BajaNomad - PETROGLYPHS & PICTOGRAPHS you can drive to, or close (in Baja Norte)!

PETROGLYPHS & PICTOGRAPHS you can drive to, or close (in Baja Norte)!

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David K - 2-7-2009 at 02:38 PM

Baja California was as popular with American Indians several hundred years ago as it is now with us!

Thanks to abundant food supplies for some, they had some 'free time' to make artistic additions to the boulders of Baja!

There must be dozens we know of... and a few are so close to a vehicle approach, you don't have to leave your car... well almost!

Here is a sample of some sites...

MONTEVIDEO (off the San Borja road):

ARROYO SAN FERNANDO (a mile west of the mission):

LAS PINTAS:

CATAVIÑA (2 miles north, on top of boulder hill):

LAS TINAJITAS (San Borja region):

PETROGLYPH PARK (site we found 20 miles east of El Socorro):

LA VIBORA CANYON (8 miles from Guadalupe Canyon):

These photos are all found in my web site VivaBaja.com, most with directions. Las Tinajitas is best found using the guide service of Jose Gerardo and family of San Borja.

Viva Baja everyone!

[Edited on 2-7-2009 by David K]

rpleger - 2-7-2009 at 04:12 PM

Good fotos, very interesting....Thank you

2-tie-dye-4 - 2-8-2009 at 09:15 AM

I think I've seen some of this, but just from the car, and wondered if it was ancient, or grafiti.

David K - 2-8-2009 at 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 2-tie-dye-4
I think I've seen some of this, but just from the car, and wondered if it was ancient, or grafiti.

BOTH (ancient grafitti)!

What is funny (or sad) is that today's grafitti is tomorrow's rock art!

XRPhlang - 3-6-2009 at 02:59 PM

Here's El Burro. The beach just south of Santaspac, right? They are right next to the hwy. a very short walk at the south side of the cove.

[Edited on 3-6-2009 by XRPhlang]

Baja 10-08 024r.JPG - 45kB

XRPhlang - 3-6-2009 at 03:07 PM

I remember questioning why they would not have been affected by the building of the hwy, they're that close. Maybe a concerned road builder repositioned them there.

Baja 10-08 027r.JPG - 46kB

XRPhlang - 3-6-2009 at 03:09 PM

one more....

Baja 10-08 025r.JPG - 42kB

XRPhlang - 3-6-2009 at 03:10 PM

.....and another one

Baja 10-08 026r.JPG - 46kB

XRPhlang - 3-6-2009 at 04:58 PM

Did your host in Mulege give any indication whether, or not they thought these were in fact legitimate/old petraglyphs? The boulder field in which they were located really looked to me like they were rocks tumbled there to provide support for the roadbed. Looking close they were indeed convincing. I guess it's possible they could have survived the various road building campaigns over years.

Here's something a bit more convincing I found on a recent trip put on by Nomads this last Presidents Day weekend to El Cajon Canyon in the Sierra San Pedro de Martir. It's only a short walk up the canyon on the South side.

Baja 02-09 035r.JPG - 47kB

XRPhlang - 3-6-2009 at 05:02 PM

a little closer. Whether it's smoke damage, or desert varnish seen as a broad band across the rock, it does appear to be on top of the glyphs, making them older I would assume.

Baja 02-09 036r.JPG - 39kB

redhilltown - 3-7-2009 at 02:39 PM

yikes. exact directions? can't there just be general directions and let people discover them on their own? I guess I am of the Mary Austin kind who said in her book Land of Little Rain (which is available on line): "And I am in no mind to direct you to delectable places toward which you will hold yourself less tenderly than I". and maybe her and I are a bit grumpy, but are not some of these sites pretty delicate and sensitive?

Barry A. - 3-7-2009 at 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by redhilltown
yikes. exact directions? can't there just be general directions and let people discover them on their own? I guess I am of the Mary Austin kind who said in her book Land of Little Rain (which is available on line): "And I am in no mind to direct you to delectable places toward which you will hold yourself less tenderly than I". and maybe her and I are a bit grumpy, but are not some of these sites pretty delicate and sensitive?

Here we go again :spingrin:

Barry

XRPhlang - 3-7-2009 at 03:42 PM

Quote:

Yeah, you're probably right. But a good Chef always leaves out an ingredient, or two.

2012 Additions, just off the road near El Arco.

David K - 12-30-2012 at 11:05 PM

We can see the giant paintings.

larryC - 12-31-2012 at 06:15 PM

That Mesa de Carmen site is one of my favoites. The paintings there are as good as if not better than the ones up in Sierra San Francisco in my opinion. Too bad it is such a small area. Looking on google earth in that area there are uploaded photos of other sites that would be fun to find.
Larry

David K - 1-1-2013 at 08:17 AM

I am sure if one were to explore every rock face possible, it would amaze us all how many have been marked up by man over the years. These giant sites sure seem to indicate that food was plentiful for them to have so much leisure time and they were painted before the Cochimí, that lived there when the Spanish arrived on scene...?

J.P. - 1-1-2013 at 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
I am sure if one were to explore every rock face possible, it would amaze us all how many have been marked up by man over the years. These giant sites sure seem to indicate that food was plentiful for them to have so much leisure time and they were painted before the Cochimí, that lived there when the Spanish arrived on scene...?

Great pictures, But how can you say that they were American Indians. :?:

David K - 1-1-2013 at 09:07 AM

* Because they weren't Indians from India!

[Edited on 1-1-2013 by David K]

J.P. - 1-1-2013 at 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
* Because they weren't Indians from India!

[Edited on 1-1-2013 by David K]

Please answer the Question, how can you say they were AMERICAN Indians. :?:

bajaguy - 1-1-2013 at 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by J.P.

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
* Because they weren't Indians from India!

[Edited on 1-1-2013 by David K]

Please answer the Question, how can you say they were AMERICAN Indians. :?:

Isn't Mexico in North America?????

David K - 1-1-2013 at 09:57 AM

Yah J.P., I don't understand your point, I guess? The people who lived in North America before (and after) the Europeans arrived were 'American Indians'.

In Baja, we only know for sure about the tribes that were there when the Spaniards came... but it is believed the giant art sites were painted by an earlier tribe many years before the Cochimí... They seemed to be more advanced compared to the way the Cochimí lived, as recorded by the Jesuits.

J.P. - 1-1-2013 at 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Yah J.P., I don't understand your point, I guess? The people who lived in North America before (and after) the Europeans arrived were 'American Indians'.

In Baja, we only know for sure about the tribes that were there when the Spaniards came... but it is believed the giant art sites were painted by an earlier tribe many years before the Cochimí... They seemed to be more advanced compared to the way the Cochimí lived, as recorded by the Jesuits.

