BajaNomad

Our First Biosphere Reserve Bracelets in Asuncion!!!

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shari - 6-22-2009 at 12:41 PM

Today was an exciting day for us as it was our first tour using the new Vizcaino Biosphere Reserve "bracelet" system. Nomads Carlos and his son Benito show off their wristwear before setting out to Isla Asuncion to shmooze with the sea lions.
the newly painted Sirena was happy to get her tail wet too!




So a heads up to visitors to mid baja...all tourist service providers must have a special biosphere reserve permit and you must purchase the bracelet for $5 a day per person.
I just bought a dozen so we will have them on hand here to make it easier for our clients.


[Edited on 6-22-2009 by shari]

Paulina - 6-22-2009 at 01:24 PM

I wonder if the same process is being implemented over in Bahia?

Bajaboy - 6-22-2009 at 01:46 PM

So who exactly must purchase a bracelet?

flyfishinPam - 6-22-2009 at 02:59 PM

At least yours aren't bright pink like here. kinda funny having to make fishermen wear bright pink bracelets. maybe next year they'll decide to make them in rainbow.

flyfishinPam - 6-22-2009 at 03:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
So who exactly must purchase a bracelet?


any non resident of the biosphere, Mexican or otherwise

shari - 6-22-2009 at 03:15 PM

If you plan on being anywhere in a biosphere reserve in mexico for more than a week, it's better to get the passport for 260 pesos which is good for any reserve in the country for a year...

I believe BOLA has the system and juans cousin Tobi is in charge of the biosphere reserve office there where you get the bracelets.
This also includes areas like La Bocana, Abreojos, Loreto, GN, Turtle Bay etc. I have been told Campo Rene and the fishing coop in La bocana will also be issueing the bracelets.

Bajaboy - 6-22-2009 at 03:20 PM

So let me get this straight...anyone visiting BA must purchase one? So when our neighbor's family of 6 come over from Santa Rosalia they must purchase one? When a delivery is made, the driver must get one? When sailors come ashore for a bite to eat, they must get one?

shari - 6-22-2009 at 03:41 PM

I asked Javier,the reserve rep today to clarify who does and does not need the permit and he said he would use his "criteria"...hmmm this could get interesting. He said people just visiting wouldnt need one "in his opinion" but those who go fishing, or use tourist services like guiding to the cave paintings, whale watching, etc...would need one. Javier is a surfer and according to the internet regulations, anyone using the park...boogie boarding, swimming, surfing, camping on the beach, bike riding says need the permit...but when I asked Jaime about the surfer dudes...he hummed and hawed and didnt answer....while I dont think much of the regs, I respect them and will play by the rule....as long as everyone else does too....why should our clients have to get the permits and the surfers dont???? I can see this might become a sticky issue. since it is a new thing...there will be bugs that need to be worked out in the system.

Bajaboy - 6-22-2009 at 04:10 PM

Hey Shari-

Where can we find out about the fees online? Who administers the program? I took a quick look at the State Tourism Website and didn't see any mention of this fee. Seems like you're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. We'll talk more next week when I get to town.

DianaT - 6-22-2009 at 04:24 PM

The good thing about the fees is that the money stays local---it is used for projects on the Preserve. I believe the same is true with the fees being charged in Loreto for fishing etc. in that Preserve.

And yes, it is only fair if all the tourist services and fishing guides in town have to follow these rules --- and from what we have been told, that is the way it is.


If you want to see the local headquarters that are in Guerrero Negro, check out this Parks Watch Website Lots of information.



[Edited on 6-22-2009 by jdtrotter]

Bajaboy - 6-22-2009 at 04:42 PM

So Diane, can you define who is a tourist and who is not? Maybe San Diego should come up with a similar program?

DianaT - 6-22-2009 at 04:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
So Diane, can you define who is a tourist and who is not? Maybe San Diego should come up with a similar program?


They do---it is called a room tax and taxes on tourist attractions. And yes, there are some places like Balboa Park a tourist can visit with out a fee, but not if they take advantage of any of the museums, etc.

redmesa - 6-22-2009 at 05:10 PM

Life just keeps getting more complicated and interesting. Diane do you need a bracelet. Do I need a bracelet to wear around town for 6 or so months? When are you a tourist and when are you a resident?

DianaT - 6-22-2009 at 05:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by redmesa
Life just keeps getting more complicated and interesting. Diane do you need a bracelet. Do I need a bracelet to wear around town for 6 or so months? When are you a tourist and when are you a resident?


We have our FM3s and own property, so no, from what we have been told.

Cannot believe how uptight everyone seems to be getting over this. Fees to help project for the Preserve are a good thing. In the US all of our parks charge, and in Canada, the charges for using their parks are VERY expensive for us.

Friends told us that even though they have their FM3s, they still had to pay the fees to fish in Loreto because their FM3s are from a different district.

So, Bahia Asuncion as a part of the Biosphere, the same as the Whale lagoons, is now enforcing the tax for tourist services in order to help the area.

longlegsinlapaz - 6-22-2009 at 05:59 PM

Is there anyone who can explain the difference between Biosphere vs Preserve & what the definition is for each? Is/are they specific areas like parks or is the entire town of Asuncion included in the Biosphere/Preserve? What defines the boundaries....or is it activity driven?? If you come to town, but don't fish/surf/camp do you have to buy a bracelet every day? Or is it just the days you do go fishing, for example? What if you just rent a room & lay in the sun on the hotel property?

Are biospheres/preserves all over? Will I be hit up to buy a bracelet the next time I go out to Balandra or Tecolote for the day....until I show proof of local residency?? How does anybody know where they need to buy a bracelet to go or do?

It sounds like it's a tourist/visitor issue & that permanent full-time residents or property owners are exempt; possibly because they pay local property taxes & visitors don't....but there is the hotel/rental tax....just thinking out loud here!:rolleyes: However, I don't think the rental taxes stay locally.

But I gotta say that $67.27 pesos ($5 USD at today's 13.454 exchange rate) per day does seem kinda stiff! Especially for Mexican families who might visit or want to spend a day on the beach.

But I do think it's great that the the money (I assume 100% of it or possibly minus the cost of manufacturing the bracelets) does stay there in the immediate community for total community benefit.

redmesa - 6-22-2009 at 06:12 PM

Hey, I am not uptight... and being a Canadian I have no fear of taxes. I just have clarity issues and I do not want to wear a bracelet. People do get curious (more the word for me than uptight) about new laws and regulations. A tax is anonymous a badge or bracelet is not.

fishbuck - 6-22-2009 at 06:25 PM

I think I would get the annual one.
I not opposed to this idea. It sounds good! But what benefit does it really create for the people who purchase them?
It doesn't seem to keep the poachers out of the Loreto preserve.
So $5 seems fair if there is a tangible benefit. What is the tangible benefit?

David K - 6-22-2009 at 06:29 PM

I wonder if they really think that adding a new fee/ tax (to the already low number of tourists) is somehow going to make more people want to come to Mexico??? :rolleyes:

DianaT - 6-22-2009 at 07:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by redmesa
Hey, I am not uptight... and being a Canadian I have no fear of taxes. I just have clarity issues and I do not want to wear a bracelet. People do get curious (more the word for me than uptight) about new laws and regulations. A tax is anonymous a badge or bracelet is not.


I am sorry---knowing you, I do not see you as an uptight person, but some are.

First of all, these are not NEW taxes, just newly enforced and a good thing for the benefit of the Preserve. I understand what you are saying about anonymous, but we think about it as similar to having your hand stamped when leaving a tourist attraction to show you already paid.

