BajaNomad

Border Patrol Continues to Hassle Us Pilots!!

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steekers - 7-6-2009 at 11:42 PM

For those of you who love to fly south into Baja, the Border Patrol (CBP) is becoming a real threat to our basic freedoms.

Just this 4th of July we were questioned AND searched for some unknown reason just prior to departing Palomar Airport in Carlsbad, CA. This is where I fly out of and it has a customs office available 24/7 for pilots.

I filed online a day before using the mandatory govt website and thus telling the CBP just when we would depart. I filed for a 10AM departure and just as our bags were loaded, 3 CBP officers came up to stop us. They said it was a "routine inspection" and proceded to ask very personal questions. Then they scanned the plane with a hand-held device and started going through our bags. When asked what triggered this shakedown, they were mute. Gee, what did their databases have that would warrant such a search? Of course they won't tell you. After all the humiliation was over, and not finding what I am told they are looking for (money and guns) they let us depart more than an hour late.

I was later told by the regular staff CBP officer that the 2 other officers came from Lindberg just to check us out. The airport manager, tower, and the staff CBP officer all told these two officers we were regulars there and had been to Baja many, many times by air and ground and our passports had been scrutinized dozens of times coming into the US. These two CBP officers had some bogus info on us and they seemed determined to find something in our possession.

For those of you who do not fly, but drive into Baja, the recent actions of the Border Patrol toward us pilots should be of concern to you as well because the violations may soon be against you! The DHS (Department of Homeland Security) is wanting to extend the reporting of ALL travelers to Mexico as us pilots now must do.

Like most other citizens, I would not like to see another 9-11 but I do not want our US govt to violate our basic freedoms in the name of "security".

sd - 7-6-2009 at 11:48 PM

Doesn't seem like a "Violation" to me. Probably needs to be done more often to stop the weapons from going south.
I don't fly private. They can search my car, my bags, my airline bag, etc. No problem. A delay is not a big deal if the result is safer travel.

I of course don't know what happened in your case. My opinion is a general one.

I'm not a 'smoker', but do you remember....

Mexray - 7-7-2009 at 12:57 AM

...when, initially, cigarette smokers were quarantined to 'smokers' only areas...

Then, smoking was banned from public restaurants (not a bad idea), etc...

Then, smoking was banned in all public buildings...

Now, smokers are not allowed to 'suck on a cigarette' near a building's outer entrance...

Do-gooders in our vaulted legislature are now considering banning smoking in one's own home...and possibly in automobiles...and probably more places we haven't heard of yet...while they continue to enjoy the fruits of the high 'sin tax' revenues...

See any similarities with the searches here??? These Govt laws start on a very slippery slope, and continue till we've lost another freedom in the name of 'the public good'...how much protection from ourselves will Govt continue to shove down our throats???

woody with a view - 7-7-2009 at 05:44 AM

hopefully they don't want to "impress" upon you in the future how necessary their inspections really are..... adapt or else!

capt. mike - 7-7-2009 at 05:51 AM

much about this on BBP and here other threads - the Long Beach incident for one.
freedoms are disappearing....all in the name of "security".....your papers please....eastern Europe days here we come.

airmech - 7-7-2009 at 06:33 AM

steekers,
Are you a BBP member? If not I let me know and I will report it to Jack McCormick. I'm sure Jack is keeping track/reports on how often this happens. Last month, just by word of mouth, I know of five incidents. None of which BBP officers found anythingr.
So far BBP is 0 for finding anything in these searches. Too bad, they are wasting alot of money and time searching the wrong people. Maybe they will start feeling stupid after a while of not producing any results especially if someone like Jack is keeping track and writing letters to the congressmen.

bajaguy - 7-7-2009 at 06:50 AM

I would suggest that you pilot types start a letter writing campaign documenting these incidents and your concerns to your US Congressmen/women and US Senator(s) that represent your district......nothing rattles a government agency/employee more than responding to a request for information on an incident than a letter from DC

Hook - 7-7-2009 at 07:14 AM

Well, let's see, probably 80% of the time I cross the border by land, I am subjected to a secondary search by our CBP. Twice we were separated from our vehicle while the search went on. No probably cause that WE know of.

I see it happening to lots of other Americans while I am in there. Especially the Hispanic looking ones. I am not one of them.

Then there's the occasional boardings at sea off San Diego that started a few years back. All many of those boaters were doing was chasing a few tuna. Hard to see probably cause there.

Sounds like you pilots have gotten off pretty easy so far. Quit being so elitist. It's not like they can easily pull you over on your way down, now, is it? They have to intercede at the point most effective in their eyes, given the reality that cash and weapons are funding a very real threat south of us. Should you not be subjected to searches returning as well since there is no probable cause?

Tell me something; does all your baggage and you have to go through a metal detector search at Palomar? Just wondering.............

I'll tell you what I think is going on. They've identified some "frequent flyers" to Mexico and have told the CBP troops to make some very eye (and discussion board) catching searches. I'm sure they know about Nomads and BBP and XXX boards and they are using these high profile searches to get the word out that you could be searched at any time. It's a helluva deterrent to those who would attempt to break the law. Gets the word out; you cant just fly down to foreign countries w/o the potential for inspection any more.

Sorry, but I think Bajaguy's quote from Orwell shows quite well that we actually do live in an Orwellian world. Oh well.

Blame the religious fanatics, not those who would prevent their attempts, for all this.

DENNIS - 7-7-2009 at 07:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by airmech
Maybe they will start feeling stupid after a while of not producing any results



They arn't bothered by "feeling stupid." Their motivation is feeling powerful.

ElFaro - 7-7-2009 at 07:39 AM

If it's any comfort...my wife and I tow a toy hauler down to Baja all the time and although we don't do motorcycles or quads ( we like the hauler for dry camping) we get a mandatory secondary inspection every time. They are checking for everthing but mostly get us for some fruits or meat products we forgot to jettison B4 we crossed the border back to the US.

k-rico - 7-7-2009 at 07:59 AM

The original poster said

"Like most other citizens, I would not like to see another 9-11 but I do not want our US govt to violate our basic freedoms in the name of "security".

Violation? Are you thinking that it was an illegal search?

Also, the search probably wasn't a result of 9-11, more likely the result of American drug users buying drugs from the Mexican traffickers.

Not the war on terrorism, the war on drugs.

David K - 7-7-2009 at 08:03 AM

Mexico apparently has convinced the Obama that weapons are getting into Mexico illegally from the north on planes and cars, and would he please stop it. Since Mexico has started searching cars at the border in the main line of traffic (we saw this at Mexicali last Friday) maybe they convinced the U.S. to search our airplanes when we leave?

ElFaro:
As for what we can bring back into the U.S., here is the list (from a few years ago):

Lee - 7-7-2009 at 08:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
They arn't bothered by "feeling stupid." Their motivation is feeling powerful.


Power comes with the job. There isn't a sinister plot to harass people here. These guys are doing their jobs -- and aggressive police work is often rewarded. Kinda a quota system. More arrests, more promotion.

If you are not guilty, you have nothing to fear. They're from the Government. They're here to help.

They need to be professional. They don't need to be nice. If they were unprofessional, report them.

doing there job?

airmech - 7-7-2009 at 08:47 AM

Searching people who don't need to be searched isn't doing there jobs. First of all, I understand being searched coming back into the country. I don't understand being searched leaving the country.

The guns beings shipped across the border aren't being done in a 4 placed airplane with 4 people loaded in it going on vacation with no criminal background.

For you pilots, Jack with the BBP is keeping records and is our liason in writing formal letters to Congressman so please make sure your harassment is being reported to Jack.

LancairDriver - 7-7-2009 at 09:52 AM

"They can search my car, my bags, my airline bag, etc. No problem. A delay is not a big deal if the result is safer travel".

"Anyone who would give up freedom for a little safety deserves neither" Ben Franklin's words.

