BajaNomad - The Border's Massive Litter Problem

The Border's Massive Litter Problem

Bajaboy - 1-27-2009 at 08:29 AM

The Border's Massive Litter Problem
By ROB DAVIS
http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/articles/2009/01/27/environme...

Monday, Jan. 26, 2009 | A mile north of the border fence, Mexico's garbage stands five feet high in places, a pointillistic rainbow made of plastics. Royal blue oil containers. Green soda two-liters. Lavender fabric softener bottles.

There, in the Tijuana River basin, a wide channel that serves as the main drainage basin for Tijuana's storm water runoff, a stack of garbage stretches almost a quarter-mile long. The plastic bottles have washed across the border and gotten stuck in plain sight.

Deeper in the Tijuana River Valley Regional Park, on land owned by the county of San Diego, the litter dams up creeks, hangs from trees and lurks beneath muddy paths. Tires, two-by-fours and Styrofoam punctuate the mess.

The region's attention has long focused on the environmental health problems caused by the millions of gallons of raw sewage and sediment that winter rainfalls wash across the border into the United States, southern San Diego and the Pacific Ocean. The litter that comes with it has received less attention -- something that activists and government officials alike hope to change.

On a recent afternoon, standing atop a tangle of garbage in the county park, Ben McCue lamented the never-ending cycle that drives the litter to accumulate here. McCue, the coastal conservation program manager at Wildcoast, the Imperial Beach-based environmental group, had joined 200 other volunteers at a June cleanup here to rip out old tires and whack back overgrown weeds. City Council President Ben Hueso, county Supervisor Greg Cox and Assemblywoman Mary Salas joined in and celebrated the volunteers' efforts.

They filled an oversized dumpster with waste. They returned in October and filled another. They plucked 220 tires from the muck during the two cleanups.

When they were finished, the trail they'd cleaned was passable.

Then, in November, rain fell.

Litter dumped in Tijuana's streets got flushed. Months of plastic bottles and other debris wound up in the county's 1,698-acre park. Today, the trail smells rotten -- McCue has spotted dog carcasses -- and fetid sewage-tainted runoff stagnates in white plastic buckets. Spiders crawl through the bramble.

Trash overwhelms this area each year. And each year, county parks employees wait for it to dry out and then clean it up. But the county can't address the problem in Mexico, at its source.

The problem falls into the intractable policy gap that often defines the border environment. Local governments in the United States lack the authority to negotiate or invest in solutions in Mexico. While the county's neighbor is essentially dumping trash on its land, the county doesn't go to talk to its neighbor about the problem. The federal government is responsible for cross-border negotiations.

"We address the fact after the incident," said Renee Bahl, the county's parks and recreation director. Addressing the trash in Mexico "would be a decision outside this department."

The trash spreads throughout the area. West of the county's land, volunteers removed 4,000 tires in 2005 from the Tijuana Estuary, a 2,500-acre salt marsh adjacent to the Pacific Ocean, said Clay Phillips, the wetland's manager. Another two tons of garbage were cleaned out in 2007. But volunteer cleanups in the estuary are infrequent. Organizers don't want volunteers tromping around in water often contaminated by sewage.

John Robertus, executive officer of the San Diego Regional Water Quality Control Board, the local water pollution regulator, organized a coalition of local and state officials that hopes to halt the cycle. Calling themselves the Tijuana River Valley Recovery Team, the group has divided into four teams, each with a goal:

# Developing a way to intercept trash and sediment at the border. The California Integrated Waste Management Board last week awarded $250,000 to install a trash boom -- a floating barrier -- to stop litter in Goat Canyon, a cross-border canyon that drains into Border Field State Park. But other cross-border canyons still need improvements. The main river channel is among the most problematic.

# Determining out how much trash and sediment has accumulated throughout the area and then cleaning it up. Phillips dubbed one area "The Plug." Years of trash have collected and been fixed in place by mud. "I think we'd be amazed at how much trash has accumulated in the river valley," Phillips said. "Nobody knows how much is there."

# Creating a plan for restoring the Tijuana River to a normal, functioning ecosystem. Arundo and other invasive weeds are prolific; sediment that washed across the border from Tijuana's denuded hillsides inundates the area, eliminating rich wetlands habitat home to several threatened and endangered bird species.

# Reducing pollution in Mexico. "We can't deal with it without solving it in Mexico," Robertus said. Pollution could be reduced in Tijuana by expanding municipal trash service, he said, and cleaning up litter from storm drainage channels before rainstorms.

"The trash and debris that enters the storm drain system" -- primarily the wide concrete channel that cuts through Tijuana near the San Ysidro border crossing -- "it's just a real good way to get rid of it," Robertus said. "Nobody cares because they know it's going away and going over the border. It takes it away very efficiently."

While Robertus wants to see an investment made in Mexico, he lacks the authority to negotiate with Mexico or spend state money there. He is turning to Oscar Romo, the coastal training program coordinator at the nearby Tijuana Estuary. Romo has brought two top Tijuana city officials to see the problem up close.

Romo said U.S. officials need to first recognize that their counterparts in Tijuana are willing to work to solve the problem. The answer is simple, Romo said. Bottles tossed into the streets wind up in narrow runoff channels that cut throughout Tijuana's neighborhoods. Installing and maintaining trash booms in the channels that feed the city's main river basin would keep trash out, Romo said.

"It's not a lost cause," Romo said. "We know exactly where the trash is coming from. It's a matter of catching the trash before it reaches the river. Technically it's really easy. Funding is lacking."

Please contact Rob Davis directly at rob.davis@voiceofsandiego.org with your thoughts, ideas, personal stories or tips. Or set the tone of the debate with a letter to the editor.

