

Last year, when I lived in Mexico City, I knew one woman whose husband paid $3,000 to a "coyote" to get across the border. He later called from Phoenix to say the smuggler was holding him hostage and demanding $500 more. It seems crazy that anyone would try to cross that desert by dealing with such criminals -- but many take the risk and make it across.

Even if the U.S. government managed to hermetically seal the land and river border, experts predict the smugglers would simply move out to the Gulf of Mexico, much like the Africans who cross the Mediterranean Sea to enter Europe.

What will stop illegal immigration is a mega-construction project of justice on the Latin American side of the border, the sudden leveling of mountains of inequality.

That won't happen soon. But in the meantime, the crackdown on employers and the slowdown in the U.S. economy are succeeding in keeping more people on the other side.

"They don't want us over there any more," a Salvadoran man named Walter told me through the fence when I visited Friendship Park last spring.

He had been deported from the U.S. a year earlier, after 15 years in Los Angeles. His wife, U.S. citizen Alicia Sandoval, had moved to Tijuana to live with him and their two children. On the weekends, they come to the park to peer into the country where they used to live.

"Tijuana is not a good place to be," Alicia told me through the fence. "There's too much violence."

A few minutes later, I met another woman, Angelica, who stood on the other side of the fence with her son, 9-year-old Eduardo. She wept when I told her that a Border Patrol agent had chased everyone else away, saying the park was closed.

She had come to the fence to meet her husband, a Cuban musician who had obtained asylum in the U.S.

The boy peered through the steel mesh into the United States, as if his father might appear suddenly on the empty trails and wetlands on the other side.

DENNIS - 1-7-2009 at 08:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke

Fernando Orozco and his wife, Marta Ramos, embrace through the iron posts of the U.S.-Mexico border fence. Orozco is a legal U.S. resident who works in Santa Monica; his wife is a Mexican citizen. When construction of a second parallel fence through Border Field State Park is completed later this year, reunions like this won't be possible.




What? An end to conjugal visits? Homeland Security has no heart.
I wonder if Fernando and Marta have tried to start a family through that fence.

Ken Cooke - 1-7-2009 at 09:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke

Fernando Orozco and his wife, Marta Ramos, embrace through the iron posts of the U.S.-Mexico border fence. Orozco is a legal U.S. resident who works in Santa Monica; his wife is a Mexican citizen. When construction of a second parallel fence through Border Field State Park is completed later this year, reunions like this won't be possible.


What? An end to conjugal visits? Homeland Security has no heart.
I wonder if Fernando and Marta have tried to start a family through that fence.


I feel bad for this couple. I honestly do. Hopefully, Fernando will get his identification asap so he can visit Marta. But you have to admit, this is a sad sight to see for what looks like a nice, legitimate couple.

David K - 1-7-2009 at 09:14 AM

Fernando and Marta:

It is a border, if they want to be together one needs to cross over. Is that too hard to figure out?... one needs to cross over...

Since we are being invaded (daily) by those who won't come across legally or by those who wish us harm, our government is doing what it can to protect us from lawbreakers and terrorists.

Like anyone else from Mexico who wants to visit the U.S. legally, she needs a visa. What is the problem, why is she special? Why did he leave her in Mexico and come here when he knew she couldn't? Nothing is stopping him from walking into Mexico... he can do that.

DENNIS - 1-7-2009 at 09:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke

Fernando Orozco and his wife, Marta Ramos, embrace through the iron posts of the U.S.-Mexico border fence. Orozco is a legal U.S. resident who works in Santa Monica; his wife is a Mexican citizen. When construction of a second parallel fence through Border Field State Park is completed later this year, reunions like this won't be possible.


What? An end to conjugal visits? Homeland Security has no heart.
I wonder if Fernando and Marta have tried to start a family through that fence.


I feel bad for this couple. I honestly do. Hopefully, Fernando will get his identification asap so he can visit Marta. But you have to admit, this is a sad sight to see for what looks like a nice, legitimate couple.


What do you mean? The caption says he's a legal resident. Why doesn't he have ID?

Ken Cooke - 1-7-2009 at 09:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Nothing is stopping him from walking into Mexico... he can do that.


