BajaNomad - 80# gulf grouper

80# gulf grouper

Santiago - 2-9-2009 at 09:07 PM

http://www.mexfish.com/mfn/mfn2009/mfn%7F090209/mfn090209.ht...

Gene reports an big gulf grouper out of Santa Rosalita this week - anyone see this?

fishbuck - 2-9-2009 at 09:36 PM

Awesome!!!

4baja - 2-10-2009 at 07:24 AM

nice fish!!!

Paulina - 2-10-2009 at 08:17 AM

Nice fish, but too bad they kept it.

Hook - 2-10-2009 at 09:02 AM

Agree with Paulina.

There really is no excuse for not carrying an inexpensive releasing rig. Well, unless you feel you must kill, I guess.

Picture a 14/0 hook with the shank pointed down. Crimp the barb against the body of the hook. Attach 6 inches of some heavy mono or wire at the middle of the bend and terminate the other end with a barrel swivel.

Now attach a longer piece of wire/line to the eye and terminate that with a clip swivel. Onto this attach lead of sufficient weight to get it down.

Have a pole with some heavy line on board just for this purpose. Spectra is best, since you want to minimize line stretch.

When you catch a big bottom dweller, attach the hook through the upper lip with the point pointed down. Now lower the fish with a consistent descent rate to the bottom. Once you're near the bottom, give a quick jerk upward on the rig to "release" the hook from the lip. Even if he revives before you get there and begins to move off on his own, the hook will release pretty quickly.

Cost of rig-about 5.00-10.00 dollars

Release of an old gulf grouper-PRICELESS!!

[Edited on 2-10-2009 by Hook]

Pescador - 2-10-2009 at 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
Agree with Paulina.

There really is no excuse for not carrying an inexpensive releasing rig. Well, unless you feel you must kill, I guess.

Picture a 14/0 hook with the shank pointed down. Crimp the barb against the body of the hook. Attach 6 inches of some heavy mono or wire at the middle of the bend and terminate the other end with a barrel swivel.

Now attach a longer piece of wire/line to the eye and terminate that with a clip swivel. Onto this attach lead of sufficient weight to get it down.

Have a pole with some heavy line on board just for this purpose. Spectra is best, since you want to minimize line stretch.

When you catch a big bottom dweller, attach the hook through the upper lip with the point pointed down. Now lower the fish with a consistent descent rate to the bottom. Once you're near the bottom, give a quick jerk upward on the rig to "release" the hook from the lip. Even if he revives before you get there and begins to move off on his own, the hook will release pretty quickly.

Cost of rig-about 5.00-10.00 dollars

Release of an old gulf grouper-PRICELESS!!

[Edited on 2-10-2009 by Hook]

This is good theory but the reality is that these fish occur very infrequently. I have fished this area a lot in the last ten years and have managed to only catch two big grouper with one in the 75-80 lb category and another around 156 lbs. they are a totally incidental catch and usualy come when fishing for yellowtail, which is what Ed Duitsman was doing in January when he caught this one. It is a great idea to have a release rig ready and there is a new one from Australia that is covered in last month Sportfishing Magazine but you have to be thinking that you have a chance of catching one of these fish and then have the release equipment ready to go.
All of these fish come from over 100 ft in depth and when you get them up beyond 40 feet, the air bladder inflates and the fish becomes incapable of swimming on it's own. So you have to either release the gases in the bladder ( this is only partially successful with a release vent) or you have to have a rig like Hook is suggesting which will carry the fish back down to the depths where the bladder will shrink to its normal size and the fish can swim away.
I have suggested for a long time that people carry these rigs but I also understand that people like Ed Duitsman may only come across one of these fish in his lifetime so it is a little unrealistic to expect that he would have had a release rig at the ready. I have talked to several fishermen from the Rocky Point area, where they find these fish more frequently, who carry some type of release rig.

Hook - 2-10-2009 at 04:56 PM

I wouldnt call having an extra pole and this one rig an "unrealistic" expectation, when fishing on the bottom. We all carry extra poles out there. It's just a matter of making the rig and fighting the urge to take the fish.

Is using it rare? Yes.

I have only used it once and that was on a fish that was somewhere around 20-30 lbs. I say somewhere because I am reluctant to weigh, hold a fish up, plop it on my lap and THEN release it, Mexfish.com style. :rolleyes:

What are these people thinking? All for a weeks worth of fame on the internet? :no:

And if more and more people continue to take these fish with no plan on how to release them...........it will become even rarer than it is these days.