The continent was first called the American continent around 1507 It would be interesting to establish the dates the artwork was done.

DianaT - 1-1-2013 at 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
....... They seemed to be more advanced compared to the way the Cochimí lived, as recorded by the Jesuits.

The Europeans were so quick to judge the lifestyles and belief systems of others in negative ways. Unfortunately, we tend to continue to accept their judgments and definitions of primitive and advanced.

Then again, some of the indigenous people saw the Europeans as filthy diseased barbarians.

David K - 1-1-2013 at 10:17 AM

The art work was the only 'written language' of this lost tribe that we have, so what they called themselves or what they called the land is unknown. We call the native people of North America 'American Indians' or 'Native Americans', and if we know the tribe we further identify them by that, Maya, Apache, Yaqui, etc.. All we can do today is credit the work as done by the native American Indians that lived in Baja over 500 years ago...

It might be noteworthy to mention that the Jesuits honored the Indians of Baja by using their name for the various mission sites when there was a rancheria already there (de Mulege, de Ligüí, de Comondú, etc.). The Jesuit maps also listed the tribes on maps showing the nations of Indians in Baja California.

[Edited on 1-1-2013 by David K]

Barry A. - 1-1-2013 at 12:15 PM

Well said, David-----------and your pictures are outstanding!!! I love this stuff, and always have. Your sharing of the pertinant info is so rewarding & helpful to me, and I am sure many others----------thank you.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Barry

David K - 1-1-2013 at 12:30 PM

Very kind Barry, and a Happy New Year to you too!

vandenberg - 1-1-2013 at 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
Then again, some of the indigenous people saw the Europeans as filthy diseased barbarians.

And they hit it pretty much on the nose, especially the folks the explorers/conquerors brought with them. Not European creme of the crop. :biggrin:

David K - 1-1-2013 at 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BAJACAT
Laguna Hanson @ Rancho Santo NiÃ±o ,below EL Calabozo..

Thank you for these JosÃ© (BAJACAT)!

[Edited on 11-19-2019 by David K]

jbcoug - 1-1-2013 at 04:42 PM

Very interesting thread, thanks to all that shared!

John

Udo - 1-1-2013 at 04:54 PM

Thanks for the great photos, David!

Some previous comments were that the paintings were considered ancient graffiti.
Probably a correct assumption.

However, on a short note on my previous post of our trip south, ALL the graffiti, around the area and on the rocks near Cataviña, was being painted over with a rock-colored paint by someone on a pickup truck, paint buckets and a ladder.
Who knows how many days he has been at it, because there was only one rock still left with some very old graffiti.

Bless the guy!

Marc - 1-1-2013 at 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
Then again, some of the indigenous people saw the Europeans as filthy diseased barbarians.

And they hit it pretty much on the nose, especially the folks the explorers/conquerors brought with them. Not European creme of the crop. :biggrin:

Hey! That's my Uncle Sancho you are talking about! :cool:

Udo - 1-1-2013 at 06:49 PM

Later this year, around late spring, I was going to put together a clean-up party with Nomads, I'll supply the 4000PSI pressure washer, and some Nomads bring the water. Spend two or three days spray-washing the rocks.

But now it looks like the plans will be put to sleep for a while.

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Bravo... screw the future's archaeologists... let's see just the rocks and not 'Pedro y Isabela 2009 amor' :light:

JohnMcfrog - 1-2-2013 at 08:56 AM

Thanks for the great photos David.

Was going to comment on the striking colors of the Catavina set, which rival the group at Indian Hill in the southern Anza Borrego. What a loss if these have been defaced.

My favorite book on the subject is "The Forgotten Artist, Indians of Anza-Borrego and Their Rock Art" by Manfred Knaak. He noted that the some of the earliest rock art were the cupules ("cup like depressions pecked into rock surfaces"). To quote from his book:"At La Ferrassie, Frace, a triangular tombstone bears the first man made cupules from the age of Neanderthal man, approximately 100,000 years ago. Cupules in the Great Basin are 5,000 to 7,000 years old; in Anza-Borrego they are believed to be at least 500 years old, and were still being made in historic times."

All these whispers from the past give us a glimpse into what early man saw and felt. I'm glad you took these great photos of the Catavina site, so they are preserved at least in some way.

Juanito

David K - 1-2-2013 at 11:40 AM

Thanks John!

David K - 1-2-2013 at 10:20 PM

Any more Baja norte rock art photos that are near a road?

BAJACAT - 1-2-2013 at 10:37 PM

David what about,the ones on El Vallecito In La Rumorosa..I have like 10 years old pix.One of this days I will make a day trip to take new pictures..

David K - 1-2-2013 at 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BAJACAT
David what about,the ones on El Vallecito In La Rumorosa..I have like 10 years old pix.One of this days I will make a day trip to take new pictures..

My kids and I went to see them and didn't see much...

Maderita - 1-3-2013 at 02:37 AM

The cave paintings at Vallecito are worth visiting if you are in the area. It is an easy drive, less than a mile on a graded dirt road from the exit on the toll road (cuota).

There is a small entrance fee to the gated park which has secure parking and a nice picnic area. Entry might be free on Sundays; at least it was in years past.

Allow approximately 2 hours to walk the easy trails. The pinturas (paintings) are on the underside of large granite boulders. The viewing experience is somewhat compromised by sections of chain link fence erected to protect the paintings from vandalism. A necessary "improvement" I suppose. When I first visited 30 years ago, it was wilderness with no trails.

From Tecate: Drive east on the cuota (toll road) Highway 2, toward Mexicali. Exit at KM 68, the sign reads "Vallecito / La Rumorosa."
Cross the bridge over the cuota and continue north approx. 1/2 mile.

Below is a copy of the map provided at the entrance station/visitor center:

Maderita - 1-3-2013 at 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Any more Baja norte rock art photos that are near a road?

Sure, there are numerous sites. However, I don't see the wisdom in disclosing the locations on the internet. Sadly, such easy access to information leads to increased visitation and ultimately to vandalism.

IMHO, often the best way to protect an area is to limit publication. I know that is antithetical to the approach of the guidebook author who believes information should be shared.
Still, the ethical issues should be considered when discussing sensitive undeveloped/unprotected sites.

bonanza bucko - 1-3-2013 at 08:12 AM

David K:
I think you should keep your mouth shut about the location of these treasures. The world is full of jerks who will promptly go to them to steal what they can to sell or to deface them for fun.
BB:-(

David K - 1-3-2013 at 11:46 AM

If they are photographed and put in books or on the Internet, then they are preserved.... IF in the future any idiot defaces them.

Idiots are not seeking them out here, Baja lovers are here. If Baja lovers cannot enjoy them in person or in photos, then what is the purpose of them? If nobody, I mean nobody knows where they are to enjoy or learn from them then it doesn't matter if they exist or not, right? The coyotes and rattlesnakes aren't enriched by them.