Preserves in Mexico are very different than in other places---they still allow farming and other commercial activity. And all of Bahia Asuncion is a part of the Preserve---a beautiful place to be, but it is on the Preserve.

Yes, the days are slipping away where one could simply drive out there and hire a fisherman to take them fishing, or as we did many years ago, hire a fisherman to take you whale watching. It is not a judgment call, just reality.

It does not seem there will be a kiosk for anyone entering the Preserve for anytime in the near future, but the tourist service providers will need to support the Preserve by making sure their clients are in compliance.

Is suporting the local projects to preserve the future such a big deal? Gees

How many of you have paid for the bracelets to fish in Loreto? Bahia Asuncion is less and less becoming the boondocks, for better or for worse.

[Edited on 6-23-2009 by jdtrotter]

DianaT - 6-22-2009 at 07:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
"Is suporting the local projects to preserve the future such a big deal"

What projects? Like I said, what are the tangible benefits? Or is this just another $5 that creates some useless job for somebody.
Is anyone actually doing anythere to protect and improve the preserve. Or is collecting $5 all there is to it?


It is a choice---no one has to fish or take advantage of any other tourist service in Bahia Asunsion.

LIke anywhere else, if one does not like the policy, they do not have to visit.

[Edited on 6-23-2009 by jdtrotter]

KurtG - 6-22-2009 at 07:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shari
If you plan on being anywhere in a biosphere reserve in mexico for more than a week, it's better to get the passport for 260 pesos which is good for any reserve in the country for a year...



260 pesos or $20.00 at the current exchange rate for a year pass is so dirt cheap that even I can afford it and I'm the cheapskate riding around on a 18 year old bike. I budget around $50.00/year for FMT and another $20.00 that is used toward local projects will be a small part of my Baja travel budget. I am surprised at this carping about such a small deal, an annual pass for the price of a few margaritas. Get some perspective here!

DianaT - 6-22-2009 at 07:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by KurtG
Quote:
Originally posted by shari
If you plan on being anywhere in a biosphere reserve in mexico for more than a week, it's better to get the passport for 260 pesos which is good for any reserve in the country for a year...



260 pesos or $20.00 at the current exchange rate for a year pass is so dirt cheap that even I can afford it and I'm the cheapskate riding around on a 18 year old bike. I budget around $50.00/year for FMT and another $20.00 that is used toward local projects will be a small part of my Baja travel budget. I am surprised at this carping about such a small deal, an annual pass for the price of a few margaritas. Get some perspective here!


Thank you---well stated

fishbuck - 6-22-2009 at 07:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jdtrotter
Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
"Is suporting the local projects to preserve the future such a big deal"

What projects? Like I said, what are the tangible benefits? Or is this just another $5 that creates some useless job for somebody.
Is anyone actually doing anythere to protect and improve the preserve. Or is collecting $5 all there is to it?


It is a choice---no one has to fish or take advantage of any other tourist service in Bahia Asunsion.

LIke anywhere else, if one does not like the policy, they do not have to visit.

[Edited on 6-23-2009 by jdtrotter]


Nice attitude. But you didn't answer the question. Is that because you don't know what this $5 goes to exactly. Does anyone.
If this is just a $5 fee with no tangible benefit to the person paying, just say so.
Don't try to pretend this is some sort of noble cause if it's not.
And $5 wouldn't stop me from visiting B.A. to fish with Juan.

Bajaboy - 6-22-2009 at 08:10 PM

Hey Buck-

Maybe they'll use the money for Escalara Nautica:lol::lol:

I just returned from a marine preserve and a city park....and didn't pay a dime...yes, that would be La Jolla Shores.

I'd really like to see the regulations for this "old" tax. Seems if this has been on the book for some time, the Board of Tourism would have it listed on their website under permits and/or eco-tourism.

I'm not uptight but if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, I'm guessing it's a duck. I'm glad some here feel this is a worthy project. Please don't denigrate those of us who don't see it the same way.

As I stated before, there are much more effective and efficient means of raising money for the Biosphere. This one is a bunch of caca!

k-rico - 6-22-2009 at 08:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Hey Buck-

Maybe they'll use the money for Escalara Nautica:lol::lol:

I just returned from a marine preserve and a city park....and didn't pay a dime...yes, that would be La Jolla Shores.



At first I thought you had a point but then I thought.....

Federal tax, state tax, local tax, sales tax, property tax, vehicle registration fee, parking meters, $100 - $200 tickets for the slightest infractions, etc.

Sure, you didn't pay a dime.

DianaT - 6-22-2009 at 08:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Hey Buck-

Maybe they'll use the money for Escalara Nautica:lol::lol:


Nothing to do with the Preserve. Why don't you speak to the people who work for the Preserve before you say it is a bunch of caca. They would very happy to explain it all to you.

We really do not understand your hostility toward all of this---look up Jamie Morales, the Preserve agent when you are there and listen. NO ONE cares more about the future of the Preserve and the people of Bahia Asuncion than he does, and he would be happy to talk with you.


[Edited on 6-23-2009 by jdtrotter]

Bajaboy - 6-22-2009 at 08:50 PM

Why do you say I have hostility towards this? I did say I would like to see the written regulations so I better understand them. I find it odd that money can be collected yet there are no written regulations.

I have seen too many times money collected that vanishes into thin air. All I am asking for is some explanation and accountability.

Why not apply an additional property tax for residents? Why not add a tax for hotel rooms as you mention San Diego does?

And why is it so wrong for a person to ask questions regarding this "old" policy?

Bajaboy - 6-22-2009 at 08:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Hey Buck-

Maybe they'll use the money for Escalara Nautica:lol::lol:

I just returned from a marine preserve and a city park....and didn't pay a dime...yes, that would be La Jolla Shores.



At first I thought you had a point but then I thought.....

Federal tax, state tax, local tax, sales tax, property tax, vehicle registration fee, parking meters, $100 - $200 tickets for the slightest infractions, etc.

Sure, you didn't pay a dime.


Why not charge a $5 fee for all the tourists that use the beach instead? San Diego would be cash flush and the beaches wouldn't be as crowded.

amirravon - 6-23-2009 at 01:36 AM

Is that real or fake? sound like a script from The Jerry Springer Show,
BTW Well done apologize fishbuck

[Edited on 6-23-2009 by amirravon]

fishbuck - 6-23-2009 at 02:33 AM

No, it's not Springer, it's real.
But I would like to repeat. $5 more would not stop me from fishing with Jaun.
It costs me about $200 in fuel and 24 hours of driving to fish with Juan. $5 more? You're kidding right? I won't even notice it.
And if I had to pay $5 more to go whale watching with Shari at the lagoon, ofcourse I'm paying it.
Juan and Shari do more to share the beauty of B.A. and the whales than anyone I know.
And not just the natural beauty of the sea either.
Last time I was there Shari took me to an QUENCINETERA or something like that.
A beautiful girl had her 15th birthday at the town... party place... like a outdoor basketball court with a stage. They set up tables and have a dance floor.
Anyway, this beautiful young lady was dressed and treated like a princess. It was a big party. Free beer!!!
So, Shari showed me something about Baja I had never seen. And she danced with me too.
Man, there was some really good dancers there too. Guapo hombres in cowboy hats and bonita damas in fine dresses.
But then I saw a few guys doing the "Tecate Two-Step". Drinking beer while dancing? I can do that!!! Just shuffling and drinking beer. Paradise!
But Shari, man she can really dance. And Serena, wow what a classy lady. Watching her dance was beautiful. So graceful!
So kiddies, the moral of the story is that it's worth the extra $5 to hang with Juan and Shari! Todos es bien!
Almost everyone in B.A. is really cool and fun to be with.
Almost everyone. ;)





[Edited on 6-23-2009 by fishbuck]

k-rico - 6-23-2009 at 06:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jdtrotter
While we would prefer that ugly American trash stays out of Baja, (even TJ)...........

