BajaNomad - Army Checkpoints

Army Checkpoints

Bajahowodd - 7-15-2009 at 12:07 PM

I have an observation and a question concerning our recent trip top to bottom and back. There have been other threads dealing with certain issues concerning the checkpoints. I just want to go on record as saying that this trip found the most pleasant and even fun encounters with the military. We had guys laughing and joking with us. One fellow even went through the CDs in our collection giving us his personal opinion of his likes and dislikes. We offfered one in particular, but he refused to take it. On the other hand, personal sized bags of chips were a big hit. Here's my question: Can anyone tell me the minimum age to join the military in Mexico? I ask because in almost every stop, it really appeared we were dealing with teens. Sweet teens. That being said, we had to wonder as to the training these guys have received. To us, there seemed to be a disconnect between these smiling young men, and their supposed need to be able to battle the hardened criminals of the cartels.

bajalou - 7-15-2009 at 12:19 PM

Don't know the ages of the soldiers, but I can hear them practicing on the gun range, and using hand grenades so I expect they are proficient at doing their job.

postholedigger - 7-15-2009 at 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I ask because in almost every stop, it really appeared we were dealing with teens. Sweet teens. That being said, we had to wonder as to the training these guys have received. To us, there seemed to be a disconnect between these smiling young men, and their supposed need to be able to battle the hardened criminals of the cartels.

They really are just kids and I don't even know if there is a disconnect between them being kids and being on the front line. I'm guessing they'd react the same way any other teenager would when suddenly placed in the line of fire. I really feel for them.

bajalou - 7-15-2009 at 12:25 PM

From Wikipedia

According to the CIA World Fact book, Mexico's available military manpower is 20,000,000 (males age 18-49, 2005 est.), with 19,058,337 males fit for military service, and 1,063,233 males annually reaching military service age. Since 2000, women have been allowed to volunteer for military service. Currently, Mexico's armed forces number some 620,400, including the reserves. Mexico's military is in two branches, the National Defense Secretariat (Army and Air Force) and the Navy Secretariat (Navy, Naval Air Force, Marines).

So from that, seems like 18 is minimum age.

One thing I have to remember - The older I get, the younger they look.

DENNIS - 7-15-2009 at 12:32 PM

They probably are kids. Conscripted kids at that. There's a lot of southern, indigenous blood on the front lines of the north. Used to be, probably still is, a draftee from the south of Mexico was relocated to the farthest point from home, otherwise they would walk away and return to the strong ties of family and loved ones. I don't know if this has changed but, one thing that hasn't is that only the poor are drafted and the south part of the country has an excess of that.

I guess "Kids" would be an improper way to refer to young men of age who resemble the very youthful in our culture. I don't know.

Bajahowodd - 7-15-2009 at 12:34 PM

I'm with you on that last sentence, Lou.

k-rico - 7-15-2009 at 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I have an observation and a question concerning our recent trip top to bottom and back. There have been other threads dealing with certain issues concerning the checkpoints. I just want to go on record as saying that this trip found the most pleasant and even fun encounters with the military. We had guys laughing and joking with us. One fellow even went through the CDs in our collection giving us his personal opinion of his likes and dislikes. We offfered one in particular, but he refused to take it. On the other hand, personal sized bags of chips were a big hit. Here's my question: Can anyone tell me the minimum age to join the military in Mexico? I ask because in almost every stop, it really appeared we were dealing with teens. Sweet teens. That being said, we had to wonder as to the training these guys have received. To us, there seemed to be a disconnect between these smiling young men, and their supposed need to be able to battle the hardened criminals of the cartels.

If you look I think you'll see an older officer among the younger guys. I've noticed that.

[Edited on 7-15-2009 by k-rico]

Join the military. See Mexico.

Lee - 7-15-2009 at 02:04 PM

Last Winter, I expressed interest in wanting to meet and talk with military personnel in the Todos area. A MX friend arranged a meeting with the Commandant of the Todos garrison, his XO, and a young soldier who was a teen.