Out of respect for the wishes of others, any site told to me, and asked to not give the exact location online, I honor those wishes. There was one:
Neal Johns showed me the Las Tinajitas site near San Borja, back in 2001... If you go up and see my photos of them, there is no exact location given.

ALL the others (except Petroglyph Park, which Baja Angel and I discovered) are in books already... so someone else published them for the world to see... and most are still untouched. Las Pintas has some modern additions, but not over any ancient ones.

I understand the concern of some of you... but I think as many Baja Nomads as possible should go to these sites, with their children and grandchildren or at least see them online. The same is true of mission ruins and the Camino Real. INAH has been coating the adobe walls of many mission ruins with a white plaster to prevent any further weathering... very little is left of the most of the adobe missions... thank goodness photographs of them were taken and published, so today we can see them, as they were then.

redhilltown - 1-4-2013 at 01:13 AM

Well kudos for you if someone asks and you don't list the directions. On the other hand, "previously published" may be in books long out of print or scarce and thus not available to the causal rock art observer. There are many easily accessible and well known rock art sites in Baja and the desert southwest and I would bet they satisfy the needs of the people who want to visit them for the history and to share with their children.

I like others have spent hundreds if not thousands of hours scouring over the landscape looking for rock art with vague directions or no directions at all...you see basalt and you start looking. GPS cords for any non obvious site is not doing anyone any favors. If a well published easy site...fine...if not, let em find it on their own.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rwolf/8227572157/

David K - 1-4-2013 at 01:42 AM

We discovered one site (Petroglyph Park), very difficult to get to and perhaps impossible now. By showing what's out there, we create more interest in preserving the desert for our own and our children to use. Having a strong reason to preserve it is the historic sites. The more of us who want to see it in person, the better it will have of being preserved... Forgotten sites, unreported sites, or un-visited sites won't be missed and are 'free' for the taking/ defacing (no witnesses).

The more popular sites, that are visited frequently have shown a great chance at survival.

Cataviña was made known to the masses in the 1970's... and it is still untouched. Montevideo in the 1960's... still untouched... El Carmen in the 1890's... San Fernando in the 1910's... Las Pintas, 1980's, does have some modern lettering added,... a small percent compared to the area's size.

Go people, see them now see them often!

[Edited on 1-4-2013 by David K]

salttram - 1-4-2013 at 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
If they are photographed and put in books or on the Internet, then they are preserved.... IF in the future any idiot defaces them.

That is just simply a false statement.

I would only share these delicate sites with people I know well and that I know have only good intentions. Folks who pinpoint locations on Google Earth and give detailed directions to just anybody . . . well someday you might have spray paint on your hands.

David K - 1-4-2013 at 12:11 PM

Well, I don't have them all pinpointed on Google Earth or even GPS'd, so relax. Do you really think there are teenagers with spray paint in Ensenada, reading Baja Nomad and looking on Google Earth for places they can drive hundreds of kilometers to, in order to spray paint them, really?

Anyway, it is true that they are already preserved if they are photographed, and we can only hope they will remain visible for people (like us) to see them where they were made. Denying the people who love Baja from seeing them before they are lost by not saying where they are here (or in books) is selfish IMO. What makes you or me better than anyone else that only we can enjoy them?

mtgoat666 - 1-4-2013 at 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
If Baja lovers cannot enjoy them in person or in photos, then what is the purpose of them?

They have value (as antiquities) to the country, the culture and humanity regardless of whether "Baja lovers" enjoy them. One purpose: they are the country's heritage.

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
If nobody, I mean nobody knows where they are to enjoy or learn from them then it doesn't matter if they exist or not, right?

the art has existed for hundreds or thousands of years, and you think that the only thing of importance is enjoyment at a single point in time, your time. who are you to say undiscovered or unused items are worthless today? do you speak for all future (and past) generations?

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
The coyotes and rattlesnakes aren't enriched by them.

how do you know that? who are you to say that only humans are enriched by art or have capability to enjoy visuals? when i see my dog spend long time gazing over a vista, i think he may be gaining enrichment; perhaps there are animals that appreciate art,... for example, why do some birds collect shiny objects? maybe some (or all) animals have aesthetic sensibilities. you may be foolish to declare that only humans are enriched by art,...

mtgoat666 - 1-4-2013 at 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Well, I don't have them all pinpointed on Google Earth or even GPS'd, so relax. Do you really think there are teenagers with spray paint in Ensenada, reading Baja Nomad and looking on Google Earth for places they can drive hundreds of kilometers to, in order to spray paint them, really?

i think many, many people are prone to commit vandalism (too many). not just kids commit vandalism. i see adults in their 50s and 60s commit vandalism. because of this sad fact of human nature, places like rock art sites should not be publicized. while vandals may not be reading this board, you don't know how information will be disseminated away from this board.

Barry A. - 1-4-2013 at 06:35 PM

I speak as a long time (now retired) permanent National Park Service Ranger, as well as a Federal BLM Ranger in charge of Resource and Antiquity protection, Interpretation, and public enjoyment of same, and I totally agree with David K., tho I realize that many disagree with me. This controversy has been going on within the professional protection and scientific community for at least 50 years that I am personally aware of.

That's my 2-cents on the subject.

Barry

redhilltown - 1-5-2013 at 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
I speak as a long time (now retired) permanent National Park Service Ranger, as well as a Federal BLM Ranger in charge of Resource and Antiquity protection, Interpretation, and public enjoyment of same, and I totally agree with David K., tho I realize that many disagree with me. This controversy has been going on within the professional protection and scientific community for at least 50 years that I am personally aware of.

That's my 2-cents on the subject.

Barry

Thanks Barry for your work but as one of the "many" I'll still disagree! If accessible and well known fine...build it and they will come. If more a more delicate and significant site, let em find it on their own...if they care and give a hoot, they will.

Skipjack Joe - 1-5-2013 at 10:18 AM

I just drove past the catavina area and noticed that all the graffiti on the boulders have been whitewashed to 'remove' them. The result is geometric patches of pure white on weathered granite. It will take eons to bring it back.

I published some beautiful cave art here recently and now they are here on this thread. I've learned my lesson. Never again. Too bad for nomads. I guess I should be grateful that GPS coordinates were not provided.

Ps. A classic dk "kick me" thread.

Barry A. - 1-5-2013 at 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I just drove past the catavina area and noticed that all the graffiti on the boulders have been whitewashed to 'remove' them. The result is geometric patches of pure white on weathered granite. It will take eons to bring it back.

I published some beautiful cave art here recently and now they are here on this thread. I've learned my lesson. Never again. Too bad for nomads. I guess I should be grateful that GPS coordinates were not provided.