John


Hey!

"Even TJ?"

What's that suppose to mean?

It's a lovely place:tumble:

I tell ya, I get no respect.

DianaT - 6-23-2009 at 07:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
Quote:
Originally posted by jdtrotter
While we would prefer that ugly American trash stays out of Baja, (even TJ)...........

John


Hey!

"Even TJ?"

What's that suppose to mean?

It's a lovely place:tumble:

I tell ya, I get no respect.


Opps---you are correct, it is a lovely place---should have referred to just certain areas in TJ that are not so nice. Sorry.

Anyway, since our personal opinions of fishbuck have really nothing to do with the Preserve fees, we are going back and removing those posts. For the purpose of this thread, they were out of line. What fishbuck does, is up to him.

Regarding the fees, however, it seems that no one has ever complained about the 46 peso bracelet when they have gone whale watching, or taken a tour to the cave paintings, or joined the Baja Ha Ha----probably because they were just included in the price.

We cannot imagine that a small increase in the price of enjoying a day of fishing or touring is going to hurt Shari and Juan's business or any other tourist business in the area. Well, actually, there are people who in the past have just taken people out fishing with NO licenses and they will lose money, but the business should go to the people who have jumped through all the hoops.

Just two examples of the use of the funds. In BA when the delagado organized the trash clean up committee, the Preserve stepped in and paid the people a small amount, helped take the trash to the dump, and paid for the municipal trash people to take the extra trash to the dump.

If it was not for the Preserve, there would be no more pronghorn in BCS.

Many of the taxes in Baja go to Mexico City and are not used to benefit the local area, but this is different, the money stays local. We care a lot about that area and just really do not understand why anyone has a problem with paying the Park fees in Baja and not in the US or Canada.

Again, this was not the place to express our personal opinions about fishbuck, so to others, we apologize.

John and Diane

[Edited on 6-23-2009 by jdtrotter]

woody with a view - 6-23-2009 at 08:00 AM

summertime, and the living's easy........

David K - 6-23-2009 at 08:26 AM

It sure is strange to see someone else getting jumped on for asking a question or pointing out something obvious...:rolleyes:

Anyway, it is not a complaint about the fee, it is the LOGIC of adding a NEW expense to an already hurting tourist economy that I was wondering about way up in this thread.

When business is down, LOWERING the price encourages MORE business.

In weird ******* government newthink, they RAISE the prices (to make up for lost income)!:rolleyes: Which punishes the few who can afford the costs of a vacation and makes them LESS likely to return or recommend the place.

I would think wise local authorities would consider that the time to add a NEW fee to use the PUBLIC land is when tourism is up, and there are lots of visitors and not to hit on the few that can get out there now. Or, as Fishbuck mentioned... charge the people who actually caused the enviromental damage and not soak strangers for the mistakes of others.

[Edited on 6-23-2009 by BajaNomad]

Geo_Skip - 6-23-2009 at 08:40 AM

Thank you Shari for the information about the fees and the research.. Sadly sone knee jerk political pundits in Norte Californians seem to want to make a complaint about the USER Fees (exGovernator..Ronald Reagan loved to demand user fees) ...but I expect that they will all dry up as they find that they are soon charged daily use fees for most state and municipal parks in California USA...thanks to the bankruptcy of the state. Then perhaps they will spend their time worrying about where the money from the fees they pay here are used and stop whining about the Biosphere Reserve use fees.

The fees are minimal to me and I am not upset to pay for helping out .

Thanks again Shari. The wind will blow away the whiners.

David K - 6-23-2009 at 08:47 AM

Geo_Skip, please read carefully: "Anyway, it is not a complaint about the fee, it is the LOGIC of adding a NEW expense to an already hurting tourist economy that I was wondering about way up in this thread.
When business is down, LOWERING the price encourages MORE business."

Is the fee more important to you than the people of Asuncion having more income from MORE tourists? With no income, NOTHING can be done to help whatever it is that needs help.

DianaT - 6-23-2009 at 08:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geo_Skip
Thank you Shari for the information about the fees and the research.. Sadly sone knee jerk political pundits in Norte Californians seem to want to make a complaint about the USER Fees (exGovernator..Ronald Reagan loved to demand user fees) ...but I expect that they will all dry up as they find that they are soon charged daily use fees for most state and municipal parks in California USA...thanks to the bankruptcy of the state. Then perhaps they will spend their time worrying about where the money from the fees they pay here are used and stop whining about the Biosphere Reserve use fees.

The fees are minimal to me and I am not upset to pay for helping out .

Thanks again Shari. The wind will blow away the whiners.


I also believe that once people get used to it, they will quit complaining. Many years ago, we went whale watching in one of the lagoons---just drove up and directly paid the man with the panga---that has all changed, and no one complains about the 46 peso part of the fee that is for the Preserve. And I don't believe one person has dropped out of the Baja Ha Ha over the user fee---just part of the package.

I think that if people just include it in their prices, no big deal---and thank you for the term USER FEE, because that is what it is. A user fee to benefit the Preserve.

Bajaboy - 6-23-2009 at 09:00 AM

Hey Skippy-

Once again, I am not complaining about the fees and I don't think DK is but I'll let him speak for himself.

My contention is with who pays the bracelets and for what activities. Does the family visiting from Santa Rosalia need to purchase bracelets for their kids who decide to go surfing? What about the mountain bike team from Jesus Y Maria? Are they required to pay the fee? What if a resident Canadian has friends visiting and they decide to go snorkeling. Do they need to pay?

From what I understand, based on the limited information provided, is that this fee is applied arbitrarily and that is my main contention. Why not just set up a toll booth at the Vizcaino turn-off and charge a fee there? Seems like an easier solution to me.

DianaT - 6-23-2009 at 09:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy Does the family visiting from Santa Rosalia need to purchase bracelets for their kids who decide to go surfing?

Why not just set up a toll booth at the Vizcaino turn-off and charge a fee there? Seems like an easier solution to me.


Santa Rosalia is a part of the reserve---look at the map of the area it covers. It is huge.

The fee is already charged for other tourist industries in the Preserve---whale watching, cave painting tours, etc. Now other tourist industries are being required to participate.

Bajaboy - 6-23-2009 at 09:25 AM

Is hiking or walking a tourist industry? Surfing? Swimming? Playing fetch with a dog on the beach?

Can someone just please point to the printed regulations? I'm not going to put my head in the sand just because someone on Baja Nomad says something one way or another.

David K - 6-23-2009 at 09:34 AM

So many of us go to Baja TO GET AWAY from the excessive government regulations and rules and to leave civilization behind to get closer to nature and the 'real world'.