I was told that teens join primarily for economic reasons. I liked these guys. Good people.

BajaBruno - 7-15-2009 at 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
I don't know if this has changed but, one thing that hasn't is that only the poor are drafted and the south part of the country has an excess of that.

It is not only the poor who are drafted, but you are still correct, because only the poor serve. In Mexico, if you are drafted, you can pay someone else to take your place, which is why the more affluent are not standing out there in the middle of nowhere searching cars.

Bajahowodd - 7-15-2009 at 04:54 PM

And that is substantially different from the volunteer service in the US? It's mostly poor folk looking for assistace in education and job training. Maybe if we had a draft, political decisions would be different.

Different ? Really ?

MrBillM - 7-15-2009 at 04:57 PM

Hm, Let me think................

The last time that we had a Draft ............. ?

Oh, yeah. Ho Chi Minh and all that Stuff.

That DID work out well.

DENNIS - 7-15-2009 at 04:58 PM

It all makes me wonder what the literacy rate is in the Mexican military. I know my assumptions are far outdated.

DENNIS - 7-15-2009 at 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM

The last time that we had a Draft ............. ?
Oh, yeah. Ho Chi Minh and all that Stuff.

What? We were at war in Garden Grove? I must have slept through that one.

Bajahowodd - 7-15-2009 at 11:54 PM

The point is that with a draft, people other than poor folks had a stake in in and actually cared about it. for way too much of our society, Iraq is off the radar, for better or worse. When it hits home, there is more participation in the political process. If there had been a draft at the time we invaded Iraq, I sincerely doubt we'd still be there all these years later. And I invite anyone to demonstrate exactly how Mexico's draft system operates to only discriminate in favor of the poor and uneducated.

woody with a view - 7-16-2009 at 04:50 AM

every time we pass thru a checkpoint my wife has commented that "they're just children." "with automatic weapons!" i tell her...

we always have good conversations with one or the other while waiting to be searched....

VIVA LOS SOLDADOS!!!

DENNIS - 7-16-2009 at 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
And I invite anyone to demonstrate exactly how Mexico's draft system operates to only discriminate in favor of the poor and uneducated.

I wouldn't say it openly operates by official policy to draft the poor and exclude the better off but, the system allows for substitutions. In the past, perhaps still today, they had what amounted to weekly or monthly drills, similar to the Cal National Guard, to satisfy a military obligation and substitutes were allowed....and expected.
Things have changed on the military front. G.I.s are much more in need today than they were twenty years ago. The numbers are met but the system stays intact. Deferments are automatic and government supplied education is allowing many more to attend school into advanced years.
By default, if nothing else, the obligation to serve the country falls on the less privileged and an abundance of that group lives in the south of Mexico.

I've lived here for around thirty years and have met a number of families with growing kids of all ages. I can't remember even one who has had any military training what so ever. Well, there was one and he went to Mexico's Naval Acadamy.

Anyway, I can't offer damning evidence that the poor are singled out but, one would have to be blind not to see it.

By the way....being a commisioned officer in the Mexican military is one of the best jobs in the country.

Alan - 7-16-2009 at 06:30 AM

Only kids? Just how old do you think our own military is?

When I look back through my old military photos I am amazed how young we all were. I was on a flight crew and the PPC (patrol plane commander) was the Old Guy @ 24 :lol:

Who are the recruits????

bajaguy - 7-16-2009 at 06:47 AM

Interesting report on US military demographics:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda06-09.c...

Pescador - 7-16-2009 at 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
The point is that with a draft, people other than poor folks had a stake in in and actually cared about it. for way too much of our society, Iraq is off the radar, for better or worse. When it hits home, there is more participation in the political process. If there had been a draft at the time we invaded Iraq, I sincerely doubt we'd still be there all these years later. And I invite anyone to demonstrate exactly how Mexico's draft system operates to only discriminate in favor of the poor and uneducated.