He lost his ID, David. I'm sure he's back in Tijuana with Marta on weekends by now.

CaboRon - 1-7-2009 at 09:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Fernando and Marta:

It is a border, if they want to be together one needs to cross over. Is that too hard to figure out?... one needs to cross over...

Since we are being invaded (daily) by those who won't come across legally or by those who wish us harm, our government is doing what it can to protect us from lawbreakers and terrorists.

Like anyone else from Mexico who wants to visit the U.S. legally, she needs a visa. What is the problem, why is she special? Why did he leave her in Mexico and come here when he knew she couldn't? Nothing is stopping him from walking into Mexico... he can do that.


Wow, I am agreeing with David here ... we are not getting the whole story from this heart rending photo .... they might be passing contraband ..... maybe she supplies Mexican Brown to him so he can sell in the states ....

You Never Know,
Do You ?

CaboRon

Visa issues

Ken Cooke - 1-7-2009 at 09:29 AM



David, she can't get a visa, because Fernando isn't a US CITIZEN. In order for her to get her papers in place, Fernando needs to make the change from US Resident to US Citizen.

He would then petition the consulate for a hearing into the matter, and after a year or so, they could be joined together. But, first he would have to gather the money and possibly legal representation if he wasn't well versed in International legal matters.

[Edited on 1-7-2009 by Ken Cooke]

k-rico - 1-7-2009 at 09:33 AM

I visit that area occasionally and it is sad that these folks won't be able to meet any longer. There is no way illegals can cross at that spot without getting caught. If that was a problem the simple chain link fence would have been replaced long ago.

Someone asked "Why did he leave her in Mexico and come here when he knew she couldn't?"

Perhaps to mow your lawn, pick up your garbage, or wash your car so he can provide food and shelter for his family in a place he can afford (TJ).

David K - 1-7-2009 at 09:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Nothing is stopping him from walking into Mexico... he can do that.


He lost his ID, David. I'm sure he's back in Tijuana with Marta on weekends by now.


Yes I read that... they don't check IDs walking into Mexico.

What I'm getting at Ken is how the media uses photos like this to create sympathy for those 'poor' people and anger at the 'evil' Republicans... The fact is he can be with her now... him losing his ID is not our fault... and he can get it replaced, if it isn't a fake. He also left her in Mexico... that also is not our fault.

Just making some observations here, I hope they are together and happy! Thanks for sharing.

[Edited on 1-7-2009 by David K]

Ken Cooke - 1-7-2009 at 09:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Yes I read that... they don't check IDs walking into Mexico.

Just making some observations here, I hope they are together and happy! Thanks for sharing.


Fernando has plenty of paperwork to file both for himself and later on down the line for Marta. I agree with K-Rico that he is probably here in the US to earn some money to help support Marta back in Tijuana. He did ride a bicycle to the park and not a quad, so I'm sure he's just scraping by.

David K - 1-7-2009 at 09:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke


David, she can't get a visa, because Fernando isn't a US CITIZEN. In order for her to get her papers in place, Fernando needs to make the change from US Resident to US Citizen.

He would then petition the consulate for a hearing into the matter, and after a year or so, they could be joined together. But, first he would have to gather the money and possibly legal representation if he wasn't well versed in International legal matters.

[Edited on 1-7-2009 by Ken Cooke]


That's not the facts at all... A Mexican doesn't need to have a U.S. spouse to get a visa. Mexicans with visas cross the border legally very day to shop, work, go to Sea World, etc. Antonio comes here to buy things for Baja Cactus...

k-rico - 1-7-2009 at 09:51 AM

Maybe she can't get a visa because she has a spouse in the US and US immigration would assume that once she crossed she wouldn't return to Mexico. Of course Mexican citizens can get tourist visas but they have to convince US immigration that they will return to Mexico. From what I understand Mexicans who don't own property and/or can prove they are gainfully employed in Mexico have a difficult time getting visas.

Not all Mexicans who request visas get them.

[Edited on 1-7-2009 by k-rico]

k-rico - 1-7-2009 at 10:18 AM

I know hard border liners probably won't agree with me but the US missed a good opportunity to show some sensitivity to the immigration problem and build some good will with the people of a neighboring country.