Now an area of Baja that so many Nomads have recently discovered thanks to Shari, is falling under the thumb of government... Will a walk on the beach be charged like watching a movie.. seriously???

capt. mike - 6-23-2009 at 09:56 AM

i'm thinking prez O'Bama came up with this great plan and whispered it into Calderone's ear at the Gee whatever conference for Latin Amerika....

so....besides this lively diatribe being a great Springer episode..the locals vs. the yokels....what's the deal - if you own property (FM3 et al) you don't have to pay this obviously regressive tax? that seems a tad one way if you use it too, the beach.

what this does is hurt the people most likely to otherwise enjoy an amenity where they might not otherwise have other options for family entertainment.
poor mexicans from other locales on vaca.

i call BS.

i would however be willing if ASKED to contribute one time for a bracelet in support of conservation or beach maintenance if i was going to spend some vaca there. i hope they resemble disney land, cruise ship or hospital wrist wraps....what do they do, change the color each day to catch pikers?

wilderone - 6-23-2009 at 10:08 AM

There will be very little accountability and administration of the fees and, as some have asked, what are the fees going to be used for? And why will Mexicans allow anything that's proposed to go forward to destroy the biosphere preserve until it's stopped by US NGO's. And at the same time, charge foreign tourists for the ostensible purpose to conserve it? Isn't the Boleo mine in the preserve? The salt works? off-road racing allowed? illegal dumping? Open town dumps? illegal turtle catch and fishing? Hunting - legal and illegal - and most of the perpetrators are Mexicans. Isn't part of the fishing permit supposed to be used for the enforcement and protection of the Mexican waters? What is the fishing permit money used for? Hunting permits for foreigners cost A LOT - what is that money used for - also supposed to be used for "local" communities. INAH permit fees are already charged for the Viscaino sites. The fee that tourists pay for their visas is NOT a payment for the visa, per se - it was originally intended to pay for a multitude of tourist-oriented expenditures. There has been little accountability of the fees that are paid now. I'm not against a fee paid to enter a park for a specific purpose, within a specific area, to be used for designated purposes, but charging a $5.00 fee every time you stop the car is wrong. In Jamaica there are private beaches that cost a quarter. You want to see an antelope preserve - pay $3.00 at the door. Turtle research station? $5.00 please. Campground fee - of course. The whale watching has been going smoothly and the areas preserved - all without an extra fee. How would this fee affect whale watching? Don't need more boats, no problem with enforcement. All this regulation is really putting a damper on the Baja feeling big time. I too want to see the printed regulations.

Sharksbaja - 6-23-2009 at 10:12 AM

Like many instances, it unfortunately opens doors for opportunists. I like the fact that it's for the good of the land(and sea) but I struggle to convince myself that somehow I will not be rousted up in the morning on some desolate beach by some guy in a beat up old Toyota telling me I'm in the "preserve" and "gimme da mony!"

wilderone - 6-23-2009 at 10:18 AM

Here's an informative site that denotes the problems within the biosphere preserve, and what they may hope to better manage it. There are some "solutions" proposed - killing all the feral animals is one.

http://www.parkswatch.org/parkprofile.php?l=eng&country=...

gnukid - 6-23-2009 at 10:22 AM

This is time for us to come together, to work together with kindness, love and respect for ourselves and for everyone.

It seems we Americans have a conditioned response which is to choose sides diametrically opposed, a default paradigm like rich versus poor or dems vs repubs, which really has no place here or anywhere, its not valid. There are many diverse wonderful people, each a shining light, each a blooming flower whose presence creates an ever more beautiful world.

BA is new to the approach of a protected Biosphere and I am sure the administrators will have growing pains while being flexible and positive.

There is a long history to these passes, isn't there? The Bioshpere passes are in use in BCS at Isla Espirtu Santo and Isla Partida and all over (the world) for many years. Primarily the passes reinforce the idea that we should not litter and we should protect the area, no collecting shells and specimens, leaving no trace of our visits.

In my experience in BCS at other locations, the passes are generally purchased only for organized visiting tours, individuals passing through are not obligated to purchase passes, however they can purchase the passes if they plan to use the resource fully, such as camping. Let's see how BA shakes down.

DianaT - 6-23-2009 at 10:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
This is time for us to come together, to work together with kindness, love and respect for ourselves and for everyone.

It seems we Americans have a conditioned response which is to choose sides diametrically opposed, a default paradigm like rich versus poor or dems vs repubs, which really has no place here or anywhere, its not valid. There are many diverse wonderful people, each a shining light, each a blooming flower whose presence creates an ever more beautiful world.

BA is new to the approach of a protected Biosphere and I am sure the administrators will have growing pains while being flexible and positive.

There is a long history to these passes, isn't there? The Bioshpere passes are in use in BCS at Isla Espirtu Santo and Isla Partida and all over (the world) for many years. Primarily the passes reinforce the idea that we should not litter and we should protect the area, no collecting shells and specimens, leaving no trace of our visits.

In my experience in BCS at other locations, the passes are generally purchased only for organized visiting tours, individuals passing through are not obligated to purchase passes, however they can purchase the passes if they plan to use the resource fully, such as camping. Let's see how BA shakes down.


Very well stated-----I know that at San Ignacio Lagoon, when they pass out the bracelets, they take the opportunity to explain what you stated.

wilderone - 6-23-2009 at 11:32 AM

The respect and education for Baja's biosphere reserves starts with its residents. Yes, understandable - all the islands are protected, get a permit, leave no trace. However, I have personally picked up trash on several BOLA islands - most of which is plastic quart motor oil containers and plastic water jugs. Who is poaching turtles? I have personally seen turtle shells at Isla Encantada. A ton of broken glass on Isla la Ventana. And the mining will continue to be approved. There is much private land within the biosphere reserves whose landowners will perpetuate the problems that the fee and designation of a preserve hope to solve - illegal dumping, hunting, fishing, unwise agriculture, etc. The plan needs to start with a sound foundation of understanding and equal cooperation - not unilaterally applied to foreign tourists while the offenses by Mexicans allowed to continue.
And getting back to accountability - how are the fees now collected spent? Is there no such thing as a financial statement in Mexico? Why aren't the BOLA islands clean when a fee is collected to preserve them? Is anything done except collect the fee?

Cypress - 6-23-2009 at 11:43 AM

If the fee money actually goes towards cleanup/protection, it's well spent.:bounce:

longlegsinlapaz - 6-23-2009 at 11:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
Here's an informative site that denotes the problems within the biosphere preserve, and what they may hope to better manage it. There are some "solutions" proposed - killing all the feral animals is one.

http://www.parkswatch.org/parkprofile.php?l=eng&country=...


wilderone, thank you for having found & posted that!!:bounce:

While it may not be the actual regulations document, it went a long way towards answering most of my questions & I believe/hope many others' questions.

One thing that's apparent to me in SOME, but clearly NOT ALL posts is a tendency to forget this is Mexico. Mexico decides what is in their best interest & in the best interest of their people, so the "What's in it for me?" mentality needs to be left at the border. As guests, we are all subject to the laws of the country, just as the local residents are.

For those who wonder what's in it for them, I would sincerely hope that the site wilderone posted will have answered most of that for you. To me it says that by enforcing these already existing rules/laws, the plan is to get funds to educate/protect/restore/create/PRESERVE areas which should be considered to be & treated as national resources/treasures. To promote the health of these area for future generations rather than raping/plundering/overusing the resources available today with no thought of what happens when they're destroyed/depleted manana.

As the published document stated, many of these areas are very poor areas & don't generate much, if any, revenue to be used towards protecting, preserving & enhancing local resources. The money from the sale of bracelets will stay in those areas for that reason. That, to me, is goodness!