Thank God our founding fathers were made of stronger stuff and this attitude didn't prevail during the American Revolution. We would all be eating kidney pie and drinking tea and singing God Save the Queen today. These people were called "loyalists" back then.

Guns and Money

Lee - 7-7-2009 at 10:22 AM

The Officers are looking for weapons, drugs, and money. One Million Dollars will fit in a medium size suitcase and weigh 9 kilos/20 pounds.

It makes sense to search aircraft entering and leaving the US. Pilots have nothing to fear if they're not guilty of smuggling.

Consider the inconvenience as being similar to driving across a Border. Not a big deal.

DianaT - 7-7-2009 at 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LancairDriver
"They can search my car, my bags, my airline bag, etc. No problem. A delay is not a big deal if the result is safer travel".

"Anyone who would give up freedom for a little safety deserves neither" Ben Franklin's words.



And too many people were asleep when they passed the Patriot Acts---increase power, give up freedoms.

Seems that people still ignore the major loss of liberty and freedom until it affects them personally.

But then again, the crossing of borders has not fallen under the 4th amendment, so it seems from many court cases.

[Edited on 7-7-2009 by jdtrotter]

gnukid - 7-7-2009 at 10:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lee
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
They arn't bothered by "feeling stupid." Their motivation is feeling powerful.


Power comes with the job. There isn't a sinister plot to harass people here. These guys are doing their jobs -- and aggressive police work is often rewarded. Kinda a quota system. More arrests, more promotion.

If you are not guilty, you have nothing to fear. They're from the Government. They're here to help.

They need to be professional. They don't need to be nice. If they were unprofessional, report them.


Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
The original poster said

"Like most other citizens, I would not like to see another 9-11 but I do not want our US govt to violate our basic freedoms in the name of "security".

Violation? Are you thinking that it was an illegal search?

Also, the search probably wasn't a result of 9-11, more likely the result of American drug users buying drugs from the Mexican traffickers.

Not the war on terrorism, the war on drugs.



Lee and K-Rico make absurd assertions.

Weapons and drug shipments are among the greatest economies of the USA, both those sanctioned and black market. The numbers from munitions and drug sales are so huge it would boggle your mind and are known to make up the great majority of our economy. In addition, profitability from criminal prosecution make up another huge economy as police nd prison populations are in themselves profitable economies.

Weapons and drug smuggling are not operations run by packed-full 4 person small aviation flights? Obviously, to suggest that individuals such as these pilots, who have no means, motive nor demonstrable benefit, are the focus is an absurd theatrical and false assertion that few would consider nor believe except perhaps child-like thinkers. Certainly no sincere person would believe that these pilots are the purveyors of the worlds greatest economy? It makes no sense either physically or economically.

It seems those here that do promote unlawful harassment such as K-Rico and Lee are certainly not sincerely interested in reducing weapons and drug shipments and their interests belie their commentary.

If one were interested in who is shipping or smuggling weapons or drugs you can read it in the paper nearly everyday. We are talking about such a huge amount of material and money, it can not be hidden.

But of course, if I were to mention specific articles that note USA led and sanctioned drug and weapons smuggling admitted by the top administrators, then Dennis and Cypress would cry their grand tears of denial, suggesting we forgo any rational discussion for meds-har-har-har. Or of course SKEET would add that if it is written in the paper or the internet then it is certainly false as well.

Note no contraband was found on any of these idiotic excercises to intimidate and harass the pilots while tons have been found on CIA flights which crashed or were otherwise detoured and discovered. Not to mention the well-known and publicized Iran-Contra case, among a long list of others whose purveyors are still in office, apparently running the same operation.

Can we all do a Ronny Reagan imitation and say "Well, I didn't know."

The munitions and drugs smuggling is a multi-trillion dollar industry not the business of tourists on small flights.

Does anyone here honestly believe that this is a sincere desire or effort to halt munitions or drug smuggling? If it was wouldn't it be actually leading to discovery of actual illegal smuggling gangs?

Al G - 7-7-2009 at 10:59 AM

We are being searched before we enter Baja by order of BHO.
He ordered it as a promise to Calderon.
Do you consider pilots different from the rest of us.

gnukid - 7-7-2009 at 11:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lee
The Officers are looking for weapons, drugs, and money. One Million Dollars will fit in a medium size suitcase and weigh 9 kilos/20 pounds.

It makes sense to search aircraft entering and leaving the US. Pilots have nothing to fear if they're not guilty of smuggling.

Consider the inconvenience as being similar to driving across a Border. Not a big deal.


Look at this post and consider what it means when you read between the lines.

1) Lee is a promoter of unlawful search and seizure of clearly innocent tourists?

2) Lee quotes his knowledge and experience with the exact weight of a million dollars?

Weird.

Al G - 7-7-2009 at 11:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Quote:
Originally posted by Lee
The Officers are looking for weapons, drugs, and money. One Million Dollars will fit in a medium size suitcase and weigh 9 kilos/20 pounds.

It makes sense to search aircraft entering and leaving the US. Pilots have nothing to fear if they're not guilty of smuggling.

Consider the inconvenience as being similar to driving across a Border. Not a big deal.



Look at this post and consider what it means when you read between the lines.

1) Lee is a promoter of unlawful search and seizure of clearly innocent tourists?

2) Lee quotes his knowledge and experience with the exact weight of a million dollars?

Weird.


results of a 5 second search on google...
According to the U.S. Treasury, "In $100 bills, the weight of $1
million is about 22 pounds." [that's 10 kg.]
http://www.ustreas.gov/press/releases/rr2748.htm

The searches were ordered by BHO are you saying your MAN ordered something illegal ????:(

gnukid - 7-7-2009 at 11:55 AM

When we consider threats to ourselves and our well-being, we are continually told about terror as justification for breakdown of our legal system and justifying an increase of never-ending fear and the war on terror.

Today, we are remembering the anniversary of the 7/7 terror attacks in Great Britain. However, when we ask questions about who the terrorists are, who committed these crimes, when we look at the evidence presented, or ask practically any questions about the bombings on 7/7 on three rail cars and one bus, the answers are not there? How is it possible that no factual evidence exists to answer the questions about these terror acts or to support a case for prosecution?

Its upsetting certainly, but why? Well, today the lack of evidence is itself evidence to answer these questions about why no official inquiry has been made or presented by official prosecutors and investigators.

It's worth asking questions and looking for answers, even if they are not readily at hand, keep asking questions about the terror war and the known attacks.

Such as:

This documentary's questions about the 7/7 attacks

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-49436751052750977...

This citizen's questions into 7/7

http://bridgetdunnes.blogspot.com/


Note how these attacks, likely to never be prosecuted fully, are used to justify the search and detainment of law abiding citizens posing no threat with no evidence of any crimes whatsoever, for example, the CBP actions against the Baja Tourists. Meanwhile, the vast shipments of profitable contraband continue worldwide.


This CBC documentary on the Anthrax wars

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=anthrax+war&emb=0&...

Daniel Ellsberg Interview, author of "Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers"

http://antiwar.com/radio/2009/07/07/daniel-ellsberg-4/


[Edited on 7-7-2009 by gnukid]

arrowhead - 7-7-2009 at 01:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by steekers
For those of you who love to fly south into Baja, the Border Patrol (CBP) is becoming a real threat to our basic freedoms.

Just this 4th of July we were questioned AND searched for some unknown reason just prior to departing Palomar Airport in Carlsbad, CA. This is where I fly out of and it has a customs office available 24/7 for pilots.


I don't know who you are, but I just read a few of your older posts. You have about a half-dozen posts here about the location of little used and abandoned airstrips in Baja. You also have some posts about your participation in SCORE -- the sport of choice for certain drug exporting businessmen in Mexico.

I'd say you are ringing every bell down at CBP with your lifestyle and your posts. You probably should just get used to being inspected from here on out.

gnukid - 7-7-2009 at 02:43 PM

Arrowhead, Steekers is demonstrably innocent by the fact he/she was searched and proven to be innocent, according to their report here. However, your insinuation that 'guilt-by-association', therefore we shall dispose of the law written as the 4th amendment of the Constitution requiring a probable cause as reason for allowing search and seizure, endorses breaking the law?

http://law.jrank.org/pages/10050/Search-Seizure-Probable-Cau...