Instead of building a wall, Friendship Park could have been enhanced and made more secure while still enabling people to meet and talk. It is a popular spot for Mexicans from all over Mexico to visit when in Tijuana and building a wall will just increase the contempt for the US felt by many Mexicans and others.

I guess they'll have to rename the park.

mtgoat666 - 1-7-2009 at 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
I guess they'll have to rename the park.


Friendship park? We should rename it "heartless republican" park.

BajaGringo - 1-7-2009 at 10:42 AM

David:

I understand your basic point but something you have no concept of is how hard it has now gotten to even obtain a tourist visa. My son is an Argentine citizen, has had a valid passport his entire life and was granted several visas during his first 25 years of life to come and visit the US. He was never involved in any trouble of any kind in any of his visits, never overstayed a visit and has never had even so much as a traffic ticket in Argentina. He recently graduated from law school in Buenos Aires and is building a successful practice there.

He has been denied a tourist visa now his last three attempts with zero reason given.

It is not simply a matter of just applying for a visa my friend and I am sure that if the shoe was on the other foot and you were the one living this very difficult experience your perspective would be quite different. It is easy to just assume that those denied visas are for reasons like criminal records, etc but the reality is quite a different story.

In between black and white exists many shades of gray...

DENNIS - 1-7-2009 at 10:48 AM

I thought the U.S. showed lots of sensitivity when we built a sewege treatment plant to deal with the Tijuana waste dumped into the river. If the waste had hit the ocean and gone south instead of north, the "So what" attitude from Mexico might have been different

Building and maintaining a "Love Park" would be a good movie but, wouldn't remain altruistic and pure for long. Who would police it? It would turn into a demonstration park.

rayfornario - 1-7-2009 at 10:55 AM

I think many of you are missing the point Ken was making about the closure.
It makes no sense whatsover!!! You can't build a fence to Hawaii so Border patrol will have to be staioned at Friendship park 24/7 to watch for illegals that might swim AROUND the fence.
We have just lost a little bit more of our humanity with the closing of this park!!!!:(

Ken Cooke - 1-7-2009 at 11:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-ricoIt is a popular spot for Mexicans from all over Mexico to visit when in Tijuana and building a wall will just increase the contempt for the US felt by many Mexicans and others.

I guess they'll have to rename the park.


I wish this park could have been enhanced like you said. It would have been great to see it improved, with better lighting, and more parking near "La Bola".

DENNIS - 1-7-2009 at 11:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rayfornario
We have just lost a little bit more of our humanity with the closing of this park!!!!:(


It's seldom that Homeland Security will be credited for sensitivity. Have you had your genitals exposed through an Xray machine at the airport lately?

OK...Bad type of fence but, the fence has been mandated. Doubt we'll ever see their lack of effort in the back country. This over-kill fence is just a visible showpiece.

Barry A. - 1-7-2009 at 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
David:

I understand your basic point but something you have no concept of is how hard it has now gotten to even obtain a tourist visa. My son is an Argentine citizen, has had a valid passport his entire life and was granted several visas during his first 25 years of life to come and visit the US. He was never involved in any trouble of any kind in any of his visits, never overstayed a visit and has never had even so much as a traffic ticket in Argentina. He recently graduated from law school in Buenos Aires and is building a successful practice there.

He has been denied a tourist visa now his last three attempts with zero reason given.

It is not simply a matter of just applying for a visa my friend and I am sure that if the shoe was on the other foot and you were the one living this very difficult experience your perspective would be quite different. It is easy to just assume that those denied visas are for reasons like criminal records, etc but the reality is quite a different story.

In between black and white exists many shades of gray...


Curious------------my nephew is married to an Argentinian, and her relatives (8 of them) come to the USA to visit at least 3 times a year with no problems.

Go figure.

Like David says, it's A BORDER folks, and should not be crossed illegally, period. Everything we can do to facilitate the security of that border is legit, in my mind----------remember RULE OF LAW????

Jeeesessss!!!!

Barry

BajaGringo - 1-7-2009 at 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Curious------------my nephew is married to an Argentinian, and her relatives (8 of them) come to the USA to visit at least 3 times a year with no problems.

Go figure.