CaboRon - 1-27-2009 at 08:35 AM

Mexico is such a good neighbor :lol:

Change has to start with the children ....

I see them open their candy and drop the trash even if they are literally within feet of a trash can.

When they become adults they have no pride in their surroundings.

It takes so little effort to not be a litterbug.

CaboRon

Pescador - 1-27-2009 at 09:14 AM

In our little village, we have a Canadian visitor who comes every year and she seems to be especially offended by the trash and litter. She organizes a little group of youngsters and herself and they pick up trash for a whole week and her husband manages to haul everything to the dump that gets picked up. I often wondered, after several years, if there was any real change in behavior but in talking to some of the local people, what I heard was, "Don't worry about that trash, it is almost November, and Mrs. ........ will be here and it will soon go away."

mulegemichael - 1-27-2009 at 09:20 AM

EVERYONE has to contribute to NO BASURA...some people just don't get it and will always have an excuse for tossing it so it's gonna be a long row to hoe

BMG - 1-27-2009 at 09:35 AM

Drove out of La Paz towards El Centenario yesterday. There were large black plastic bags filled with trash lining both sides of the highway for miles. There were 100's of them. A trash truck was going along the side of the road collecting them.

vandenberg - 1-27-2009 at 09:46 AM

Took years and years of education before any improvement was made in both western Europe and the USA & Canada.

If they keep up instilling the clean concept into the youngsters an improvement is inevitable. Takes time.

LB - 1-27-2009 at 09:47 AM

I agree with education, local schools kids are being taught here and we have
a clean up group every Monday. I get amazed....Like the time a man was
giving a quote on a door, saw a candy on the table and asked if he could
have it.....yes of course. But what did I find on the stairs on the way down.
THE CANDY WRAPPER! No more candy for him.

Salsa - 1-27-2009 at 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
Mexico is such a good neighbor :lol:

Perfect response.

Perfect response for us too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When the adults don't obey the laws, the kids don;t obey the laws.

Don

Woooosh - 1-27-2009 at 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
Mexico is such a good neighbor :lol:

We put out trash cans and people throw their bottles and trash on the beach anyway. The worst offenders are the drunk teens and young adults.

Only ONCE in five years have we seen a family pick up trash from the whole area and teach their children respect for the beach (we went over and thanked them all).

I see school soccer coaches push empty beer bottles in the sand for practice drills- then watch the boys smash the bottles in the sand after practice.

I've seen people throw their dead dogs on the beach in front of my house (is a trash bag)- with their children still in the car. On the same topic- I've been yelled at for throwing my plastic bags of dog crap in the trash cans! Seem the trash scavengers don't like to get it on their hands while digging for treasure.

Car batteries and car tires are everywhere on the beach- as are all the other parts of car. Ii winter storms Rosarito Beach is Rosa-retread Beach. One day I counted fifty tires from my wndow.

I've seen everything you can imagine from used diapers, sanitary napkins, used codoms, dead rats and dead cats bubble up from the open street manhole covers during rain storms- and flow directly onto the beach to pool up. Then their children come to play in that toxic mess like it's a "Lake Rosarito".

Iv'e seen grown ladies and men squat next to their cars to defacte and just leave it there.

This area (Roasrtio Beach) has no idea of environmental anything- and it all flows north to Imperial Beach in a day or two. It' just gross.

[Edited on 1-27-2009 by Woooosh]

CaboRon - 1-27-2009 at 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
Mexico is such a good neighbor :lol:

Mexico is striving to be a fourth world country :lol:

And Rosarito beach should be sanitized ....

Are we going to have to send in the marines to clean this mess up ....

That toxic sludge is just the same as an attack on the US ...

Mexico is not a friend of the USA ...

CaboRon

mulegemichael - 1-27-2009 at 11:04 AM

woosh and cabo ron....if it's so bad down here why are you living here?

CaboRon - 1-27-2009 at 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mulegemichael
woosh and cabo ron....if it's so bad down here why are you living here?

As if it is any of your business where I live ......

I am leaving this dirt hole on May first ....

And you can stay with the cavemen of La Baja :lol:

:lol

And make rationalizations every day about how it is OK because this is Mexico ... Keep lying to yourself.

And you don't mind getting nicked for a few bucks by every sleezeball you meet :fire:

And you think it is OK to be ripped off because it is they are poor people and it is their custom ....

Well, B. S. to that .

CaboRon

vandenberg - 1-27-2009 at 12:42 PM

Boy, oh, boy

We'll miss you. :biggrin:

BTW, any chance of speeding it up :?:

[Edited on 1-27-2009 by vandenberg]

CaboRon - 1-27-2009 at 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
Boy, oh, boy

We'll miss you. :biggrin:

BTW, any chance of speeding it up :?:

[Edited on 1-27-2009 by vandenberg]

Certainly, you can make donations to my PayPal account.

And believe me when I say, there will be no love lost with your ilk ...

CaboRon

The Gull - 1-27-2009 at 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
Boy, oh, boy

We'll miss you. :biggrin:

BTW, any chance of speeding it up :?:

[Edited on 1-27-2009 by vandenberg]

Certainly, you can make donations to my PayPal account.

And believe me when I say, there will be no love lost with your ilk ...

CaboRon

Give me your e-mail address so I can send you 25 cents (two bits), but only if you quit posting today. You can leave Baja at anytime, since the 2nd annual Animal Fundraiser is over.