You are assuming that your world view is accurate and you spend a lot of time trying to get things to match up with this view. The reality is that the military has more people signing up than they can take and this is a direct result of the economy of mexico and they do not have a very active recruiting of draft procedure.
We have a young man who we paid tuition and fees for from a small town and he just graduated from high school with very good grades. When he and his cousin went to Mexico city to take the entrance exam they were slightly under the cutoff in one section of the exam and were rejected. They have many more applications to join the military than they have available positions.

Locked and Loaded

MrBillM - 7-16-2009 at 09:48 AM

"Children with Automatic Weapons".

In another discussion regarding those kids and their weapons, someone once said they'd heard that they don't have loaded magazines.

SURE. Anybody want to find out ?

I thought about that comment coming through the other day when I looked over at the kid with the Machine gun in the small redoubt at the end of the checkpoint. Full-Belt loaded.

DENNIS - 7-16-2009 at 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
In another discussion regarding those kids and their weapons, someone once said they'd heard that they don't have loaded magazines.

Definitly untrue. Even years back, I'd see them downtown in an Independence Day parade and you could see shiny new brass inside their clips.

IN The Weapon ?

MrBillM - 7-16-2009 at 04:29 PM

Shiny new cartridges visible ? How is that possible ? What outside indicator is there on a G3 ? It's not apparent to me.

Just wondering.

Bajahowodd - 7-16-2009 at 04:54 PM

Lotsa interesting contributions here. See. we can have a meaningful dialogue.

I do wish to take exception with one entry. Bajaguy's link only deals with post-draft statististics. I continue to wonder if there would be a much higher level of scrutiny within our borders, if a draft was taking bunches of college grads from affluent households, a la Viet nam.

DENNIS - 7-16-2009 at 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Shiny new cartridges visible ? How is that possible ? What outside indicator is there on a G3 ? It's not apparent to me.

Just wondering.

I don't know what they were. Some kind of 9mm stuff.
Twenty plus years ago, Bill and I know what I saw.
Why the test?

DENNIS - 7-16-2009 at 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
if a draft was taking bunches of college grads from affluent households, a la Viet nam.

They, for the most part, weren't taken without being given a commision. Lesser educated were issued a target on the back of their fatigues.

I know there were exceptions but, that's what they were....exceptions.

Taking a Hike on the High Road

MrBillM - 7-16-2009 at 05:13 PM

OK, but I know we'll never agree.

It's not clear to me that the College Protests actually affected the LENGTH of the war. They may have affected the eventual outcome and, in my opinion, they had a Negative effect.

Unfortunately, the American people have NEVER really been in for the long haul. EVEN WWII was wearing thin at home and fund-raising was getting troublesome. Many of our decisions, including D-Day, were influenced by the need to get things wrapped up as quickly as possible. Even Dropping Fat Man and Little Boy was part of an Economic consideration. Le May's plan to continue leveling every possible source of war production over time was considered too long and too expensive.

Fortunately, we didn't have an easy way out of that one.

Whatever our initial resolve, we run out of steam early on.

Crusoe - 7-16-2009 at 05:14 PM

We always keep a cold six-pack of some kind of Mex. pop on hand and give the whole pack to them. They just love it and its so fun to see their big smiles. I alwaws was under the impression there guns are not loaded. That bieng said..... if you look down the road 100' or so you will always see and older or tougher looking indiduual with a rifle on alert,standing next to a couple pf 55gal. drums filled with concrete. ++C++

DENNIS - 7-16-2009 at 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Whatever our initial resolve, we run out of steam early on.

For sure. We do have a short attention span. Grenada, as nothing that it was, gave pride of victory to a really wanting American public. We instantly kicked ass. A small ass but, a victory none the less.
Yankee Doodle.

No Test

MrBillM - 7-16-2009 at 05:21 PM

My original comment had to do with the Grunts at the Army Checkpoints.