I can't say absolutely, but I sincerely doubt if 100% of property taxes stay within the community generating those funds. But I do know that many, many Mexican property owners do NOT pay their property taxes until forced to. What good does it do to place a lien on property which has been held in the family for generations & will continue to be held in the family for generations to come? Because of this, I personally don't feel that increasing property taxes for local residents would do much towards increasing local prosperity of any area as a whole. Nor do I feel it's fair. I can see the fairness in generating additional revenue which will be used locally to better manage the local resources which draw tourists to these areas in the first place. From that vantage point, it becomes self-evident what's in it for you/me/the local population/future generations of locals & tourists, alike.

I don't view these as NEW fees/taxes/charges since it's been stated several times that they aren't new regulations, what is new is enforcement in many areas.

It makes a LOT more sense to buy an annual permit if the annual fee is indeed around $20 USD as someone stated....I noticed there were varying daily fees quoted, but to keep it simply here, 4 days at the $5 Shari quoted would have paid for an annual permit. In the overall scheme of things, $20 a year for many who visit several times a year is a nit, especially in light of what's in that $20 for YOU.

Having now seen the document....I have a better understanding & personally believe this is a good thing for all the above stated reasons & for residents & tourists, alike.:bounce:

DENNIS - 6-23-2009 at 12:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy

My contention is with who pays the bracelets and for what activities. Does the family visiting from Santa Rosalia need to purchase bracelets for their kids who decide to go surfing? What about the mountain bike team from Jesus Y Maria? Are they required to pay the fee? What if a resident Canadian has friends visiting and they decide to go snorkeling. Do they need to pay?

From what I understand, based on the limited information provided, is that this fee is applied arbitrarily and that is my main contention. Why not just set up a toll booth at the Vizcaino turn-off and charge a fee there? Seems like an easier solution to me.


And, there you have it, folks. If it turns out this is as Zac suggests, it sets a lethal precedence which will be adopted all over the place. Tourism will suffer because some will feel abused for having to pay for the air they breath. If I have to pay merely to visit B.A., or any other public place, I wont. We already pay through the nose for using the paved streets with taxes from every litre of gas we buy. Enough is enough.

gnukid - 6-23-2009 at 12:06 PM

It's true. Bad habits are hard to break. We simply must begin and create an example for others to learn from and follow. Many will not change. We each make up our own reality.

Its confusing in mexico what to do with trash since there is often no organized trash collection system.

There is racism, division and denial on both sides of the issue of protectionism, but that doesn't discredit protectionism. The poor behavior of individuals reflects badly on them as individuals.

The people who litter, that's really their problem.

The people who clean up, who leave no trace, they make the world a better place for themselves.

I think you can reasonably point the finger at many people who fall short of the Biosphere goals however I doubt you would say the goals aren't worthwhile.

Personally I have had many opportunities to speak to tour guides and families who I saw littering or collecting specimens in the biosphere, I even saw biologists litter and they provided complex explanations about how animals live in trash etc..., few change their habits, but that doesn't bother me.

I know tour guides who collect the fee and don't contribute it to the association-they don't buy bracelets.

It's unlikely there will be any prosecutions of individuals who choose not to participate.

I bet those who participate and keep the area clean may also be ridiculed or even harassed but eventually over time their positive example will be appreciated and children and some families will follow the example.

If you don't want to contribute to the fee, I am sure you can rationalize reasons why you shouldn't and that's fine. The goals of the Biosphere are valid.

Tira basura en su lugare!

Osprey - 6-23-2009 at 12:37 PM

Kid, I really do not know how we all got along before you came along to enlighten us. Since you hit this board I have endured more lectures than a seventh year law student. I will admit my thinking was disorganized, muzzy on some subjects -- frankly, I did not know what I was thinking on some subjects. You have gone beyond the Limbaugh threshold to tell us where the bear shat in the buckwheat, why and what we should think about that AND what we should do if we had the resources and resolve. I don't know how to thank you. I won't even try.

gnukid - 6-23-2009 at 12:52 PM

Cool, I knew there are those that love a good fight, the insults, the attacks, the backhanded compliments, those who relish the joy of taking offense at everyone and everybody and responding in kind.

But I never expected you to be so open to dropping all that fun for the better. Thanks for all the u2us and support to make this place a fun community.

Osprey - 6-23-2009 at 01:05 PM

Somebody sent you a private communication? On purpose?

Santiago - 6-23-2009 at 01:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
I don't know how to thank you. I won't even try.


I had occasion to look up the definition of "sarcasm" the other day and sure enough, it said "see Osprey".

Bajaboy - 6-23-2009 at 01:19 PM

Just got home from Squidco where I bought my annual fishing license for Mexico. If you have any questions with regards to who needs one, what the regulations are, etc., let me know and I will send the info your way.

Now, can anyone send the specific Biosphere info to me?

Sharksbaja - 6-23-2009 at 01:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
It's true. Bad habits are hard to break. We simply must begin and create an example for others to learn from and follow. Many will not change. We each make up our own reality.

Its confusing in mexico what to do with trash since there is often no organized trash collection system.

There is racism, division and denial on both sides of the issue of protectionism, but that doesn't discredit protectionism. The poor behavior of individuals reflects badly on them as individuals.

The people who litter, that's really their problem.

The people who clean up, who leave no trace, they make the world a better place for themselves.

I think you can reasonably point the finger at many people who fall short of the Biosphere goals however I doubt you would say the goals aren't worthwhile.

Personally I have had many opportunities to speak to tour guides and families who I saw littering or collecting specimens in the biosphere, I even saw biologists litter and they provided complex explanations about how animals live in trash etc..., few change their habits, but that doesn't bother me.

I know tour guides who collect the fee and don't contribute it to the association-they don't buy bracelets.

It's unlikely there will be any prosecutions of individuals who choose not to participate.

I bet those who participate and keep the area clean may also be ridiculed or even harassed but eventually over time their positive example will be appreciated and children and some families will follow the example.

If you don't want to contribute to the fee, I am sure you can rationalize reasons why you shouldn't and that's fine. The goals of the Biosphere are valid.

Tira basura en su lugare!


Good words there Gnu. I wish this were true:
Quote:

I think you can reasonably point the finger at many people who fall short of the Biosphere goals however I doubt you would say the goals aren't worthwhile


However there are millions who think everythang is always going good. That may be true in THEIR lifetime but with that attitude, not in their grandchildren or even their kids(not goats).

The train to Cleanland has left the station folks. I hope many will hop on.:yes:

If those fees are collected by an official and accompanied with a real(looking) receipt, I'd duly pay.

It's very simple like hinted; put in signs that indicate where and what is up ahead, a biosphere with user fees. That should be spelled out in simple language(s). No excuses, everyone pays equally...:rolleyes:

Nobody wants to be interrupted in their "Lalaland", oops I meant "Canucklia" oops that's Bahia Ascuncion,sorry.:lol:

:saint:

ursidae69 - 6-23-2009 at 01:30 PM

In March 2005 my group purchased these bracelets before taking an island trip at BoLA and I was happy to pay it. We were even stopped by someone checking bracelets on the island, so the program has been around a while and sometimes enforced.

It is nothing new and I am happy to see it there. Any little bit for conservation helps. I'm glad they got you on board Shari.

ursidae69 - 6-23-2009 at 01:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
So many of us go to Baja TO GET AWAY from the excessive government regulations and rules and to leave civilization behind to get closer to nature and the 'real world'.

Now an area of Baja that so many Nomads have recently discovered thanks to Shari, is falling under the thumb of government... Will a walk on the beach be charged like watching a movie.. seriously???