Now, Wooooooosh, what would it take for you to do the same two things?

mtgoat666 - 1-27-2009 at 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
Mexico is such a good neighbor :lol:

In the past I avoided Rosarito because I thought the town was crowded, dirty and tacky. Now I have a new reason to avoid all urban north baja beaches, wooshie's description of pollution turned my stomach.
Conservatives whine about environmental whackos making things complicated in USA, but I sure do like how environmental whackos made USA clean up it's act in the 1970s and now we got pretty clean rivers and beaches.

Give a hoot, don't pullute!

Yes we can!

Peace out!

Dave - 1-27-2009 at 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
This area (Roasrtio Beach) has no idea of environmental anything- and it all flows north to Imperial Beach in a day or two. It' just gross.

If that were the case I wouldn't care. It doesn't all flow north.

Then you should give it another try

Dave - 1-27-2009 at 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
In the past I avoided Rosarito because I thought the town was crowded, dirty and tacky.

Rosarito is no longer crowded.

The Gull - 1-27-2009 at 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
wooshie's description of pollution turned my stomach.

Liar, goats can and do eat everything.

Woooosh - 1-27-2009 at 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mulegemichael
woosh and cabo ron....if it's so bad down here why are you living here?

That's always the first argument the stupid use. "Go back to mexico", "go back to canada" ," go back to the usa" .

Like Obama says- dumb people make dumb statements because they are "mentally bankrupt" and don't have any workable solutions- so they resort to name calling.

Blinders dont remove trash- people remove trash. I removed every piece of trash I noted in my post BY MYSELF- (except for the crap) while the mexican neighbors laughed. They watched- but didn't help. I din't bury the dog- but it at least made it into a trashcan. What a country- and this is the TOURIST ZONE.

[Edited on 1-27-2009 by Woooosh]

[Edited on 1-27-2009 by Woooosh]

The Gull - 1-27-2009 at 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by mulegemichael
woosh and cabo ron....if it's so bad down here why are you living here?

that's always the first argument the stupid use.

Good deflection. Throw back an insult.

The weather report for the next week appears to be warming and dry. Last week's runoff in your neighborhood will enjoy the trend. Seems like a good place for you, please stay.

Taco de Baja - 1-27-2009 at 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
Iv'e seen grown ladies and men squat next to their cars to defacte and just leave it there.

I "found" one of those leavings stepping out of the truck in the dark (in my sandals) at Cabras back in 1995... :barf:

Woooosh - 1-27-2009 at 01:43 PM

I did pull two puppies out of a sewer drain this week. The mother dog was crying and the very young pups were nearly dead from the cold and being stuck in the waste. One couldn't even stand. We hosed off the puppies and used plastic bags over our hands to carry them back to the owners house. The nicely dresssed lady didn't care- and didn't even say thank-you-- all she said is " I'm still missing one". The mother dog and puppies were all outside in the dirt (nevera allowed shelter or warmth)- I moved the wet ones we saved into the sun and left disgusted with that mexicans lakl of care and compassion for her OWN animals.

In another few hours they would have been dead. I'd hate to be her family.

[Edited on 1-27-2009 by Woooosh]

Woooosh - 1-27-2009 at 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by mulegemichael
woosh and cabo ron....if it's so bad down here why are you living here?

that's always the first argument the stupid use.

we love watching the children play in the "chocolate water". We tell the parents it's bad for them- but they just shrug. I have a front row seat of an about-to-fail country and their environmentally-stupid people. Why would I leave that?

At least no police heads on the beach this year... yet. I wonder where they dump the "Stew"

[Edited on 1-27-2009 by Woooosh]

Woooosh - 1-27-2009 at 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
This area (Roasrtio Beach) has no idea of environmental anything- and it all flows north to Imperial Beach in a day or two. It' just gross.

If that were the case I wouldn't care. It doesn't all flow north.

yes, it does. The current runs that direction or Imperial Beach wouldn't be the dirtiest beachwater in the state.

Woooosh - 1-27-2009 at 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by mulegemichael
woosh and cabo ron....if it's so bad down here why are you living here?

that's always the first argument the stupid use.

You can't handle the truth? I don't why people got their panties bunched up. It was just an accurate observation. Gross- but totally accurate. Why is everyone so defensive? It is what it is...

CaboRon - 1-27-2009 at 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by mulegemichael
woosh and cabo ron....if it's so bad down here why are you living here?

that's always the first argument the stupid use.

Woooosh - 1-27-2009 at 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by mulegemichael
woosh and cabo ron....if it's so bad down here why are you living here?

that's always the first argument the stupid use.

The recent high tides cleand the beach, thank you. Happens every january. The true reason we built our pool was so our dogs could swim and sanitize after every beach walk. EVERY. We don't mind clean dogs and clean water in the house (it's all slate flooring inside and out anyway). We really do call the pool- the "dog dip" and keep it heavily chlorinated.

CaboRon - 1-27-2009 at 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
I did pull two puppies out of a sewer drain this week. The mother dog was crying and the very young pups were nearly dead from the cold and being stuck in the waste. One couldn't even stand. We hosed off the puppies and used plastic bags over our hands to carry them back to the owners house. The nicely dresssed lady didn't care- and didn't even say thank-you-- all she said is " I'm still missing one". The mother dog and puppies were all outside in the dirt (nevera allowed shelter or warmth)- I moved the wet ones we saved into the sun and left disgusted with that mexicans lakl of care and compassion for her OWN animals.

In another few hours they would have been dead. I'd hate to be her family.

[Edited on 1-27-2009 by Woooosh]

But, Woosh, we can't mess with Mexican customs ... :lol:

They only keep the dogs around so they can listen to their incessent barking :lol:

CaboRon

Well alrighty then...

Dave - 1-27-2009 at 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
This area (Roasrtio Beach) has no idea of environmental anything- and it all flows north to Imperial Beach in a day or two. It' just gross.