What moral ethical person would suggest we throw out the law for such absurdity?

[Edited on 7-7-2009 by gnukid]

SKIDS - 7-7-2009 at 03:16 PM

gnukid,
Who's side are you on ! If you get last minute info.
Its sorta hard to search a suspected terrorist plane when he's already flying and headed for downtown San Diego or towards the Naval facilities.
Let the BP or HLS do their job.

woody with a view - 7-7-2009 at 03:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Skids,

You can jump into the cesspool if you choose, engaging the hypocritical position that somehow reducing the rights of these innocent pilots (unlawfully) is somehow related to reducing the crimes and murders being reported, while in fact, the two have no relation other than to be polar opposites, apparently police are happy to bug innocents instead of investigating criminal action.

Instead, I would encourage your general support for and by the rule of law universally.

Your comments, along with the chorus to 'break the law cause its for good', are a sad assault on our historical law abiding traditions and have led us here, to a lawless, murderous, gang mentality, in which criminal behavior is the norm, and from which we must retreat.


remember where you live, gnu..... although i agree with your last sentence i don't think WE'VE quite evolved to the way your country does business, if you know what i mean?:light:

mtgoat666 - 7-7-2009 at 04:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by steekers
For those of you who love to fly south into Baja, the Border Patrol (CBP) is becoming a real threat to our basic freedoms.


Sounds like much ado about nothing. Have you ever crossed a border before? Doing so often comes with inspection by governments. The modern world comes with increased government security. You got no "basic freedom" to cross a border without inspection

Bet y'all regret the day you voted for Bush/Cheney. They are the ones who eroded liberties in quest to inspect every crevice of our private lives. Thank god for democrats!!

Anywho, sounds like no big woop if people are searching planes. Minor inconvenience that you should include a bit of extra time in your flight plan.

:bounce:

[Edited on 7-7-2009 by mtgoat666]

tripledigitken - 7-7-2009 at 04:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Bet y'all regret the day you voted for Bush/Cheney. They are the ones who eroded liberties in quest to inspect every crevice of our private lives. Thank god for democrats!!

[Edited on 7-7-2009 by mtgoat666]


Goat,

Let me get this right...........you think that you will have more personal freedom under the current administration? Let's see how things evolve over the next 3 years. I will be surprized if you are right.

ie,

Right to choose you own doctor
Purchase the car of your choice
Send your best employees to Las Vegas for a bonus
Pay you own employees what you think their worth


Ken

DianaT - 7-7-2009 at 04:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken

Let me get this right...........you think that you will have more personal freedom under the current administration? Let's see how things evolve over the next 3 years. I will be surprized if you are right.

ie,

Right to choose you own doctor --- ALREADY LIMITED BY PRIVATE INSURANCE, ESPECIALLY HMOs THAT ARE THE CHEAPEST. WON'T CHANGE---

Purchase the car of your choice -- AND JUST WHO IS GOING TO STOP YOU? ---UNLESS YOU CHOOSE TO CONTINUE TO BUY MAJOR GAS HOGS----THEY SAID SEAT BELTS WOULD END CHOICE IN CARS.
Send your best employees to Las Vegas for a bonus--NO PROBLEM UNLESS THE GOVERNMENT AND TAX PAYER MONEY IS BEING USED TO BAIL YOUR A&& OUT AND KEEP YOU FROM THE BANKRUPTCY CAUSED BY YOUR UNREGULATED BUSH ECONOMICS AND GREED

Pay you own employees what you think their worth--SAME AS ABOVE. IF YOUR COMPANY HAS TO BE BAILED OUT WITH TAX PAYER'S MONEY, THEN TAX-PAYERS SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT OF CONTROL---JUST LIKE STOCKHOLDERS.


Ken


Sorry for being in the quote box---just easier to answer the typical rightwing talking points that way. Now go back and really study the Patriot Act that REALLY caused a loss of freedoms and is directly related to this problem. And yes, both sides of the aisle are guilty of passing that one.

Politics are alive and well on all the forums.

[Edited on 7-8-2009 by jdtrotter]

mtgoat666 - 7-7-2009 at 05:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken
Let me get this right...........you think that you will have more personal freedom under the current administration?


yes, the current administration will uphold the bill of rights and the constitution, and will not pass any more totalitarian nonsense like the Patriot Act (aka the Cheney/Stalin-KGB Act)

peace out!

yes we can!

All your other questions about doctors, cars, vegas and salary are silly right wingnut reactionary blather -- it's a free market, you can shop where you want.

it is amazing that there are people out there that still defend the bush junta.

[Edited on 7-8-2009 by mtgoat666]

tripledigitken - 7-7-2009 at 05:06 PM

Diane,

Must be comforting for you to be able to pigeon hole people in boxes like you do.

Read the news, from any source you choose, and you will see the topics I mentioned are all being looked at by the government for them to control. Wait and see.

Sorry that you have to get so angry. Seems like I'll be getting some of your anger usually directed at DK, huh?

Ken

David K - 7-7-2009 at 05:30 PM

Steekers is good people... he has made attempts to meet us Nomads and besides me: bajalou, BajaRob, Baja Warrior, BajaCat, and many other Nomads have met him.

He HAD a Score Lite race buggy and even put a Baja Nomad and 'got baja?'stickers (steekers) on it...

Now for the political posters here: The Patriot Act was to stop more Americans from being killed, because foreign assassins could operate freely with all sorts of American 'freedoms'. The Patriot Act was never used agains American innocent civilians, only would-be terrorists.

The new gang in office are the ones who 'seem' to be using the Act against US... Oh, where are you ACLU on this obvious violation of freedom??? :wow:

Searching someone with no criminal record LEAVING the U.S. ??? Are not the officers hired to SERVE US and PROTECT US?

Steekers, Dave Deal, David K

[Edited on 7-8-2009 by David K]

IMG_1604r.JPG - 42kB

mtgoat666 - 7-7-2009 at 05:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The Patriot Act was never used agains American innocent civilians,


where do you buy your koolaid? i need to get me some of your halucinogen, it seems like it must be quite powerful. how long does the high last? :lol::lol:

[Edited on 7-8-2009 by mtgoat666]

Rainer - 7-7-2009 at 05:38 PM

Illegal Search??? Google "Border Search" for the answer

DianaT - 7-7-2009 at 05:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken
Diane,

Must be comforting for you to be able to pigeon hole people in boxes like you do.

Read the news, from any source you choose, and you will see the topics I mentioned are all being looked at by the government for them to control. Wait and see.

Sorry that you have to get so angry. Seems like I'll be getting some of your anger usually directed at DK, huh?

Ken


Not angry, that is the job of the Party of NO.

---pigeon hole, yes when the talking points are the same ones repeated over and over by the nut case talkers.

Control---read, I never said they were not enforcing some control----just explained why. Accepting bail-out money has consequences, and it should.

Your comeback, BTW, is typical of ignoring the issues----Now, go back and try to defend the Patriot Act, the real shredder of the Constitution.

Al G - 7-7-2009 at 06:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Savethefish and Al G now piling on with ad hominen (personal) attacks, instead of speaking to the issue? Lame argument.