It is sad that you are making Shari's thread political. I wish folks like you, supposedly an ambassador to Baja, would take your political views to the off-topic section.

DENNIS - 6-23-2009 at 01:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ursidae69
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
So many of us go to Baja TO GET AWAY from the excessive government regulations and rules and to leave civilization behind to get closer to nature and the 'real world'.

Now an area of Baja that so many Nomads have recently discovered thanks to Shari, is falling under the thumb of government... Will a walk on the beach be charged like watching a movie.. seriously???


It is sad that you are making Shari's thread political. I wish folks like you, supposedly an ambassador to Baja, would take your political views to the off-topic section.



What is all this if it isn't government inspired? How can the government be excluded in any decision to impose a tax?

fishbuck - 6-23-2009 at 04:14 PM

"Anyway, since our personal opinions of fishbuck have really nothing to do with the Preserve fees, we are going back and removing those posts. For the purpose of this thread, they were out of line. What fishbuck does, is up to him.

Again, this was not the place to express our personal opinions about fishbuck, so to others, we apologize. " JDTROTTER

I agree with the poster that this was an inappropriate place for us to express our opinions of each other. That was never my original intent.
Additionally, I made some statements that were threatening. And that is never appropriate. Here or in the real world.
I lost my cool and my good manners.
As a gentleman, I should be able to withstand any number of insults and not respond with violence or threats of violence. And unfortunately I failed in my responsibilty to BajaNomad and all the other members of the BajaNomad community and to myself.
And for that I am truly sorry.

Mike

tripledigitken - 6-23-2009 at 04:26 PM

It's just another example of Kalifornicating Baja.

Taxes/User fees with little observable benefit.

shari - 6-23-2009 at 04:54 PM

Whoa...sheesh...I go to san roque for a day and look what happens!!! Let's see, where to begin...I have some problems too with this newly enforced permit deal and apart from the extreme difficulty and costs in getting the permit for our business...it will be tricky to administer.

I have asked lots of questions and the answers arent very clear to me...alot of gray areas...the idea of a man using his criteria to charge people will be problematic....it will be difficult to charge everyone...so who gets off the hook??? surfers? family members? good friends?

Because Jaime lives in Asuncion...will our visitors get charged whereas the people who go to Abreojos get off the hook?

There is no signage anywhere about this.

I find it awkward that I have to charge our visitors but others dont...is this discrimination or favoratism?? Supposedly ANY person who doesnt live in the reserve has to pay...but it is unclear for what activities.

I am liking the idea of just charging everyone who enters the reserve the 46 pesos so it is fair.

But this is something we have to deal with, accept and I hope we can figure it out without too much hassle. I guess we will work it into our pricing. I imagine the funds may go towards an office here, maybe a patrol panga...time will tell I guess.

David K - 6-23-2009 at 05:12 PM

Thank you Shari!!!

You are using the old brain and will make it work and be fair to all who utilize your tourist services...

flyfishinPam - 6-23-2009 at 05:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jdtrotter
The good thing about the fees is that the money stays local---it is used for projects on the Preserve. I believe the same is true with the fees being charged in Loreto for fishing etc. in that Preserve.



sorry but this is not true, the $$ goes to the feds.

look up the conanp website for information
http://www.conanp.gob.mx/

David K - 6-23-2009 at 05:42 PM

Thanks Pam...

Osprey - 6-23-2009 at 05:50 PM

Pam, could you please point us to the particular part of that link that shows the money goes to Mexico. Did you mean "all park money", just your local Loreto money or money in biospheres in general?
The site is in Spanish, I read a little Spanish and i can't clearly read where it tells me where the money ends up. It is vitally important that the money stays where it does the most good. It says nothing of FONMAR or Tourist User Fees in general or particular that I can find.

fishbuck - 6-23-2009 at 05:51 PM

"Whoa...sheesh...I go to san roque for a day and look what happens!!!" Shari.

Ya, what's the idea of taking a day off to enjoy your paradise?

But, like I said before, one day of fishing with Jaun probably costs me atleast $500 including fuel,hotel fishing. So it's not $5 that's the issue.
But if all they did was draw a line on a map and call it a "Biophere preserve" and charge $5...
But as soon as fishing gets good I'll be there... with my $5:yes:

shari - 6-23-2009 at 06:26 PM

Bucky....no days off...Juan is working abalone out of san roque these days...they get 120 abs every day...14 boats...while I beachcomb, work out, read and make jewellery....ahhh paradise....just came in to welcome some visitors and get them oriented...have a shower, check mail and nomadlandia and now we're headed back out....so see ya'll in a couple days when I come into check how Andre is behaving himself...sounds like good surf this weekend!

DianaT - 6-23-2009 at 06:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by flyfishinPam
Quote:
Originally posted by jdtrotter
The good thing about the fees is that the money stays local---it is used for projects on the Preserve. I believe the same is true with the fees being charged in Loreto for fishing etc. in that Preserve.



sorry but this is not true, the $$ goes to the feds.

look up the conanp website for information
http://www.conanp.gob.mx/


Well, I certainly have no reason to not believe the Rep who is now in Bahia Asuncion. He is a VERY honest person who has worked for the Preserve for many years and he would have no reason to tell an untruth ---Loreto, I know nothing about.

Jamie has a very difficult job to do as this change is happening. There are bound to be snags along the way, but there also seems to be an attempt to smear him.

Yes, he and his family are very good friends.

Packoderm - 6-23-2009 at 06:44 PM

What I found so far:

http://www.parkswatch.org/parkprofile.php?l=eng&country=...

"Recent data indicate that the reserve receives 13,000 visitors per year. As a result, the Federal Government has received $US 19, 200 from use fees-the total economic impact is of course higher since these data do not include concessionary or tourist agencies earnings."






[Edited on 6/24/2009 by Packoderm]

DianaT - 6-23-2009 at 06:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
What I found so far:

http://www.parkswatch.org/parkprofile.php?l=eng&country=...

"Recent data indicate that the reserve receives 13,000 visitors per year. As a result, the Federal Government has received $US 19, 200 from use fees-the total economic impact is of course higher since these data do not include concessionary or tourist agencies earnings."






[Edited on 6/24/2009 by Packoderm]


Curious as to why you edited out your second quote???

Packoderm - 6-23-2009 at 07:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jdtrotter
Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
What I found so far:

http://www.parkswatch.org/parkprofile.php?l=eng&country=...

"Recent data indicate that the reserve receives 13,000 visitors per year. As a result, the Federal Government has received $US 19, 200 from use fees-the total economic impact is of course higher since these data do not include concessionary or tourist agencies earnings."






[Edited on 6/24/2009 by Packoderm]


Curious as to why you edited out your second quote???


It looked like general management data of the coastal areas rather than the biosphere specifically.

redmesa - 6-23-2009 at 07:47 PM

WOW! This thread has gained a life of its own...amazing how computers create personalities..."Marshal Mcluhan what the hell are you doin" ?
I pretty much know all the Bahia Asuncion people on this thread and, yes, even Jamie and fishbuck. Jamie has helped us out and was are very kind young man. In fact, all the people that I know in BA are truly decent folks and this thread is not reflecting that.
I, as most of you, love the biosphere and wish it good tending. I fear as with all taxes very little will filter down to the flora and fauna of the place ... hope I am wrong. As with all taxes and fees mostly we pay and trust that it will do good... sometimes yes and sometimes no. The whole idea of protecting places is wonderful and I think even if there are flaws in the process maybe, at least, it will remind us of the specialness of this particular place.