If that were the case I wouldn't care. It doesn't all flow north.

yes, it does. The current runs that direction or Imperial Beach wouldn't be the dirtiest beachwater in the state.

I truly don't care. What a relief. :rolleyes:

You need to let go of the anger. You really can't do anthing about anything down here. Go with the flow...so to speak. :rolleyes:

Sharksbaja - 1-27-2009 at 02:30 PM

I have always wondered how Mexican parents can let their kids swim in runoff from storms. After a good rain it's common to see children as well as adults swimming or playing in swollen arroyos that lead thru town.

Unbelievable to think they are either that uneducated or caring. Are those people actually immune to cholera, dysentery etc. etc. etc.?

It's amazing they don't have huge fatal epidemics.

cabobaja - 1-27-2009 at 02:48 PM

Gee, here we go. See what you started Zac. I'm a Mexican. 4 yr degree. Didn't
know I was filthy and a uneducated peasant. I will have to change my resume.

Barry A. - 1-27-2009 at 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja
I have always wondered how Mexican parents can let their kids swim in runoff from storms. After a good rain it's common to see children as well as adults swimming or playing in swollen arroyos that lead thru town.

Unbelievable to think they are either that uneducated or caring. Are those people actually immune to cholera, dysentery etc. etc. etc.?

It's amazing they don't have huge fatal epidemics.

From what I understand, people's immune systems adjust somewhat to their accustomed environments, protecting them---------I make a conscience effort to NOT protect myself from the elements of my environment, for this very reason------I want my immune system to stay strong, and constant exposure to mild toxins helps to keep it that way, so I am led to believe. I am seldom sick, and I think part of that is my active exposure to things that mildly might harm me.

Just a thought.

Barry

Bajahowodd - 1-27-2009 at 03:08 PM

How about a grand bargain? We provide for a useful, year round flow of Colorado River water to cross the border, and Mexico institutes a program prevent the debris in the Tijuana River from flowing North.

DianaT - 1-27-2009 at 03:12 PM

Quote:

We live in Imperial Beach and we won't let out dogs swim here any more---too many ear infections. They only get to swim in Bahia Asuncion.

But some surfers and some families are crazy---even when the contaminated signs are up, they are out in the water. So, it is not just south of the border where people choose to swim and surf in rotten dangerous water.

The lifeguards hate it---they don't want to have to go out and save any one. We have seen them driving back and forth asking people to stay out of the water and announcing the dangers, but especially if the surf is up, there is no stopping them.

BTW, not to defend Imperial Beach, but they are not always on the top of the most polluted Southern California Beaches

And it is strange, when our beaches are reported as contaminated, the beaches in Coronado always report, no data available. :lol:

Diane

On edit---If you really want to see EXTREME pollution, go check out the New River in Calexico.

[Edited on 1-27-2009 by jdtrotter]

DENNIS - 1-27-2009 at 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter
On edit---If you really want to see EXTREME pollution, go check out the New River in Calexico.

You know why that airliner didn't sink in the Hudson River? It couldn't. The water is so dirty they couldn't see the engine still on the wing. Thought it had sank with the other.

Barry A. - 1-27-2009 at 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
How about a grand bargain? We provide for a useful, year round flow of Colorado River water to cross the border, and Mexico institutes a program prevent the debris in the Tijuana River from flowing North.

As stated by Diane Trotter, the NEW RIVER coming from Mexicali into the Imperial Valley is a HUGE problem, and has been for 50+ years. Yes, the USA should be providing more Colorado River water to the HUGE agricultural areas south of Mexicali as is provided for in treaties (but we won't), and Yes the Mexican Govt. should be controlling their pollution, both in the Mexicali area and the TJ area (but they won't).

It is a classic "stand off", as it has been for many years------frustrating, but "it is what it is".

Barry

Sharksbaja - 1-27-2009 at 03:41 PM

Of course Barry that can be a factor......unless you contact some super nasty bug. Then all you acquired immune reponses will mean nada.

Please explain how you DO NOT protect yourself. You mean like not dressing for the weather? Standing face to face with sick or sneezing people? You hike in the nude?

lo:

DianaT - 1-27-2009 at 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
the NEW RIVER coming from Mexicali into the Imperial Valley is a HUGE problem, and has been for 50+ years.

Barry

When we were in Calexico, I had a dvd from the New River Committee that I used in the classroom and one of their proposals at the time was to build over it like they did in Mexicali----now that would fix the problem. :rolleyes:

So people continue to surf and swim in Imperial Beach when the contaminated signs are up, and people golf by the New River, and the high school cross-country team practices along side of the river---crazy, just crazy, IMHO

BTW, the solid trash talked about in the article Zac posted is not in Imperial Beach---it is south of Imperial Beach---doesn't make it any better, but after that horrible misrepresentation of our town on that new so called reality show about millionaires giving away money, people around here like to set the record straight. :biggrin:

[Edited on 1-27-2009 by jdtrotter]

Bajahowodd - 1-27-2009 at 04:09 PM

So, you're saying the only thing wrong with Mexico is Mexicans. Nice. Maybe stay home. Travel to Cambodia or somewhere else. People with your kind of attitude don't deserve to be able to gain access to Mexico. You embarass me, as an American.

I'm guessing that your only real contact with Mexicans has been the rural peasant types. Actually, Mexico has a huge population of highly educated and cultured people. Great universities, museums, medical facilities. You're just not going to encounter those things camping on a secluded beach in the middle of Baja.

And for the record, the United States is home to quite a number of ill-mannered, ill-educated, backward people as well.

mulegemichael - 1-27-2009 at 04:21 PM

i second that!!!...geez!...this is crazy!.....and these folks are people who "love" baja?...