Truth is truth...you need to address the necessities of life.
Your idealistic views are worrisome to adults.
I do not disagree with your assessment of need to protection of rights and freedom. You just remind me of a 1960's drugged out hippie on a soap box spouting crap, when his real issue was support of his life style. Nothing like carrying an issue to, and the past necessity. All you damn people out there that deserve something for nothing...good luck.

tripledigitken - 7-7-2009 at 06:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jdtrotter
Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken

Let me get this right...........you think that you will have more personal freedom under the current administration? Let's see how things evolve over the next 3 years. I will be surprized if you are right.

ie,

Right to choose you own doctor --- ALREADY LIMITED BY PRIVATE INSURANCE, ESPECIALLY HMOs THAT ARE THE CHEAPEST. WON'T CHANGE---

Purchase the car of your choice -- AND JUST WHO IS GOING TO STOP YOU? ---UNLESS YOU CHOOSE TO CONTINUE TO BUY MAJOR GAS HOGS----THEY SAID SEAT BELTS WOULD END CHOICE IN CARS.
Send your best employees to Las Vegas for a bonus--NO PROBLEM UNLESS THE GOVERNMENT AND TAX PAYER MONEY IS BEING USED TO BAIL YOUR A&& OUT AND KEEP YOU FROM THE BANKRUPTCY CAUSED BY YOUR UNREGULATED BUSH ECONOMICS AND GREED

Pay you own employees what you think their worth--SAME AS ABOVE. IF YOUR COMPANY HAS TO BE BAILED OUT WITH TAX PAYER'S MONEY, THEN TAX-PAYERS SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT OF CONTROL---JUST LIKE STOCKHOLDERS.


Ken


Sorry for being in the quote box---just easier to answer the typical rightwing talking points that way. Now go back and really study the Patriot Act that REALLY caused a loss of freedoms and is directly related to this problem. And yes, both sides of the aisle are guilty of passing that one.

Politics are alive and well on all the forums.

[Edited on 7-8-2009 by jdtrotter]


Diane,

Not angry?...............Your use of Capital Letters is yelling in the cyber world. Your using the quote my A&& is another example.

"to buy major gas hogs.." Your Tundra would fall in that category. You really should be in a Prius you know.

The administration is looking to review pay of publically traded companies not just the baled out ones. You know that!

Quit saying my "Bush, etc". Because I take exception to some of your points.

By the way our company has a medical plan by Blue Cross, a HMO plan, and I have my own doctor as a GP. That would probably not be the case with the government plan. So would many precedures for patients that are our age. Be honest, that is the case. Look at all government run medicene plans, ie Canada and England. You chances of a hip- replacement treatment would be questionable. Even many Democrats are rethinking the Obama health care rework.


Ken

DENNIS - 7-7-2009 at 06:45 PM

This whole thread has developed from an airplane search. What will people be saying when the subject changes to body cavities?

David K - 7-7-2009 at 06:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The Patriot Act was never used agains American innocent civilians,


where do you buy your koolaid? i need to get me some of your halucinogen, it seems like it must be quite powerful. how long does the high last? :lol::lol:

[Edited on 7-8-2009 by mtgoat666]


The koolaid is on your lips my friend...

I asked you this last time, and you didn't answer: Name someone (an American patriot) you personally know who lost any freedom under the previous administration. This includes things like false imprisonment... but not border waits, as we had them before 9-11.

bajalou - 7-7-2009 at 06:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jdtrotter
Your comeback, BTW, is typical of ignoring the issues----Now, go back and try to defend the Patriot Act, the real shredder of the Constitution.
s

This is one time I agree with you. And a lot of today's actions are a result of that law. Really eliminating rights for all of us. And I don't believe you can protect us by taking away our constitutional rights.

woody with a view - 7-7-2009 at 06:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
This whole thread has developed from an airplane search. What will people be saying when the subject changes to body cavities?


HELLO, ANYONE HOME!!!!

David K - 7-7-2009 at 06:59 PM

I felt safe (and was safe) under the past administration, following the attack on us. To give our constitutional rights as Americans to foreign terrorists who are trying to kill us all, is beyond me.

The gang in charge now is turning those anti-terrorism measures against us, and still getting some of you to blame that on 'W'... amazing!

[Edited on 7-8-2009 by David K]

DianaT - 7-7-2009 at 07:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken


Not angry?...............Your use of Capital Letters is yelling in the cyber world. Your using the quote my A&& is another example.

"to buy major gas hogs.." Your Tundra would fall in that category. You really should be in a Prius you know.

The administration is looking to review pay of publically traded companies not just the baled out ones. You know that!

Quit saying my "Bush, etc". Because I take exception to some of your points.

By the way our company has a medical plan by Blue Cross, a HMO plan, and I have my own doctor as a GP. That would probably not be the case with the government plan. So would many precedures for patients that are our age. Be honest, that is the case. Look at all government run medicene plans, ie Canada and England. You chances of a hip- replacement treatment would be questionable. Even many Democrats are rethinking the Obama health care rework.


Ken


Sorry about the caps---I know better and should have not used them---does sound angry. Inside the quote box was just lazy on my part. My apology.

Tundra IS a gas hog and when we sell our Baja home we will replace it and maybe before. We thought about a smaller truck, but the mileage difference is not much.

It is one reason we really like the idea of required mileage changes being enacted---it can be done in Trucks and SUVs. That is a good thing.

The key word is PUBLIC---that is a choice and will continue to be so.

You didn't vote for Bush?

We lost one of our favorite doctors when we lost our Blue Shield PPO and changed to the Blue Shield HMO---can only go to doctors who accept the BS HMO, and we are also limited to certain doctors within the group----Change needs to happen, and that is what the people voted for and even though my own health insurance is paid for, I fully support REAL REFORM, including the Public Option----

Not, about that Patriot Act--a real slap at our Constitution, and too many voted for it on both sides.

Udo - 7-7-2009 at 07:51 PM

Here is a photo of the border crossing on a Friday morning in Otay Mesa.
The Homeland Security check was well in force. Our vehicle did not meet the profile so we were waved through. But lots of trucks, vans and SUV's were pulled over and searched before entering into Mexico.
Personally I don't feel this is an intrusion into our freedoms just as I don't feel that the searching of an airplane prior to flying into Mexico is an intrusion. I think that compared to vehicles, the plane ratio of entering into Mexico is less than .1% than that of cars (i.e. for every 100 cars there are less than 1/10% of planes flying down). I would love to fly into Baja on a moment's notice, but I feel that there are an inordinate amount of extra hassels inherent when flying down there. It isn't like you can park a plane on any beach:no:, and besides being watched from the US, ther is also another watch when flying over Mexico.:O

airmech - 7-7-2009 at 08:34 PM

The point of this thread WAS the impromptu searching of small aircraft before they cross the border... When big money or drugs are going across it's probably in freight not the suitcase of a traveler to Baja. Certainly not in an announced flight. I can legally takeoff AFTER a search and land again (like Jamul SKIDS) before crossing the border. Do the CBP / whatever guys really think their quarry is this stupid. And no, searching a four seat airplane does not make America safer despite all the flag-waving-take-my-rights-please people out there.

[Edited on 7-8-2009 by airmech]

[Edited on 7-8-2009 by airmech]

Al G - 7-7-2009 at 09:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by airmech[/i
The point of this thread WAS the impromptu searching of small aircraft before they cross the border... When big money or drugs are going across it's probably in freight not the suitcase of a traveler to Baja. Certainly not in an announced flight. I can legally takeoff AFTER a search and land again before crossing the border. Do the CBP / whatever guys really think their quarry is this stupid. And no, searching a four seat airplane does not make America safer despite all the flag-waving-take-my-rights-please people out there.

so sorry for you...get familiar with it ...you lose...so say we all...by order of BHO
OH...forgot, nobody has taken my rights, but then I am not a whining 3 year old.

k-rico - 7-8-2009 at 07:04 AM

Why search small aircraft?

The only thing that has changed are the waypoints.

Get real --search private planes on the WAY OUT ????

beercan - 7-8-2009 at 08:19 AM

That is really gonna solve the problem.
Quote:
by crisco
Why search small aircraft? The only thing that has changed are the waypoints.

k-rico - 7-8-2009 at 08:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by beercan
That is really gonna solve the problem.


Quote:
by crisco
Why search small aircraft? The only thing that has changed are the waypoints.


Beercan, the drugs flow north, the money and guns flow south. I'll be more careful to spell things out in the future.