They're carrying G3s. What others are carrying elsewhere for other purposes is another matter.

HOWEVER, it does bring up another interesting thought.

Military weapons are designed to keep dirt out of the workings. ANY portal which exposed the cartridges would allow dirt in so it "seems" unlikely. Unlike some Magazines available on the Civilian market, I'm unaware of them using "see-through" Magazines.

But, Quien Sabe ?

[Edited on 7-17-2009 by MrBillM]

DENNIS - 7-16-2009 at 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Military weapons are designed to keep dirt out of the workings. ANY portal which exposed the cartridges would allow dirt in so it "seems" unlikely. Unlike some Magazines available on the Civilian market, I'm unaware of them using "see-through" Magazines.

But, Quien Sabe ?

Ya had to be there. A long time ago, military marching in a parade, only half of them in uniform.
Things have changed.

Bajajorge - 7-17-2009 at 09:52 AM

With all that's going on at the border

I think they're getting enough hands on training to satisfy anyone.

motoged - 7-18-2009 at 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

For sure. We do have a short attention span. Grenada, as nothing that it was, gave pride of victory to a really wanting American public. We instantly kicked burro. A small burro but, a victory none the less.
Yankee Doodle.

Yeah, Grenada was a real military coup for the US :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada

Many of the US military deaths were friendly fire when the airforce bombed their own guys.

Being a bully doesn't make a person right

Jingoism at its best

:barf:

Kell-Baja - 7-19-2009 at 04:43 PM

For the most part I think the guys @ the checkpoints are very courteous & helpful. One time I had a jeep breaking down & overheating at a checkpoint & the guys immediately tried to find and fix the problem. I offered them money which they refused. Too bad we can't say the same for most of the police down there. I have great pics. Of these guys under the hood.

Cyanide41 - 7-21-2009 at 06:34 AM

ahhh..... this thread reminds me of when I was a 19 y/o Machine Gunner in the Marine Corps. I remember being on liberty in Israel and seeing a soldier who looked younger than me (i was probably 20 at the time) with an M16 on his back playing video games in the arcade at the local mall.

My point is that, there are "kids" all over the world serving their countries.

Bajahowodd - 7-21-2009 at 11:30 AM

Good point. I just guess that the older we get, the younger they look.

tripledigitken - 7-21-2009 at 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

I've lived here for around thirty years .....

thirty years?!!!!!!!!!!

Wow! You have my new found respect for your alertness and keen ability to reason, at least until about 4 in the afternoon. :tumble:

Ken

Cypress - 7-21-2009 at 01:42 PM

Was getting a haircut a while back in the USA, the shop was full of what I thought were high school kids. Wrong! They were US Marines. Don't under estimate those young looking military guys. When the do-do hit's the fan they'll take care of business.

DENNIS - 7-21-2009 at 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken

Wow! You have my new found respect for your alertness and keen ability to reason, at least until about 4 in the afternoon. :tumble:

Ken

I make it a point to get all reasonable reasoning out of the way by noon. The rest of my day is dedicated to being unreasonable. Some might say, "Over-priced." They just don't know a bargain when they see one.

OOOPS...I keep forgetting the little laughy guy.. :lol:

[Edited on 7-21-2009 by DENNIS]

Bajahowodd - 7-21-2009 at 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken

Wow! You have my new found respect for your alertness and keen ability to reason, at least until about 4 in the afternoon. :tumble:

Ken

[Edited on 7-21-2009 by DENNIS]

Is that Pacific or Mountain time?

Debra - 7-22-2009 at 11:36 PM

I have to stop myself from pinching them on the cheek and patting those cute fannys! :saint:

toneart - 7-23-2009 at 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by motoged

Quote:

Yeah, Grenada was a real military coup for the US :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada

Many of the US military deaths were friendly fire when the airforce bombed their own guys.