My son never had a problem in all these years and made over a dozen trips through the years. Talking with folks I am getting the impression that he might have been denied because he is young, single and professional. I guess they see him now as a risk to want to stay in the US, in spite of all the previous stays with no problem.

Ever since homeland security has gotten involved the process has turned into a bureaucratic nightmare...

Ken Cooke - 1-7-2009 at 11:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Ever since homeland security has gotten involved the process has turned into a bureaucratic nightmare...


Baja Gringo -- Since your son now resides in Argentina, what are his chances of visiting you north of Mexico City? Are the difficulties in getting a visa much worse in reaching Tijuana?

Barry A. - 1-7-2009 at 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Curious------------my nephew is married to an Argentinian, and her relatives (8 of them) come to the USA to visit at least 3 times a year with no problems.

Go figure.


My son never had a problem in all these years and made over a dozen trips through the years. Talking with folks I am getting the impression that he might have been denied because he is young, single and professional. I guess they see him now as a risk to want to stay in the US, in spite of all the previous stays with no problem.

Ever since homeland security has gotten involved the process has turned into a bureaucratic nightmare...


I don't know--------my nephews wife's father, and attorney practicing in Argentina, is here right now for a 2 week stay.
He says he has no problem with "security" in the USA, and agrees with it.

(??????_

Barry

BajaGringo - 1-7-2009 at 01:41 PM

My guess is that being married with a family in Argentina is a big help. They look for reasons that will make you want to "return" to your country when granting a visa now. My son is young and single. They totally ignored his 21 years of entering legally and always returning within the stay limits. Ask your nephews family in Argentina how many folks they know in the same boat as my son and I will bet you lunch they will tell you of many...

Ken, my son can freely travel to Mexico and Canada without any problem whatsoever. That is another bonus I have in living here in Baja. The problem is that my mom is now in her 80's and when the inevitable day comes of her passing, my son will not be able to attend his grandmothers funeral.

It is very sad and frustrating. Like I said, until it hits you personally and you get to see the "other side" of this issue you really can't understand. Years ago I was agreeing with all of you on the other side of this issue.

My perspective has now changed and thus my opinions as well. Welcome to life...

The Sculpin - 1-7-2009 at 01:56 PM

Borders are anachronisms - they have far outlived their usefulness. Why is it capital is allowed to move freely in the world but labor is not? How different do you think both countries would be if mexicans were allowed to work in the US, and americans were allowed to work in mexico. I would say both countries would be far better off than they are today. There are two things that start wars; religion and borders. Since religion only seems to be getting more entrenched and more pernicious, we can at leats do something sensible about borders. And yes, republicans are evil - (couldn't resist).

Edit: the evil comment was a jab at DK - I admire the simplicity of his world view - yes, there's plenty of blame to go around.

[Edited on 1-7-2009 by The Sculpin]

BajaGringo - 1-7-2009 at 02:03 PM

I agree with many of your points but their is plenty of blame to go around on this. It is not simply just a "republican" issue. Many democrats have signed on as well...

Capital moves freely?

Dave - 1-7-2009 at 02:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by The Sculpin
Borders are anachronisms - they have far outlived their usefulness. Why is it capital is allowed to move freely in the world but labor is not? How different do you think both countries would be if mexicans were allowed to work in the US, and americans were allowed to work in mexico.


In your dreams. :rolleyes:

Like labor, there are regulations on the movement of capital. Unless it's in your trunk. ;D

And... Mexicans are allowed to work in the U.S. just as Americans are allowed to work in Mexico. (Key word is allow.)

Barry A. - 1-7-2009 at 03:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by The Sculpin
Borders are anachronisms - they have far outlived their usefulness. Why is it capital is allowed to move freely in the world but labor is not? How different do you think both countries would be if mexicans were allowed to work in the US, and americans were allowed to work in mexico. I would say both countries would be far better off than they are today. There are two things that start wars; religion and borders. Since religion only seems to be getting more entrenched and more pernicious, we can at leats do something sensible about borders. And yes, republicans are evil - (couldn't resist).

Edit: the evil comment was a jab at DK - I admire the simplicity of his world view - yes, there's plenty of blame to go around.