Ps. A classic dk "kick me" thread.

Hmmmmm, say what you think is right and helpful, and it is classified as a "kick me" thread???????? To me that is mysterious, speculative logic, and does not track. Personally I am so glad that David can see thru the vindictive rhetoric and rise above it and keep posting his valuable stuff.

Barry

tripledigitken - 1-5-2013 at 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
...I published some beautiful cave art here recently and now they are here on this thread. I've learned my lesson. Never again. Too bad for nomads. I guess I should be grateful that GPS coordinates were not provided....

I don't understand this statement (publish), please explain. If you are talking about your photos being republished without your permission I feel your pain!

Ken

Bajatripper - 1-5-2013 at 11:27 AM

Good thread, David. When I have searched for the Old Road, I often rely on the dates of graffiti for verification and so have come to look at it in less harsh terms today than I once did.

As I sit here in Washington watching the thermometer take below-freezing dips on occasion, I do miss living in La Paz, where my wife complains about it being cold when it gets of 70 degrees. Your photos and comments bring it closer for me.

David K - 1-5-2013 at 11:50 AM

Thank you amigos...

Igor, while you were there and shared your photos (which was wonderful), it wasn't your photos that showed the world where they were... it was a book, published in Mexico that Shari had in the Rock Room that had the same cave. I posted that book and the cave page in my July 2012 trip report as a lead-in to finding the cave. The nearby guest ranch of Piedra Blanca has this cave pictured in their web site. There is a road to the trail-head and a well worn path to the site. There is no secret about it as tours are taken to it. So don't 'kick yourself' for your photos and nobody kicked you.

You are on Baja Nomad to see and learn more Baja, right? Well, no photos, no descriptions would make seeing and learning a bit challenged, right?

micah202 - 1-5-2013 at 07:28 PM

David K
Honored Nomad
I understand the concern of some of you... but I think as many Baja Nomads as possible should go to these sites, with their children and grandchildren or at least see them online.

........thanks David for your fine work and sharing photos of some very special sites that I can only -wish- to see in person some day!!

[Edited on 1-6-2013 by micah202]

David K - 1-5-2013 at 10:23 PM

Thank you! Of interest, this thread on Nomad is nearly 3 years old... yet it brought up a fresh exchange of dialog as if it was a new post!
It is a forum... but if none of us shared, it sure would be a boring place.

Now, if we could only get Woody to disclose his secret surfing location in the Seven Sisters... :lol:

micah202 - 1-5-2013 at 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Thank you! Of interest, this thread on Nomad is nearly 3 years old...

...but the subject is quite literally -timeless-!!!

.

Skipjack Joe - 1-6-2013 at 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Thank you amigos...

Igor, while you were there and shared your photos (which was wonderful), it wasn't your photos that showed the world where they were... it was a book, published in Mexico that Shari had in the Rock Room that had the same cave. I posted that book and the cave page in my July 2012 trip report as a lead-in to finding the cave. The nearby guest ranch of Piedra Blanca has this cave pictured in their web site. There is a road to the trail-head and a well worn path to the site. There is no secret about it as tours are taken to it. So don't 'kick yourself' for your photos and nobody kicked you.

You are on Baja Nomad to see and learn more Baja, right? Well, no photos, no descriptions would make seeing and learning a bit challenged, right?

A.
Where do I state anywhere that I "discovered" this cave? What motivated you to write about the literature and Piedra Blanca's cave excursions? Nobody denied any of that.

B.
You have contrived an either-or fallacy to support your actions. Either we reveal the caves or we don't want people to see their paintings. None of that is true. Those who criticize your actions do so because they want paintings to be there for people to see, the total opposite of what you're saying. They want some safeguard for the preservation of that art. You provide none. You place the art in harms way. The people of Piedra Blanca provide guided tours to these sights where their clients are under their watchful eyes. Those of us who don't see things your way would like to (a) first provide security for this sites and then (b) provide the gps coordinates. You choose to omit (a). I find that irresponsible.

You don't take a Mona Lisa and hang it in a train station so that as many people as possible can see it. I don't understand why you don't get it. Nobody is trying to deny anyone the right to see anything.

[Edited on 1-6-2013 by Skipjack Joe]

Barry A. - 1-6-2013 at 10:15 AM

It has been my experience with 30 years with the National Park Service and Bureau of Land Management that the type of security that SkipJack talks about is generally impossible to accomplish, and even then only happens at a tiny fraction of the "sites", and renders those sites in some cases as zoo-like, and the wonder is lost. Still, the protection-zealots sometimes prevail, the result being that 1000's of sites are almost NEVER seen by the public. Personally I think this is a shame, and a travesty.

The same type thinking in the western Public Lands has resulted in hundreds, if not thousands, of once open and free public roads being closed to all but the "elite"--------all because of a few knotheads that misbehaved somewhere sometime. "Punish the many for the actions of a few"-----.

THAT is "irresponsible", in my view.

Barry

mtgoat666 - 1-6-2013 at 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
It has been my experience with 30 years with the National Park Service and Bureau of Land Management that the type of security that SkipJack talks about is generally impossible to accomplish, and even then only happens at a tiny fraction of the "sites", and renders those sites in some cases as zoo-like, and the wonder is lost. Still, the protection-zealots sometimes prevail, the result being that 1000's of sites are almost NEVER seen by the public. Personally I think this is a shame, and a travesty.

The same type thinking in the western Public Lands has resulted in hundreds, if not thousands, of once open and free public roads being closed to all but the "elite"--------all because of a few knotheads that misbehaved somewhere sometime. "Punish the many for the actions of a few"-----.

THAT is "irresponsible", in my view.

Barry

no one is being "punished." natural and cultural resources are simply being protected.

what is this BS about only the elite being able to access roadless areas? there are plenty of areas accessible by road. it would be silly to say that ALL public lands should be accessible by road. there are already sufficient areas accessible by road. being fit enough to hike beyond the road end is not an elite status, it is a normal human status.

Punish Many For the Actions Of A Few

J.P. - 1-6-2013 at 10:54 AM

Isn't that the American Way " Home Land Security"

Barry A. - 1-6-2013 at 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Goat----------"BS" ??????? Thousands are being "punished" as they no longer can visit places that they have been going to for ages with their families and friends, my family included. The result being that part of our tradition is lost forever--------for WHAT??? The few vandals still find ways to get around the "protection" devices, believe me!!! It is a challenge to them to find ways around the "protection devices"!!! Only the law-abiding are punished since they mostly obey the closures.

The "elite" I am referring to are the Bureau folks and the "scientists" that still use these "closed" roads to access areas that THEY want to see, and/or explore, and "study". It happens, believe me, all the time--------I was THERE. They DO NOT hike in, except in very rare occasions!!