Can't speak for anyone else but...

Dave - 1-27-2009 at 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
So, you're saying the only thing wrong with Mexico is Mexicans.

I would never say that about Mexico. France, Canada, Texas and Arkansas maybe, but never Mexico.

Barry A. - 1-27-2009 at 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja
Of course Barry that can be a factor......unless you contact some super nasty bug. Then all you acquired immune reponses will mean nada.

Please explain how you DO NOT protect yourself. You mean like not dressing for the weather? Standing face to face with sick or sneezing people? You hike in the nude?

lo:

I pick up other peoples litter------

I don't always don gloves when working around trash and garbage-----

I don't wash my hands with anti-bacterial soap every time I touch things at the grocery store, etc. etc.-------(but I do wash in restrooms)------- :lol:

I think you know what I mean------some folks, I think, go way to far in avoiding "germs", to their detriment IMO long term. You have GOT to be exposed to SOME germs to build up your immunities, and keep them there.

Barry

tripledigitken - 1-27-2009 at 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd

I'm guessing that your only real contact with Mexicans has been the rural peasant types. Actually, Mexico has a huge population of highly educated and cultured people. Great universities, museums, medical facilities. You're just not going to encounter those things camping on a secluded beach in the middle of Baja.

And for the record, the United States is home to quite a number of ill-mannered, ill-educated, backward people as well.

Now that certainly clears up the matter. :lol:

Taco de Baja - 1-27-2009 at 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
And for the record, the United States is home to quite a number of ill-mannered, ill-educated, backward people as well.

I think they are called Ugly Americans....And many people in the world think we are ALL like that.....It's called a sterotype and, unfortunately, it cuts both ways.

Bajahowodd - 1-27-2009 at 05:59 PM

Hmmm. Methinks the administrator has made some surgical incisions here. OK by me.

For the record, whenever I travel abroad I act like a guest. If, for some reason, I did not enjot the experience, if i cannot resolve in my own mind why, I just do not return. Now that i think about it, I really can't think of anywhere I would want to revisit!

As for the ugly American thing, perhaps no other citizenry other than France travels with the sense of superiority that Americnas do. Never really understood it. It's not a contest about who is better. People and cultures are different. So if we can just keep McDonalds and Starbucks from subverting other cultures, we can all enjoy foreign travel. :lol:

Sure is nice to have

Bajajack - 1-27-2009 at 06:43 PM

a moderator who seems to think every negative comment should be slashed.

Of course when your making money off a site hiding the facts is apparently the way to go, never mind the truth.

CaboRon - 1-27-2009 at 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajajack
a moderator who seems to think every negative comment should be slashed.

Of course when your making money off a site hiding the facts is apparently the way to go, never mind the truth.

You are not the first one to notice ....

But you have to keep your mouth shut or you will be banned...

Some of the best contributers have been so treated.

CaboRon

The Gull - 1-27-2009 at 07:00 PM

Quote:

Which negative comments have been slashed, old wise one?

woody with a view - 1-27-2009 at 07:23 PM

my wife's first response after clearing the toll at playas heading north her first time (we went south in the early morning darkness) was, "WHAT THE PHUK IS WRONG WITH THIS CITY?" you know, when you look out your passenger window between the toll and the exit for SD down those canyons????

it has always looked like that for me, so i just accepted it when i was in 9th grade and moved on. She's from Peru and thought that the hideousness subsided the closer you got to the border, i.e. the promised land!

there's something to the generalization that goes.... when you have nothing to look forward to, and you have less to count on, much less enough safety, education, and perish the thought, enough food for your 9 kids to eat.......why would you care about dropping a scrap of paper or smashing a bottle on the rocks along side the road?

it's really obvious, no?

Woooosh - 1-27-2009 at 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull

Quote:

Which negative comments have been slashed, old wise one?

I've been edited- get over it. It changes everything.

I learned where the line. The line for me is when a topic goes from 'baja trash' to 'go home ugly americans'. The moderator edits on his own standards. From that edit onthough- nothing is the truth because whole parts are removed.

That's why I had once asked if we could change "OFF TOPIC" to "Baja Opinions"- so people could discuss things that weren't peace, love and fish tacos without getting edited here. Sort of like Craig's List rants and raves for TJ- but baja related (it is 18 and over).

Why not start a twin thread in OT on a hot topic so nomads can chime in at their comfort levels. JMHO

[Edited on 1-28-2009 by Woooosh]

woody with a view - 1-27-2009 at 07:37 PM

si' mon! only hot chicks in thongs!!!!!!

sorry, i can't resist!

no.jpg - 35kB

The Gull - 1-27-2009 at 07:39 PM

Woody, sorry, but I just had to report your posting. OMG what language!! :tumble:

Woooosh - 1-27-2009 at 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cabobaja
Gee, here we go. See what you started Zac. I'm a Mexican. 4 yr degree. Didn't
know I was filthy and a uneducated peasant. I will have to change my resume.

I was talking about the trash I see in the tourist region of Rosarito Beach in baja norte- which is the basic thread topic. The problem with Mexico beaches is that it has the USA as it's neighbor. You can't even smoke a cigarette on the beach in San Diego because the cigarette butts are too polluting. Look at the difference only 30 miles south. That's my point.