[Edited on 7-8-2009 by k-rico]

Hook - 7-8-2009 at 09:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The Patriot Act was never used agains American innocent civilians,


where do you buy your koolaid? i need to get me some of your halucinogen, it seems like it must be quite powerful. how long does the high last? :lol::lol:

[Edited on 7-8-2009 by mtgoat666]


The koolaid is on your lips my friend...

I asked you this last time, and you didn't answer: Name someone (an American patriot) you personally know who lost any freedom under the previous administration. This includes things like false imprisonment... but not border waits, as we had them before 9-11.


I am one.

By virtue of the Patriot Act, I can no longer move my money around from MMAs or CDs because I no longer have a bonafide street address in the US. The financial institutions have software that recognizes PMBs, etc., and the ones I've talked to say they have it because the Feds required it as a result of the Patriot Act. Three have told me this; Discover Bank, Ally and Zions Bank.

So, I'm an American citizen who has lost the freedom to shop financial institutions without having a street address in the US because of the Patriot Act. I choose not to use a relative's address for other tax reasons.

It costs me money each month, abiding by the Patriot Act and I have less freedom.

I've always preferred fine whine to kool-aid.

No need to spell any of your tortured

beercan - 7-8-2009 at 10:02 AM

ideas out --it's in the numbers -

a couple of hundred aircraft per day Vs. 100,000 ++++ vehicles per day ---where is it easier to hide and what will carry the most load ?

Quote:
by crisco
Beercan, the drugs flow north, the money and guns flow south. I'll be more careful to spell things out in the future.

mtgoat666 - 7-8-2009 at 10:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I asked you this last time, and you didn't answer: Name someone (an American patriot) you personally know who lost any freedom under the previous administration.


EVERYBODY lost freedom under the previous administration as a result of the patriot act and snooping practices developed by the bush junta. EVERYDODY, even you, dk

gnukid - 7-8-2009 at 12:34 PM

Lists of documented cases of real drug smuggling

http://www.google.com/search?q=cia+drug+smuggling

David K - 7-8-2009 at 05:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The Patriot Act was never used agains American innocent civilians,


where do you buy your koolaid? i need to get me some of your halucinogen, it seems like it must be quite powerful. how long does the high last? :lol::lol:

[Edited on 7-8-2009 by mtgoat666]


The koolaid is on your lips my friend...

I asked you this last time, and you didn't answer: Name someone (an American patriot) you personally know who lost any freedom under the previous administration. This includes things like false imprisonment... but not border waits, as we had them before 9-11.


I am one.

By virtue of the Patriot Act, I can no longer move my money around from MMAs or CDs because I no longer have a bonafide street address in the US. The financial institutions have software that recognizes PMBs, etc., and the ones I've talked to say they have it because the Feds required it as a result of the Patriot Act. Three have told me this; Discover Bank, Ally and Zions Bank.

So, I'm an American citizen who has lost the freedom to shop financial institutions without having a street address in the US because of the Patriot Act. I choose not to use a relative's address for other tax reasons.

It costs me money each month, abiding by the Patriot Act and I have less freedom.

I've always preferred fine whine to kool-aid.


Thanks Hook for a GOOD ANSWER... I agree that is a loss of an ability because funneling money to terrorist had to be stopped... Is needing an address for electronic banking really a 'freedom' that was lost?

I guess what I am asking for is a loss of constitutional freedoms, spelled out in the Bill of Rights.

Thanks for a good reply, none-the-less... Now, I am still waiting for a mature, honest answer from the goat.

clarifications

steekers - 7-9-2009 at 09:37 PM

I do not post much on this site for many reasons. Some of you make very stupid and unsupported statements and I won't waste my typing time to respond. However, I do want to clarify some things.

For anyone to suggest that my past posts involving SCORE racing, private strips, etc. would be a factor in the search is absurd. We have crossed the border hundreds of times and have gone into secondary 3-4 times for CBP to scrutinize us. Our passports get scanned each time and no flags are thrown. NONE of these times has CBP found any contraband.

The most important point ALL of you non-pilots are missing is that you and your traveling buddies are not (at the present time) required to tell the govt. what time and date you are going to Baja!!!!!!! You are not required to go on-line and list all the passengers, their passport numbers, dates of birth, etc. and THEN wait for an email to clear you to go!!!

Get it now???

As pilots, we are not elitist, just like to enjoy seeing Baja from the air as well as from the ground.

I am also a BBP member and have already discussed my incident with Jack and my detailed report will be sent to him.

Thanks to all who really know me in the flesh. To those who do not...be more careful on what you say about someone you do not know!!

Thanks Steekers--Ditto !!!!!!!!!

beercan - 7-9-2009 at 10:11 PM

Most on this board have no conception of the rigors of flying your own Airplane. The regulations, the training and the costs ----keep coming ! I fly and love it, but this and now the 406 costs and other factors make me wonder if I need to continue ?

airmech - 7-9-2009 at 10:24 PM

WELL SAID STEEKERS!

arrowhead - 7-9-2009 at 11:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by steekers
To those who do not...be more careful on what you say about someone you do not know!!


Thanks for the advice. And without getting too personal, I should tell you that this morning your T210 departed West Palm Beach for the Bahamas. Another international flight. If you really look at what I posted, you'll see I said it was your lifestyle that was ringing the bells at CBP, not your postings. You should consider that CBP is probably getting lots of data on your plane's landing locations. If you are still in California, then it looks like you are not the only one flying it.

capt. mike - 7-10-2009 at 06:32 AM

Michael - you and Bob and Airmech all put it they way it needs to be said.
well done!!

the AZ flying sams all take off this morning for Baja. i wonder how many will be delayed. hell, i wonder how many decided NOT to go this month.:fire::mad:

k-rico - 7-10-2009 at 07:46 AM

Perhaps the authorities are taking the attitude that it doesn't make any difference who is in the airplane, the fact is that a small aircraft is being flown into and out of an area that is a hotbed for smuggling and therefore they are going to search it.

mtgoat666 - 7-10-2009 at 09:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike
Michael - you and Bob and Airmech all put it they way it needs to be said.
well done!!

the AZ flying sams all take off this morning for Baja. i wonder how many will be delayed. hell, i wonder how many decided NOT to go this month.:fire::mad:


only illegal nefarious characters will cancel their trip due to prospect of minor search and minor delay. really, i can't see how a small delay for search is an inconvenience when crossing an international border. people traveling to a drug war zone should accept the reality.

last time I read the Constitution---

beercan - 7-10-2009 at 09:30 AM

The opening states---"Secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity" ....then the 4th amendment is attached.

I somehow recall that the "authorities" work for us the Citizens!
During the formulation period there was a comment period and if my memory serves this old body, there were about 12,000 comments from "us citizens' and about 99% were against the "authorities" proposal. Why then are we still saying that we have a 'representative" government when non-elected sh!ts are making LAW.
Quote:
by crisco
Perhaps the authorities are taking the attitude

mtgoat666 - 7-10-2009 at 09:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by beercan
The opening states---"Secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity" ....then the 4th amendment is attached.


hey beercan,
the border patrol is generally exempt from 4th amendment when searching travelers across borders. funny that you insist on building the wall and spending billions and billions of dollars on border protection, and you want all of the foreigners serached, but get all upset when it inconveniences you and a small group of air travelers :lol::lol:

tripledigitken - 7-10-2009 at 10:01 AM

Bit of a difference between legal US Citizens wishing to leave the ole US of A and illegals trying to cross the border without documentation.

mtgoat666 - 7-10-2009 at 10:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken
Bit of a difference between legal US Citizens wishing to leave the ole US of A and illegals trying to cross the border without documentation.


travelers are travelers. wealthy people in planes are not more special than poor people on foot.
plane travelers are not special, kenny boy, despite their (your?) feeling of being elite relative to foot, car and boat travelers.
lots of smuggling occurs via planes, and plane travelers should be subject to search just like any traveler, perhaps planes are even more prone to smuggling and there is good reason to search planes more than foot, car and boat travelers. perhaps not.
but people saying they will stay home rather than be inspected are cry baby prima donnas.

tripledigitken - 7-10-2009 at 10:21 AM

Goat,

I guess you just don't see the difference between


Legal US citizens wishing to travel outside their country

and

Illegal immigrants trying to break our laws and cross into the US from a foreign country.