I agree that some areas should be set aside as "roadless", but the Feds have gone wayyyyyyyy to far due to the pressure of a few. Who decides what are "sufficient" areas still open to existing roads travel------that is a VERY subjective topic, and the zealots with obvious intentions have gone wayyyyyyy to far, IMO, and I was right in the middle of these decisions, tho often in the minority. Many, most of which never even visit these areas, want it ALL closed off to vehicles, horses, etc.------crazy, and incredibly selfish!!! Many of us, including me, because of age or other disabilities, cannot hike miles to see something. When there is an existing road to these areas, and it is closed off, it is especially frustrating and maddening to many--------and for WHAT??? I know of no areas that were closed off on the Public Lands of SoCal and elsewhere that were not violated by some of the "vandals"-------NONE!!! Again, it mostly keeps out the law abiding, but the vandals get in anyway because they are VANDALS, and that is what VANDALS do!!!

Often what these closures do is infuriate folks that would otherwise obey laws, causing them to retaliate and destroy things that they would otherwise not do. Again, many of these closures are CRAZY!!!! and counter-productive!!

I have been there, and saw it, and been involved in these decisions!!! and have seen the results. It drives me and my Family nuts!!!!

Barry

Skipjack Joe - 1-6-2013 at 11:14 AM

As i said before, Barry, it's a wonder you ever worked for the Park Service. A ranger who is an anti conservationist. Frankly I don't know how you got along with the other Park Service employees. I have never met one with your mindset and I've been to most parks in the western US. Perhaps the law enforcement wing of the Service walks to a different beat than the rest.

Anyway you haven't provided any argument as to where my statements are wrong. All you've said is that they don't work. Please provide actual information. Please stay on the subject.

The highway is littered with graffiti for anyone to see. These have been so-called idiots but we're to assume that the people who read DK's directions are not. Why?

There is a road leading to the paintings. What guarantee can you provide that the walls won't be trashed? Can you please answer that? It's a simple enough question. Are you saying that the price to pay for a defamed wall art is worth the price of having visitors see it until it happens? Is that your position? Are you even knowledgable enough to understand the value of these paintings to make such a decision?

I have already made plain to you that this is not an elitist issue. Read above. Why do you persist in repeating it?

Skipjack Joe - 1-6-2013 at 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Again, it mostly keeps out the law abiding, but the vandals get in anyway because they are VANDALS, and that is what VANDALS do!!!

Barry

Do you realize what you wrote? Because we can't eradicate vandalism we should give them free reign. Let's get rid of our police force. Let's open our jails. We're not getting all the criminals, let's let them have at it.

Natalie Ann - 1-6-2013 at 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
[Igor], I was offering some comfort to you for you, after you posted the "kick me" comment, so you would not feel this guilt you put on yourself. You did not disclose the location, others did....

nena

[Edited on 1-6-2013 by Natalie Ann]

Barry A. - 1-6-2013 at 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Again, it mostly keeps out the law abiding, but the vandals get in anyway because they are VANDALS, and that is what VANDALS do!!!

Barry

You are making your own interpretations of what you THINK I meant, not what I said.

To me, Law Enforcement should of course try and prevent criminal acts, and catch criminals (a given), but in this case (remote site vandalism) it is realistically a mostly impossible task, and the barriers that we put up ostensibly to prevent it are mostly symbolism-only in reality----------i.e. they don't really work, and they certainly desecrate the pristine quality of these sites, just like the vandals grafitti does-----so what is the point? I encourage small and descrete "interpretation" signs at often-visited "sites", but that's it. (and even these signs eventually are ALWAYS vandalized). In other words, don't punish the many for the bad destructive actions of the few-----don't visually ruin or hide a site just because there are crazy's out there that will desecrate the site-----keep the big picture in mind--------answer the question of what you are trying to accomplish, and is it worth it to limit the publics enjoyment of same. It's subjective, of course, and the crucial question is what are your objectives? Mine is to provide for the enjoyment and education of the public in most cases, not to hide something---lock it up---- that is declared by those in the know of limited or obscure scientific value, usually because "the value" is duplicated a 1000 times over already.

That is simply selfish & myoptic, in my opinion.

Barry

Barry A. - 1-6-2013 at 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
As i said before, Barry, it's a wonder you ever worked for the Park Service. A ranger who is an anti conservationist. Frankly I don't know how you got along with the other Park Service employees. I have never met one with your mindset and I've been to most parks in the western US. Perhaps the law enforcement wing of the Service walks to a different beat than the rest.

Anyway you haven't provided any argument as to where my statements are wrong. All you've said is that they don't work. Please provide actual information. Please stay on the subject.

The highway is littered with graffiti for anyone to see. These have been so-called idiots but we're to assume that the people who read DK's directions are not. Why?

There is a road leading to the paintings. What guarantee can you provide that the walls won't be trashed? Can you please answer that? It's a simple enough question. Are you saying that the price to pay for a defamed wall art is worth the price of having visitors see it until it happens? Is that your position? Are you even knowledgable enough to understand the value of these paintings to make such a decision?

I have already made plain to you that this is not an elitist issue. Read above. Why do you persist in repeating it?

Much of what you write here I don't believe I understand, just as you mis-interpret what I am saying.

I not only was a "Park Ranger", I was a Supervisor of Park Ranger's who was assigned to Grand Canyon, Glacier Natl. Park, Dinosaur Natl. Mon, Cape Hatteras and Wright Brothers, etc.---some of the cream of the Park Service sites, and I got along well with my fellow NPS and BLM cohorts, thankyou. You appear to not really understand what LE is all about, and / or your expectations are quite unrealistic-------many are guilty of this.

I am NOT a "anti-conservationist". In fact I was a member of the Sierra Club for years until they took a lot of bad turns in their policies, mostly under Dave Brower's leadership, and acted without knowledge of, and education about, their stands on many environmental issues. I, and my Family, quit the Club over these issues. The Club has gotten only worse since, IMO, decreasing their effectiveness and credibility-----and that's a shame.

Law Enforcement often does take a different stand on issues since we are the one's that are trusted and expected to enforce the regs, and understand mostly what works, and what doesn't. Unfortunately, there are many different opinions within the Law Enforcement community, not to mention with the Interpretive Branch, which has led to a sad schism within the Service between LE and Interpretation, and within LE itself. Silly, but true.

I never said you statements were wrong---------I just don't believe they work, are practical, and most important, are in the best interests of the majority.

