BajaNomad - OMG - Anti-aircraft Weapons ?

OMG - Anti-aircraft Weapons ?

CaboRon - 4-15-2009 at 05:40 AM

Mexican detained with anti-aircraft machine gun

AP MEXICO CITY —

Mexican authorities arrested a woman guarding an arsenal that included the first anti-aircraft machine gun seized in Mexico, police said Tuesday, as the army announced the capture of an alleged top drug cartel lieutenant.

The arsenal belonged to a group linked to the powerful Beltran-Leyva drug cartel, federal police coordinator Gen. Rodolfo Cruz said. It also included ammunition, five rifles, a grenade and part of a grenade launcher.

Mexican drug cartels, battling a fierce crackdown by soldiers and federal police, have increasingly gotten hold of higher-powered weapons, even military-grade arms such as grenades and machine guns.

That has left police – particularly state and municipal forces – grossly outgunned, and many officers have quit following attacks.

Cruz said the confiscated .50-caliber, anti-aircraft machine gun can fire 800 rounds per minute and is capable of penetrating armor from more than 5,000 feet (1,500 meters).

Police on a routine patrol Monday found the gun fitted atop an SUV at a house in northern Sonora state.
Authorities did not release any other details about the gun, including its make, where it was manufactured, or where it was sold.

The arrested suspect, Anahi Beltran Cabrera, apparently is not related to the Beltran-Leyva clan, Cruz said.

The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has traced many guns seized at scenes of drug violence in Mexico to U.S. commercial sources. But determining the source of military-grade weapons such as grenades and fully automatic machine guns is more complicated.

The ATF says the grenades are mostly smuggled in through Central America, and have been traced back to the militaries of many countries, from South Korea to Spain and Israel. Some may be leftovers from the Central American civil wars.

Assailants have fired on government aircraft performing anti-drug missions in Mexico in the past, but apparently never with the caliber of weapon found Monday.

In 2006, a helicopter on a federal drug-eradication mission crashed while trying to escape ground fire, and a second helicopter was damaged by gunfire in the Pacific coast state of Guerrero.

Mexico is upgrading its northern and southern border checkpoints in an effort to detect and seize more guns and other contraband, installing equipment that will weigh and photograph each car and truck coming into the country.

President Barack Obama has promised to do more to stop gun trafficking from the United States to Mexico. He has pledged to dispatch nearly 500 more federal agents to the border, along with X-ray machines and drug-sniffing dogs.

Also Tuesday, the Mexican army announced the capture of Ruben Granados Vargas, an alleged lieutenant for the Beltran-Leyva drug cartel in the Pacific coast state of Guerrero.

Gen. Luis Arturo Oliver said soldiers caught Granados Vargas and two other suspects with four rifles and 2.6 pounds (1.2 kilograms) of opium on Monday.

Granados Vargas allegedly ran the cartel's drug planting, harvesting and trafficking operations on the coast west of the resort of Acapulco.

He is implicated in a number of kidnappings and killings in the region, including attacks as part of a turf war with an alleged Sinaloa cartel rival that left 17 people dead last year, organized crime prosecutor Marisela Morales said.

Granados Vargas' wife, sister-in-law and two sons were later killed in retaliation, prosecutors.

Mexico's drug violence has claimed more than 10,650 lives since President Felipe Calderon launched a military-led offensive against trafficking cartels in December 2006.

In March, the government sent thousands more troops to the northern border to quell escalating violence. The government announced Sunday that drug-related homicides fell 26 percent across the country in the first three months of the year, compared to the same period in 2008.
–––

Associated Press writer Mark Stevenson

[Edited on 4-15-2009 by CaboRon]

Udo - 4-15-2009 at 07:20 AM

Muchas Gracias, Ron. Had no idea the cartels could get their mittens on a 50 Cal. My son (in Iraq) has fired a 50 cal. many times and each time he is amazed at the damage it will do.

bajaguy - 4-15-2009 at 07:34 AM

It would be interesting to trace the serial number for the history of this weapon. Wonder if that information will ever be provided?