To each, his own, though..........especially when it comes to fishing in Mexico.

Santiago - 2-10-2009 at 05:25 PM

Thanks Hook - I've never heard of that and will make one of these; ensuring, of course, that I'll never catch one - but that's ok too.
Who was the charter captain on the old Amigos board from CSL that used to rant pretty heavily on those folks who killed big fish, especially bill fish.

fishbuck - 2-10-2009 at 05:33 PM

I gotta say that if I caught a fish like this I would be totally unprepared to release it. I would release it if the captain knew how. I would not want that much meat and would prefer to keep 1 smaller one for diner.
I have watched a few very large black seabass released from California party fishing boats. They usually just poke a hole in the swim bladder with a knife and put him back in the water.
I hope that works!

[Edited on 2-11-2009 by fishbuck]

Gaucho - 2-10-2009 at 05:44 PM

I've never eaten one of those really large grouper or black sea bass but I can't imagine they would taste very good. I've eaten a few large (old) calico bass, halibut etc... :barf:

They just don't taste as good as the younger "meal size" fish :yes:

Bajaboy - 2-10-2009 at 06:01 PM

Our neighbor in Asuncion recently caught one that was about a 100 kilos. It was amazing watching them clean the fish and all the excitement that went along with it. They were fishing for yellowtail using 40# test.

Based on what I saw, these fish are not caught that often. While plenty of people here say the fish should have been released, plenty of locals were fed for some time. And Gaucho, the fish was incredibly tasty by the way. We were offered a bag of the fish which we happily accepted.

As Hook said, to each his own.

Zac

Gaucho - 2-10-2009 at 07:11 PM

Since I've never eaten a really big grouper I'll give it a try next time I'm down there if the opportunity presents itself. I really like the BIGGER pelagics; tuna, wahoo, dorado, yellowtail etc... :yes:

Don Alley - 2-11-2009 at 08:42 AM

I just got one of these venting tools:

http://www.teammarineusa.us/html/prevent.html

Haven't used it yet.

Mostly for bottom fish caught incidently while making bait. Large grouper are very rarely caught here. I've only caught two gulf grouper and neither was a big one.

Skipjack Joe - 2-11-2009 at 10:57 AM

Most nomads who post on this forum are very experienced baja fishermen who fish down there a lot and are very aware of the state of the fishery, the life span of different species, and the importance of preserving those large females.

But most baja anglers are the one time fishermen that come down for a once in a lifetime vacation and when something that big latches on there is no chance of release. This is something that can be told and retold back home to friends and neighbors for years to come. Unfortunately their panguero guides are more than willing to aid in the matter and seldom will mention the importance of a 200lb grouper released. There seems to be agreement on releasing only billfish among the pangueros. The rest is kept with the argument that "all is eaten, nothing goes to waste".

Martyman - 2-11-2009 at 12:38 PM

What about puncturing the swim bladder? Does that work?

Paulina - 2-11-2009 at 01:08 PM

Don Alley,

I'm going to order one to keep on the panga.

Thanks for the link,

P<*)))>{

ZThomas - 2-11-2009 at 02:11 PM

According to a CDFG biologist I interviewed a while back, puncturing a bladder protruding from the mouth leads to infection and death more often than not.

And trying to hit a swim bladder through the chest wall with a needle--or, worse yet, a knife--usually results in stabbing some other organ.

Some means of returning the fish to the depths--like the one Hook suggests--is about the only way to give it much of chance of survival. I know the Coastside guys in the Bay Area were working on some kind of device for releasing rockfish that involved lowering them in a milk crate and then somehow releasing them. Obviously, that wouldn't work for an 80-lb. grouper.

At any rate, it's my belief that poking a hole in an internal organ with a dirty knife--as most anglers do--isn't of much use.

If you're really serious about ensuring survival of big grouper types you might hook, you can try cutting the line as soon as you see deep color and can tell what you've got. It may be too late, or it may not. If it is, the fish is just going to float to the surface anyway. If it's not, the fish should turn and kick back down. And a 5/0 hook in the maw of an 80+ lb. grouper is likely a minor annoyance at most.

Don Alley - 2-11-2009 at 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ZThomas
According to a CDFG biologist I interviewed a while back, puncturing a bladder protruding from the mouth leads to infection and death more often than not.

That's the stomach coming out of the mouth. Not supposed to poke that. You can deflate the swim bladder by piercing the skin, under a scale just behind the pectoral fin. That's what the deflating tool I have does, and all that info is in the instructions.