Most vandals are not researching places to vandalize--------in fact I would submit that it almost never happens (if ever)---------so I am not worried that some crazy is going to read David's posts and say, "Ah Ha, some place to vandalize". (Even tho I admit that some NOMAD'S do sometimes appear crazy-----not you, of course)

I cannot in any way "guarantee" that any sites will not be vandalized-------we live in a world with a few crazies, and NOTHING that we do will change that. Yes, I AM saying that the priority of the Public seeing these sites far outweighs the priority of trying to protect them from the inevitable and occasional vandal in these circumstances. And no, I am not qualified to "say that" even tho I have a minor in Anthropoligy and Archeology, but I have talked to many who are qualified, and some agree with me (many selfish Archy folks do not), especially on the sites with very limited scientific value--------and that have been professionally photographed and documented, if possible, or practical, or realistic.

I explained in another post to "the Goat" my meaning in saying "elitists", but to summarize----scientific types within and outside the Bureau, in-house Govt. Manager's including Congressional tours, Bureau LE types in declared hot-pursuit, and Interpretive and Maint. folks doing their work, tours by special purpose groups like the Sierra Club, etc.------all of which are sometimes allowed to violate restrictions and closures in the name of "need to know and see and do", or to "evaluate" despite the illegality of many of these "exceptions". I participated in many of them over my 30 year career. Many of these "closures" are NOT respected by the very people that the environmental community FORCES to establish them thru their lobbying of Congress and Fed. Manager's. Bureaucrats do as they are told, but they don't necessarily agree with it all, and that disagreement sometimes manifests itself. (I never did this, of course)

Barry

micah202 - 1-6-2013 at 01:38 PM

...my gawsh,,,yer all sat on the same cactus patch or what????? :?:

...or is it just a bad batch of coffee on the peninsula.??

...how does that saying go?.....''is a pictograph precious if nobody sees it''???

...there's just sooo few people who don't at least feel 'SPOOKED'or'HEXXED' if they were to damage something like those artifacts----that's why they're STILL IN GOOD CONDITION :yes:

...if these sites were chained off like others have been,,,that's when devious minds start to (tr)oll

[Edited on 1-6-2013 by micah202]

Barry A. - 1-6-2013 at 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by micah202
..''is a pictograph precious if nobody sees it''???

Not to me it isn't---------

Either is a Van Gogh

Barry

Skipjack Joe - 1-6-2013 at 03:44 PM

Looks like we've come to a standstill:

You say that it's selfish to protect these paintings at the cost of people seeing them.

I say it's selfish to let the general public view them until they are properly protected.

Notice that nobody is suggesting that this art be not seen by anyone. Yet you keep insisting that.

You say that these sites should have minimal protection because it can't be done. I see that as being beside the point. How it's done is a different matter. Do you mean that if it could be protected you would support it? That then we wouldn't be labeled as "selfish".

I think part of the problem is what value we place on these paintings. From my perspective you don't value them enough. On the other hand, a museum curator may feel that I don't value them enough. In fact, this entire thread may be defined as those who care more than others. I, for one, don't see much beauty in the geometric petroglyphs that abound everywhere and wouldn't mind having those less protected. An archeologist may feel otherwise. But I'm ready to consider the opinion of an expert and give it more weight than my own. I mean, that's what they're there for.

Regarding Vandalism. I'm begining to think that these places wouldn't be vandalized. They would simply be trashed by those who have no understanding of it's value. I'm assuming that vandalism denotes an evil intent. It's interesting that large segments of the highway are trashed because they don't see any value in a rock. However, you'll notice that the virgins of guadalupe along the road are never desecrated. But a rock is just a rock. A convenient substance upon which to write on. This is due to ignorance. It is that same ignorance that will likely cause some traveler to write "Bobby + Betty" over a cave painting.

David K - 1-6-2013 at 04:07 PM

One more time, just so we don't get too much over done with our thoughts on letting people know about these treasures...

NONE have been defaced/ ruined (and I have been posting about Baja on the Internet since 1998, if you think what I do here is wrong).

The more people know about them, the better chance they have of being valued, respected, etc. I only wish the missions were better photographed and respected, perhaps we would see more of them today if some value was placed on them. They had no value to be saved, so people (and Nature) destroyed much of them.

These sites are already found in books and magazine articles for a hundred or more years, do you complain to those authors? The Internet is just another form of communication. Again, none of the sites have been ruined that I shared in this thread.

rts551 - 1-6-2013 at 04:17 PM

I wonder how many artifacts may have been destroyed by people walking and posing below these paintings? Just another take on what may be protected

MMc - 1-6-2013 at 04:41 PM

If you were to replace cave painting with Baja You all would sound like me b-tching about DK other postings :lol:

This is a "kick me post".

Barry A. - 1-6-2013 at 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
I wonder how many artifacts may have been destroyed by people walking and posing below these paintings? Just another take on what may be protected

It depends. If there are pottery scatters below the paintings, then yes, many are destroyed simply by walking on them. I doubt that this is usually the case at "rock art" sites as pottery scatters are normally associated with cooking areas, not "art sites". If there is cryptobiotic soil crusts in the area (common in Utah), any trampling of the area even once leads to erosion and destruction of the soil crust, thus allowing artifacts to be washed away. In reality, all kinds of damage can be happen when excess traffic passes thru, so everything is a trade-off.

Most artifact destruction is caused by people just picking them up and walking away with them. It is human-nature to do this, even by so-called educated people. This always destroys the integrity of the site, but there is very little that can be done about that. This is why it is so important for Archy-folks to inventory, photograph, and collect the site ASAP. But there are so many sites that it happens only at the very special sites. Most sites do not yield much "new" information, if any----it is mostly all duplicated already at other sites, but it is still fascinating to see and find by the layman, as is the rock-art itself.

I have spent hours and days locating "sites" of all kinds left by the Native People's, and historical rock-art left by the early pioneers and explorers in Utah and Idaho and Wyoming-------just to see and visit them, and speculate. I love that.

Barry

David K - 1-6-2013 at 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
I wonder how many artifacts may have been destroyed by people walking and posing below these paintings? Just another take on what may be protected

Since the sites are not secret, the archaeologists had plenty of years to study them. I suggest you read the papers by William Massey and Eric Ritter to verify... The building of the Transpeninsular Highway is the first place you should throw blame at... because if it is people seeing these place you hate so much, that is what has brought the most people to Baja... I like people and think people are the most important living things on the planet. It is people who made the rock art sites and it is for people to enjoy them.

Coyote and other critters do plenty of disturbing. As passionate as I am about historic sites, being careless and destructive isn't part of my goal. Preserving and giving importance and recognition to them is.

DianaT - 1-6-2013 at 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Natalie Ann

Quote:

nena

[Edited on 1-6-2013 by Natalie Ann]

rts551 - 1-6-2013 at 05:30 PM

Geeze. What a jerk. I asked a question. Didn't say anything about hate or who is destroying the site. Although I thing Barry made some good points about preserving an area.