Mexico is a rich country in natural resources and has strong, hard-working people who keep their families close. The trash problem is one of culture, not of intent. eg., I can't get Mexico City to allow me permits to install a free beach toilet for the people (there is not one free public tolet in the tourist zone of Rosarito Beach)-so yes I do complain when someone squats in front of my house (every family has a shovel and a roll of TP when they come to the beach here). The people I see using the public city beaches were raised to take care of themselves and really don't give much thought about how it impacts anything. They don't even know it's a problem. It's not malicious or stupid- it's just the way they were raised and they don't give it a thought. They just worked 5 and half days for a two hundred bucks and all they want to do it is pile in the van and enjoy the beach for a few hours with their children. I get that.

Bajajack - 1-27-2009 at 08:07 PM

Well just that's another way of saying they don't give a crap.

woody with a view - 1-27-2009 at 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajajack
Well just that's another way of saying they don't give a crap.

'tis about time everyone gets it....... :light:

BajaNuts - 1-27-2009 at 10:23 PM

from personal experience, the hope will stand with the children. I have witnessed the scene as described by others, youngsters throwing trash away without a glance or second thought.

I've not lived in Mexico. Only visited.

While traveling the hiways and byways of Baja N & S, I was always (impressed/distressed/awed/flabbergasted) by the amount of trash. I saw my son throw something away improperly one time and he got his butt chewed royally! He doesn't do it any more.

I may be making a huge mistake here, and if so, I hope someone with proof will add it to the thread, but.........I am going to assume the majority of trash dumped in Mexico is left by Mexican nationals, not visitors.

I guess what I'd compare it to is a typical day at the beach NOB -vs- SOB. ( and DON"T start with South CA beach comparisons! I'm talking about a regular beach anywhere along the coast}

If you could "via sci-fi" spend a day at the beach with each culture, who do you think would take their trash home. or who do you think would empty out the trash barrel, use it as a wind break for their bbq, and then leave all the schtuff on the beach?

Who has the "Adopt-A-Highway" program?

The hope really does lie in the next generation. What's that about teaching old dogs new tricks.............

and jfyi, if there were clean up in an area if Baja I was staying in, I would participate if the children were involved............

Diver - 1-27-2009 at 10:51 PM

Trash removal along border receives state funding

By Janine Zúñiga 2:00 a.m. January 22, 2009
TIJUANA RIVER VALLEY — State waste officials have awarded $250,000 in grants to the California Department of Parks and Recreation for a trash-removal system along the U.S.-Mexico border.
The money from the California Integrated Waste Management Board will be used to install the trash-removal system, which state parks officials previously had designed and bought but had not used. The system will be installed in Goat Canyon tidal basins that trap sediment when it rains.
“The sediment basins are very effective in capturing sediment, but not the trash that can collect there and that washes away with the next big storm,” said Clay Phillips, superintendent for California State Parks and Tijuana Estuary manager.
Phillips said the trash-removal system uses booms, or floating barriers. One boom will control trash and debris floating in the basins. A heavier boom will drag the basin for larger objects, such as tires.
Phillips said he hopes to have the system installed and operating within a few months.
The system will not provide direct relief for ranchers and farmers who were flooded by storms in December, when flood-control channels and the Tijuana River overflowed. That area is in the lower Tijuana River Valley, about a mile east of the Goat Canyon basins.
However, if the new system works, it could be used in other valley locations

BajaNuts - 1-27-2009 at 11:13 PM

just one more note about "pride of ownership"-

we live in a very small rural community in a long valley with a river flowing through it that has many small beaches that allow many river-oriented activities. In the past, those of us who consider ourselves residents of our little town of 60 people, would self-police the litter on our little beach on the river. We visit the small beach 1-2 times a week in the summer and it was common for us to bring home a grocery bag of garbage from other people. We would specifically take a plastic grocery bag with us, and our cooler of beer, to pick up the trash. Our child was playing in the sand and I didn't want him to get cut on some nasty broken beer bottle!

Some local "MRS. .....??" {like in the other story} got all uppity writing letters to the local paper about the government not taking care of the pit toilet they had recently installed, and "SHE" was personally picking up all the garbage..................

It ticked off all of the rest of us who had been picking up the garbage all along. I know several people who don't take home the trash anymore. Their view is... "let Mrs. XXX" do it.

This is a reverse in the way it was, and I feel it was better before. Local people should take pride and concern for their neighborhoods!

In the springtime, I see tons of "big boy" beer cans of a certain beer type. There's not many people who live along our road, I'll find out who drinks "BRAND X"!

I just don't get the argument that "things are so tough for the locals, they can't even think about teaching their children not to litter". Is it that they can't afford trash service? I get that. But dumping out the trash barrel so you can use it as a wind break for your Sunday family bbq on the beach and then leaving all the trash blowing in the wind???????????????

I don't get that...............

fishbuck - 1-27-2009 at 11:53 PM

When I was a kid I was fishing with my granddad in Colorado, We stopped at a little store and he bought me ice cream. As we were walking across the parking lot I unwrapped the ice cream and threw the wrapper on the ground.
My grandfather was appaled and ask what the hell I thought I was doing. I explained that they paid people to pick up the trash so it was okay if I threw it on the ground.
I don't remember it being unpleasant in any way but I do remember that I picked up the wrapper and put it in the trash.

That was over 40 years ago and I still remember that lesson.

What if he had not said anything to me?

BajaGringo - 1-28-2009 at 12:50 AM

The lessons a child learns are taught while they are young and re enforced by their own parents behavior. Nothing more - nothing less...

Sharksbaja - 1-28-2009 at 01:03 AM

Quote:

for the ugly American thing, perhaps no other citizenry other than France travels with the sense of superiority that Americnas do. Never really understood it

Now thats' an understatement I can testify about! :mad:

DENNIS - 1-28-2009 at 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull

Which negative comments have been slashed, old wise one?

Reminds me of a shrink I used to see when he'd ask me about memory loss..."How much do you forget?"
We should have exchanged seats.