BTW no "elitist" here I travel on the ground into Baja not by air.

Off we go.... but first....

Lee - 7-10-2009 at 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by steekers
The most important point ALL of you non-pilots are missing is that you and your traveling buddies are not (at the present time) required to tell the govt. what time and date you are going to Baja!!!!!!! You are not required to go on-line and list all the passengers, their passport numbers, dates of birth, etc. and THEN wait for an email to clear you to go!!!

Get it now???

As pilots, we are not elitist, just like to enjoy seeing Baja from the air as well as from the ground.


''The most important point ALL of you non-pilots are missing.... As pilots, we are not elitist.''

Sure reads like elitism to me.

Just a reminder, a Pilot's license is a privilege. If the FAA authorizes the CBP to search private planes filing a flight plan to Mexico, that probably isn't a problem for most pilots -- just those who think they have a handle on national security and know better than those hired to enforce public safety.

Border Patrol Continues to Hassle Us Pilots!!

With a subject line like this, I'm guessing that this post is meant to address ''pilot'' only Nomads, and, looking for sympathy.

Straighten up and fly right!

k-rico - 7-10-2009 at 11:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by beercan
The opening states---"Secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity" ....then the 4th amendment is attached.

I somehow recall that the "authorities" work for us the Citizens!
During the formulation period there was a comment period and if my memory serves this old body, there were about 12,000 comments from "us citizens' and about 99% were against the "authorities" proposal. Why then are we still saying that we have a 'representative" government when non-elected sh!ts are making LAW.

Quote:
by crisco
Perhaps the authorities are taking the attitude


Is the fact that you didn't quote my entire statement because you cannot deny the concise and obvious logic.

"Perhaps the authorities are taking the attitude that it doesn't make any difference who is in the airplane, the fact is that a small aircraft is being flown into and out of an area that is a hotbed for smuggling and therefore they are going to search it."

Will you guys stop thinking this is all about YOU.

It's about small aircraft flying in and out of a violent place that is part of the smuggling route.

Do they search planes flying to Peoria?

It's not about YOU and it's not about illegal aliens.

mtgoat666 - 7-10-2009 at 11:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken
Goat,

I guess you just don't see the difference between


Legal US citizens wishing to travel outside their country

and

Illegal immigrants trying to break our laws and cross into the US from a foreign country.

BTW no "elitist" here I travel on the ground into Baja not by air.


kenny boy, you suggest that upper middle class white gringo pilot flying with hidden cash should be held above poor mexican laborer looking for an opportunity.
all are suspect in the eyes of the law, but only the under dog gets my sympathy.
when you cross borders, all people should be subject to same level of suspicion.

btw, the pilots on this board all sound like whiners. aren't there any non-cry-baby pilots on this board?

Now you're talking

Lee - 7-10-2009 at 11:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
btw, the pilots on this board all sound like whiners. aren't there any non-cry-baby pilots on this board?


Been a Private Pilot since '91. Current as of last month. Fly Boys are a privileged bunch.

Pilot joke:

What are the 2 things you never want to hear a pilot say?

1) Where's that noise coming from?

2) OH SH!T!

mtgoat666 - 7-10-2009 at 11:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Let us remind ourselves that it is a well-known documented fact that none of these pilots in question have been demonstrated to be guilty of any crime while there are many thousands of cases of open investigations into smuggling of contraband by officers, CIA, CBP and police? And many guilty verdicts.


newkid,
ia greee with you that many in law enforcement are corrupt, but don't agree with you that all the pilots are saints. probably a bunch of the pilots are criminals, and as a consequence need to search all pilots periodically, even the prima donnas and saints.

but you post about corrupt law enforcement is a reminder that you should always watch your back when law enforcement shows up -- they are not your friends, and many are psychopaths that will screw with you. very few in law enforcement recognize or respect civil rights (they mostly consider civili rights an annoying liberal anachronism, ala dick cheney)

woody with a view - 7-10-2009 at 11:36 AM

the bottom line is being "allowed" to leave the country is not REALLY what's happening. you are being tracked in and out of the country. "they" don't want any unknown planes flying over the borders at all hours of the day and night.

you may call it losing freedom. the devil is in the details. when "they" start requiring me to tell "them" when i'm leaving to drive to work i'll understand, but until then piloting a plane is a priveledge (sp?) and i find it within the narrow confines of reality that "they" might want to ask ?'s before you take-off.

gnukid - 7-10-2009 at 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666


newkid,
ia greee with you that many in law enforcement are corrupt, but don't agree with you that all the pilots are saints. probably a bunch of the pilots are criminals, and as a consequence need to search all pilots periodically, even the prima donnas and saints.

but you post about corrupt law enforcement is a reminder that you should always watch your back when law enforcement shows up -- they are not your friends, and many are psychopaths that will screw with you. very few in law enforcement recognize or respect civil rights (they mostly consider civili rights an annoying liberal anachronism, ala dick cheney)


The issue is simple, the target of suspicion oof smuggling or terrorism is not the general civil population. There is no preponderance of evidence to suggest that the general population is smuggling contraband while it is well documented repeatedly that the CIA, BP and local Police are involved.

Certainly every member of congress knows this is the case, as do the leaders of every country, as do most citizens, the only ones to suggest otherwise are those that seek to increase policing of lawful individuals and distract from the issue that we have a serious long term issue. The only real threat to the drug smuggling is the legalization of drugs which would impact the drug smuggling, arms and money laundering not to mention police and prison budgets.

The enemy of this massive economy based on black contraband operations are legal efforts to formalize these economies or reduce them. The enemy is not the flying SAMS nor the general population of tourists to Baja, that assertion is a transparent self-serving lie made by those who benefit and profit from the illegal trade, the drug wars and the war on terror.

Do a search on drug and arms smuggling. Look at the results of reports worldwide across all media. There is a long list of cases of CIA, BP, and local Police cases of corruption as well as many documented cases where there was no prosecution such as the case of Barry Seal.

The evidence exists that the CIA is a largely responsible for drugs and weapons smuggling and has been doing so for long long time throughout the world. Among the long list of cases are the well known Iran Contra case which was discovered by accident when Eugene Hasenfus' plane crashed. The CIA admitted their were largely responsible for flooding LA with crack cocaine. These same figures and operations apparently continue unabated.

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/12/03/us/man-killed-in-mexican-c...

http://articles.latimes.com/keyword/iran-contra-hearings

These truths of contraband smuggling are in the common knowledge-base of most citizens.

I am certainly not against people making profits legally, I support each person's desire to work and earn a living legally. I do believe that the misdirection of these important resources of our tax dollars away from the issue and instead toward the false concept that aggressive harassment of innocent civilians is somehow required, beneficial or helpful is beyond my or any reasonable person's ability to accept. It is a transparent lie.

I would encourage the general prosecution of all the crimes we know of to the full extent of the law including internal cases of government sponsored contraband smuggling while we maintain our respect for the constitutional law as we have all sworn to uphold and protect.

Obviously I fear the real threat to our well being is the mishandling of our taxes to further corruption and the erosion of the rule of law. This is also the general consensus and is clear to practically everyone.

Cypress - 7-10-2009 at 12:43 PM

Oh well! So you've got to submit to an extra level of security checks. You fly across the border, land where ever you want. No check points. :biggrin: Boo Hoo! Cry me a river.:D

I see one hyprocrite chime in ----

beercan - 7-10-2009 at 12:45 PM

I guess that if you really are a pilot, then your certificate was "handed" to you . Your time and training was free and you didn't lift a finger to earn anything !

Sounding like a librul, I"feel" that I earned the "privilege"or right to fly my airplane . Look at my post about our Constitution and the "pursuit of happiness".