[Edited on 1-7-2009 by The Sculpin]


Dwelling on "complexity" is why problems seldom get solved. When you simplify the problem, it is much easier to see "the way" thru it, and solve it. NOTHING in life is really all that simple----------you simply have to reduce things to simplicity as best you can, and then do what is best for the most people, it seems to me-----and of course everybody will not agree--------that is just a given.

It's called "management", and often "leadership".

(of course, what do I know-----I am a "mean" and "evil" Republican.) :lol:

Barry

k-rico - 1-7-2009 at 03:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
I thought the U.S. showed lots of sensitivity when we built a sewege treatment plant to deal with the Tijuana waste dumped into the river. If the waste had hit the ocean and gone south instead of north, the "So what" attitude from Mexico might have been different

Building and maintaining a "Love Park" would be a good movie but, wouldn't remain altruistic and pure for long. Who would police it? It would turn into a demonstration park.


Eventhough sewage treatment has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, you should know that the treatment plant was paid for by both Americans and Mexicans, working together to solve a problem. I know that you think the Mexicans should have paid for it all but if you own property in Mexico and pay property taxes I bet you brag about how cheap it is to live in Mexico right after you b-tch about the lack of infrastructure.

What's wrong with a "Love Park" as you call it? I suppose a "Hate Park" would better suit you.

There is now and will always be a strong border patrol presence policing the area because it is a stone's throw from the beach where you can swim from Mexico to the US around the fence in 10 minutes, or just walk around at extreme low tides. The place is manned 7/24, lit up like a football field at night, and full of electronic sensors. Plus there is almost constant helicopter flight operations going on at the nearby NAS that include flying along the border.

The US really blew a good opportunity to do something simple that would mean much to many people. If you've never seen what happens at this park, families and friends visiting though the fence, many smiles, many tears, you don't really understand. It is really sad to see this happen.

[Edited on 1-7-2009 by k-rico]

The Sculpin - 1-7-2009 at 03:53 PM

Ahhh yes......despite your being an "evil" and "mean" republican, I do agree with you. However, leadership is not merely the ability to reduce complex problems into their more simple parts. True leadership also involves the ability to communicate to others the significance of those simple parts. In my simple view, physical borders are an anachronism. They are meant to both keep in and keep out. This desire is no longer congruent with todays economic thinking. Intangible property is one of the biggest drivers of the world economy - it knows no borders. As long as there are borders, the rights to it can not be enforced. Intangible property is developed by labor, and as long as labor is contained within borders, those who profit from its use, yet do not develop it will never be incentivised to protect it. In some respect, the same holds true for labor associated with the development of tangible property. To me, it is only a matter of time before physical borders are erradicated since they already do not exist for several drivers of the world economy. You can't get simpler than that!

[Edited on 1-7-2009 by The Sculpin]

David K - 1-7-2009 at 04:40 PM

Leaving things as they were... it was getting worse by the year.

We pay taxes for protection... if our neighbors can't respect our property, we build fences or walls.

What solution did the U.S. government miss here Oliver? Is there a better way to keep out thugs? How can a border let the 'minimal law' breakers through, but keep out the drugs and terrorists? Please some solutions here instead of the name calling and finger pointing.

If in doubt, keep them OUT !

MrBillM - 1-7-2009 at 04:43 PM

BTW, has anyone seen the Beautiful job they're doing in Smuggler's Gulch ? It LOOKS GREAT !

Too bad that GWB let the Enviroistas dick around with the project so long before waiving their right to do so. It would have been finished long ago instead of May 2009.

Barry A. - 1-7-2009 at 04:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by The Sculpin
Ahhh yes......despite your being an "evil" and "mean" republican, I do agree with you. However, leadership is not merely the ability to reduce complex problems into their more simple parts. True leadership also involves the ability to communicate to others the significance of those simple parts. In my simple view, physical borders are an anachronism. They are meant to both keep in and keep out. This desire is no longer congruent with todays economic thinking. Intangible property is one of the biggest drivers of the world economy - it knows no borders. As long as there are borders, the rights to it can not be enforced. Intangible property is developed by labor, and as long as labor is contained within borders, those who profit from its use, yet do not develop it will never be incentivised to protect it. In some respect, the same holds true for labor associated with the development of tangible property. To me, it is only a matter of time before physical borders are erradicated since they already do not exist for several drivers of the world economy. You can't get simpler than that!