CaboRon - 1-28-2009 at 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajajack
Well just that's another way of saying they don't give a crap.

That's the bottom line.

Barry A. - 1-28-2009 at 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja

Quote:

for the ugly American thing, perhaps no other citizenry other than France travels with the sense of superiority that Americnas do. Never really understood it

Now thats' an understatement I can testify about! :mad:

As a long time Park Ranger, I can assure you that every Country on earth has it's share of, shall we say, OBNOXIOUS people traveling the world and insulting others. Actually, in the Parks, it was seldom the Norte Americans that gave us the most problems---------we found that the visitors from so-called newly successful Countries were the worst-----they were feeling their oats and really were into themselves with their new found wealth-----seemed to make them more insensitive to those around them. (which I suppose is understandable). The other "problem" folks were the very rich and powerful--------they thought they owned the place. :lol:

Bajahowodd - 1-28-2009 at 05:41 PM

Not to mention that it is impossible to sell real estate during a depression.

Oh yeah?

Dave - 1-28-2009 at 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lillian
In the last year or so, many of the brightest and most interesting folks have been banned here for no other reason than telling it like it is.

Here's the list:

http://forums.bajanomad.com/misc.php?action=list&desc=as...

Please point to the 'best and brightest'.

So many to choose from. :rolleyes:

Barry A. - 1-28-2009 at 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Not to mention that it is impossible to sell real estate during a depression.

Not sure how this fits in, but two houses in foreclosure in my neighborhood just sold------the value compared to the asking price was just too much to pass up. Of course this is only a recession, not a depression (???). These were not "spec" buyers, either----families actually moved in.

Barry

Bajahowodd - 1-28-2009 at 11:22 PM

It only took two years, and I'm being generous, before anyone acknowledged a recession. Fact is that with thousands of jobs being cut monthly, who knows where this is going to go. There's a stigma attached to the word depression, but by all measurements, even if you don't want to use the word, we're in for a long, hard ride.

Nice to know two families had the resources, and apparently, the jobs to get the financing. Just saying that you need to hold on to your hat.

BajaGringo - 1-29-2009 at 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by lillian
In the last year or so, many of the brightest and most interesting folks have been banned here for no other reason than telling it like it is.

Here's the list:

http://forums.bajanomad.com/misc.php?action=list&desc=as...

Please point to the 'best and brightest'.

So many to choose from. :rolleyes:

Dave - I looked at the list and had honestly forgotten about most of them. Thanks for the reminder and good laugh...

:lol:

Taco de Baja - 1-29-2009 at 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by lillian
In the last year or so, many of the brightest and most interesting folks have been banned here for no other reason than telling it like it is.

Here's the list:

http://forums.bajanomad.com/misc.php?action=list&desc=as...

Please point to the 'best and brightest'.

So many to choose from. :rolleyes:

I wonder why there was a Massive spike in bannings in 2008?..... :?:

Heck, in 2005 there were NONE.

I even see there is a "BajaTacoMan" just banned in 2009. Based on his name, he can't be too bad...

CaboRon - 1-29-2009 at 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taco de Baja

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by lillian
In the last year or so, many of the brightest and most interesting folks have been banned here for no other reason than telling it like it is.

Here's the list:

http://forums.bajanomad.com/misc.php?action=list&desc=as...

Please point to the 'best and brightest'.

So many to choose from. :rolleyes:

I wonder why there was a Massive spike in bannings in 2008?..... :?:

Heck, in 2005 there were NONE.

I even see there is a "BajaTacoMan" just banned in 2009. Based on his name, he can't be too bad...

Also, many have left who were not banned ...

CaboRon

longlegsinlapaz - 1-29-2009 at 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Here's the list:

http://forums.bajanomad.com/misc.php?action=list&desc=as...

Please point to the 'best and brightest'.

So many to choose from. :rolleyes:

But lest you forget, AT LEAST 28 of 2008 bannees on that list are the same person; Fulano, et al!! :lol:

I don't mourn the loss of anyone on the banned list, but I do miss the wisdom, knowledge & wit of many who've gotten disgusted & stopped posting!

BajaGringo - 1-29-2009 at 11:29 AM

I noticed a couple posts this morning looking a lot like someone on the list who just keeps coming back under a new name. Sounds like obsessive-compulsive behavior to me.

Maybe a higher dose of lithium might help them...

:lol:

Or maybe they just have multiple personalities????

:biggrin:

[Edited on 1-29-2009 by BajaGringo]

DianaT - 1-29-2009 at 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz

I don't mourn the loss of anyone on the banned list, but I do miss the wisdom, knowledge & wit of many who've gotten disgusted & stopped posting!

I sure miss HoseA and Roberto---both are a real loss and both are really nice people----but no one can convince them to come back.