The weight and hook method is a good one, but I wonder how much weight do you need for a 200 lb grouper?

And finally, there is a method for smaller fish where the fish are lowered down in an upside-down weighted plastic crate. Some biologists did some tests with these rigs and got very high survival rates from fish that had bulging eyeballs and stomachs distending out their mouths when brought to the surface.

While I sympathize with some of the SoCal fishermen who believe the marine reserve movement is going too far, I think in Baja, where virtually all fish caught are killed, that these groupers really need areas closed to fishing.

Haven't seen any big grouper lately...the larger yellowtail have been scarce too and a popular target now is very small yellowtail of 2-5 lbs, with a few a bit bigger. "Those little ones are really good eating," people say. :rolleyes:

4baja - 2-11-2009 at 07:23 PM

most of the grouper that we have caught have been in very shallow water(around 20 to 60 feet) and fish up to 50 pounds were you can take out the hook and set them free no problem. most people dont know how to release them properly so i would recomend to keep the fish. if you dont know how then more then likely they will die

Paulina - 2-11-2009 at 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 4baja
most of the grouper that we have caught have been in very shallow water(around 20 to 60 feet) and fish up to 50 pounds were you can take out the hook and set them free no problem. most people dont know how to release them properly so i would recomend to keep the fish. if you dont know how then more then likely they will die

Steve,

What depth at La Guarda did you catch this big boy last summer?

Dern

Skipjack Joe - 2-11-2009 at 09:04 PM

:lol:

A photo before the release?

[Edited on 2-12-2009 by Skipjack Joe]

Timo1 - 2-11-2009 at 09:07 PM

busted!!!!!! :lol:

Pescador - 2-12-2009 at 08:37 AM

Skipjack is very realistic on his assessment of what happens in most of the baja fishery. Those of us who fish here all of the time have enough sense to have something ready to aid in the release of any of the demersal (swim bladder) fish we catch, the local culture thinks it is stupid and non-productive to release good eating fish and that attitude is likely to prevail. It is only recently with lots of information and persuasion that a smattering of Mexican captains are willing to release billfish. The second part of this problem is that a typical guy comes down here to go fishing and is all psyched out to catch a fish and he ends up with a nice grouper and suddenly he has to switch gears and think about releasing this big fish that he just brought up. Maybe I am a little less politically correct or possibly more honest, but there was no way I was going to release my first grouper. After I thought about it, I did come up with a release rig and now I am a seasoned veteran and no longer feel the need to keep any of those bigger fish.
The venting tool, referred to by Don Alley, is controversial at best but is required of all boats fishing in the Gulf of Mexico for release of barotraumatized fish, but the results are questionable due to possible infections and improperly used venting. This method basically consists of poking a large hypodermic needle into the midsection of the fish to let out the gas. Poking the extruding stomach will basically kill the fish within a 24 hour period.
Under consideration this year by the Federal Fisheries Department is a Release Weight that was developed in Australia. The enclosed web site has a video and good information about it's use. It seems to be a much better alternative to venting and Frank Johnson from Mold Craft Lures is working on a similar weight as well as the guys at Do-It-Molds, so I expect we will have something available this year.
4Baja is correct that a lot of Leopard Grouper (commonly known as Cabrilla) are caught at more shallow levels, but the Baja Grouper, Gulf Grouper, Broomtail, Sawtail, and Baqueta are normally caught at 150-400 which means that if the fish is released without venting or weight release, the fish will die.

http://www.recfishwest.org.au/

DianaT - 2-12-2009 at 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador
4Baja is correct that a lot of Leopard Grouper (commonly known as Cabrilla) are caught at more shallow levels,

Are the larger Cabrilla among the fish that many think should be released?

Skipjack Joe - 2-12-2009 at 12:04 PM

I've had trouble finding air sac with the needle in the past by going through the body. In fact, the whole experience was unpleasant (for me and for the fish). I have, however, punctured what I thought was the airsac protruding from the mouth with no problem thinking it worked rather well. Well, now I found out that (a) it's not the air bladder and (b) it almost always kills the fish. I remember fishing from party boats where the deckhand went around and punctured all of the clients fish so that they could fish beyond the limit. This was recommended by the DFG biologists in the 80's. What a waste. But at least it was well intentioned with respect to thoughts about the fishery.