DENNIS - 6-23-2009 at 08:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken
Taxes/User fees with little observable benefit.



That alone is enough to have a "Tea Party."

Bajaboy - 6-23-2009 at 10:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jdtrotter
Quote:
Originally posted by flyfishinPam
Quote:
Originally posted by jdtrotter
The good thing about the fees is that the money stays local---it is used for projects on the Preserve. I believe the same is true with the fees being charged in Loreto for fishing etc. in that Preserve.



sorry but this is not true, the $$ goes to the feds.

look up the conanp website for information
http://www.conanp.gob.mx/


Well, I certainly have no reason to not believe the Rep who is now in Bahia Asuncion. He is a VERY honest person who has worked for the Preserve for many years and he would have no reason to tell an untruth ---Loreto, I know nothing about.

Jamie has a very difficult job to do as this change is happening. There are bound to be snags along the way, but there also seems to be an attempt to smear him.

Yes, he and his family are very good friends.


I am obviously a bit slow and naive...can you point out where Jamie is being smeared? From what I read, and correct me if I am wrong, the rules are vague and thus enforcement issues might arise. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

fishbuck - 6-23-2009 at 10:52 PM

One thing that has come out of this whole thing for me is that if I do buy a band, I will not buy it in Bahia Asuncion.
As far as I can tell, the $5 goes to Jamie and all he does is sit in an office in town and collect $5. That seems to be the total extent of the effort of the "Biosphere Preserve".
I would recomend that he hire new public relations people. The ones he has now("very good friends") aren't helping him much. Quite the opposite.

Bajaboy - 6-23-2009 at 10:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
One thing that has come out of this whole thing for me is that if I do buy a band, I will not buy it in Bahia Asuncion.
As far as I can tell, the $5 goes to Jamie and all he does is sit in an office in town and collect $5. That seems to be the total extent of the effort of the "Biosphere Preserve".
I would recomend that he hire new public relations people. The ones he has now("very good friends") aren't helping him much. Quite the opposite.


Come on Bucky-I thought you were a lover not a donkey:biggrin:

fishbuck - 6-23-2009 at 11:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
One thing that has come out of this whole thing for me is that if I do buy a band, I will not buy it in Bahia Asuncion.
As far as I can tell, the $5 goes to Jamie and all he does is sit in an office in town and collect $5. That seems to be the total extent of the effort of the "Biosphere Preserve".
I would recomend that he hire new public relations people. The ones he has now("very good friends") aren't helping him much. Quite the opposite.


Come on Bucky-I thought you were a lover not a donkey:biggrin:


Hey, I'm just trying to help the "Biosphere Preserve" man. You know, do my part for the pronghorns and ospreys and litter removal effort.
I'm trying to help Jamie.

I have a special charity that I want everyone to pitch in for too.
It's called the "Viscaino single mom Preserve" They have a couple of offices in Viscaino.
It gives the moms an opportunity to have a good paying job. And the money supports kids with no dad.
It's a good cause and I have never once heard anyone complain about the fee. In fact all the donors seem to be very happy. The moms too! Smiles all around.
I will be in Bahia Asuncion to personally collect $5 from everyone in town. And then I will personally deliver it to "Mom preserve" and make sure that as many moms as possible get a share.
;D

[Edited on 6-24-2009 by fishbuck]

Diver - 6-24-2009 at 06:19 AM

I will pay the $26 per year.

I pay more for a National Parks Pass each year.
I pay daily use fees for our local State and Federal parks.
I pay camping fees at all public campgrounds in the US.
I buy a snow-park permit to park at our ski areas.
I feed parking meters almost wherever I go.
I pay boat launch fees at many local launches.
I pay exhorbitant fishing license fees for each state I go to.
I pay HUGE sales, property and income taxes for all these things in the US.
In Baja, I pay much less for all these things.
I have seen the results of Jaimie's good work.
I will not let $5 get in the way of my Baja experience and friends.

.

woody with a view - 6-24-2009 at 06:25 AM

for brevity's sake, does one yearly bracelet include EVERY bioreserve in baja? or do i need a different bracelet for every turn along the coast?

Hook - 6-24-2009 at 06:46 AM

So, a family of five comes to BA for a week and there will be an additional cost of 25/day for the family or an additional 100/week for an annual for the family?

Just to wade in the water or picnic on the beach? WOW!!!! :o

And then they head over to Loreto the following week and it all starts over again????????:wow::wow::wow::wow::wow:

Plus, there's the injustice of not charging locals. WHO WILL HAVE MORE NEGATIVE IMPACT ON THE BIOSPHERE THAN THE LOCALS??

Do you really think their share of local/state/federal taxes will go to mitigating their environmental impact?

[Edited on 6-24-2009 by Hook]

Bajaboy - 6-24-2009 at 07:43 AM

So now I'm wondering about camping....does everyone have to pay an extra $5/day? So that $10 camp site now costs say $25 for my family of 3.....

wilderone - 6-24-2009 at 09:19 AM

"does one yearly bracelet include EVERY bioreserve in baja?"
From what I understand, it's any biosphere reserve in Mexico - there are 33 I believe.

Yeah - that's the real problem - the local people with their goats denuding the hills, the cattle grazing, and the miners. The monarch preserve is one of the biosphere preserves, yet illegal logging is destroying the butterfly habitat. What are the fees used for there if not for enforcement of illegal logging which is the so-obvious need? The Mexican fed. govt needs to show all people - citizen and tourist alike - what the money is used for - with signs, staff, results, brochures. They should develop a logo and put it on every trash can, truck, boat, fence, uniform, sign, etc. that represents a biosphere reserve destruction mitigation expenditure, and put the financial statement on a website showing where the money goes. Articles with an account of a year's accomplishments with reserve fees should be written and published in magazines and papers in the US (like Nature Conservancy, WWF, etc.). They need to work on the legitimacy of all this fee collection.

gnukid - 6-24-2009 at 09:43 AM

There are some good questions here:

You can write to Pronatura who works with the Nature Conservancy Parks in Peril who has worked in coordination with Mexico to create the Biosphere program policy and try to get some answers.

http://www.parksinperil.org/howwework/partnership/mexico.htm...

Pronatura

Director: Juan Carlos Barrera
Address: Aspérgulas N° 22 (antes Pino)
Col. San Clemente, C. P. 01740, México, D.F.
Telephone/Fax: (55) 5635-5054
E-mail:pronatura@pronatura.org.mx
Web site: http://www.pronaturane.org/

wilderone - 6-24-2009 at 09:59 AM

Excellent information - thank you. They'll be getting my letters!!

woody with a view - 6-24-2009 at 12:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
"does one yearly bracelet include EVERY bioreserve in baja?"
From what I understand, it's any biosphere reserve in Mexico - there are 33 I believe.

Yeah - that's the real problem - the local people with their goats denuding the hills, the cattle grazing, and the miners. The monarch preserve is one of the biosphere preserves, yet illegal logging is destroying the butterfly habitat. What are the fees used for there if not for enforcement of illegal logging which is the so-obvious need? The Mexican fed. govt needs to show all people - citizen and tourist alike - what the money is used for - with signs, staff, results, brochures. They should develop a logo and put it on every trash can, truck, boat, fence, uniform, sign, etc. that represents a biosphere reserve destruction mitigation expenditure, and put the financial statement on a website showing where the money goes. Articles with an account of a year's accomplishments with reserve fees should be written and published in magazines and papers in the US (like Nature Conservancy, WWF, etc.). They need to work on the legitimacy of all this fee collection.


way too logical to work in Mexico. the fees would be through the roof just so 1 peso would be left to be used on site.

onego - 6-24-2009 at 02:59 PM

Many benefits for the people of the Vizcaino Reserve are the result of the "cobro de derechos" and is $46 pesos a day,
this year alone:

Clean Up of 5 kilometers of beach and part of town in Bahia Tortugas. 35 people involved for 52 days, $3200 pesos for each one and a cleaner town.

