BajaNomad

Pilots and boaters Beware!

airmech - 6-8-2009 at 09:32 PM

This is that latest with flying and I say boaters too cuz your next.
An illegal armed search by CBP of an airplane trying to depart from Long Beach airport. 3 more incidents have been reported, 2 from John Wayne. If you don't like the Mexicans showing up with M16s wait till you hear this!

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/PilotProtestsCustomsChe...

make sure you listen to the pod cast.

Hook - 6-8-2009 at 09:39 PM

Welcome to the world since 9/11/2001.

Exactly what made this "illegal"? Nice try with alarming the boating community, too, but you cost yourself credibility trying that, IMO. Besides, we have been boarded off SD for some time now.

I am predicting there is something in the background of one of his passengers that precipitated this.

Either that, or Tommy Lee Jones is in charge of the SoCal office of the CBP.

[Edited on 6-9-2009 by Hook]

DavidT - 6-8-2009 at 09:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by airmech
I say boaters too cuz your next.


Next? Boats have been boarded by the Coast Guard at any time for any reason for more then a year now.:rolleyes:

BajaGringo - 6-8-2009 at 09:48 PM

Hook, this is going on more and more by the CBP. I was subjected to something similar a few months ago on the highway near San Clemente. You should be alarmed.

This is not just about inspections but the methods they use. These guys are putting loaded guns in your face with no probable cause. All in the name of routine inspections? I am hearing more and more of these cases and it seems they are escalating their tactics.

Sorry, but this is not right and unless you have been the one in that position I doubt you can really understand how wrong this all feels...




[Edited on 6-9-2009 by BajaGringo]

Hook - 6-8-2009 at 09:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Hook, this is going on more and more by the CBP. I was subjected to something similar a few months ago on the highway near San Clemente. You should be alarmed.

This is not just about inspections but the methods they use. These guys are putting loaded guns in your face with no probable cause. All in the name of routine inspections?

Sorry, but this is not right and unless you have been the one in that position I doubt you can really understand how wrong this all feels...



[Edited on 6-9-2009 by BajaGringo]


No one on this board has any idea if there was probably cause or not.

I'll wait till I see what the CBP says before I pass judgement. In the meantime, accusations of "brutality" and "illegality" are premature and fomentary, if such a word exists.

ACtually, I can say right now that this doesn't pass muster with the term brutality, IMO.

[Edited on 6-9-2009 by Hook]

illegal

airmech - 6-8-2009 at 09:58 PM

What made this illegal? Last I heard officials needed probable cause to search without a warrant. I don't even get searched like that when I land in Mexico. Yes they greet you with M16s but not pointed at you.

Also for you pilots. When I used the eAPIS (before it was mandatory) trying it out for the first time. I filed from MMPE to Calexico. I never received a conformation email but called direct to Calexico and gave them notice. When I arrived they didn't have me in the computer from the eAPIS. I just thought it was a glitch.

Talked to a friend that flew down last week and he said the exact same thing happened to him.

Credibility? What makes you credible? I'm just forwarding the current news.

David K - 6-8-2009 at 10:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
...

I am predicting there is something in the background of one of his passengers that precipitated this. ...



I agree with this and that they were a bit sensitive to the search... Perhaps a plane N number was close to a known mafia plane number?

airmech - 6-8-2009 at 10:15 PM

david k,
How do you do that quote thing? Anyways, I would agree with you except that this guy has a house in Loreto and fly's down all the time. And maybe it is exaggerated for all I know. But. . . I have a truck in Bay of LA and fly down several times a year also and I can't imagine how I would feel if I pulled my plane out of my hanger, didn't even start it, and was surrounded by CBP with guns drawn. Let alone if I had passengers all loaded in and ready to go. Even if the CBP made a mistake with a wrong N number they could have handled it better than that.

I don't agree that "saying" you are leaving the country is "probable cause" to search your vehicle and all your possessions.

David K - 6-8-2009 at 10:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by airmech
david k,
How do you do that quote thing? Anyways, I would agree with you except that this guy has a house in Loreto and fly's down all the time. And maybe it is exaggerated for all I know. But. . . I have a truck in Bay of LA and fly down several times a year also and I can't imagine how I would feel if I pulled my plane out of my hanger, didn't even start it, and was surrounded by CBP with guns drawn. Let alone if I had passengers all loaded in and ready to go. Even if the CBP made a mistake with a wrong N number they could have handled it better than that.

I don't agree that "saying" you are leaving the country is "probable cause" to search your vehicle and all your possessions.


Instead of pushing the Post Reply button or using Quick Reply, you click on the 'Quote' button at the top of whose post you want to quote... see it?

I don't think he was the cause for the search. He had passengers, so one of them had an alert flag go up on the fed's computer from when he did the pre-filing of the passenger list, perhaps?

It cost him an hour and some nerves, but he had his trip in the end and didn't loose his plane. It is not a lot different than going to secondry for a full inspection... which pilots don't usually get since they don't drive across the border.

It's not a nice thing, but unless it happens everytime you guys fly to Baja... maybe just call it new occaisional procedure to go with the new administration?

Hook - 6-8-2009 at 10:40 PM

Nothing in particular makes me credible..............especially my penchant for posting on the Nomad board.

What makes you incredible is your lack of knowledge about the existing situation with boaters and your attempt to rope them into this situation.

You still have no idea whether probably cause existed. Knowing the background of the pilot and his habits doesnt answer that. In this day and age, it could be something as simple as a questionable person who hacked into his computer at home and it was traced to a red flagged computer somewhere else.

Does the FAA/CBP require that all passengers aboard be identified in an eAPIS? If so, then maybe one of the passengers raised a red flag.

Or, maybe there is a bug in the eAPIS procedure?

I would still rather have our law enforcement err on the side of caution, given the erring we saw on the side of laziness immediately before 9/11.

Think about it................drug cartels are employing military style weapons that are occasionally confiscated and get traced back to sources in the US. Ex military guy who makes frequent trips to Mexico in his own plane gets rousted. Is this really that far out in left field? If he's carrying weapons, he may be locked and loaded. Don't police officers approach cars with guns drawn when there is probable cause for persons packing?

Your hysteria is premature. And your handwringing over the loss of freedom in Amerika is at least 10 years too late.

airmech - 6-8-2009 at 10:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by airmech
david k,
How do you do that quote thing? Anyways, I would agree with you except that this guy has a house in Loreto and fly's down all the time. And maybe it is exaggerated for all I know. But. . . I have a truck in Bay of LA and fly down several times a year also and I can't imagine how I would feel if I pulled my plane out of my hanger, didn't even start it, and was surrounded by CBP with guns drawn. Let alone if I had passengers all loaded in and ready to go. Even if the CBP made a mistake with a wrong N number they could have handled it better than that.

I don't agree that "saying" you are leaving the country is "probable cause" to search your vehicle and all your possessions.


Instead of pushing the Post Reply button or using Quick Reply, you click on the 'Quote' button at the top of whose post you want to quote... see it?

I don't think he was the cause for the search. He had passengers, so one of them had an alert flag go up on the fed's computer from when he did the pre-filing of the passenger list, perhaps?

It cost him an hour and some nerves, but he had his trip in the end and didn't loose his plane. It is not a lot different than going to secondry for a full inspection... which pilots don't usually get since they don't drive across the border.

It's not a nice thing, but unless it happens everytime you guys fly to Baja... maybe just call it new occaisional procedure to go with the new administration?


got it thanks.

I still have to disagree with you only because he filed his eAPIS notice with his passenger list 2 days in advance and CBP gave him permission to leave. CBP had plenty of time to talk with him in a more professional way.
I also would be doing a lot less whining if I believed that all this hoop jumping was actually doing some good in catching the bad guys but I don't believe its the US citizens going to Mexico that are causing issues.

capt. mike - 6-9-2009 at 06:24 AM

listen to the pod cast link on AvWeb. it was real and way out of line.
and Nappy Napolitano has said, " if the pilot community is having problems with the the new DHS and CBP procedures....wait till the boaters see what's coming..."

posted on BBP.

David - for as much as you bloviate on right wing freedoms....i can't believe your complacency over this eroding of fundamental rights against unreasonable search and seizure. think jackboots cause it's coming.

capt. mike - 6-9-2009 at 06:29 AM

"In an interview Secretary Napolitano, when told about the outrage by GA pilots about Home Security actions said that will be nothing compared to the outrage by the boaters. So for those of us who also take boats into Canada etc the Department is working on new rules for boaters. There goes a bit more freedom, where will it end."

from BBP

mtgoat666 - 6-9-2009 at 07:11 AM

Many of you people complaining about loss of freedom also voted for GWB and supported the primarily GOP led efforts to expand the size, scope and powers of the boder patrol and customs.

Many of you asked for it, now you got it. You can't be screaming "build the wall" and then complain when it inconveniences you.

btw, CG thugs have been boarding/inspecting boats for years.

woody with a view - 6-9-2009 at 07:52 AM

where's the fence?

David K - 6-9-2009 at 09:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Many of you people complaining about loss of freedom also voted for GWB and supported the primarily GOP led efforts to expand the size, scope and powers of the boder patrol and customs.

Many of you asked for it, now you got it. You can't be screaming "build the wall" and then complain when it inconveniences you.

btw, CG thugs have been boarding/inspecting boats for years.


You can't let it go, can you? We lost no freedoms under GWB, his actions prevented another attack. There is a new president now (for almost 6 months, in fact), time to make him responsible for all the unprofessional behavior going on and true lack of freedoms coming.

LancairDriver - 6-9-2009 at 09:40 AM

As usual, many are sounding off without having any comprehension of the situation that exists or what is coming. As far as boaters are concerned, they will soon be subject to the same restrictions as aircraft and will have to get permission and approval for the boat, crew and passengers to leave or enter the US just as aircraft do now under eapis. For those who think a simple boarding by the Coast Guard compares- get your head out of your burro. Read what Capt. Mike posted about Janet Napolitano's statement about what boaters have coming. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this extend to those of you who think secondary is a big deal. How many in secondary get guns pointed in their faces? How long will it be before you climb into your Baja rig to head across the border before you will have to comply with the same restrictions?
Instead of trashing the ones who are warning of what is coming, try making an effort to be more informed.

Gadget - 6-9-2009 at 10:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Many of you people complaining about loss of freedom also voted for GWB and supported the primarily GOP led efforts to expand the size, scope and powers of the boder patrol and customs.

Many of you asked for it, now you got it. You can't be screaming "build the wall" and then complain when it inconveniences you.

btw, CG thugs have been boarding/inspecting boats for years.


Awwwe come on mt, when you gonna let it go.
Every bunch of crap in this country cannot be blamed on GWB.
Don't you get that you and all your media pals just point the finger at how pathetic and in effectual BO is if all any of you can do is look backwards.
Do something positive for this country besides saddeling us with more debt than ALL OTHER PRESIDENCIES COMBINDED, including GWB. Why don't you ever claim that stat???
As an example: BO quote, we have created 160k new jobs in the first 100 days of this presidency. He failed to mention 80% of them were government positions. Also that 1.6 million jobs were lost IN his first 100 days, that's 16k a day.
:no::no::no::no::no::no:

On another note equally as disturbing, we were stopped by customs agents at the Tecate border crossing this last weekend.
We were asked:
Where are you coming from?
How much money are each of you carrying?
Do you have any drugs, ammo, firearms?
This was on the US side, leaving My country into mexico by US customs agents. ????
Our major concern, with exception to the 3rd question which was easy (we picked a bunch up and were just taking them back to Mex), is there a wrong answer to the first 2?
I mean, could we be coming from somewhere in our own FREE country that would be an issue?
Does the BO admin maybe want to tax us some more before we go spend our cash in Mex?
Yep mt, I fear we will have much to look back at after we are done with BO.
I just hope it's not while we are bent over in a rice paddy some where while slaveing for dear pres BO, while you watch from the back of a stake bed truck.
That's not what you want for your USofA brothers and sisters, is it?

woody with a view - 6-9-2009 at 10:13 AM

if i had nothing to hide (pick your friends well, my friend!) and i experienced what you did i might be surprised, but i would also be proud that my govt is finally getting serious. did they slap you around, throw you on the ground? or did they come at you defensively until they were sure no threat existed?

the days of beaver cleaver in mayberry, rfd are over.

where's the fence???

mtgoat666 - 6-9-2009 at 10:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
We lost no freedoms under GWB, his actions prevented another attack. There is a new president now (for almost 6 months, in fact), time to make him responsible for all the unprofessional behavior going on and true lack of freedoms coming.


:lol:
dk, you are a funny guy :lol:
:lol:

(you weren't serious, were you? :?:

mtgoat666 - 6-9-2009 at 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Gadget
Every bunch of crap in this country cannot be blamed on GWB.


This particular crap can.
Quote:
Originally posted by Gadget
saddeling us with more debt than ALL OTHER PRESIDENCIES COMBINDED, including GWB. Why don't you ever claim that stat???


you conveniently look past why BO needed to bail out finanacial and auto industries, because of actions that occurred in prior decade, and near universal agreement that bailouts were needed to prevent colapse of economy. don't blame it on BO.

you need to learn how to say: Yes We Can!

Suggestion

bajaguy - 6-9-2009 at 10:30 AM

In my experiences, I have found that a rational, calm written record of the events with all of the names, dates, times and places sent to your US Senator and members of the US House of Representatives usually generates results.........

If not settled to your satisfaction, it is usually a wake up call to the Agency and has a great trickle down effect for those involved in the agencies chain of command.

Additionally, we should remember that there are usually more than two sides to every story, and we are only getting one side of this "incident"..........

I listened to the podcast three times and the one thing that stood out was the CBP person in charge stated that "your (aircraft) tail number came up" (in the automated system???)......

Possibly the aircraft was put (rightly or wrongly - is that a word???) on a "watch list" due to the frequent trips or destinations in Baja................

[Edited on 6-9-2009 by bajaguy]

djh - 6-9-2009 at 10:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K

You can't let it go, can you? We lost no freedoms under GWB


Awwww..... C'mon, David.... While I ALWAYS appreciate the assistance and goodwill you bring to Nomads, I gotta say ~ that comment strays a bit from reality.

mtgoat666 - 6-9-2009 at 10:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by woody in ob
the days of beaver cleaver in mayberry, rfd are over.

where's the fence???


Woody, you are confused. Beaver lived in Mayfield. Opie lived in Mayberry.

capt. mike - 6-9-2009 at 11:09 AM

I can hear Bin Ladin laughing from his cave half way around the world.

from a friend.

"As most of you know I fly to and from Mexico several times a year for
pleasure generally, and some times professionally.
and yes I do obtain a temporary work visa.

The new system enacted by our guvment (eAPIS) now requires a special
form to be emailed and sent to our guvment prior to leaving or arriving
the new USSA.... (our Grand Fathers called it the USA). The attached
letter shows just how far we have moved to the left in giving up our
freedoms due in part to the Middle eastern extremists. (Politically
polite for once) :) The eAPIS has its flaws that I am sure will be
worked out in time, but these abuses in our own country to our citizens
is ludicrous. The Author of the attached letter is a friend, and I
assure you that he is not exaggerating. He has given me permission to
forward his letter on to my network of flying folks. Please note all
the government officials that are CC'd in his letter.

As we pilots are fed up with these abuses the guvment is jamming down
our throats, we will stop flying out of the country for pleasure. The
people that will be hurt the most are the citizens of the small villages
and towns of MX that relies on our generosity and often times medical
supplies and medical attention they recive from the numerous volunteers
that do travel south. These Mexicans and Mexican businesses rely on
the trickle down economy theory, and many of us enjoy the different life
style that awaits us in a foreign country.

Back country flying in MX was alive and well until just the past few
years. Remember how content the frogs were as they sat in the nice pot
of warm water. Pretty soon, my comrade, we will all be cooked. What
will be the next freedom of ours to be tossed aside???? "

i think well said.

Wiles - 6-9-2009 at 11:19 AM

I listened to the podcast. Found it interesting when the pilot referred to his passengers as customers and then corrected(?) himself.

capt. mike - 6-9-2009 at 11:28 AM

very likely they were his business customers so force of habit in phrasing.
doesn't mean he was doing "charter" work. Besides, part 135 infractions are the domain of FAA not CBP who have no basis in investigating those.

lots of guys do travel fishing junkets for their best customers and write off the trip as business entertainment - perfectly legal under FARs and IRS rules.
i have taken my subs to baja several times. they love it and i get a trip partially subsidized courtesy of Uncle.

you'd be surprized over the number of "2nd" homes in mexico that are written off 100% as business expense solely for T and E expense, all legitimately done.

woody with a view - 6-9-2009 at 11:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by woody in ob
the days of beaver cleaver in mayberry, rfd are over.

where's the fence???


Woody, you are confused. Beaver lived in Mayfield. Opie lived in Mayberry.


actually, i was generalizing about a long gone era.....

Gadget - 6-9-2009 at 11:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by woody in ob
if i had nothing to hide (pick your friends well, my friend!) and i experienced what you did i might be surprised, but i would also be proud that my govt is finally getting serious. did they slap you around, throw you on the ground? or did they come at you defensively until they were sure no threat existed?

the days of beaver cleaver in mayberry, rfd are over.

where's the fence???


JMO Woody, but the 3 of us in the truck are as all American as you get.
And no there was no roughing up, although the guy asking the question did have an attitude and although he wasn't dark skinned, he did have a hispanic accent.
It just rubbed us all the wrong way as to if there was some location in my City that we may have been from that was a wrong answer.
I think we are still innocent until proven otherwise.

Anti-Law Enforcement crowd -- part of the problem

Lee - 6-9-2009 at 12:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
btw, CG thugs have been boarding/inspecting boats for years.


Thugs? Law enforcement doing their JOBS and they don't have to say ''please''.

Get over it.

Probable cause? Defined by Nomads, maybe?

Law enforcement defines Probable Cause. Next question?

Don't like the laws in the US, LEAVE! Try the Middle East.

woody with a view - 6-9-2009 at 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Gadget
Quote:
Originally posted by woody in ob
if i had nothing to hide (pick your friends well, my friend!) and i experienced what you did i might be surprised, but i would also be proud that my govt is finally getting serious. did they slap you around, throw you on the ground? or did they come at you defensively until they were sure no threat existed?

the days of beaver cleaver in mayberry, rfd are over.

where's the fence???


JMO Woody, but the 3 of us in the truck are as all American as you get.
And no there was no roughing up, although the guy asking the question did have an attitude and although he wasn't dark skinned, he did have a hispanic accent.
It just rubbed us all the wrong way as to if there was some location in my City that we may have been from that was a wrong answer.
I think we are still innocent until proven otherwise.


i'm not trying to be confrontational, either. but you were asked questions and were sent on your way. sounds like you're innocent. are the cops not allowed to invade personal space now? where does personal space begin?

Gadget - 6-9-2009 at 01:19 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by Gadget
saddeling us with more debt than ALL OTHER PRESIDENCIES COMBINDED, including GWB. Why don't you ever claim that stat???


you conveniently look past why BO needed to bail out finanacial and auto industries, because of actions that occurred in prior decade, and near universal agreement that bailouts were needed to prevent colapse of economy. don't blame it on BO.

you need to learn how to say: Yes We Can!


Oh no mt, I do not for any reason look past the bail outs. The biggest grab of private citizen funds in the history of the USA, surpassing FDRs mandate for every citizen to turn in all but $100 of their gold or face $10,000 fine or 10 years in prison on April 1 of 1933, to empliment the FDIC and Federal Reserve Bank pales in comparison to what BO and the Dems have done.
Don't think for a minute that any of us who can research facts misses that Barney Frank ( a slobbering Dem )and his pals pushed the sub prime mortgage nightmare on the Banks because they think everyone should own a home regardless of ability to pay. Well as you well know mt, it crippled FANNY and FREDY and they collapsed. It is only because of the medias bias and half the population had their heads up their butts that the real culprits got away scott free, then doled out millions of our hard earned dollars to any burro with their hand out, most of which were big shot campaign contributors to the culprits. I know you jump for joy that you all got away with blameing this on GWB. Honestly, my hats off to all of you. The campaign was a master piece of smoke and mirrors like no other in our history. BO takes credit for all this bail out BS but when any of it goes amiss he blames it on the past. That's pretty damn convienient.

Perhaps you have no children mt. I look past myself to my Son, neices, nephews, and future grand children who will be saddled with this debt for their entire lifetimes. This is what really makes me angry. This has gone down on my watch, my generation is in power now for the most part.
Also mt, don't think I am happy with everything GWB did. I think his admin did a terrible job on many levels, just like all politicians do, they are all human, right mt? Not messianic, right mt? you don't believe in ANY savior if I'm not mistaken.

I challenge you mt to tell us how you will be better off under the current plan as it unfolds, other than have a bigger government t_t to feed you.

Jesus said to render unto Ceasar what is do him. Whether you beleive in Jesus or not, the concept is sound.
Give to your government what is do them if they are worthy to be given to.
I have no problem paying my fair share so my governors can provide for safety, infrastructure and services for society.
Other than that, I want them to be invisable.
I will persue life, liberty and happiness on my terms and face all my mistakes myself without asking for any bail out from Uncle Sam.
YOU?

Yes we can???:lol::lol::lol:
mt, come on, its really "Yes you can for us". Any good socialist would be ashamed of you if you really think there is a "we" in what is going on.

Gadget - 6-9-2009 at 01:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by woody in ob
Quote:
Originally posted by Gadget
Quote:
Originally posted by woody in ob
if i had nothing to hide (pick your friends well, my friend!) and i experienced what you did i might be surprised, but i would also be proud that my govt is finally getting serious. did they slap you around, throw you on the ground? or did they come at you defensively until they were sure no threat existed?

the days of beaver cleaver in mayberry, rfd are over.

where's the fence???


JMO Woody, but the 3 of us in the truck are as all American as you get.
And no there was no roughing up, although the guy asking the question did have an attitude and although he wasn't dark skinned, he did have a hispanic accent.
It just rubbed us all the wrong way as to if there was some location in my City that we may have been from that was a wrong answer.
I think we are still innocent until proven otherwise.


i'm not trying to be confrontational, either. but you were asked questions and were sent on your way. sounds like you're innocent. are the cops not allowed to invade personal space now? where does personal space begin?


Yeah Woody, point taken. It's been 30 years or so since my last traffic stop here in the US. I don't remember the question scenario, but I guess where are you coming from could be a reasonable inquiry.
I do want them to do their job, no doubt there. Even more so to those who should be asked tough questions.

LancairDriver - 6-9-2009 at 01:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lee
Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
btw, CG thugs have been boarding/inspecting boats for years.


Thugs? Law enforcement doing their JOBS and they don't have to say ''please''.

Get over it.

Probable cause? Defined by Nomads, maybe?

Law enforcement defines Probable Cause. Next question?

Don't like the laws in the US, LEAVE! Try the Middle East.

They better learn to say please. They are tax dollar parasites and they work for us. When will you learn to quit bowing to these lowlifes? Would you have been more comfortable in N-zi Germany when Hitler was taking over with that attitude? Of course there are many in law enforcement who treat the public with the respect they are entitled to, and it is a shame law enforcement has been infiltrated by these bottom feeders. Probably a better psychological screening is in order before employment. It takes awhile but the American public will change this sad state of affairs eventually.

David K - 6-9-2009 at 01:28 PM

Go go Gadget, go! :bounce:

Skeet/Loreto - 6-9-2009 at 03:32 PM

Please everyone relax, learn the New Rules and i feel sure you will be able to do the same thing that you have been doing in the past.

There is a "New Move" in the Inspection and Location of Boats/Planes that have been a source of Trouble for the Police in the past.

This effort to protect the Citzens of the United States will be O.K>

woody with a view - 6-9-2009 at 03:52 PM

i'm no BIG fan of the cops.

i just feel that if they have to deal will narco punks, gun runners, child rapists and all the rest of the slime in the sleeze pond that you should be GLAD someone has signed up for the job.

edit: and if you get do deal with a guy who's been in the deep end for awhile, just smile and thank him when he's done questioning you. at least in this country they still let you go on your way, if you're innocent......

[Edited on 6-9-2009 by woody in ob]

arrowhead - 6-9-2009 at 06:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by airmech
What made this illegal? Last I heard officials needed probable cause to search without a warrant.


Not when you say you are crossing the border, such as the pilot did by filing the border crossing documents. The law is different. They don't need any cause to search you. Even if they don't know you are crossing the border and you are in a border area, they only need "reasonable suspicion" to stop you and search you. No use complaining about it, this has already been up to the Supreme Court and the tactics have been upheld.

p.s. CPB also has the right to confiscate your computer, cell phone, etc. to exam them for as long as they want to.

airmech - 6-9-2009 at 07:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Quote:
Originally posted by airmech
What made this illegal? Last I heard officials needed probable cause to search without a warrant.


Not when you say you are crossing the border, such as the pilot did by filing the border crossing documents. The law is different. They don't need any cause to search you. Even if they don't know you are crossing the border and you are in a border area, they only need "reasonable suspicion" to stop you and search you. No use complaining about it, this has already been up to the Supreme Court and the tactics have been upheld.

p.s. CPB also has the right to confiscate your computer, cell phone, etc. to exam them for as long as they want to.


A "random search" is not "reasonable suspicion" either.

Besides they were leaving the US for Mexico. I have never been stopped at the border by the US officials on the US side when driving into mexico, have you? How cares if the "terrorists" are leaving the US and going to mexico, let them go.

mulegemichael - 6-9-2009 at 07:58 PM

we lost no freedoms under GWB...what the f...???i cannot believe you can honestly say that, david...are you hallucinating to that degree?..o my gawd!...this is very scary..

airmech - 6-9-2009 at 08:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by airmech
Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Quote:
Originally posted by airmech
What made this illegal? Last I heard officials needed probable cause to search without a warrant.


Not when you say you are crossing the border, such as the pilot did by filing the border crossing documents. The law is different. They don't need any cause to search you. Even if they don't know you are crossing the border and you are in a border area, they only need "reasonable suspicion" to stop you and search you. No use complaining about it, this has already been up to the Supreme Court and the tactics have been upheld.

p.s. CPB also has the right to confiscate your computer, cell phone, etc. to exam them for as long as they want to.



Also there is a federal regulation 14 CFR 91.11 the prohibits anyone from interfering with a crew member in the operation of an aircraft. The FAA says if you enter an aircraft with the intention of flying it you are operating it. This guy was in his aircraft with that intention doing a checklist when the CBP ordered him out of the airplane for a "random check"

CaboRon - 6-9-2009 at 08:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mulegemichael
we lost no freedoms under GWB...what the f...???i cannot believe you can honestly say that, david...are you hallucinating to that degree?..o my gawd!...this is very scary..


I have to agree that David appears certifiable :lol:

David K - 6-9-2009 at 11:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mulegemichael
we lost no freedoms under GWB...what the f...???i cannot believe you can honestly say that, david...are you hallucinating to that degree?..o my gawd!...this is very scary..


Name 'em... I cannot think of any that I have lost. However, I am alive and I thank GWB and our troops for that!

Bajaboy - 6-9-2009 at 11:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by mulegemichael
we lost no freedoms under GWB...what the f...???i cannot believe you can honestly say that, david...are you hallucinating to that degree?..o my gawd!...this is very scary..


Name 'em... I cannot think of any that I have lost. However, I am alive and I thank GWB and our troops for that!


um...illegal wiretaps....let's see...xray scans at the airports....hmmm.....9/11 happened on GWB's watch....not blaming him but if you're saying you're safer because of him....I'll beg to differ....

David K - 6-9-2009 at 11:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by mulegemichael
we lost no freedoms under GWB...what the f...???i cannot believe you can honestly say that, david...are you hallucinating to that degree?..o my gawd!...this is very scary..


Name 'em... I cannot think of any that I have lost. However, I am alive and I thank GWB and our troops for that!


um...illegal wiretaps....let's see...xray scans at the airports....hmmm.....9/11 happened on GWB's watch....not blaming him but if you're saying you're safer because of him....I'll beg to differ....



I was asking Mulege Mike that question, but Zac my reply is the increasing of security measures was to save us from a repeat of 9-11.

How is an X-ray scan a freedom that you lost???

My phone wasn't wiretapped because I don't make international calls to known terrorists... was yours? Is that a "freedom" that you lost even if your were listened to talking to terrorists?

9-11 wasn't an overnight planned event, it took years of allowing them to go unpunished... years before W. took over... Do you remember the Cole, the first Twin Tower bombing, the Kenya attacks... Clinton was even offered Bin Ladden on a silver platter and he didn't do ANYTHING... Over 3,000 civilians are dead from the weakness of that administration.

The one and only purpose of our federal government is to protect us from force or fraud, per our constitution. We can do all else on local levels.

capt. mike - 6-10-2009 at 05:59 AM

there is a fair and prudent balance somewhere between safety and freedoms.

the shift has gone aways from freedoms in support of increased safety.

i'd rather balance towards freedom and manage safety as reasonably as can be expected under most situations without going overboard.

the Eastern Bloc countries were all pretty safe in their bau houses.....

k-rico - 6-10-2009 at 06:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by airmech
I have never been stopped at the border by the US officials on the US side when driving into mexico, have you?


Yes, at San Ysidro, back in April. US officials were stopping all cars just before entering Mexico and asking questions. Some cars were getting searched. They asked me how much money I had with me. The entrance to the border was narrowed to fewer lanes to make room for secondary searches and southbound traffic was really backing up on the Interstate.

There were a couple cars in secondary getting taken apart.

It hasn't happened since.

k-rico - 6-10-2009 at 06:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by airmech
This is that latest with flying and I say boaters too cuz your next.
An illegal armed search by CBP of an airplane trying to depart from Long Beach airport. 3 more incidents have been reported, 2 from John Wayne. If you don't like the Mexicans showing up with M16s wait till you hear this!

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/PilotProtestsCustomsChe...

make sure you listen to the pod cast.


I suspect the officials were acting upon some information that money/weapons/fugitives or? were headed to Mexico by private aircraft.

I agree with the notion that Americans demanded tighter borders and now they're getting them. Let's hope all the measures taken, walls, strict ID requirements, searches, etc. accomplish something other than hassling the 99.99% of us that aren't breaking any laws.

k-rico - 6-10-2009 at 07:07 AM

I just listened to the podcast and I don't understand the outrage being expressed here.

The cops had their guns drawn? Well, they had no way of knowing what the occupants of the plane would do. They were playing it safe.

They were screaming? Perhaps to make sure everyone heard them and understood.

I don't buy their explanation that it was a random check. What else are they going to say? It would be dumb for them to let out that they had some sort of information that led to the search, especially since the explanation would end up on an Internet podcast!

Americans are getting what they asked for, more cops and tighter security.

airmech - 6-10-2009 at 07:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
I just listened to the podcast and I don't understand the outrage being expressed here.

The cops had their guns drawn? Well, they had no way of knowing what the occupants of the plane would do. They were playing it safe.

They were screaming? Perhaps to make sure everyone heard them and understood.

I don't buy their explanation that it was a random check. What else are they going to say? It would be dumb for them to let out that they had some sort of information that led to the search, especially since the explanation would end up on an Internet podcast!

Americans are getting what they asked for, more cops and tighter security.

airmech - 6-10-2009 at 07:41 AM

They knew who were in the aircraft already due to the eAPIS form. So the CBP already knew they weren't a threat. Also if you go to the www.bajabushpilot.com page there are four more letters of similar incidents at John Wayne, Long Beach and Tuscon. All these planes were LEAVING the country. After reading the letters of the other four incidents I do not believe anyone had a "red flag" to cause this. I think maybe the head CBP read their little manual wrong and was confused on the part that they are supposed to keep drugs and terrorists OUT of the country not in.

No contraband or people were detained at any of these raids.
CBP 0 travelers 4 so far.

If the CBP are looking for contraband why didn't they look in the turbo commander when they were flying the illegal immigrant mother to Calexico to pick up her little boy from Mexicali because the drug runners snatched him from San Bernardino last month.

Bajaboy - 6-10-2009 at 07:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by mulegemichael
we lost no freedoms under GWB...what the f...???i cannot believe you can honestly say that, david...are you hallucinating to that degree?..o my gawd!...this is very scary..


Name 'em... I cannot think of any that I have lost. However, I am alive and I thank GWB and our troops for that!


um...illegal wiretaps....let's see...xray scans at the airports....hmmm.....9/11 happened on GWB's watch....not blaming him but if you're saying you're safer because of him....I'll beg to differ....



I was asking Mulege Mike that question, but Zac my reply is the increasing of security measures was to save us from a repeat of 9-11.

How is an X-ray scan a freedom that you lost???

My phone wasn't wiretapped because I don't make international calls to known terrorists... was yours? Is that a "freedom" that you lost even if your were listened to talking to terrorists?

9-11 wasn't an overnight planned event, it took years of allowing them to go unpunished... years before W. took over... Do you remember the Cole, the first Twin Tower bombing, the Kenya attacks... Clinton was even offered Bin Ladden on a silver platter and he didn't do ANYTHING... Over 3,000 civilians are dead from the weakness of that administration.

The one and only purpose of our federal government is to protect us from force or fraud, per our constitution. We can do all else on local levels.


David-two words: Civil liberties:!: And by the way, the wire tapping started before 9/11 and what do you know, a few law abiding Americans were "accidentally" affected.

I agree with Mike....are you saying that we should live in a Communist environment? Secret police? Wire tapping? Random searches:lol::lol::lol: I kind of sound like Glen Beck:lol::lol:

David K - 6-10-2009 at 08:12 AM

Well... my question again is what freedoms did YOU lose? I didn't lose any and my country wasn't attacked again.

Communism? Ha ha, that is the next step after socialism and socialism is when government takes over businesses and operates them instead of private citizens... sound familiar? Remember Russia used to be part of the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics, run by the communist party. Socialism has FAILED everywhere it has been tried.

They really don't teach that anymore do they? Even the Europeans with all their socialism (government run businesses and services) are abandoning that as it fails to serve anyone well and bankrupts their economy.

k-rico - 6-10-2009 at 08:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by airmech
They knew who were in the aircraft already due to the eAPIS form. So the CBP already knew they weren't a threat.


Just curious, how did they know that the people on the aircraft were actually the people named on the form?

And, there is always a first time. Every criminal was a law abiding citizen before becoming a criminal. Every man has his price and there's BIG money in the drug business. John Delorean for example.

One battle front in the war on drugs is to stop the guns and drug money that are shipped to Mexico from the United States. It's a two way street, there are criminals in both lanes and the southbound lane is the American responsibilty.

The United States probably has the most criminals if you count the dealers and users.

[Edited on 6-10-2009 by k-rico]

mtgoat666 - 6-10-2009 at 08:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by mulegemichael
we lost no freedoms under GWB...what the f...???i cannot believe you can honestly say that, david...are you hallucinating to that degree?..o my gawd!...this is very scary..


Name 'em... I cannot think of any that I have lost. However, I am alive and I thank GWB and our troops for that!


um...illegal wiretaps....let's see...xray scans at the airports....hmmm.....9/11 happened on GWB's watch....not blaming him but if you're saying you're safer because of him....I'll beg to differ....



I was asking Mulege Mike that question, but Zac my reply is the increasing of security measures was to save us from a repeat of 9-11.

How is an X-ray scan a freedom that you lost???

My phone wasn't wiretapped because I don't make international calls to known terrorists... was yours? Is that a "freedom" that you lost even if your were listened to talking to terrorists?

9-11 wasn't an overnight planned event, it took years of allowing them to go unpunished... years before W. took over... Do you remember the Cole, the first Twin Tower bombing, the Kenya attacks... Clinton was even offered Bin Ladden on a silver platter and he didn't do ANYTHING... Over 3,000 civilians are dead from the weakness of that administration.

The one and only purpose of our federal government is to protect us from force or fraud, per our constitution. We can do all else on local levels.


dk,
hitler, stalin, mccarthy and gwb had same approach to governing: big brother snooping in lives of citzens.

David K - 6-10-2009 at 08:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
Quote:
Originally posted by airmech
They knew who were in the aircraft already due to the eAPIS form. So the CBP already knew they weren't a threat.


Just curious, how did they know that the people on the aircraft were actually the people named on the form?

And, there is always a first time. Every criminal was a law abiding citizen before becoming a criminal. Every man has his price and there's BIG money in the drug business.

One battle front in the war on drugs is to stop the guns and drug money that are shipped to Mexico from the United States. It's a two way street, there are criminals in both lanes and the southbound lane is the American responsibilty.


I thought the same thing....

Just because you named some passengers on the Internet form is no proof that is who was in the plane that morning. They must have gotten a tip about a plane bound for Mexico with a cartel member on board... it just wasn't this plane!

airmech - 6-10-2009 at 08:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
Quote:
Originally posted by airmech
They knew who were in the aircraft already due to the eAPIS form. So the CBP already knew they weren't a threat.


Just curious, how did they know that the people on the aircraft were actually the people named on the form?

And, there is always a first time. Every criminal was a law abiding citizen before becoming a criminal. Every man has his price and there's BIG money in the drug business.

One battle front in the war on drugs is to stop the guns and drug money that are shipped to Mexico from the United States. It's a two way street, there are criminals in both lanes and the southbound lane is the American responsibilty.


I thought the same thing....

Just because you named some passengers on the Internet form is no proof that is who was in the plane that morning. They must have gotten a tip about a plane bound for Mexico with a cartel member on board... it just wasn't this plane!

You need to read the other four letters written by the pilots that this happened to also. In each case the pilots were told it was a "random check" These incidents happened at different airports on different dates. So there goes the "tip" theory and that one of the passengers threw a "red flag"

For you pilots, when you file the eAPIS form I wander if you can file a departure from a different airport when you go to leave. Then just say you had a change of plans. That way the CBP officers would be waiting at the wrong airport.

I haven't used the eAPIS to file to leave the country but a local pilot here was telling me that you can't even choose F70 so you have to file that you departed from Carlsbad or something like that.

DianaT - 6-10-2009 at 09:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Well... my question again is what freedoms did YOU lose? I didn't lose any and my country wasn't attacked again.

Communism? Ha ha, that is the next step after socialism and socialism is when government takes over businesses and operates them instead of private citizens... sound familiar? Remember Russia used to be part of the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics, run by the communist party. Socialism has FAILED everywhere it has been tried.

They really don't teach that anymore do they? Even the Europeans with all their socialism (government run businesses and services) are abandoning that as it fails to serve anyone well and bankrupts their economy.


Again, 9/11 happened under the Bush watch. They were warned in May of 2001, then again Rice was warned in July of 2001---warnings included the idea of Osama's group wanting to hijack airplanes, and explosives. And then, in August, GWB was personally warned while he was on one of many vacations---he bushed off the warning. They might not have been able to stop it, but they ignored the warnings. Good Job.

And they continually used 9/11 as the reason for shredding our Constitution and then connected it and their lies about WMD to start a war in Iraq. Gees, even Cheney admits today these things did not exist.

Then to run the war so Cheney could grow rich with his shares of Halliburton and no bid contracts, the cost of the war was never included in the budget---instead, they added the costs after the budget and borrowed, borrowed, and borrowed.

First time in US history that the country was not asked to sacrifice something during wartime. Instead, Bush told everyone to go shopping and not worry about it. Good job.

It is easy to use the fear words of socialism, commie, etc., and that is all they are, fear words. There are lots of different types of socialism, lots of degrees---some works, and some does not, and it depends on lots of other circumstances.

And, unfortunately, in the name of stopping the commie waves, which were not really happening, the US as a government has been responsible for setting up and supporting some of the worse governments in the world, Pappa Doc and Baby Doc in Hatti, Samoza in Nicaragua, the series of fascist governments in Guatamala after the CIA did in Arbenz --which led to a 34 year civil war,--- the Iran incident that led to the Shah --on and on.

We would all be better off if the Commie boogie man was put to rest----and please, places like North Korea are commie in name only---they are fascist dictatorships.

Back to the topic----there are decent ways to do searches, and then there are the other ways----what happened here, IMHO, was wrong.

Unfortunately, any type of law enforcement draws the wrong personality. Yes, there are MANY great people in law enforcement, but then there are the power and control people.

Those in this country who are willing to give up their rights in the name of security remind me of the elite for whom we worked in Guatemala. They wanted the fascist government back because they were safer---better law enforcement. It was better for them. They had all the financial control and as long as they didn't speak up, they were safe.

As a result, in a room of these Guatemalan's, no one would speak an opinion until they were sure everyone else agreed with them. In their schools under the fascist regimes, creative writing was taught---their version---it was all about having beautiful handwriting. Free thinking was discouraged, but they were safer.

When someone is concerned only about exactly how something has affected them personally, and does not look at the big picture or care how it affects other people, and only thinks about security, that is sad and how GWB and gang were able to operate. It is a little like my new favorite quote from Craig T. Nelson on the Glen Beck show while complaining about the current economics.

"I've been on food stamps and welfare, did anybody help me out? No. No. "

[Edited on 6-10-2009 by jdtrotter]

David K - 6-10-2009 at 09:07 AM

"For you pilots, when you file the eAPIS form I wander if you can file a departure from a different airport when you go to leave. Then just say you had a change of plans. That way the CBP officers would be waiting at the wrong airport."

Wow, do you think that is a good idea?

Perhaps the searches were random and not by a tip... regardless, if it is too frequent then contact your congressman and cross your fingers. Freedom to travel is something I enjoy. Maybe they still got to fly to Baja, but if it happened again, I would call that harassment. Bajaboy, Mt.Goat666... what say you guys? Isn't this more serious a threat to personal freedom than my international call to Yemen being wiretapped???

airmech - 6-10-2009 at 09:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
"For you pilots, when you file the eAPIS form I wander if you can file a departure from a different airport when you go to leave. Then just say you had a change of plans. That way the CBP officers would be waiting at the wrong airport."

Wow, do you think that is a good idea?

Perhaps the searches were random and not by a tip... regardless, if it is too frequent then contact your congressman and cross your fingers. Freedom to travel is something I enjoy. Maybe they still got to fly to Baja, but if it happened again, I would call that harassment. Bajaboy, Mt.Goat666... what say you guys? Isn't this more serious a threat to personal freedom than my international call to Yemen being wiretapped???


Thought I might add also that the eAPIS wasn't mandatory till May 18th, so in less than a month there has been four of these searches (that have been reported so far).

David K - 6-10-2009 at 09:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jdtrotter
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Well... my question again is what freedoms did YOU lose? I didn't lose any and my country wasn't attacked again.

Communism? Ha ha, that is the next step after socialism and socialism is when government takes over businesses and operates them instead of private citizens... sound familiar? Remember Russia used to be part of the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics, run by the communist party. Socialism has FAILED everywhere it has been tried.

They really don't teach that anymore do they? Even the Europeans with all their socialism (government run businesses and services) are abandoning that as it fails to serve anyone well and bankrupts their economy.


Again, 9/11 happened under the Bush watch. They were warned in May of 2001, then again Rice was warned in July of 2001---warnings included the idea of Osama's group wanting to hijack airplanes, and explosives. And then, in August, GWB was personally warned while he was on one of many vacations---he bushed off the warning. They might not have been able to stop it, but they ignored the warnings. Good Job.

And they continually used 9/11 as the reason for shredding our Constitution and then connected it and their lies about WMD to start a war in Iraq. Gees, even Cheney admits today these things did not exist.

Then to run the war so Cheney could grow rich with his shares of Halliburton and no bid contracts, the cost of the war was never included in the budget---instead, they added the costs after the budget and borrowed, borrowed, and borrowed.

First time in US history that the country was not asked to sacrifice something during wartime. Instead, Bush told everyone to go shopping and not worry about it. Good job.

It is easy to use the fear words of socialism, commie, etc., and that is all they are, fear words. There are lots of different types of socialism, lots of degrees---some works, and some does not, and it depends on lots of other circumstances.

And, unfortunately, in the name of stopping the commie waves, which were not really happening, the US as a government has been responsible for setting up and supporting some of the worse governments in the world, Pappa Doc and Baby Doc in Hatti, Samoza in Nicaragua, the series of fascist governments in Guatamala after the CIA did in Arbenz --which led to a 34 year civil war,--- the Iran incident that led to the Shah --on and on.

We would all be better off if the Commie boogie man was put to rest----and please, places like North Korea are commie in name only---they are fascist dictatorships.

Back to the topic----there are decent ways to do searches, and then there are the other ways----what happened here, IMHO, was wrong.

Unfortunately, any type of law enforcement draws the wrong personality. Yes, there are MANY great people in law enforcement, but then there are the power and control people.

Those in this country who are willing to give up their rights in the name of security remind me of the elite for whom we worked in Guatemala. They wanted the fascist government back because they were safer---better law enforcement. It was better for them. They had all the financial control and as long as they didn't speak up, they were safe.

As a result, in a room of these Guatemalan's, no one would speak an opinion until they were sure everyone else agreed with them. In their schools under the fascist regimes, creative writing was taught---their version---it was all about having beautiful handwriting. Free thinking was discouraged, but they were safer.

When someone is concerned only about exactly how something has affected them personally, and does not look at the big picture or care how it affects other people, and only thinks about security, that is sad and how GWB and gang were able to operate. It is a little like my new favorite quote from Craig T. Nelson on the Glen Beck show while complaining about the current economics.

"I've been on food stamps and welfare, did anybody help me out? No. No. "

[Edited on 6-10-2009 by jdtrotter]


Very well written Diane... and yes, mistakes were made... However, we stopped Saddam and saved thousand of innocents from being (really) tortured in his prisons and more young high school girls from being raped by his sons...

If we had only acted sooner against Hitler, think of the millions that would have been saved... Lack of action by good against evil is what kills people. Liberals in the 1930's allowed that maniac to go unchecked... What kind of horrors would have been allowed to continue if we didn't liberate Iraq from that brutal dictator?

gnukid - 6-10-2009 at 10:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K

Very well written Diane... and yes, mistakes were made... However, we stopped Saddam and saved thousand of innocents from being (really) tortured in his prisons and more young high school girls from being raped by his sons...

If we had only acted sooner against Hitler, think of the millions that would have been saved... Lack of action by good against evil is what kills people. Liberals in the 1930's allowed that maniac to go unchecked... What kind of horrors would have been allowed to continue if we didn't liberate Iraq from that brutal dictator?


I know that it may seem hard to follow the facts, but they are there DK, if you are interested.

Patriot Act and Military Commisions Act along with executive Orders have been used to dismantle the Constitution. Why? Why would you support that?
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/detention/39601prs20090515.html
http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0702a.asp
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/resources/17343res20031114.html
http://w2.eff.org/patriot/

There is no Saddam 9/11 connection. Remember? Saddam was well funded by the US who also sold him more than 4 billion of bioweapons. Why? In truth he made no threat to the USA, ever. Nor have we have ever declared war there. We have simply invaded and dumped more bombs on innocents than in our prior history. Why? Why do you support it?
http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/dick-cheney-says-there-...

Hitler was also funded by US interests, Remember? Prescott Bush participated with funding and aid to Hitler. Remember. Union Bank and Harrimen Brothers Brown were convicted among others. Why?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldw...

It may be hard to imagine, but its the same case now and forever, finance and banking interests along with the military industrial complex fund war for profit with disregard for life.

Its hard to pay attention and even harder to imagine that people do this, they do and always have. Why do you support this?

As to your justification for security:

Recall that in your example, no one was prosecuted for the Cole bombing. No evidence has been provided of terrorism? No one is in jail? Yes I know what you'll say they escaped prosecution, but face it no one has been prosecuted and no evidence provided. Why?
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/189744.php

The first WTC bombing has been documented and admitted to be a case where FBI informants participated in planning and providing support to build a bomb, while some agents suggested using a fake bomb, the FBI chief gave the go ahead for a real bomb and allowed the process to proceed. This is public knowledge. Its on tape used in the trials. But its so shocking its hard to accept.
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_1801.shtml
http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0408c.asp
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/10/28/nyregion/tapes-depict-prop...

The WTC bombing on 9/11 has had no prosecutions, no evidence has been provided to support the theory that it was done by outsiders. Remember? None of the named terrorists are in jail nor prosecuted in fact the opposite most were exonerated. I'll stop. I repeat, no evidence, no prosecutions, just vague claims and many questions as to why the the towers fell down in free fall like demolition. As well Building 7 fell and wasn't even hit? Why?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/sep/12/911thebi...


The Kenya attacks too, I don't recall and evidence nor could I find it of terrorists. Yesterday, the first person has been brought to the US to stand trial. This is more revealing for its implications to further erode our laws than for its example as justice.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/09/guantanamo.detain...

Remember the Bush State of the Union where he boasted of a Bosnian Terrorist attack thwarted? Turns out there was no evidence, and he was released as well. Why? Is this beginning to sink in? Someone is lying?
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=7778310&page=1

So your assertions while emotional are not backed up by any evidence. Recall, the vast number of lies admitted about these incidents? Its strange indeed. Why? Why would you parrot lies without any factual evidence?
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-brooks5-2009mar05,...

And finally in regard to wiretapping and loss of rights, its well documented everyone was wiretapped since before 9/11. Why? Who knows why?
http://www.eff.org/issues/nsa-spying
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20031013/corn
http://www.rawstory.com/news/mochila/Study_False_statements_...
I am boring myself here as well as the others, but perhaps you might consider that nothing you stated is based in any evidential fact. I wish it was.

Consider that the USA has the most vast network of military, intelligence, we track everything, all communication and yet they have no evidence of terrorism by the detainees? How can that be? The most powerful military with secret intelligence and counter-intelligence can provide no evidence to support their claims? That's significant and revealing?

Why not take a moment and look at yourself and your role to support the rapid assault on the American way of life and rule of law, look for evidence to support your assertions. Why not ask a few questions.

So lets move on and focus on positivity like SKEET says. Let's be thankful for Baja's ever present ability to shed light on the truths in our lives. Its hard to believe unsubstantiated lies when you are sitting on the edge of the Sierra de la Laguna, or on endless sandy beaches, faced by barren landscapes.



[Edited on 6-10-2009 by gnukid]

DianaT - 6-10-2009 at 10:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K

Very well written Diane... and yes, mistakes were made... However, we stopped Saddam and saved thousand of innocents from being (really) tortured in his prisons and more young high school girls from being raped by his sons...

If we had only acted sooner against Hitler, think of the millions that would have been saved... Lack of action by good against evil is what kills people. Liberals in the 1930's allowed that maniac to go unchecked... What kind of horrors would have been allowed to continue if we didn't liberate Iraq from that brutal dictator?


Sorry, but that "excuse" for invading Iraq, IMHO, does not hold water.

I am afraid that in the world of real politick, human rights is not high on the list.

Governments and rebels we have supported, or at least we are not going after them, who have terrible human rights records----some are listed in my other post. But here are a few more recent ones.

Suddam when he was at war with Iran
The Taliban when they fought against the Soviets
The Royal family of Saudi Arabia
China
Ukraine
and many more.

Using human rights as an excuse for invading Iraq was an after thought---an attempt to justify what happened.

Well, we are really in the realm of off-topic now and hijacking---so sorry and will leave it alone now.

Diane

[Edited on 6-10-2009 by jdtrotter]

mtgoat666 - 6-10-2009 at 10:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jdtrotter

Using human rights as an excuse for invading Iraq was an after thought---an attempt to justify what happened.


also is hypocritical.

"yes, we invaded you in the name of human rights, but we lack humanity and will torture you when we see fit and condemn you to life in prison without a trial."

gwb was the US republican party version of saddam.

David K - 6-10-2009 at 10:56 AM

Making the 3 (three) terrorists think they are drowning to save lives is not torture... We waterboard our own special ops personal so they know what to expect or how it works... Any of you ACLU lovers had a family member aboard one of the planes of 9-11 or in the towers or Pentagon???

Unbelievable how little value you lefties have in human life... shame shame

I would do anything I could to stop a killer of women and children... wouldn't you???

Bajaboy - 6-10-2009 at 10:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Making the 3 (three) terrorists think they are drowning to save lives is not torture... We waterboard our own special ops personal so they know what to expect or how it works... Any of you ACLU lovers had a family member aboard one of the planes of 9-11 or in the towers or Pentagon???

Unbelievable how little value you lefties have in human life... shame shame

I would do anything I could to stop a killer of women and children... wouldn't you???


So are you suggesting that we invade North Korea???? Yes or no:?:

David K - 6-10-2009 at 11:11 AM

I don't think invading is needed... but we should take out his missle launch pads at once!

With so much evil in the world Zac, we need to pick our battles... If we stop one bully, it has a trickle effect... Look how nice Qadaffi of Libya is now, compared to before!

The U.S. needs to be respected and trusted as the gaurdian of freedom... if not us, then who?

DianaT - 6-10-2009 at 11:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Making the 3 (three) terrorists think they are drowning to save lives is not torture... We waterboard our own special ops personal so they know what to expect or how it works... Any of you ACLU lovers had a family member aboard one of the planes of 9-11 or in the towers or Pentagon???

Unbelievable how little value you lefties have in human life... shame shame

I would do anything I could to stop a killer of women and children... wouldn't you???


Yes, one family member got out of the building next to the towers and another extended family member did not.

And yes, I support the ACLU, even when they went to the defense of one of your heros, Rush. I think Rush is a very dangerous person, yet if his rights are violated, so are mine.

Are you still connecting 9/11 to Suddam? Even Cheney does not do that anymore.

Torture and suggesting even when false, that the ends justify the means, IMHO, is very unAmerican. Cheney and his followers are the ONLY ones who think waterboarding is NOT torture. Besides, they like to focus on that to avoid talking about the rest----

And, if you would do anything to stop the murder of women and children, why do you support the continued illegal occupation of Iraq?

DianaT - 6-10-2009 at 11:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I don't think invading is needed... but we should take out his missle launch pads at once!

With so much evil in the world Zac, we need to pick our battles... If we stop one bully, it has a trickle effect... Look how nice Qadaffi of Libya is now, compared to before!

The U.S. needs to be respected and trusted as the gaurdian of freedom... if not us, then who?


First we have trickle down economic which doesn't work, and now trickle down terror tactics? That is just an incredible statement.

And BTW, PLEASE don't "shame, shame" people and accuse them of not caring about lives------how dare you. No matter how big your ego, you are NOT a superior humanitarian to anyone else around here, liberal or not.

Diane

edited to add the insulting quote before you can go back and delete it like you often do when you insult people.

Quote:
Originally posted by David K

Unbelievable how little value you lefties have in human life... shame shame

I would do anything I could to stop a killer of women and children... wouldn't you???


[Edited on 6-10-2009 by jdtrotter]

gnukid - 6-10-2009 at 11:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Making the 3 (three) terrorists think they are drowning to save lives is not torture... We waterboard our own special ops personal so they know what to expect or how it works... Any of you ACLU lovers had a family member aboard one of the planes of 9-11 or in the towers or Pentagon???

Unbelievable how little value you lefties have in human life... shame shame

I would do anything I could to stop a killer of women and children... wouldn't you???



Please refrain from further insulting comments like these above.

ursidae69 - 6-10-2009 at 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Well... my question again is what freedoms did YOU lose? I didn't lose any and my country wasn't attacked again.


How about the 4th amendment for starters??!!

Constitution Free Zone, the 100 miles around the border.
http://www.aclu.org/privacy/spying/areyoulivinginaconstituti...

ursidae69 - 6-10-2009 at 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Making the 3 (three) terrorists think they are drowning to save lives is not torture... We waterboard our own special ops personal so they know what to expect or how it works... Any of you ACLU lovers had a family member aboard one of the planes of 9-11 or in the towers or Pentagon???

Unbelievable how little value you lefties have in human life... shame shame

I would do anything I could to stop a killer of women and children... wouldn't you???


You are an offensive human being David.

CaboRon - 6-10-2009 at 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ursidae69
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Making the 3 (three) terrorists think they are drowning to save lives is not torture... We waterboard our own special ops personal so they know what to expect or how it works... Any of you ACLU lovers had a family member aboard one of the planes of 9-11 or in the towers or Pentagon???

Unbelievable how little value you lefties have in human life... shame shame

I would do anything I could to stop a killer of women and children... wouldn't you???


You are an offensive human being David.


Offensive and disgusting , is that what being David is about:fire:

David K - 6-10-2009 at 11:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Making the 3 (three) terrorists think they are drowning to save lives is not torture... We waterboard our own special ops personal so they know what to expect or how it works... Any of you ACLU lovers had a family member aboard one of the planes of 9-11 or in the towers or Pentagon???

Unbelievable how little value you lefties have in human life... shame shame

I would do anything I could to stop a killer of women and children... wouldn't you???



Please refrain from further insulting comments like these above.


Please refrain from posting stupid comments...

Waterboarding is not torture, putting somone's hand into a paper shreader is. We waterboarded only THREE terrorist because they had information that saved lives. Saddam dipped people in acid, sreadded people alive, and countless other horrors.

There is no reasoning with some of you... If you think America is bad and needs to apologize to the world, then you got the right guy in office... and to you he can do no wrong... People in Germany and Russia followed their leaders with the same blind HOPE and TRUST.

Rush or ANY talk show hosts are not dangerous except to enlighten those clouded by lies from the left. It is freedom of ideas and speach and it is a call-in show to hear from across the country. Liberals even get pushed to the top... Do you ever listen to it or just trust your keepers in what they say about him, Sean, and all the others on the radio? Liberals don't last long on the radio because most people don't like hearing how bad the USA is, over and over. The only way a liberal could stay on the air is if a commercial radio station is forced to, despite terrible ratings and loss of revenue.

America is a great country... We saved people all over the world from tyranny.

Skeet/Loreto - 6-10-2009 at 11:40 AM

David: Is it not the Truth that the lefty Nuts always Hollar about their rights of Free Speech except it be when the Right is Speaking, then they Hollar and Moan like the one Way weak minded Dummies they are!!!?

The above is not an Insult, but a Fact.

Some well placed Atomic Bombs in North Korea will do the Job. Just think the surviors could make their Country over to be as good as Japan.
Oh! Where are you Harry Truman, when we need You??

David K - 6-10-2009 at 11:45 AM

Okay... whatever... shut down the voice of other opinions than yours, and all you have is the one side.

I'm disgusting and offensive, huh?

You don't know me... you only don't want me to say what's on my mind replying to others who said something first.

It is sad that you cannot just share your viewpoints without name calling... which is how liberals debate when they run out of their silly, emotional ideas.:yes:

DianaT - 6-10-2009 at 11:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Making the 3 (three) terrorists think they are drowning to save lives is not torture... We waterboard our own special ops personal so they know what to expect or how it works... Any of you ACLU lovers had a family member aboard one of the planes of 9-11 or in the towers or Pentagon???

Unbelievable how little value you lefties have in human life... shame shame

I would do anything I could to stop a killer of women and children... wouldn't you???



Please refrain from further insulting comments like these above.


Please refrain from posting stupid comments...


So now, people who disagree with your politics not only don't care much about the lives of others, they are stupid!

And you wonder why people get angry.

OK, would you consider this out of line and a personal insult?

DavidK you and your fellow conservatives obviously do not care about human lives and should feel shame. And your posts are stupid.

That is what you said to others.

You can't insult people over and over and expect that they will not respond.

Diane

On edit

Quote:
Originally posted by David K

It is sad that you cannot just share your viewpoints without name calling... which is how liberals debate when they run out of their silly, emotional ideas.:yes:


Your insults are bound to draw angry responses.





[Edited on 6-10-2009 by jdtrotter]

David K - 6-10-2009 at 11:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
David: Is it not the Truth that the lefty Nuts always Hollar about their rights of Free Speech except it be when the Right is Speaking, then they Hollar and Moan like the one Way weak minded Dummies they are!!!?

The above is not an Insult, but a Fact.

Some well placed Atomic Bombs in North Korea will do the Job. Just think the surviors could make their Country over to be as good as Japan.
Oh! Where are you Harry Truman, when we need You??


Thanks Skeet for that... YOU remember the wars in Korea and Asia ... and you know at one time Democrats loved America and hated communism as much as Republicans. Now the Democrats embrace the hate of America and use Karl Marx for economic planning!

Bajaboy - 6-10-2009 at 11:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
David: Is it not the Truth that the lefty Nuts always Hollar about their rights of Free Speech except it be when the Right is Speaking, then they Hollar and Moan like the one Way weak minded Dummies they are!!!?

The above is not an Insult, but a Fact.

Some well placed Atomic Bombs in North Korea will do the Job. Just think the surviors could make their Country over to be as good as Japan.
Oh! Where are you Harry Truman, when we need You??


So should we bomb the dictators of Africa as well? What about South America? Let's just bomb our way out of this problem....worked in Iraq:?:

mtgoat666 - 6-10-2009 at 11:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ursidae69
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Making the 3 (three) terrorists think they are drowning to save lives is not torture... We waterboard our own special ops personal so they know what to expect or how it works... Any of you ACLU lovers had a family member aboard one of the planes of 9-11 or in the towers or Pentagon???

Unbelievable how little value you lefties have in human life... shame shame

I would do anything I could to stop a killer of women and children... wouldn't you???


You are an offensive human being David.


I don't think DK is offensive. I just think he and some others on the right and left don't think before they opens their yaps. I also think their blind nationalism clouds their ability to think objectively, and prevents their empathy from applying to people of different cultures.

[Edited on 6-10-2009 by mtgoat666]

mtgoat666 - 6-10-2009 at 12:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
you know at one time Democrats loved America and hated communism as much as Republicans. Now the Democrats embrace the hate of America and use Karl Marx for economic planning!


come off it, DK. you are unbalanced and delusional to think such

gnukid - 6-10-2009 at 12:15 PM

The issue at hand is quite simple, the available resources are not being used to stop illegal immigration, nor is there much evidence of a threat of terror nor evidence to support dismantling the USA constitution.

It appears the actions on the border, at the airport, and throughout the USA is absurd and has little to do with terror or illegal immigration. It does clearly have dividing, chaotic and confusing effect.

I am as uncomfortable with DK's insults as I am with justification for his insults. Both are disruptive and distracting from the issues we face, in particular, this case where the officers acted in a manner to target lawful people, disregard their 4th amendment rights which only adds to our discomfort and fails to accomplish the task of improving border security.

We are in this together, we must act independently and look to each other for support to bring reasonable approaches to law enforcement without succumbing to intimidation, or falling victim to emotional pleas to forgo our rights and responsibilities.

Let's continue to support the victims here, both those who had their 4th amendment rights violated at the airport and others who are subjected to illegal searches.

Finally, we must resist the urge to forgo lawful actions for emotional pleas for increased security.

We need to come together with reasonable approaches which are not based in insults, name calling, or lawlessness, yet are based in truth which is backed by evidence.

DK has made his case, it holds no water and has been backed up by nothing but emotional pleas and insults. Enough is enough, Let's work together to bring on reasonable solutions and respect for the law and each other.


[Edited on 6-10-2009 by gnukid]

capt. mike - 6-10-2009 at 12:16 PM

regards filing eAPIS and airport of departure - for Airmech et al

here's the deal - right now the eAPIS forms only allow certain ports that have on field CBP offices to be listed as AOD (airport of departure).
so - when i try to complete the form it won't accept my home base as the airport i am leaving from, which is phx Deer Valley, cause we don't have customs here and you can't clear in here from mexico either

- sooooo the genius staff who designed this fricking piece of #$%^ system makes you list an airport from which you might not be leaving! on mine, i have to enter Phx sky harbor as the AOD or the form will not allow you (me) to continue! and - you have to continue untill all the ridiculous entries are made so you can submit the form and get your email response telling you that you have permission to leave the GD country!

it all reverses on the return notice required including email approval in ADVANCE before you can come back in. Ever try to obtain an email from bum $#%^ mexico or baja??!! very convenient on your morning of departure back the the states when you might have to react to weather or other variables that affect your flight and safety.

so - how do they "know" where you are leaving from Stateside when you are forced to enter a faux departure?? EASY!! you STILL have to file separately with FAA an ADIZ border crossing flight plan just as we did the last 40 some years.

what have they gained? just control.....more needless control of our lives every chance they get.

it takes now more than one haand to count the guys who now have privately said to me that they are quitting the mexico trips - just not worth it no more - too much hassle plus these precidents now since May 18th on the record with the overboard gestapo tactics..... enough already.

With so many posts, mistakes are inevitable

DanO - 6-10-2009 at 12:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Look how nice Qadaffi of Libya is now, compared to before!


David, I am loathe to stick my whatever into this political bickering, and likely won't do it again. But you really don't have a clue on this one. Here is a quote from a 2004 article by someone eminently more qualified on the subject than any of us: Martin Indyk, director of the Brookings Institution Saban Center for Middle East Policy, and former U.S. Ambassador to Israel (1995-97, 2000-01), Assistant Secretary of State for Near East Affairs, U.S. Department of State (1997-2000), Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Near East and South Asian Affairs, National Security Council (1993-95), Executive Director, Washington Institute for Near East Policy, and Adjunct Professor, Johns Hopkins University. Yeah, he worked for Clinton, so he has cooties (or maybe a semen-stained dress), but he happens to have been there when it all went down. Read on:

"In fact, Libyan representatives offered to surrender WMD programmes more than four years ago, at the outset of secret negotiations with US officials. In May 1999, their offer was officially conveyed to the US government . . . . Back then, Libya was facing a deepening economic crisis produced by disastrous economic policies and mismanagement of its oil revenues. United Nations and US sanctions that prevented Libya importing oilfield technology made it impossible for Mr. Gadaffi to expand oil production. The only way out was to seek rapprochement with Washington.

Reinforcing this economic imperative was Mr. Gadaffi's own quest for respectability. Fed up with pan-Arabism, he turned to Africa, only to find little support from old allies there. Removing the sanctions and their accompanying stigma became his priority.

From the start of President Bill Clinton's administration, Mr. Gadaffi had tried to open back-channels, using various Arab interlocutors with little success. Disappointed, he turned to Britain, first settling a dispute over the shooting of a British policewoman in London and then offering to send the two Libyans accused in the Lockerbie PanAm 103 bombing for trial in a third country. For the US, accepting this offer had the advantage of bringing Libyan terrorists to justice. But it also generated pressure in the UN Security Council to lift sanctions. The task of US diplomacy then was to maintain the sanctions until Mr. Gadaffi had fulfilled all other obligations under the UN resolutions: ending support for terrorism, admitting culpability and compensating victims' families.

That was why the Clinton administration opened the secret talks on one condition—that Libya cease lobbying in the UN to lift the sanctions. It did. At the first meeting, in Geneva in May 1999, we used the promise of official dialogue to persuade Libya to co-operate in the campaign against Osama bin Laden and provide compensation for the Lockerbie families.

Libya's representatives were ready to put everything on the table, saying that Mr. Gadaffi had realised that was not the path to pursue and that Libya and the US faced a common threat from Islamic fundamentalism. In that context, they said, Libya would actively co-operate in the campaign against al-Qaeda and would end all support for Palestinian "rejectionist" groups, endorse US peace efforts in the Middle East and help in conflict resolution in Africa.

On the issue of WMD, the US at the time was concerned about Libya's clandestine production of chemical weapons. Expressing a preference for a multilateral forum, Libyan representatives offered to join the Chemical Weapons Convention and open their facilities to inspection. In a subsequent meeting in October 1999, Libya repeated its offer on chemical weapons and agreed to join the Middle East multilateral arms control talks taking place at the time. Why did we not pursue the Libyan WMD offer then? Because resolving the PanAm 103 issues was our condition for any further engagement. Moreover, as Libya's chemical weapons programme was not considered an imminent threat and its nuclear programme barely existed, getting Libya out of terrorism and securing compensation had to be top priorities. We told the Libyans that once these were achieved, UN sanctions could be lifted but US sanctions would remain until the WMD issues were resolved.

The fact that Mr. Gadaffi was willing to give up his WMD programmes and open facilities to inspection four years ago does not detract from the Bush administration's achievement in securing Libya's nuclear disarmament. However, in doing so, Mr. Bush completed a diplomatic game plan initiated by Mr. Clinton. The issue here, however, is not credit. Rather, it is whether Mr. Gadaffi gave up his WMD programmes because Mr. Hussein was toppled, as Mr. Bush now claims. As the record shows, Libyan disarmament did not require a war in Iraq."