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
I wonder how many artifacts may have been destroyed by people walking and posing below these paintings? Just another take on what may be protected

Barry A. - 1-6-2013 at 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Looks like we've come to a standstill:

Notice that nobody is suggesting that this art be not seen by anyone. Yet you keep insisting that.

You say that these sites should have minimal protection because it can't be done. I see that as being beside the point. How it's done is a different matter. Do you mean that if it could be protected you would support it? That then we wouldn't be labeled as "selfish".

I think part of the problem is what value we place on these paintings. From my perspective you don't value them enough. On the other hand, a museum curator may feel that I don't value them enough. In fact, this entire thread may be defined as those who care more than others. I, for one, don't see much beauty in the geometric petroglyphs that abound everywhere and wouldn't mind having those less protected. An archeologist may feel otherwise. But I'm ready to consider the opinion of an expert and give it more weight than my own. I mean, that's what they're there for.

I must not be writing clearly, SkipJack. I do not "insist" that you pro-protection and secrecy folks are saying that "nobody" can see the sites----you're not-------but you surely are saying that it should be limited to the experts only, and people that experts can trust. (By the way, I understand this belief, but I just think it is wrong in many cases)

I say that these sites have none or "only minimal protection" not because it can't be done (tho it can't) but because I believe it does more harm than good to restrict visitation and clutter up the site with baracades. What "good" are these sites if people can't see and hopefully appreciate them in their pristine existence? If they could be protected with some kind of a death-ray (kidding), then yes, I approve of that as it is not visually intrusive (until the ray hits you). So yes, you would not be "selfish" then. I interpret the "selfish" part as the insistance that the locations of these many sites remain secret to most people----that, to me, is selfish, and totally unnessary.

The "geometric petroglyphs" (otherwise known as "geo-glyphs") are NOT common, and in fact are very rare relatively speaking. And I think they are incredible, and extremely fragile. All the one's that were in my area of responsibility (Imperial Valley) were fenced and patrolled (but vandals still got in and damaged them). It is interesting to note that several of the Geo-Glyphs had mostly survived for years totally unprotected, but shortly after we fenced them vandals tore down a section of the steel pole fence and spun divots upon the Glyphs with their motorcycles and dune buggies.

The "experts" are all over the place on protection including the Archaeologists. The more reasonable and flexible one's realize that many sites are NOT that valuable to Science, but are of tremendous value for the people to see and appreciate, and people should be encouraged to go and see them. Those big-picture decisions are made by Manager's and Supervisor's, not the individual Archeologists, in many cases anyway, as they should be.

Barry

Skipjack Joe - 1-6-2013 at 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

I say that these sites have none or "only minimal protection" not because it can't be done (tho it can't) but because I believe it does more harm than good to restrict visitation and clutter up the site with baracades. What "good" are these sites if people can't see and hopefully appreciate them in their pristine existence?

Barry,

I have spent about 5 posts saying the same thing now and yet you still don't get it.

NOBODY IS TRYING TO KEEP THESE SITES FROM BEING SEEN.

DO YOU READ ME?

The difference is that one side wants them to be protected before exposure and the other does not.

Now I understand that it is very convenient to paint one side as being selfish to gain support but there is truth to that. It's just propaganda.

There are plenty of great rock paintings in baja that are now protected (a waste of time by your standards). Why don't you guys concentrate your efforts on telling the public about them until baja gets its act together on the remainder.

Barry A. - 1-6-2013 at 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Like two ship passing in the fog before radar---------I think I "get it", yet you can't see it. We are just like Congress. :lol:

Zeus help us!!!!

Barry

micah202 - 1-6-2013 at 09:09 PM

...can you guys hold on a bit!!!??.......

........I'm running out of popcorn!! :spingrin:

BAJACAT - 1-6-2013 at 10:45 PM

most of the time, the damage is done by local people, not tourist...just my two cents...

Skipjack Joe - 1-6-2013 at 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
So sad some Nomads don't want other Nomads to see these gifts of our past. I will continue to share our California history because to not is not my (or anyone else's) right to say who can also enjoy our past.

How could it be otherwise? A narcissist is incapable of being wrong or learning from anyone but himself.

The only thing sad is you.

David K - 1-6-2013 at 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BAJACAT
most of the time, the damage is done by local people, not tourist...just my two cents...

Thank you José, it is what I have seen on the boulders along highways, as well.

redhilltown - 1-7-2013 at 12:12 AM

I think for the most part ("most" being relative) that this argument as Barry has said is a fairly common one and certainly worth having and DK has a point in that it is his thread. But I bristle a bit with the notion that if you disagree with him you are out of line. I totally agree with Skipjack that the notion is NOT that they should be surrounded by fences with armed guards but that the lesser and more unknown sites might be best left under-publicized (if that is a word!)

When I was at the Great Gallery in Utah some years back we came upon an older gentleman with a cane who was taking a break from the hike and we chatted him up and he spoke of some graffiti on the rocks from the 1940's or so...he said it sadden him to see it but sadden him more in that the guy was probably dead and he couldn't track him down and kick his butt for doing it!

If it's a well known site fine...if not, be quiet and those that wish will find it on there own.

Skipjack Joe - 1-7-2013 at 07:03 AM

Why the surprise David? This DK "Kick Me" game has been played here hundreds of times. The thread has come to the only conclusion it could come.

You started a thread stating that many hear would not agree with you and ended it by telling those who don't agree to not post at all.

You don't like being called a narcissist? How else to explain your rigid, messianic fervor here on this board. You start a controversial thread but don't bother responding to those who provide you with reasons why you are wrong. You simply state your same views over and over again.

The idea that a site is protected by simply having more people see it, belongs in grammar school, David. This is the best you can come up with? Shame on you.

it's my party and i will cry if i want to

mtgoat666 - 1-7-2013 at 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Sorry you don't agree, but this is my thread,...

if you own a thread, can you sell it? if you own a thread, can someone steal it? if i post in someone elses thread am i trespassing or vandalizing? can we exercise eminent domain and take a thread for public use? if a thread is private property, can the owner prohibit speech on his/her private property?

:?:

Skipjack Joe - 1-7-2013 at 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Some Facts:
Because a book or Internet displays something does not mean it will be destroyed.

Proof: Not one of the sites I included in this thread have been destroyed. Las Pintas does have some additions from 'locals', but not on top of ancient markings.

Conclusion: Sharing a rock art site photo is harmless, and benefits those who have not yet seen it.

Knowledge and education about our history is the best way to help sites to gain appreciation and value.

Some facts?
What fact are you providing? Do you know what a fact is? That's just your conjecture not a fact.

Proof?
That's not proof. That's just circumstantial. If you provide the means to destroy something and it hasn't been destroyed does not mean that you haven't assisted in vanadalism.