The first documented cases of this governmental harassment were with drawn and pointed weapons. Not one case since the start of this harassment has produced any violations to my knowledge.

Boats and vehicles (private) are next. "Your papers please "----
Quote:
by leeky
Sure reads like elitism to me.

"I didn't do anything when they came for my neighbor, cause I drove a vehicle and didn't fly a elite airplane"...........

beercan - 7-10-2009 at 01:07 PM

andd I didn't know about the "relocation camps"


http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/Political-oppositi...

[Print] [Email]
Political opposition is not a hate crime
By: Examiner Editorials

July 10, 2009
Attorney General Eric Holder talks with Deputy Attorney General for Legislative affairs Judith Applebaum on Capitol Hill in Washington, Thursday, June 25, 2009, prior to his testifying before the Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on hate crimes legislation. (AP Photo/Harry Hamburg)

What's wrong with this picture? The federal government spends billions on homeland security, but apparently can't stop foreigners from illegally crossing the border or overstaying their visas. The Obama administration wants to bring violent terrorists captured overseas to the mainland and close the military detention center at Guantanamo Bay. Yet in the latest bizarre twist, legislation quietly making its way through Congress would give the White House power to categorize political opponents as hate groups and even send Americans to detention centers on abandoned military bases.

Rep. Alcee Hastings - the impeached Florida judge Nancy Pelosi tried to install as chairman of the House Intelligence Committee until her own party members rebelled - introduced an amendment to the defense authorization bill that gives Attorney General Eric Holder sole discretion to label groups that oppose government policy on guns, abortion, immigration, states' rights, or a host of other issues. In a June 25 speech on the House floor, Rep. Trent Franks, R-AZ, blasted the idea: "This sounds an alarm for many of us because of the recent shocking and offensive report released by the Department of Homeland Security which labeled, arguably, a majority of Americans as 'extremists.'"

Another Hastings bill (HR 645) authorizes $360 million in 2009 and 2010 to set up "not fewer than six national emergency centers on military installations" capable of housing "a large number of individuals affected by an emergency or major disaster." But Section 2 (b) 4 allows the Secretary of Homeland Security to use the camps "to meet other appropriate needs" - none of which are specified. This is the kind of blank check that Congress should never, ever sign.

It's not paranoid to be extremely wary of legislation that would give two unelected government officials power to legally declare someone a "domestic terrorist" and send them to a government-run camp. After all, the federal government has done exactly this sort of thing before. During World War II, more than 120,000 law-abiding Japanese Americans were rounded up by the government and confined for four years in ten internment camps surrounded by barbed wire and armed guards. Joy Kogawa chronicled the trauma her family experienced firsthand under FDR's executive order: "Families were made to move in two hours. Abandoned everything, leaving pets and possessions at gun point..."

It was wrong then, and it would be doubly wrong now should members of Congress somehow fail to learn from past mistakes.

k-rico - 7-10-2009 at 01:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by beercan
The first documented cases of this governmental harassment were with drawn and pointed weapons. Not one case since the start of this harassment has produced any violations to my knowledge.


Well then maybe they should inspect more airplanes. They're falling out of the sky.

Drugs and cash found on crashed plane.


[Edited on 7-10-2009 by k-rico]

Is there a problem, Officer? Yes, I thought it was my Constitutional Right to fly in Federal Airways

Lee - 7-10-2009 at 02:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Lee admits he knows the weight of million dollars in a sack, he pilots planes and was previously or is still an officer or agent of the US government? Hypocrite.


I didn't write ''sack.'' I wrote that a medium size suitcase weighing 20 pounds would hold $1 Million Dollars (in $100 bills, of course). Or, the size of a 15'' CRT TV. NOT uncommon knowledge in law enforcement.

Hypocrite?

Your knowledge of "controlled and uncontrolled

beercan - 7-10-2009 at 03:14 PM

airspace" is lacking ---you may fly across this entire country without "permission or any contact with the feds. No inspections as you cross state lines, or permits required.No flight plans are necessary.
Quote:
by leeky
Is there a problem, Officer? Yes, I thought it was my Constitutional Right to fly in Federal Airways

mtgoat666 - 7-10-2009 at 04:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
You know full well this is discussion is about the US 4th amendment rights of the individual pilots who have been subjected to aggressive action with guns drawn pointed at the lawful citizens under no suspicion and the question of unlawful search and seizure without 'probable cause'.


hey newkid,
the cbp is in many ways expempt from 4th amend when it comes to inspecting border crossers.
why are you defending cry baby pilots? in this case the pilots are clearly wrong and simply whining due to their false sense of entitlement.

gnukid - 7-10-2009 at 05:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
You know full well this is discussion is about the US 4th amendment rights of the individual pilots who have been subjected to aggressive action with guns drawn pointed at the lawful citizens under no suspicion and the question of unlawful search and seizure without 'probable cause'.


hey newkid,
the cbp is in many ways expempt from 4th amend when it comes to inspecting border crossers.
why are you defending cry baby pilots? in this case the pilots are clearly wrong and simply whining due to their false sense of entitlement.


Aha I say, there you have it! You claim that the 4th ammendment rights of the US Law and Constitution are somehow not applicable, only as you see fit in violation of the US Law? Hmmm and your newly assigned targets are these distracting lawful Pilot guys targeted as a great risk to you, while the true thieves are apparently shielded, because why? Puesporquepues?

mtgoat666 - 7-10-2009 at 05:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
You know full well this is discussion is about the US 4th amendment rights of the individual pilots who have been subjected to aggressive action with guns drawn pointed at the lawful citizens under no suspicion and the question of unlawful search and seizure without 'probable cause'.


hey newkid,
the cbp is in many ways expempt from 4th amend when it comes to inspecting border crossers.
why are you defending cry baby pilots? in this case the pilots are clearly wrong and simply whining due to their false sense of entitlement.


Aha I say, there you have it! You claim that the 4th ammendment rights of the US Law and Constitution are somehow not applicable, only as you see fit in violation of the US Law? Hmmm and your newly assigned targets are these distracting lawful Pilot guys targeted as a great risk to you, while the true thieves are apparently shielded, because why? Puesporquepues?


i already told, dude, that i trust neither pilots, cops, firemen or soldiers. all are human, so 1/3 are morally challenged or psychopaths.
why do you maintain they are "lawful pilots?" are you stupid? do you not know human nature? pilots are prone to crime same as car and boat drivers.

airmech - 7-10-2009 at 05:36 PM

Ok Goat, now you really have my goat. The current method of stopping pilots that announce their intention to cross the border is ludicrous. It is legal to stop AFTER the inspection and then pick up the "contraband" if that was the intention of the flight. Stopping these announced flights does as much good as stopping cars randomly at a stoplight in San Diego. But it does pee off lawabiding pilots that are supposed to have their mind on the flight ahead and not thinking about the a**hole that was just pointing a gun at them for no reason.

airmech - 7-10-2009 at 08:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by woody in ob
the bottom line is being "allowed" to leave the country is not REALLY what's happening. you are being tracked in and out of the country. "they" don't want any unknown planes flying over the borders at all hours of the day and night.

you may call it losing freedom. the devil is in the details. when "they" start requiring me to tell "them" when i'm leaving to drive to work i'll understand, but until then piloting a plane is a priveledge (sp?) and i find it within the narrow confines of reality that "they" might want to ask ?'s before you take-off.


Just by writing this its obvious you have no clue what you're talking about. For one, Single engine VFR aircraft can't fly to mexico at night by mexican law not ours. Second, the US border patrol never let us just "freely" cross the border to the US during all hours of day and night as you think. The CBP can "ask questions" of me all they want without guns. You should stay out of the conversation until you get a clue.

LancairDriver - 7-10-2009 at 10:32 PM

The level of ignorance here warrants a comment on the "cry baby pilots" that apparently has stirred more than a little bit of jealousy.