Terminology

MrBillM - 4-15-2009 at 09:43 AM

That's now known as a .50 Caliber Kinetic Force Instrument.

Bet that didn't come from a Swap Meet.

Bwana_John - 4-15-2009 at 10:09 AM

The pics I saw show a single shot .50 cal rifle a belt of .50 BMG draped over it, NOT Ma Duce (M2 Browning Machine Gun).
Mex gun bust pics

Magic Bee-Bee maby but not the greatest thing for "Anti-Aircraft". :rolleyes:

There is a "Machine Gun" the pic but it is a M1919 .30 cal.

The Model of 1919 Machine Gun would be the weapon of choice if you were trying to shoot down the Red Baron.

Cessnas beware! :lol:

[Edited on 4-15-2009 by Bwana_John]

Bajahowodd - 4-15-2009 at 10:37 AM

Could be it somehow got re-routed from or on its way to Iraq. There's been a few stories lately about people serving over there who have been shipping boxes of cash back home, or departing with suitcases full of it. Overcome by temptation, mostly by a lack of auditing oversight. But a weapon like that one could net someone a huge bonus.

CaboRon - 4-15-2009 at 12:07 PM

Here is the .50cal .....

Here is a video of it on it's Quad base for anti-aircraft use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m225CyqeEAs

There are many different set-ups for the Browning .50 cal.
CaboRon

Bajajack - 4-15-2009 at 12:56 PM

Mexico is missing a ton of both .50 and .30 Cal Full Autos from their own inventory.

I don't hear anything said about that! :fire:

CaboRon - 4-15-2009 at 01:48 PM

The fire power is pretty incredable ....

Here is a video of the M2 in use against Iraqi insurgants ...

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-ysCzSG6IJ3I/50_cal_vs_iraqi...

[Edited on 4-15-2009 by CaboRon]

Bajahowodd - 4-15-2009 at 01:52 PM

Didn't know about the Mexican inventory problem. One thing for sure, that baby won't fit in your carry-on.

vgabndo - 4-16-2009 at 01:39 AM

Good info Ron, but you're caught up in gopspeak. An insurgent, by definition, can only be fighting against his OWN government. Reagan taught us that people who fight against invading armies are called freedom fighters.

CaboRon - 4-16-2009 at 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
Good info Ron, but you're caught up in gopspeak. An insurgent, by definition, can only be fighting against his OWN government. Reagan taught us that people who fight against invading armies are called freedom fighters.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Howard - 4-16-2009 at 07:00 AM

I really do not want to declare myself a hawk or a dove BUT in my wartime experience using a 50 cal. against personnel was out lawed in the Geneva Convention. We were told very clearly that this was not to be done and to be used against non-personnel only. Is this no longer so or are we just to good to follow any rules of engagement that was supposed to "humanize" warfare. Boy, is that an oxymoran if I have ever heard one.

Anyway, if this law still applies I am quite sure with our superior fire power, we can use a more "civilized" weapon.

CaboRon - 4-16-2009 at 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Howard
I really do not want to declare myself a hawk or a dove BUT in my wartime experience using a 50 cal. against personnel was out lawed in the Geneva Convention. We were told very clearly that this was not to be done and to be used against non-personnel only. Is this no longer so or are we just to good to follow any rules of engagement that was supposed to "humanize" warfare. Boy, is that an oxymoran if I have ever heard one.

Anyway, if this law still applies I am quite sure with our superior fire power, we can use a more "civilized" weapon.

Howard,

You really don't think the Cartels will be following the "Rules of Engagement" do you :lol:

CaboRon

Rules of Engagement ?

MrBillM - 4-16-2009 at 09:24 AM

I'm sure it's just an Educational problem. IF the Drug Cartels were aware that they weren't supposed to shoot PEOPLE with the .50 Cal, they would restrict their use to non-personnel targets.

I'd like to see that "supposed" ban verified. It really doesn't pass the smell test. It's OK to use a Hand Grenade against a person, but not a .50 ?

Speaking of the Browning .50, it's the answer to a trivia question since it has remained in use with the armed forces since it's creation with almost no changes to the original design.