Fortunately I don't enjoy deep water fishing and seldom get any fish with protruding bladders. The exception are those fish Pompano likes so much and I'm going to start keeping those. You sometimes get them when jigging for yellowtail. they're small enough for the pan and better eating than yellowtail anyway.

Don Alley - 2-12-2009 at 12:08 PM

Here's a photo of two release tools. The venting tool was purchased on a recent trip north and I forgot to put it on the boat last trip. It's meant to deflate small fish caught incidentally while making bait, mostly "reds" or "stoplights." These end up as seagull food, and I thought I'd try venting them instead. Rigging a weight and lowering one down while making bait requires that I be more conscientious than I am.

And the weighted hook...well, it's around if I need it, but even people who target fish like baqueta don't get many. And grouper, other than leopard grouper, well I've caught two, one in very shallow water (about 10lbs, released) and the other on a pangero's boat which he ate (about 12-15 lbs).

Should the leopard grouper ("cabrilla") be released? Maybe. I think fisheries should be managed and regulated, but they aren't. Not many release cabrilla, except the small ones (maybe). A released cabrilla could grow to a larger size, and produce many offspring. But more likely it will end up in a net.

Many have commented on the regulation that limits fishermen to two very fast growing and prolific dorado, yet allows five slow growing, slow reproducing grouper. Go figure.

Personally, I'm a little odd in that I eat little fish, and for me killing fish just turns recreation into housework. And I'm tired of hauling around dead fish to gift to neighbors. The fishing sucks right now and one neighbor was just pumping me for fish, and complaining about how much it costs to buy it. Well, duh, of course it's expensive. Fish are scarce here.

release.jpg - 33kB

Does this look about right?

Santiago - 2-12-2009 at 01:19 PM

Made from an old down rigger weight.

[Edited on 2-12-2009 by Santiago]

Release rig 002.jpg - 35kB

Don Alley - 2-12-2009 at 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Santiago
Made from an old down rigger weight.

[Edited on 2-12-2009 by Santiago]

Wow, cool, looks like it could catch another fish on the way back up!

Paulina - 2-12-2009 at 02:35 PM

How long does it usually take for the swim bladder to deflate when a fish is sent down on one of those weighted jigs?

P.<*)))>{

Santiago - 2-12-2009 at 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paulina
How long does it usually take for the swim bladder to deflate when a fish is sent down on one of those weighted jigs?

P.<*)))>{

Take a look at the website Pescador referred to: they have a bunch of videos - and re-catch rates: video shows fish swimming for the bottom as soon as they're released looking pretty normal.

Skipjack Joe - 2-12-2009 at 03:55 PM

Looks good Santiago.

It appears that the sinking weight keeps the hook tight in the fishes mouth. Then at the proper depth you stop releasing line and fish swims off because the hook has no barb.

The only snag (pardon by pun) to the whole idea is that it would take an enormous weight to sink a 200lb grouper back down, keeping the hook taught enough that he wouldn't swim off before the desired depth. No problem for me, though, as I don't expect to ever hook anything that big anyway.

What bothered me were the low recapture numbers. Sure, they're twice of what they were if simply released but still only 10%. You have to wonder if bringing them up to the top and having their intestines protruding through their vents does enough damage that no amount of effort fixes what the rapid change in pressure has done.

[Edited on 2-12-2009 by Skipjack Joe]

Cypress - 2-12-2009 at 04:19 PM

Groupers are sorta weird! They change sex as they grow older and bigger. The young small ones are females and the big older fish are males.

Skipjack Joe - 2-12-2009 at 04:22 PM

We see a lot of that here in San Francisco too.

Paulina - 2-12-2009 at 06:45 PM

Thanks Santiago for pointing them out, I didn't spend enough time on that website the first time around to find those videos. I was surprised to see how quickly the fish swam away.

Pescador - 2-12-2009 at 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
We see a lot of that here in San Francisco too.

And I suppose we are going to get in a lot of trouble if we suggest that we hook them up and sink them to the deep water. Better to just deflate them.

Pescador - 2-12-2009 at 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter

Are the larger Cabrilla among the fish that many think should be released?

A Cabrilla that is ten pounds may well be over 25 years old and while one of the most popular food fishes of Baja Mexico, I think that moderation is certainly called for in the capture of this highly prized fish, but that idea is not going to play well with the most of the people who are fishing the Sea of Cortez, especially the guide and commercial fishermen. I often release a high percentage of the sportfish I catch but this is not a real popular concept so it is pretty much up to the individual fisherman.