[Edited on 1-7-2009 by The Sculpin]


Apples and oranges, it seems to me, and a rather complex concept you put forth, despite your claim that it is "simple".

Borders have little to do with the economy, and investments. Slightly over 50% of my investments are overseas, and the "borders" in no way hamper that, that I am aware of, and that is good. That is an "apple".

However, we are not, nor will we ever be in our lifetime, a homogenous world society, no matter how much some wish it so. Borders maintain some sort of "order", and proper separation between significantly different cultures, societal "systems", and most importantly LEGAL SYSTEMS, without which would be complete confusion and chaos, in my opinion. Even state borders within the USA accomplish similar functions, tho much less obvious. This concept is an "orange", in this example.

I am not sure what you are referring to when you say, "borders are to keep in, and keep out". Last time I checked, there were no restrictions that I am aware of, keeping me "in". You are right in that there are definite downsides to borders, but to me the up-side is so much more important that I cannot agree that borders should be abolished, or even weakened------quite the contrary, I LIKE borders, including state borders, and even county borders, etc.. It is called compartmentalizing (is that a word?), making things more simple to manage.

I guess we should just agree to disagree, on this "borders" point.

Barry

DENNIS - 1-7-2009 at 05:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
I know that you think the Mexicans should have paid for it all but if you own property in Mexico and pay property taxes I bet you brag about how cheap it is to live in Mexico right after you b-tch about the lack of infrastructure.



Nope. You're wrong. I accept things just as they are. I change my life when necessary but, the infrastructure is what it is.
Cheap to live in Mexico? It just might be if I lived in my car. Where is it cheap to live in Mexico? Those days are long gone.

Welcome to Barranquilla, Colombia!

Ken Cooke - 1-7-2009 at 05:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Where is it cheap to live in Mexico? Those days are long gone.


You can get an apartment for $30,000.00 USD and live like a king in the barrio!

Quick Geography Lesson


Living life "On the cheap"


Take a motorcycle taxi, or just peddle and burn calories! :light:


Barranquilla looks nicer than most parts of Baja, plus the beaches are warmer than the Pacific.

The Sculpin - 1-7-2009 at 06:26 PM

Aw DK - you ask" What solution did the U.S. government miss here". You must be kidding me! I would imagine that regardless of one's political persuasion, the list of solutions missed by the US Govt would be very long! The first one that comes to my mind is simple enforcement of the current laws. If we did that, we wouldn't need much in the way of walls. I'm sure our lists would soon diverge after that. Oh, and I 'aint pointin' no fingers, and I 'aint callin' out no names. I'm just taking your tongue in cheek comment and following up. Barry figured it out....

'Nuff said - I'm going to enjoy Ken's excellent pictures and think about his real estate advice, but I'm still leaning more towards french polynesia.
Que sera, sera!

David K - 1-7-2009 at 06:36 PM

Ah yes... Tahiti! I am all for that!

Cheers!

Woooosh - 1-7-2009 at 10:23 PM

story updated...

http://www.sandiego6.com/news/local/story/Popular-Park-to-Ma...

rayfornario - 1-8-2009 at 08:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
BTW, has anyone seen the Beautiful job they're doing in Smuggler's Gulch ? It LOOKS GREAT !

Too bad that GWB let the Enviroistas dick around with the project so long before waiving their right to do so. It would have been finished long ago instead of May 2009.

rayfornario - 1-8-2009 at 08:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rayfornario
Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
BTW, has anyone seen the Beautiful job they're doing in Smuggler's Gulch ? It LOOKS GREAT !

Too bad that GWB let the Enviroistas dick around with the project so long before waiving their right to do so. It would have been finished long ago instead of May 2009.

I have seen the "beautiful" job they are doing in Smugglers. Their poorly engineered project by Keweit Contsruction caused massive flooding in the Tijuana River Valley in December and is causing considerable silting over of our beautiful estuary.
When finished, it should have all the eye appeal of the Berlin wall.
It will cost the taxpaqyers many millions to clean up this mess when they are done!:mad:

Mexicali_Kid - 1-8-2009 at 05:24 PM

Build a bigger fence.