Being a bully doesn't make a person right

Jingoism at its best

:barf:

Yep! That brave :rolleyes:

invasion made Ronald Reagan our most heroic Commander in Chief until GWB, Huh! :no:

Cypress - 7-23-2009 at 02:31 PM

Those liberal dinky-doo's just can't get over the fact that Ronald Reagan was a Republican and all they have to compare to him are the likes of J. Carter, B. Clinton and Obama. :lol:

toneart - 7-23-2009 at 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Those liberal dinky-doo's just can't get over the fact that Ronald Reagan was a Republican and all they have to compare to him are the likes of J. Carter, B. Clinton and Obama. :lol:

Thank you for answering farbauti's question.

edited for correct spelling of farbauti's name.

[Edited on 7-23-2009 by toneart]

toneart - 7-23-2009 at 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Farbauti
toneart, why disrespect dead US presidents?,, I do not understand this.

Civility and respect seems to not be on this forum..about Baja?,,Perhaps I make a mistake by joining.

President Reagan is much respected forever by many worldwide who are now free to live dreams.

Farbauti,

I was commenting (cynically) on a particular act of President Reagan's. That is not meant to disrespect a "dead US president". Obviously I have a particular political philosophy, but my respect for most politicians is pretty low. It is a dirty game with too many "political capital" debts and obligatory paybacks.They are governed by special interest lobbyists and I rarely feel represented by them.

My comment was in response to a conversation already started by others on this string. And yes, this has wandered far from Baja. That is not good.

Please do not think you made a "mistake by joining". I welcome your opinions.

I do not consider political opinions to be uncivil, whereas personal attacks on other Nomads would be, in my opinion.( I am not referring to you in the previous sentence). I welcome open dialog and opinions of all persuasions.

Sometimes I do respond with sarcasm; an attempt at humor. Sometimes it is not taken well and I apologize if any offense is taken.

DENNIS - 7-23-2009 at 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Farbauti
Civility and respect seems to not be on this forum..about Baja?,,Perhaps I make a mistake by joining.

President Reagan is much respected forever by many worldwide who are now free to live dreams.

Bullsheeit, Farbutt...There are no presidents free of criticism here...hopefully, nowhere.
If you can't understand that, you should do what you suggested........back up and move out. AMF

dtbushpilot - 7-23-2009 at 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Debra
I have to stop myself from pinching them on the cheek and patting those cute fannys! :saint:

If fishbuck hade made a remark like this about the girls that work the Cruse Roja stops he would be the object of ridicule and scorne.....shame on you Debra.....dt

fishbuck - 7-23-2009 at 06:13 PM

Please don't drag me into this! She can do what ever she want's for all I care.

BajaBruno - 7-23-2009 at 09:17 PM

Now hold on DT....some of those girls at the Cruz Roja stops do merit a little more than the customary 5 pesos... :lol:

Debra - 7-24-2009 at 12:07 AM

True DT, but,,,,,,,, being an old Gran-ma allows some special privledges don't you think? :lol:

dtbushpilot - 7-24-2009 at 07:14 AM

Sure, as long as I have the same privledges now that I'm a "grand-pa" (read "dirty old man).

I was just havin a little fun at your expense Deb. :lol:

[Edited on 7-24-2009 by dtbushpilot]

toneart - 7-24-2009 at 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dtbushpilot
Sure, as long as I have the same privledges now that I'm a "grand-pa" (read "dirty old man).

I was just havin a little fun at your expense Deb. :lol:

[Edited on 7-24-2009 by dtbushpilot]

Me too, DT! I feel like Rodney Dangerfield. "I don't get no respect" for my age. I thought the babes would consider me harmless and thereby let down their guard. But they see that look in my eye (that I have tried to conceal to no avail). :saint:

Bajajorge - 7-24-2009 at 09:00 AM

Gee, we're gettin into a political debate.

Guess it's just gonna take time away from me tryin to figure out :light:

how I'm gonna pay for all this free health care :bounce:

I'm goin ta get from the new bunch in DC. :rolleyes: