BajaNomad - beach concession FINALLY!!!

beach concession FINALLY!!!

Bob and Susan - 6-18-2009 at 09:58 AM

We finally received our concession
The concession is the federal zone 20 meters or about 60 feet

There are 3 kinds of concessions in mexico…

Fishing…this allows you to launch and retrieve boats with fish for sale

Protective…leave natural with no permanent buildings…plants ok

General…build permanent structures

Since we have no current plans for building on the concession we chose the protective concession.
We can, later, reapply for construction on a portion or all of the concession if necessary.
With a protective concession no one else can build in front of our property.
Without the concession we were “at risk” that an outsider could take possession
and build palapas or conduct a business in front of our casitas.
Not good for us.

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Bob and Susan - 6-18-2009 at 09:59 AM

We used Hilario Toba
Tel. 612-124-1277
Cel. 044-612-156-9495
E-mail hilariotoba@hotmail.com
He answers email

From start to finish it took about a year.
The process included a survey of the beach.
Installation of “monuments” marking the federal zone.
Environmental plant study
And lots of paperwork

We were approved in April this year and
It took 2 months to receive the final concession papers in La Paz.

A drive to La Paz was required
The seranap office is located in downtown La Paz and kind of hard to find

1045 ocampo about 6-7 blocks from the malacon.

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Bob and Susan - 6-18-2009 at 10:01 AM

It took 2 hours waiting in the office to complete the paperwork and receive the concession but now it’s done.

it was worth the wait :light:

this is what we looked at for 2 hours :lol:

Russ - 6-18-2009 at 10:04 AM

Congratulations!

Bajaboy - 6-18-2009 at 10:04 AM

Sounds like a process....congrats!

Cypress - 6-18-2009 at 10:17 AM

Congratulations!!! Peace of mind. :biggrin:

longlegsinlapaz - 6-18-2009 at 10:40 AM

Bob, just out of curiosity, would you be willing to share a ballpark cost for the process you just completed, and have you been advised yet what your annual renewal fees will be? If not, no problem....just curious.

I'd done low-level research to get the concession in front of my waterfront property in El Comitan & decided against it pursuing it since SEMERNAT wasn't forthcoming with ANY information of the total costs involved....but that was 8-9 years ago, hopefully, they've changed their blind approach to the process!

pacside - 6-18-2009 at 10:53 AM

That's GREAT...congratulations!

I'm sure it took much patience and diligence on your part to deal with this process. I'm sure this gives you guys peace of mind.

pacside

Woooosh - 6-18-2009 at 10:56 AM

Nice job on the concession! We applied for ours (also for protection), and had honestly given up on it, when it came through- almost two years (baja norte).

I'll share my costs- no big deal. We paid the architect who prepared the surverys, 6 binders, photos, etc- $2800. Our annual fee is about $90, which we quickluy paid at the Rosarito palacio to seal the deal and have the reciept. (There is a lady who does this for $6000 in Rosarito but has Mexico City in her pocket)

We know we are not ever going to be safe though. The biggest scams in Baja Norte involve manipulating the land behind the concessions (betweenyour house and the high tide line). I know it sounds strange, but they pull it off. If you only applied for the concession at the waters edge, and didn't survey and pay for all the way to your property line- someone can still buld in between. We noticed on our final papers that the survey coordinates did not exactly match the ones we requested although they noted no changes the map when granting it.

[Edited on 6-18-2009 by Woooosh]

Bob and Susan - 6-18-2009 at 10:59 AM

i wouldn't do it without assistance...

hilario had to go to the seranap office many times BEFORE he submitted the paperwork

he pretty seasoned now...

the survey guy came 3 times
there is a negotation about where the federal zone actually is...

i'd email hilario for an estimate if you are interested
the fileing fees are small and the annual rent is too

the yearly rent is different in different parts of baja

renewal is due in 15 years

capt. mike - 6-18-2009 at 01:23 PM

i find all this interesting and fascinating too from the perspective of a person involved occasionally in development and property transactions stateside.

my Qs Bob:

ok - you bought a 10 AC narrow deep lot with clear title owned by your mex corp. all easy to follow. and the property rights extend to some imaginary line called the tide fed zona or some such over which you have no easements except to look at it, transverse it etc. - all beaches are public for all mexico yadda yadda.

now you got a concession entitling you to a higher use for the part beyond your PL.

if you have a PL and there is this zona which you have access to - where , how can any entity ever build something between you and the water? is it because they obtained another consession to construct in the same zona vertically?? seems to me that would be highly unlikely as you'd get to provide public comment in protest - or do they not have that stage as part of the hearings?

rpleger - 6-18-2009 at 02:05 PM

Bob and Susan...congratulations.. you guys do everything right and don´t seem to have any trouble (future trouble)..it pays not to take the shortcuts.

Bob and Susan - 6-18-2009 at 02:19 PM

yea mike
you can own to the federal zone

but

someone can get the concession to that federal zone and build on the concession

trick is to tie it up if only by applying for the concession even if you dont get it :light:

some beachfront land owners DO NOT have the concession in front of their property and someone COULD operate a business or build palapas in front of them

a general concession is much more expensive than a protective concession but you get to build permanate places then
a boat ramp would require a general concession

we could later apply for a change to a portion of the protective concession
and make that section general....and build a ramp
but i dont think we will...
its too easy to beach launch in the right location
:saint:

actually there is another federal zone behind the first federal zone if the land falls below thehigh tide height.

that opens another whole can of worms

BajaGringo - 6-18-2009 at 02:31 PM

Congratulations Bob. You guys should be fine now as long as nobody opens up some restaurant nearby serving turtle soup...

:rolleyes:

Bob and Susan - 6-18-2009 at 02:33 PM

oh i know...for sure :light:

we had a "stand-up" with the staff on that issue RIGHT AWAY!!! :yes:

flyfishinPam - 6-18-2009 at 02:39 PM

its semarnat not seranap

http://www.semarnat.gob.mx/Pages/inicio.aspx

Udo - 6-18-2009 at 03:09 PM

I feel that a "CONGRATULATIONS and FELICITACIONES[/B] are in order from my wife and I.

Osprey - 6-18-2009 at 03:36 PM

Through the whole process did you learn that concessions can not be sold or transfered to others? All the stuff I've read leads me to believe that's the case but I never talked to any attorneys/notarios or regulators -- just read the law. (not easy to read) (for me anyway).

Vince - 6-18-2009 at 03:43 PM

Bob and Susan- We have been paying the Federal Zone Taxes for awhile. My understanding is that does not give us any priviledges or rights to that zone. What would happen if we stopped paying those taxes?

oladulce - 6-18-2009 at 11:30 PM

Yipee B&S. Another loose thread you can tie off. Susan was so worried about it she's had to go sailing or fishing or kayaking or waterskiing everyday to take her mind off it. :rolleyes:

The annual concession fee for our area (Comondú, BCS) is $4.39 pesos /sq meter of federal zone so our payment is about $400 dollars/yr for a "Proteccion y Ornato". We finally got ours a couple of months ago too. It took 4 years because they lost the property survey photos in Mexico City but neglected to inform us and nobody could track down the paperwork.

fishbuck - 6-19-2009 at 02:55 AM

So this "concession" thing... does this mean I can drink beer on your beach now?
So I hope this staff you have includes atleast one beautiful mexican waitress to bring that beer!
When I get my concession that's what I'm going to have!

Bob and Susan - 6-19-2009 at 05:54 AM

pam...your right :light:

i can't spell :saint:

and no fishbuck...no beer sold on the beach
we have a deal with pacifico for drinks around the POOL!!!

and

you on your own for the "girls"
its pretty desolate out here at the
"wild part of the bay"

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Osprey - 6-19-2009 at 06:26 AM

Bob and Susan, You've been helpful and forthcoming about information about your new concession when Nomads have made inquiries. But not to mine. Wether our town will have beach access or not hangs on the question I asked you. Not asking for legal knowledge or advice. Through your process did you learn that beach concessions cannot be sold or transfered? If you know, please. Thanks, Please, thanks.

longlegsinlapaz - 6-19-2009 at 07:06 AM

Osprey, everything I've heard is that concessions are NOT transferable. One of the marinas in town was for sale....until the existing owner found out the concession which is where the docks & slips are would not be allowed to rollover to a potential buyer. The potential buyer would have had to close the deal on blind faith that a new concession would eventually be issued in his name, but the marina would be operation illegally in the interim. It was a catch-22 & the potential buyer wasn't willing to risk it all on a roll of the dice that his concession application would be granted; the deal never happened. Hope that helps.

Food for thought....I'm not sure what your trying to accomplish, but have you thought of checking into forming a corporation & requesting concession under a fixed corp. name where the owners/members of the corp. could change over time? Or asking SEMERNAT if a concession could be granted to the town as a whole.

Edit corrected faint to faith :lol:

[Edited on 6-19-2009 by longlegsinlapaz]

Osprey - 6-19-2009 at 07:15 AM

Thanks legs, there are 3 concessions on our beach and if they sell to the marina, we lose our beach. We have applied for a new one down the beach a ways but as you know it could take a while. One or more concessionairs want to let their concession lapse (which is the same as selling it if the act is overt and done for money - I think- ). Every thing I've learned tells me you are right that they cannot be sold or transferred -- I just thought since Bob and Susan just went through a protracted and complex application process they might have learned more and would share their knowledge.

oladulce - 6-19-2009 at 07:33 AM

Osprey, I can forward you a copy of mine if you'd like. The document is only about 3 pages. U2u me with your contact information if it would be helpful.

But I don't know if our "ornato" concession has the same rules as the situation you describe. I couldn't find anything in the doc, but it sure could be there in the Spanish.

I'm sorry but the topic didn't come up during our process.

longlegsinlapaz - 6-19-2009 at 07:48 AM

I was told that concession allows you to block the beach from vehicular traffic, but you CANNOT block it to foot traffic. You can put cement posts in 2'-3'-4' apart, but you cannot put up a solid fence to block foot traffic. Letter of the law is one thing....what happens in reality & enforcement is a whole 'nuther story! I wish you luck in your quest!

Osprey - 6-19-2009 at 07:57 AM

A concession for Fishing presupposes you need vehicle access to the beach so you can sell fish, load gas, customers for charters, launch and haul with trucks. You are so right about "the letter of the law" -- at Cabo Cortez they have fenced in and graded an access road one lane by a couple of kilometers. That will not work -- can't turn around -- very hard to back up a car/truck pulling a boat for a kilometer so the other guy can go home. La Associacion Mexico Unidos por sus Playas is working hard down south here to get beach rights back to where the Mexican government wanted them.

Bob and Susan - 6-19-2009 at 10:15 AM

as far as i know you CANNOT sell or TRANSFER
a part or all of a concession

UNLESS

its in the name of a corporation

then

if you sold the corp it goes with those assets

----------------

a fishing concession bars a new operator from getting another "higher" concession
(on top of the fishing concession)
so there cant be two concessions of different types on the same area of beach

access to the beach with a car is NOT required unless it is written in the original document and the owner of the property that needs to be crossed with a car would have to agree

walking to the beach is ALWAYS ok

the fishing concession is ONLY for taking out and returning a boat with fish for sale

remember its illegal to drive on the beach...period

[Edited on 6-19-2009 by Bob and Susan]

Woooosh - 6-19-2009 at 10:39 AM

You are not supposed to buy or sell federal land- which is what a concession rewally is. Now that I have learned the histry of ejidos though (soviet styled land sharing) and how people found a way to profit by their sale- I don't blame anyone for trying.

Here's a Craigslist listing (with satellite images) of a person trying to sell concession land. There isn't even street access and it is front of another concession. Happens all the time in Norte.

http://tijuana.en.craigslist.com.mx/reo/1188455360.html

We must have a different application process and rules up here- because nothing happens locally, except to take your money. Everything goes through Mexico City. The local Semanart people knocked on our door when it was finally approved and then sent us to the Palacio to pay.

A previous poster suggested to apply just to tie it up- and not follow through. That is good advice actually. In norte the crooks went up and down the whole coast looking for land grabs. They skipped over any parcels that had been applied for. So that does work- for a while anyways.

[Edited on 6-19-2009 by Woooosh]

Osprey - 6-19-2009 at 10:41 AM

Thanks so much, everybody has helped a lot.

pacside - 6-19-2009 at 10:49 AM

I have an interesting situation. A developer pulled all concessions along a huge swath of oceanfront to basically protect it from others building structures and other uses. He has offered to transfer the piece in front of my casa to me. He suggested I form a corporation and it can be done that way.

Others tell me only the entire concession can be transferred not part of a concession. Anyway, I'm working with developer and others to see what can be done.

pacside

Woooosh - 6-19-2009 at 11:07 AM

A concession comes with a title. One title per concession. Maybe if you joined his corporation he could casually "assign" you the parcel in front of your house- but you wouldn't have any more legal rights than you do now. When the corporation changes it's mind- you are done. I'll bet he's not offering it for free either- is he? Talk to Semanart and see what they say about it. The developer is working for his interests- not yours or he wouldn't have called dibbs on the land to begin with.

A very important factor in concessions is knowing who is in "first" position for approval. A mexican holding clear title to land that is impacted by the federal zone has first right to it when applying for a concession. (we supplied photos of the ocean water actually touching our house- so there would be no doubt about "impact". ) Everyone else comes next- but Mexico City gives priority among that group to those who want to develop, not protect, the land. Their thinking is that development creates jobs, helps the local economy, pays more taxes, etc.

At least that's how it works in Norte.

JESSE - 6-19-2009 at 11:13 AM

Congratulations, just don't invite Mano Negra and Olivia to your celebration party :lol:

Bob and Susan - 6-19-2009 at 11:18 AM

whoosh
"Talk to Semanart and see"...

that's SEMARNAP... i've already been spanked :lol:

our concession was applied for and
fees paid at the SEMARNAP office in santa rosalia
first

then to la paz

then to mexico city for the "real" approval

then back to la paz for pick up

wooosh is correct all concessions are approved in mexico city

Bob and Susan - 6-19-2009 at 11:20 AM

jesse
we were going to "party" at your place in la paz but you were closed

so...

we went to "applebees" :lol:

shari - 6-19-2009 at 11:27 AM

muchas felizidades B & S...peace of mind has a price doesn't it but now you can relax knowing you are pretty safe....whew.

longlegsinlapaz - 6-19-2009 at 11:29 AM

Bob, please repeat after me

....

SEMARNAT

S E M A R N A T

S E M A R N A T

While it's true that everyone pronounces it with a "p" at the end. it's actually a "t". :bounce:

Bob and Susan - 6-19-2009 at 11:40 AM

woops...again :tumble:

pacside - 6-19-2009 at 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
A concession comes with a title. One title per concession. Maybe if you joined his corporation he could casually "assign" you the parcel in front of your house- but you wouldn't have any more legal rights than you do now. When the corporation changes it's mind- you are done. I'll bet he's not offering it for free either- is he? Talk to Semanart and see what they say about it. The developer is working for his interests- not yours or he wouldn't have called dibbs on the land to begin with.

A very important factor in concessions is knowing who is in "first" position for approval. A mexican holding clear title to land that is impacted by the federal zone has first right to it when applying for a concession. (we supplied photos of the ocean water actually touching our house- so there would be no doubt about "impact". ) Everyone else comes next- but Mexico City gives priority among that group to those who want to develop, not protect, the land. Their thinking is that development creates jobs, helps the local economy, pays more taxes, etc.

At least that's how it works in Norte.

Whoosh good info thanks. Actually developer did pull entire concession because he does want to protect his interests which are aligned with what I want. It is so that the area doesn't become another Cancun or Playa del Carmen. He wants his development to be appealing and so wants to protect usage of fmz areas.

He doesn't want to charge me anything but does want to 'transfer' the annual fee for the piece in front of my casa to me. The entire concession he has is very costly to pay on an annual basis so I imagine his plan is to parcel the cost of it out to the individual parcel owners...now the question is how to do that.

Yea a side deal could always be done but wouldn't have same assurances as having your very own concession. His suggestion is I form a corporation and he put it in that...I think between developer and semarnat we'll come up with something that is agreeable to everyone.

pacside

[Edited on 6-19-2009 by pacside] edited to correct spelling of SEMARNAT

[Edited on 6-19-2009 by pacside]

Woooosh - 6-19-2009 at 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
woops...again :tumble:

me three

fishbuck - 6-19-2009 at 03:52 PM

"and no fishbuck...no beer sold on the beach
we have a deal with pacifico for drinks around the POOL!!!

and

you on your own for the "girls"
its pretty desolate out here at the
"wild part of the bay"

Okay so beer at the pool only ( I can live with that ) and BYOB ( Bring your own Bonita ).
I guess I'll need to stop in Santa Rosalia on the way and see what I can find.

[Edited on 6-19-2009 by fishbuck]