To put it simply, Qaddafi had already been brought to heel before the Iraq war. You'll need a better example of an evil emperor who peed his pants because we removed Saddam.

Turning to the meta aspect, I for one am tired of having to wade through political hijacks of threads on non-political fora, regardless of who is responsible. Gone are the days when you could ignore an entire thread because you could tell from the title where it was aimed at. Now, half a dozen decent and informative or entertaining threads on any given day are shot through with this crap. I'm not remotely suggesting that the right to express oneself should be abridged. You and the rest of the irrepressible idealogues on both ends of the spectrum who can't resist these shouting matches should just take it out in the hall, wherever that is (I believe they serve turtle soup there). But you won't, because I believe that none of you are truly interested in discussion, just monologue. IMHO, the content and credibility of the non-political fora on this board suffers as a result.

Rant over. Further affiant sayeth not.

airmech - 6-10-2009 at 12:43 PM

capt mike,
So you think FSS contacted CBP when this guy filed his flight plan and thats how they knew when he was taking off? Now that I think about it, Long Beach is a pretty big airport so I'm wondering how they knew where his hanger was. Unless he already contacted clearance delivery or ground control.

About putting a different airport on the eAPIS for departure; aren't they then forcing you to write false documentation which can allow the FAA to take revoke your liscense.


For you non-pilots that wrote earlier about the CBP should point guns at innocent people when doing a random check because the officers dont know what the people are going to do or who they were. The FAA does random ramp checks all the time. They don't know the people in the airplane, they don't know what the people are going to do when they walk up do to the ramp check either. And they don't carry guns.

gnukid - 6-10-2009 at 01:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DanO
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Look how nice Qadaffi of Libya is now, compared to before!


David, I am loathe to stick my whatever into this political bickering, and likely won't do it again. ...


Connecting the dots here ... on the contrary, it is entirely reasonable to see the inter-connectedness to all of these things which do revolve around our wonderful Baja.

The discussion so far illustrated exactly the circumstances surrounding this issue and was incredibly enlightening, not only to see disparate views but to understand the philosophy, justification, deep-rooted psychology, and inter-connectedness for the airport action and a reasonable defense to reduce inappropriate use of our resources.

The result is likely as intended, top-down, deter US travelers from transiting freely to Mexico, cause confusion and chaos, create division, infighting and reduce civil liberties.

Now, what is the appropriate response?

Thoughtful consideration?

Beyond, reporting on this matter, can the victims suggest peaceful action?

We could use our energies to collectively support them in this case irregardless.

[Edited on 6-10-2009 by gnukid]

LancairDriver - 6-10-2009 at 01:32 PM

Check out the CBP response to the Long Beach eapis incident.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/CustomsBorderProtection...

capt. mike - 6-10-2009 at 04:21 PM

just a guess Airmech.
i have no idea how they know where you are based excepting that the eAPIS manefest does take in where the plane is based.
What i think is coming respective to what you enter for your departure point is that soon instead of filing a directo a baja or another mexico AOE (airport of entry) from whever you are, legal today - they are going to require that you can exit the USA ONLY from a CBP port - ergo - i'll have to 1st stop in Nogales, Tucson, Douglas, Yuma etc and file out from there. in that way CBP can check us all out conveniently as we are LEAVING this place just as they do now when we re enter.
That is a freedom restriction IMO since i have the range to fly non stop from my base at phoenix DVT to all 7 current baja AOEs as well as many mainland ports.
if i have to puddle jump to the USA border stop 1st it amounts to a time and cost penalty, time on the ground when i could be making miles in the air - and cost from a let down and gear cycle having to take off and climb back to cruise again. I burn 22 gph in a full power climb! don't want to have to do that twice!

k-rico - 6-10-2009 at 04:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LancairDriver
Check out the CBP response to the Long Beach eapis incident.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/CustomsBorderProtection...


"Ivahnenko said in an interview on Tuesday that there was a "heightened alert" involved in the Long Beach operation but she also said she could not discuss the circumstances that led to a more aggressive posture than normal by the CBP and local police. "

They had a tip something was up.

gnukid - 6-10-2009 at 05:06 PM

K-Rico, you seem to be quite a promoter of tyranny? And predictably so, interesting. As such, you must be aware that part of the False War on Terror, we have been at heightened alert since Bush declared the Axis of Evil would be attacking soon, or I'm sure you have better info. So for example you can explain what code Orange means as opposed to Red and have been predisposed to World Health Organizations plans for declaration of Level 6 Pandemic and mandatory vaccination in coming in days or moments.

So why not rush out for your 3 h1n1 vaccinations in advance too, due to heightened concern about the flu, even though it appears more people have adverse reactions to flu vaccines than benefit from them?

But I am sure you'll come up with a reasonable justification for Tyranny along with your pal DK and the WOT Chorus. Sing it! Ya shill.

gnukid - 6-10-2009 at 05:36 PM

I think its clear to reasonable people that, just because someone declares heightened alert doesn't make it okay to break policy, or break the law. For example, even when the president signs an executive order as an exception, for example the 100 border exception to the constitution doesn't make it legal, not at all.

And each officer's job is to defend the constitution, so they know they can't follow illegal orders from superiors. Sure, there are legal wranglers like John Yoo who wrote arguments to defend torture, still doesn't make it legal for Cheney to order torture. Sure, apparently there are death squads in Iraq, its still not legal.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090622/bauer

Its not hard to make the distinction, the constitution is the law of the land. Breaking the law regardless of what you where told still makes it illegal. In this case there are many questions about the operation, however heightened alert is no justification for their actions. In fact there are never any justification for breaking laws if that is what happened.

We know no contraband was discovered, no illegal aliens, nothing to support the search either before or after it occurred meaning there was no reasonable cause for search or the level of aggression or "level of force" which appears to have been inappropriate. That is why, the CBP precedent with eAPIS and attempt to use it to change how we treat innocent people is alarming and an unfortunate set of circumstances.

I am sure that we find out more about the case, I know little about it.

LancairDriver - 6-10-2009 at 05:45 PM

Here's some more comment from AVWEB on the Long Beach incident.

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/GA_A_Soft_Target_For_Secu...

airmech - 6-10-2009 at 06:32 PM

Of course they had "information". Does anyone think CBP would draw guns and threaten innocent people and then admit they were wrong???

Skeet/Loreto - 6-11-2009 at 08:53 AM

Airmech:
I think that you would find it interesting to yourself and this Board if you could do some research on the "New" things that are to be done regarding Boats and Airplane in relation to the Movement of Drugs to the states/Money/Guns to mexico.

I appreciate your original Post even through I disagree that there was anything Brutal about It.

The taking of that information and trying to Excite peope to Riot, Scare therm into Hiding, then blame it on a "Vast Theory" or "Jack- Booted Antics is one of the most Childless things I have seen Posted.

What is Happening to our Youg? Are they so tied up in playing "Games' that they have lost all sense of Observation, Reason??

gnukid - 6-11-2009 at 11:52 AM

A perfect mirror of hypocrisy

What happened to our Senior Population: They used to stand behind our Constitution, Laws, doing What's RIGHT.

Nowadays, The Retirees seem complacent, tired, Lacking energy. Their collective Yawn is a Shame.

I wonder if they ever do anything but Watch TV!

Har Har Harumph.

bajalou - 6-11-2009 at 12:46 PM

I don't believe you can protect a people by taking away their constitutional rights. If you scare them, some will say "OK do it". The framers of the constitution were VERY much concerned about excesses of the government.

Skeet/Loreto - 6-11-2009 at 12:52 PM

Well Kid, this ole 78 year old does not watch TV, Why? Because it is so False with so much Spin we get disgusted with it.

We do wonder at the Sadly Clothed Kids with Metal in their Ears, Eyes, Nose and other Places, all DRUGGED out along with the others who only know how to push the buttons on a Handheld of somekind.

We attempt to get their attention and teach them Respect, Honor, Kindness, Caring and all those things we still have, but Atlas they do not have the Sense even thro they be 40 years old,having graduated from a good Liberal College where they were taugh by the BOOK, not by FACT!!!


Still more Folks going to Church than watching the Movies on the weekend.

You Liberals remind me of "GroundHogs" Dive in your Holes everytime some one yells:The Sky is Falling" then stick your head up out of your Hole to see if anything is around that might Scare You.

What a Bunch of Freeloaders, can.t wait for the next generation to grow up, maybe, just maybe they will have better Sense.

gnukid - 6-11-2009 at 01:13 PM

Good comments SKEET thank goodness we have you and your wisdom.

Is the issue here that the posters on the aviation site are concerned about the attempt by CBP to ignore the law, to change the traditions of our country and to circumvent the existing jurisdiction of law enforcement divisions?

If so, do you acquaint changes in our traditions of law and order used on apparently well established retirees as an issue to be associated with liberalism and disrespectful youth? Is that what you meant to imply?

For example, defenders of law, such as aviation group who brought this to our attention , defending the US Constitution would be by default Conservative?

Militia acting well outside of their normal jurisdiction changing hundreds of years of procedure among local police would be considered Radical, correct?

However, I think its a bit superficial to categorize any discussion as simply liberal vs conservative as you and DK have done, which is why I mentioned the association with TV, where that simplistic argument is so often projected, falsely.

I wounder how you feel about our American Tradition, respect for our basic values and laws?

Do you want to see radical changes and dismantling laws and jurisdiction to allow these freshman border patrol without much experience, to travel the interior of the states pulling weapons on established American retirees, without reasonable cause, just because someone said so?

At what point would you say that respect for our law, our country and for seniors requires youth to follow the constitution and at what point would you say that breaking procedure is wrong, even though there is a order to do so.

The question is do you SKEET believe that every individual should follow the law or not? Should law enforcement follow the law? When is it okay to follow orders and break laws?

I appreciate your wisdom and vision.


[Edited on 6-11-2009 by gnukid]