To mention just a few voluntary services. These "cry babies" donate time and money flying medical and dental help to those who otherwise would have no access to health care in remote locations throughout Baja. They also fly accident victims, provide food and water and supplies in floods such as occurred in Mulege and on the mainland last year. Also search and rescue missions when asked. All of this is done at their own expense which they ask nothing for.

Every private airplane flying into Baja for years has had to file a flight plan with the FAA with their route of flight to Mexico and their intended Mexican port of entry. The Mexicans are notified by the FAA that the airplane is coming and they better show up as scheduled. If not there is some explaining to do.
They are then subject to a search similar to "secondary" at every airport by Mexican authorities.

The Mexicans then require all passengers to buy the tourist permit and file a flight plan, each of which must be purchased. Although the tourist permit is the same as with ground travel and good for 180 days, it must be surrendered upon leaving the country even if you leave the next day. You must buy one each time you enter Mexico. How would the ground travelers like that? Or file a travel plan to each of your destinations?

Every time you stop for fuel or go to a different destination you must pay for another flight plan. At each destination you will be met by Mexican Military, and flight plan and papers will all be checked.

The latest requirement by CBP simply adds another unnecessary step to the process and makes it that much more difficult to fly to Mexico. If the Mexicans think money and guns are being flown into the country then why haven't they found any private planes smuggling since they have always had first shot at inspecting incoming airplanes? Every private airplane has always had to check back into the US under very strict rules and under radar control incoming from Mexico.

I know, I know, the same ilk knocking pilots will still think those elitists deserve all of the harassment that can be mustered.

Class E & G Airspace: STILL NOT a Constitutional Right!

Lee - 7-11-2009 at 12:02 AM

Basic reading and comprehension skills aren't your strong suit, eh, plsscan?

Reread my post. I said ''Federal Airways'' -- as in Controlled Airspace --

Take your TROLL attitude back to OT. Your insults and name calling don't belong here.
Quote:
Originally posted by beercan
Your knowledge of "controlled and uncontrolled
airspace" is lacking ---you may fly across this entire country without "permission or any contact with the feds. No inspections as you cross state lines, or permits required.No flight plans are necessary.
Quote:
by leeky
Is there a problem, Officer? Yes, I thought it was my Constitutional Right to fly in Federal Airways

G.....??? You forgot F , boy !!!

beercan - 7-11-2009 at 07:32 AM

Quote:

e-CFR Data is current as of July 9, 2009 Title 14: Aeronautics and Space PART 71—DESIGNATION OF CLASS A, B, C, D, AND E AIRSPACE AREAS; AIR TRAFFIC SERVICE ROUTES; AND REPORTING POINTS Browse Previous | Browse Next Subparts F–G [Reserved]

mtgoat666 - 7-11-2009 at 07:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LancairDriver
The latest requirement by CBP simply adds another unnecessary step to the process and makes it that much more difficult to fly to Mexico.


how is an inspection "that much more difficult?"
really, you sound like you are still crying. are you collicky?

p.s. i like your self-desried sainthood. wonderful ego you got there

[Edited on 7-11-2009 by mtgoat666]

Boo hoo...

Lee - 7-11-2009 at 04:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
When I think of those soldiers who are sent to war and have lost their lives fighting for what they believed was the defense of our way of life and the constitution and then you see this guy Lee who would use any distorting tactic imaginable to take away those rights to destroy the US and its citizens, arrogantly for the benefit of a few as opposed to the whole, it really is disgusting and pure evil.


Someone here is delusional. It ain't me.

Me arrogant?

Tell me again why you started the name calling?

gnukid - 7-11-2009 at 05:35 PM

I said that your comments were "Hypocrite", I think that's pretty weak as charge really.

I asked you to consider that point and your oath to protect the constitution and protect and serve the people, but you have dodged the pertinent questions. Why?

grmpb - 7-11-2009 at 07:04 PM

great! an online version of pro wrestling! i love it!:P

DENNIS - 7-11-2009 at 07:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by grmpb
great! an online version of pro wrestling! i love it!:P



Yeah, Man..........Lots of step-over toe holding taking place in this thread.

capt. mike - 7-12-2009 at 07:10 AM

Well Said LancairDriver!!

the Goat and others like Lee will never get it - why bother.

i'm gonna go fly for an hour right now. For those that don't enjoy the thrill of private recreational flying... too bad - you're missing out on a level of grand adventure like no other.

And Beercan is right as usual. there is enough uncontrolled airspace across the USA to fly coast to coast and border to border without restrictions except those routinely applicable under part 91 we have to follow no matter what.

Howard - 7-12-2009 at 07:53 AM

With all this venom on this peaceful web site, I expect a dead turtle, Ramuna, Olivia and Mike to post shortly.
.

What's to get? Majority of pilots accept New Rules -- old pilots whine a lot and talk about the OLD DAYS

Lee - 7-12-2009 at 08:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike
the Goat and others like Lee will never get it - why bother.


Maybe YOU don't get it.

It's a known fact nomads don't like rules. That's why nomads like Mexico. Make the rules up as you go.

Maybe nomad + pilot is a bad combination? Fly by the seat of your pants, under radar, answer to no one. Like the old days?

There's a reason airspace is heavily regulated. Go no further than 5-10-20 years to know that.

Until last week, I didn't know that planes leaving US airspace did NOT check in with customs. My first thought was why has it taken so long for that to happen?

Everyone want's tighter borders, less drugs, guns and money coming and going, but nomad pilots want an exemption? Less rules? More rules but leave pilots flying South alone?

I'm missing something here -- I'm sure General Chicken Hawk will have the last word.

gnukid - 7-12-2009 at 11:33 AM

These cases of CBP within the interior of the US harassing lawful citizens is not about personalities. It is not about guilt by association nor stopping illegal contraband.

The issue that was raised is about the proper use of policing, so please stop making this legal discussion personal or personality based.

[Edited on 7-12-2009 by gnukid]

bajalou - 7-12-2009 at 11:43 AM

The next step will be for all land based travelers to check in with CBP before being allowed to drive into Canada or Mexico.

I fought the law, and the law won

Lee - 7-12-2009 at 01:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
These cases of CBP within the interior of the US harassing lawful citizens is not about personalities.
[Edited on 7-12-2009 by gnukid]


It's clear that there are many here who don't like cops, Mexican and otherwise.

This thread started because a pilot claims being ''hassled'' by CBP. That hasn't been proven and I don't believe that happened.

You are wrong that it isn't about personalities. I'm guessing this pilot had an attitude at the time of the search and the CBP officers saw it. Tsk. Tsk.

I think a cop with an attitude is disrespectful to a civilian -- but it's not unlawful.
Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
The issue that was raised is about the proper use of policing, so please stop making this legal discussion personal or personality based.


Allegations of harassment IS a legal issue and since you claim ''proper use of policing'' is the real issue, maybe you can define what ''proper use'' is? You sound like you're an expert on law and CBP search procedures.

'Supp with that?
Quote:
Originally posted by Skeeters
These two CBP officers had some bogus info on us and they seemed determined to find something in our possession.


So, Skeeters doesn't explain why CBP had ''bogus'' info. He does know they had info -- and that info warranted a search. Sorry about that.

He claims CBP was ''determined to find something..." Looks like thorough police work.

Obviously, nothing was found, Skeeters was free to go an hour later, and there might be a question as to what will happen next time. More searches? More ''bogus'' information?

I could be wrong here. I'm guessing that Skeeters didn't like the CBP officers and that they didn't like him.

Stay tuned.

Lee and the others are still clueless!

steekers - 7-12-2009 at 09:02 PM

Lee- You are doing a lot of guessing as to what happened to me that day!! You will never know. So until you have the facts, just shut up.

This is my last post on this thread as it is being taken over by idiots, marooons and TROLLS who are truely clueless.

[Edited on 7-13-2009 by steekers]

arrowhead - 7-12-2009 at 10:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by steekers
This is my last post on this thread as it is being taken over by idiots and marooons who are truely clueless.


That's a triple redundancy. Kind of like saying a "dead, lifeless, cadaver."
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