Clean up of 4 Kilometers of beach and parts of town in Bahia Asuncion, 34 people involved for 52 days , $3200 pesos for each one and a nicer town.

The same goes for la Bocana and Punta abreojos

Thats for the clean up.

There are social projects suported by the Reserve with money from this fees


Bahia Tortugas, New dump place , bigger , cleaner and safer,

Bahia asuncion , 3 projects

La Bocana 2 projects

Punta Abreojos 2 projects and also in Vizcaino , San Francisco, San Ignacio and more places

Total of money for this projects $3 100 000.oo pesos

looks to me its a good thing this cobro de derechos

fishbuck - 6-24-2009 at 03:33 PM

A biosphere reserve is an international conservation designation given by UNESCO under its Programme on Man and the Biosphere (MAB). The World Network of Biosphere Reserves is the collection of all 533 biosphere reserves in 107 countries (as of May, 2009).[1]

According to “The Statutory Framework of the World Network of Biosphere Reserves,” biosphere reserves are created “to promote and demonstrate a balanced relationship between humans and the biosphere.” Under article 4, biosphere reserves must “encompass a mosaic of ecological systems,” and thus consist of combinations of terrestrial, coastal, or marine ecosystems.
Through appropriate zoning and management, the conservation of these ecosystems and their biodiversity is sought to be maintained.


I didn't see anything about charging visitors for local social programs and paying locals to pick up their own trash.

fishbuck - 6-24-2009 at 04:00 PM

Here is a list of reserves in the US:

United States of America
Focal point for biosphere reserves
Dr Barbara Weber
USDA Forest Service FIDR - I/NW
14th & Independence Avenue, S.W.
20250 Washington D.C.

Tel: (1.202) 205 1702
Fax: (1.202) 205 1530
E-mail: bweber@fs.fed.us





Biosphere Reserves
Aleutian Islands
Beaver Creek
Big Bend
Big Thicket
California Coast Ranges
Carolinian-South Atlantic
Cascade Head
Central Gulf Coast Plain
Central Plains
Champlain-Adirondak
Channel Islands
Coram
Denali
Desert
Everglades & Dry Tortugas
Fraser
Glacier
Glacier Bay-Admiralty Is.
Golden Gate
Guanica
H.J. Andrews
Hawaiian Islands
Hubbard Brook
Isle Royale
Jornada
Konza Prairie
Land Between The Lakes Area
Luquillo
Mammoth Cave Area
Mojave and Colorado Deserts
New Jersey Pinelands
Niwot Ridge
Noatak
Olympic
Organ Pipe Cactus
Rocky Mountain
San Dimas
San Joaquin
Sequoia-Kings Canyon
South Atlantic Coastal Plain
Southern Appalachian
Stanislaus-Tuolumne
Three Sisters
University of Michigan Biological Station
Virgin Islands
Virginia Coast
Yellowstone

As far as I know none charge any money. Only if you enter a park and it happens to be in a Biosphere Reserve.
So it appears that Mexico has taken an internationally approve ecological protection program and turned it into a charity program for the inhabitants of a Biosphere Reserve.

gnukid - 6-24-2009 at 04:02 PM

I've looked and looked and no where have I found any formal notice requiring a payment either, anywhere. As I mentioned from my previous experience, the payment is primarily paid by formal commercial users of the space for their commercial purpose, not for individuals. Again that's only my personal experience and my research after many years with Espiritu Santo and Partida.

fishbuck - 6-24-2009 at 04:35 PM

Rocky Mountain National Park

Fees & Reservations
fees & reservations includes:

Permits
Individual Entrance Fees

Automobile: $20 - Valid for seven consecutive days, including date of purchase.

Pedestrians, bicycles, motorcycles and mopeds: $10 per person, not to exceed $20 per vehicle. Valid for seven consecutive days including date of purchase.
Available at all Rocky Mountain National Park entrance stations.

So one of the finest national parks in the world only charges $20 per carload for seven days.
Or $10 per person for walkins for seven days.
And only when you enter the park through a gate.
About $1.40/day for an individual and much less for a carload.

I haven't ever been there but I doubt that there is trash all over the place.
And it's in the Biosphere Reserve.

DianaT - 6-24-2009 at 04:39 PM

Some sites with some of the laws and regs----google and have the pages translated if needed.

It is their country and their laws.

http://www.conanp.gob.mx/pasaporte.html

http://rbispm.conanp.gob.mx/boletines/g2006-junio.pdf

There are more if you google

The laws are explained as are the areas, and this is just a tiny piece with a rough translation.

Through it the funds that are collected are used for conducting
de actividades como limpieza de áreas, vigilancia, monitoreos, protección y activities such as cleaning up areas, surveillance, monitoring, protection and
acciones de restauración. restoration action

fishbuck - 6-24-2009 at 05:06 PM

"It is their country and their laws."

No doubt.

But a Biosphere Preserve is a Unesco (United Nations) approved area and it's purpose was never to create welfare programs for local inhabitants.
So what you're selling as a Biosphere Preserve is in essence a major ecological disaster area that requires massive clean-up and restoration.
And the $5 goes to the same people who created the mess to pick up their own trash.

Just be honest about what this really is.
The Mexican Government coersing $5 more from vistors (Americans) to pay for what the Mexican government is really responsible for. So we are involountarily bailing them out yet again.



[Edited on 6-25-2009 by fishbuck]

DianaT - 6-24-2009 at 05:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
So we are involountarily .....
[Edited on 6-25-2009 by fishbuck]


Visiting any part of Mexico is a choice----



[Edited on 6-25-2009 by jdtrotter]

fishbuck - 6-24-2009 at 05:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jdtrotter
Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
So we are involountarily .....
[Edited on 6-25-2009 by fishbuck]


Visiting any part of Mexico is a choice----


Is paying the $5 to visit Mexico a choice? I choose to visit but can I choose not to pay $5. No?
Well then I guess it's not really a choice is it.
If you ask me if I want to contribute $5 to clean up the trash in the Biosphere then that is a choice.
Can you understand the difference?

Osprey - 6-24-2009 at 05:26 PM

Ah, choices and more choices. How far does the $5 go with the ladies in the bar in Vizcaino? Joe Buck, if you stay on the main highway you'll have less user fees to pay and you can still satisfy some of your Baja habits and itches, not have to worry about "who got what and what was it for?" You'll know pretty well the answers to those questions after about 10 days.

fishbuck - 6-24-2009 at 05:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
Ah, choices and more choices. How far does the $5 go with the ladies in the bar in Vizcaino? Joe Buck, if you stay on the main highway you'll have less user fees to pay and you can still satisfy some of your Baja habits and itches, not have to worry about "who got what and what was it for?" You'll know pretty well the answers to those questions after about 10 days.


And this comment has what to do with the Biosphere Reserve bracelet?

Osprey - 6-24-2009 at 05:49 PM

Well the bracelet was to show you paid a fee as a tourist. Remember, way back in the thread? Go back Buck. Go back.
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