EnseNADAslim - 1-29-2009 at 06:29 PM

On the trash issue,
I was taking a bunch of kids to school one day, all 30 of them packed in my van, and one boy noticed the small bag in the van that was for trash. He just stared at it and then said "Brother, do you want me to throw that bag of trash out the window?" and I said "NO, I fill this up with trash and then throw it away when I get home". He then kind of looked at me as if I was an idiot and said "But if you throw it out the window you won't see it anymore and there will be no trash in your car". It took some doing and lots of cleaning, but soon enough those little ankle biters stopped throwing trash, apple cores, orange peels out the window and started to fill up my bag,,,of course still thinking that I was an idiot for carrying trash around. I think there is some kind of mentality that tells the locals that as long as you don't have it in front of you it's not your responsibility, so if you toss your trash out the window it's not your problem any more, and the trash that you do see is not your problem as well because you are not the one that threw it out the window.
Like with many other things, there is just a very few select that care, there are few that really have some genuine pride. There are too many that feel that as long as the trash is not in their hands it's not there problem----kind of like that story of the King that had no cloths. There is a very strong "false pride in country", well that is except for Monday when the kids march the flag around.
Another funny thing I heard a year ago was that the city of San Diego was going to do this big environmental study to find out what is causing the sudden increase of road side trash---I just about fell out of my car and felt like asking them to pay me and I've give the answer right away,,,,,first I'd point South, and then I'd point at the many legal and illegals from Mexico that live in San Diego, then say,,,there ya go end of story, end of study,,,now pay up.
Yea, I hate the trash to, and I'm taking pictures of trash that we find in the most beautiful and remote areas, and someday I'll edit them and post them as a slide show to maybe give some awareness to the problem.----eshhhh
who am I kidding :rolleyes:

woody with a view - 1-29-2009 at 06:37 PM

perceptive, Slim! :light:

EnseNADAslim

longlegsinlapaz - 1-29-2009 at 06:46 PM

I enjoyed your reading your post, keep up your efforts....it takes time , but I'm a firm believer that chipping away for change a tiny bit at a time CAN be the beginning of a groundswell!

Interesting fact, when I looked for litter bags here in La Paz, both NAPA & Quakerstate looked at me like I was crazy & also suggested I throw it out the window! Nomad Motoged was kind enough to bring me a really cool one from Canada...for which I'll be eternally grateful!! :bounce:

BajaNuts - 1-29-2009 at 07:14 PM

on a side note regarding the banned posters and the allegation that some re-sign up under new aliases,

can the administrator ping the person who is going to be banned for their IP address and block that IP address? It' won't stop someone who uses public computers, but I would suspect that would be the extreme minority. Most members use the same computer.

And regarding the litter, I also enjoyed reading 'slim's perspective.

This seems to reflect the same attitude I heard in December about people in Kenya. Very briefly, we were talking with some members of another church who had been doing mission trips to Kenya for several years. One of the projects they had been working on was teaching the local men how to find water and dig wells. The mission members would help them and supply them with materials needed for the well.

As a few years went by, they revisited some of the previous wells to find them in disrepair. They figured out the issue is with cultural attitudes. It is the women's responsibility to fetch the water, so why would a man care if the well was in the village or if she had to walk 2 miles to the river? As long as the water was there when he wanted it, there's no motivation for the men of the village to dig a well!

As long as it doesn't affect the person directly, extra effort things like litter and well digging will not be done. The education of how litter affects the person directly is the only way to get that person to care whether there is broken glass or feces of all types on the beach where the little ones play.

People will still have the attitude of "well, I swam there and didn't get sick". I've fought a local "battle" against unlicensed food vendors selling at the local farmer's market and heard that exact sentiment. "I ate the tamale's and didn't get sick!" My response "well, you got lucky........because any hazardous meat/bean product that sits ar room temperature for 4+ hours is a sickness waiting to happen."

I know things can go to extremes, and I also think people need to let their bodies build up some immunities, but you have to have some common sense. Garbage, feces, dead carcasses........you may not be able to see it behind the bush or hill, but what are the chances it won't contaminate your water?

It is a long uphill educational battle.

woody with a view - 1-29-2009 at 07:19 PM

Quote:

It is a long uphill educational battle.

yes it is. just like my walks to school AND home when i was a wee lad. :light:

BajaNuts - 1-29-2009 at 07:26 PM

ah, yes........

walking to school.......uphill...........both ways...........in the snow..........barefoot..................

I think I told that one to my little one also :lol:

shell beach

bajacow - 1-30-2009 at 12:37 PM

Bajahowodd - 1-30-2009 at 01:21 PM

Seen that sight many times. Thought:
A. Need a larger can.
B. Cans need to be serviced more often.
C. Root of the problem is people who are scavenging for recyclables and just dump everything out of the can while doing so.

Also, it has seemed to me that the litter problem is much more pronounced in BC than BCS. Might also have to do with population differential.

Woooosh - 1-30-2009 at 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Seen that sight many times. Thought:
A. Need a larger can.
B. Cans need to be serviced more often.
C. Root of the problem is people who are scavenging for recyclables and just dump everything out of the can while doing so.

Also, it has seemed to me that the litter problem is much more pronounced in BC than BCS. Might also have to do with population differential.

The dogs do a good job spreading around trash too. Most people I see dumpster-diving for cans and bottles use a stick and don't spread stuff around. I can happily say that the "rangers" in Rosarito dump the cans daily- but most of the trash is elsewhere- not as bad as the above photo, but close.

I have seen the beach rangers on quads actually ask people not to bring beer bottles to the beach next time. I have seen them ask people to pick up after their dogs. I have seen them ask nicely for pepole to get their trucks off the beach. I talk to this one ranger a lot and praise him for taking an "eduacational " approach- rather than being a dick and just fining them the first time. He said basically "you can catch more bees with sugar than with vinegar". He's disgusted with what people do to the beach at night- because he cleans it in the morning. We alway clean our section of bach and he truly apprecaites the help.

We also tend to forget that many people who try to pass through TJ North are from countries further south, they are not Mexicans. They bunch up in the canyons and shanty towns waiting to cross. They are the ones who massively litter and disrespect the land.

Lastly- If you throw trash out the car window in San Diego someoene will inevitably wind down their window and tell you off. If you litter walking on the beach or a boardwalk- someone will likely pick it up and hand it back to you. It's just not socially acceptble to litter and the people aren't shy about self-enforcing it.

[Edited on 1-30-2009 by Woooosh]