Conclusion?
Again conjecture without substance. You haven't provided any facts or proof. That's just an opinion.

"Knowledge and education about our history is the best way to help sites to gain appreciation and value. "
Well, I have to agree with you on that one. But it really has nothing to do with exposing unprotected sites.

Regarding Barry. I am fully aware that different adminisatrations appoint their own "environmentalists" for their own specific needs. One only needs to remember James Watt, the head of the EPA under the Reagan administration to see how this org was manipulated. "Land of Many Uses" seems to mean different things to different administrations. Making someone a supervisor does not necessarily mean much more than that you support the policies the new administration wants to set.

Barry states that these sites should remain unprotected because they can't be protected. Do you know how long I would have a job if they gave me a task to do and I would return the paper saying "Sorry, it can't be done. It's too difficult". Not very long.

Besides, I really don't like people who flash their resume to support a point. Support it with information for goshsakes. Stand on your own 2 feet.

David K - 1-7-2013 at 12:07 PM

So, in keeping with the theme of THIS THREAD, please post some petros or pictos in Baja Norte close to a road.

CaboDreamer - 1-7-2013 at 12:15 PM

....back to what the post is about. Here is a painting that David K and his crew passed by on his adventure in BCS this last year. He was within a kilometer or two if it as he drove north on the East Cape. The vague description of the location of this "anatomically correct?" figure is to alleviate any concerns of sharing exact locations.

http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y510/CaboDreamer/P101023...

rts551 - 1-7-2013 at 12:25 PM

DK

How do you know if anything has been destroyed. After you trample around...put your hands on every thing, drive around the site etc...who knows what was destroyed. You are not providing facts...only your own misguided opinion.....

Sorry but Barry was only a civil servant(low level GS at that..sorry Barry)...not an environmental expert.

and as I remember right, you are the one always touting this is a public forum.

Why are the sites a San Francisco de La Sierra protected? too many people messing with them!

mtgoat666 - 1-7-2013 at 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
DK

How do you know if anything has been destroyed. After you trample around...put your hands on every thing, drive around the site etc...who knows what was destroyed. You are not providing facts...only your own misguided opinion.....

Sorry but Barry was only a civil servant(low level GS at that..sorry Barry)...not an environmental expert.

and as I remember right, you are the one always touting this is a public forum.

Why are the sites a San Francisco de La Sierra protected? too many people messing with them!

in all Barry's time in blm or park service, is astounding that he never heard about the antiquities stealing from public lands in USA. people are out there every day robbing graves and archaeological sites. prime reason sites are kept secret unless fenced/secured.

David K - 1-7-2013 at 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboDreamer
....back to what the post is about. Here is a painting that David K and his crew passed by on his adventure in BCS this last year. He was within a kilometer or two if it as he drove north on the East Cape. The vague description of the location of this "anatomically correct?" figure is to alleviate any concerns of sharing exact locations.

http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y510/CaboDreamer/P101023...

Looks like the site Mike McMahan found and showed in his 1973 book: 'There It Is: Baja!' ? Do you have a photo of it not so close-up?
Thank you

CaboDreamer - 1-7-2013 at 12:43 PM

As you requested David.....

http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y510/CaboDreamer/P101023...

David K - 1-7-2013 at 12:46 PM

Is it the same place as in the book with Mike McMahan, do you think?

[Edited on 1-7-2013 by David K]

CaboDreamer - 1-7-2013 at 01:24 PM

Most definitely the same site David.

http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y510/CaboDreamer/P101025...

Barry A. - 1-7-2013 at 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Goat------More incorrect assumptions. Where do you come up with this stuff?? We are talking about pictographs and petroglyphs in this thread, not premier-village-sites.

I was very familiar with antiquities theft, had a Ranger Archaeologist on my staff as well as a professional Environmentalist. The Ranger Archaeologist I hired out of Utah and she travelled with me and was the first female LE Ranger in BLM, and she and I spent a lot of time in Utah evaluating Antiquity site protection status and feasibility on request by the BLM State Director of Utah. I was a GS-12 at the time and for about 8 years., one of only 13 Law Enforcement Rangers within BLM. (it sometimes is necessary to establish qualificantions, SkipJack, sorry if that offends you) In fairness, my staff Ranger Archaeologist had a lot of arguments with me about "protection", and we often disagreed. She wanted to lock them ALL up, and out of sight-------but we both agreed that site protection was a severe problem since most sites are far out in the boonies and neither of us wanted "physical" barriers erected so as to maintain site integrity. Most barricaded and interpreted "sites" are viewed by Staff as "throw-a-way" sites from a scientific point of view---and they have already been inventoried.

It is questionable that people are "out there everyday" stealing antiquities, but it IS a significant problem, especially at the premier-sites in Utah and western Colorado where there is a still significant amounts of stealable stuff. Very occasionally arrests are made and convictions obtained, but I would estimate that about 98% of the thefts are never solved, and most arrestee's are found not-guilty for lack of adaquate applicable evidence if they ever get to trial-------it's a tragic problem, for sure. There are severe Federal penalties for Antiquity Theft, and Judges are wary of imposing them since most Fed. Judges, and especially local Judges, don't seem to put much importance on prosecuting violations of the Antiquities Act. That is slowly changing, tho.

But Goat is right in that it is "the prime reason" that most sites are kept secret from the public eye, and few ever get to see them----that does afford some protection. But remember, the sites of Utah and Colorado (etc.) are far and away more suspectable to significant vandalism and theft, very important scientifically, unlike the petro and picto sites we find in Baja CA., with the exception of the cave-sites of Central Baja, and elsewhere in Baja CA.. Also, understand that most of the numerous picto and petro sites, and even the village sites, in Anza-Borrego Desert State Park are totally physically unprotected, tho most are not readily advertised by the Park Staff. The info on them and their location is certainly available in books, tho, and many of them have been visited by me because of those "books", and a few others I have found on my own, and taken many friends and relatives to see.

Barry

DianaT - 1-7-2013 at 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
...
Sorry you don't agree, but this is my thread, and it is you who are not satisfied with my posts here.

Skipjack Joe - 1-7-2013 at 05:36 PM

Yeah, pretty funny. "We don't play with my jacks unless we play my way"..

The difference between a Barry post and a DK post is monumental.

Barry A. - 1-7-2013 at 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Weird how 'some' take words out of context to distort their meaning.

Just what is it about my photos of the petro/ picto sites is wrong, but others, books, magazines is right?

Or, maybe a long drawn-out exchange of disagreements is the food for some need of drama here?

:rolleyes:

Bingo, David -------I think it is mostly "Drama"-----for reasons I cannot fathom!!! My first wife was a IQ-138 Drama-Queen-----and often NOBODY knew what she was talking about. She still has that problem, but we love her anyway.

Barry

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