On this a.m.'s news, there was a discussion regarding the Mexico Drug and Guns problem with Bob Beckel representing the Lefty viewpoint and Babbling Bob repeated the canard that NINETY-PERCENT of the weapons seized by Mexico come from the United States BUT, he even improved on the Lie by stating that the "Vast Majority of all those weapons have been purchased AFTER the Assault Weapons Ban was revoked so the answer to the problem is pretty clear".

I haven't seen any statistical breakdown on the categories of weapons serial numbers turned over to BATF so it's likely that Bob was simply making that one up.

As the administration's Chief of Staff says "Never waste a crisis".

Bajahowodd - 4-16-2009 at 10:24 AM

I do not recall the source, but I did recently hear that same assertion- that the expiration of the assault weapons ban did coincide with the dramatic increase in the cartels' fire power. Not looking to get into a debate. Just wanted to let you know that Beckel's statement was not new; nor isolated.

Beckel's Belchings

MrBillM - 4-16-2009 at 11:57 AM

Well, since we now KNOW that the Ninety-Percent figure is false information, we also know that Beckel is either a Liar or poorly-informed. Given that, the rest of his statement is subject to doubt.

Cypress - 4-16-2009 at 12:01 PM

beckel? yea, he's just a dim defender.

The WAR !

MrBillM - 4-16-2009 at 12:28 PM

Just heard an Analyst say that our successful war on the Cartels in Colombia should be the blueprint for fighting them in Mexico and we should get President Calderon to agree to the same thing in Mexico.

YEAH, I can just see that. I'm sure Mexico would Happily welcome the level of U.S. Military involvement that we saw in Colombia.

bajaguy - 4-16-2009 at 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM

I haven't seen any statistical breakdown on the categories of weapons serial numbers turned over to BATF so it's likely that Bob was simply making that one up.

Several weeks ago there was a news article where BATF stated they were only receiving serial numbers on 20% of the weapons seized by Mexican authorities......makes you wonder about the other 80% :?:

Dang, I hate it when that happens

[Edited on 4-16-2009 by bajaguy]

CaboRon - 4-16-2009 at 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Just heard an Analyst say that our successful war on the Cartels in Colombia should be the blueprint for fighting them in Mexico and we should get President Calderon to agree to the same thing in Mexico.

YEAH, I can just see that. I'm sure Mexico would Happily welcome the level of U.S. Military involvement that we saw in Colombia.

Mexican's pride goeth before the fall :lol:

Gadget - 4-16-2009 at 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Could be it somehow got re-routed from or on its way to Iraq. There's been a few stories lately about people serving over there who have been shipping boxes of cash back home, or departing with suitcases full of it. Overcome by temptation, mostly by a lack of auditing oversight. But a weapon like that one could net someone a huge bonus.

Got any actual facts to back this acusation up?

[Edited on 4-16-2009 by Gadget]

Gadget - 4-16-2009 at 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
Mexican detained with anti-aircraft machine gun

AP MEXICO CITY —

President Barack Obama has promised to do more to stop gun trafficking from the United States to Mexico. He has pledged to dispatch nearly 500 more federal agents to the border, along with X-ray machines and drug-sniffing dogs.

Associated Press writer Mark Stevenson

[Edited on 4-15-2009 by CaboRon]

OK, why am I confused about this statement?
Could Obama be confused as to which way the supposed weapons flow is going?
Along with the 500 agents, will we be building kiosks to house the X-ray machines and turnstiles for the agents to check vehicles going into Mexica with the smuggled weapons that we never here anything about them being missing in our media?
How will drug sniffing dogs help this alleged problem? Do weapons destined for cartel usage have a pre-drug dealer usage odor added to them at the factory, much like how we odorize LPG or Natural gas?

woody with a view - 4-16-2009 at 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gadget

Quote:

welcome to the new world order! :no:

CaboRon - 4-16-2009 at 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gadget

Quote:

As to the dogs .... drug dogs are not bomb dogs ....

Different training and competele different alert patterns...

Dogs can be trained to sniff out many different things such as cordite or even some diseases .....

However they have to specialize in one area or another ...

CaboRon

Howard - 4-16-2009 at 03:28 PM

Ron

Naturally, the cartel or most "bad guys" do not follow any rules set by society. I was referring to the video that shows what appears to be US forces allegedly using a .50 cal. to blow away people on the ground. I assume that they were bad people but a .50 cal.? What, a 30 caliber would not work. I am saying this mostly with tongue in cheek but we might as well follow the rules when we can. The Geneva Convention was written for the good people as well as the bad people.

BajaNomad - 4-16-2009 at 04:02 PM

Another AP photo from the story in Sonora - wasn't in the article linked to earlier in the thread:

aptopix_lt_mexico_guns_mxev101b.jpg - 32kB

aptopix_lt_mexico_guns_mxev101b.jpg - 32kB

woody with a view - 4-16-2009 at 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Howard
Ron

Naturally, the cartel or most "bad guys" do not follow any rules set by society. I was referring to the video that shows what appears to be US forces allegedly using a .50 cal. to blow away people on the ground. I assume that they were bad people but a .50 cal.? What, a 30 caliber would not work. I am saying this mostly with tongue in cheek but we might as well follow the rules when we can. The Geneva Convention was written for the good people as well as the bad people.

BIGGER is always better!!!!!!

It's His Story and He's Sticking to it.

MrBillM - 4-16-2009 at 04:48 PM

Watching the High(Low ?)Lights from Obarama's Mexico speech, he said that "NINETY-PERCENT of the weapons seized by Mexico come from the United States, MOSTLY from the Gun Stores that line our border". adding that it has come about as a result of ending the Assault Weapons ban in 2004.

LIAR, LIAR, Wish you were on Fire.

Let's see the BATF breakdown on the categories of weapons traced and when they were purchased.

Slim chance of that. We're simply being setup for a new round of Gun Control attempts. Expect sales and prices to continue spiraling upwards.

BTW, WHAT is the difference between a fatal shot from a .50 and a .30 ? Other than the increased probability of a good kill ? And, after all, isn't that the purpose for shooting the bad guys ?

Bajahowodd - 4-16-2009 at 05:00 PM

Take it to off-topic, Atilla.

CaboRon - 4-16-2009 at 05:09 PM

Quote:

Howard,

They wanted to take out those motorized vehicles also,

And it did a mighty fine job of that ....

CaboRon

The HUN

MrBillM - 4-16-2009 at 05:26 PM

Attila ? I'll take that as a compliment, although I haven't sacked any countrysides, raped or pillaged in my time. The opportunity just never came up.

Attila tends to be misunderstood. He was simply good at his job and no different in his methods than any other ruler of his time. I think there is a prejudice among Western Scholars who can look upon Julius Caesar, Vasco da Gama and others in a much more favorable light than good old Attila.

Howard - 4-16-2009 at 05:31 PM

Ron, it was a splendid job. For a brief moment I lost control and didn't mind paying my taxes to support the war. Like I said, just a nanu moment than got all peeed off again on the way our taxes our spent. But that is a story for another time.

Now keep in mind if we ever meet, it was just an observation, not a personal opinion about using the 50 cal., I was not saying it was unethical because of the damage that it does! Damn, they did demolish those "bad guys" and trucks in a quick and orderly manner!I'm not sure if I should feel proud or ashamed but leaning to the proud side of the fence.

Gadget - 4-17-2009 at 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon

Quote:

Originally posted by Gadget

Quote:

Thanks for the clairification CR, but I am fully aware of the differences.
Is President Obama?
He should say what he means, unless of course he is just reading a script that was poorly written and if the TP goes out he wouldn't even know where he was.
Beware of my Laguna Salada type sence of humor when reading many of my posts :lol:

The Ninety-Percent Solution

MrBillM - 4-17-2009 at 04:43 PM

It was reported today that, although there had been numerous requests to the White House for a clarification of Obarama's Ninety-Percent comment, the White House response had been "No Comment".

Yeah, what can they say ?