BajaNomad

Grounding rods in Ensenada?

astrobaja - 7-28-2009 at 11:19 AM

Hi all,

Trying to find an electrical supply place in Ensenada that might sell 2 meter grounding rods. Home Depot has one meter units but we would prefer the larger ones for our house. The idiots at Soltec in Rosarito who installed our solar system did'nt install one (among many other mistakes they made!). So my brother in law whos an electrical engineer is coming down next weekend to fix their F-ups!

--Mike

gnukid - 7-28-2009 at 11:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by astrobaja
Hi all,

Trying to find an electrical supply place in Ensenada that might sell 2 meter grounding rods. Home Depot has one meter units but we would prefer the larger ones for our house. The idiots at Soltec in Rosarito who installed our solar system did'nt install one (among many other mistakes they made!). So my brother in law whos an electrical engineer is coming down next weekend to fix their F-ups!

--Mike


Gosh, every hardware and electrical store should have them?

Crusoe - 7-28-2009 at 11:36 AM

Can you use rebar? ++C++

nancywinpdx - 7-28-2009 at 11:37 AM

grounding rods:

hmmm... clever!!! a multi function brat punisher:

is it smart enough to objectively and fairly decide the punishment, depending on the offense?

a. yer gettin' a spankin'

b. you're 'grounded' with no tv or video games

maybe I'll have to look 'em up on wikipedia.

Ąjust kidding!

astrobaja - 7-28-2009 at 11:40 AM

Nancy, you need a grounding "wand", one that does punishment spells!

I'm sure Olivanders has one :lol:

We could use one for our bratty cats!

Oggie - 7-28-2009 at 11:44 AM

For US quality electrical supplies in Baja check-out this link:

http://www.1sourcedist.com/LocationsMexico.aspx

nancywinpdx - 7-28-2009 at 11:44 AM

oh, great idea! and naughty doggies too!

you could patent 'em!

BajaBruno - 7-28-2009 at 12:53 PM

5/8" rebar 8' long, as Crusoe suggested, should work fine for you. It is acceptable by code and commonly used in new home construction.

If you are pushing it into sand, you might want to use two rods, about 6' apart, because sand does not make a very effective ground. It is best if one is near a downspout so the area stays moist in a rain storm.

DENNIS - 7-28-2009 at 01:04 PM

Have your buddy stop at Radio Shack on his way down. They have 'em.

BajaBruno - 7-28-2009 at 01:27 PM

Unless Radio Shack has something besides their typical economy 4' model, that is not likely to meet astrobaja's needs.

DENNIS - 7-28-2009 at 01:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaBruno
Unless Radio Shack has something besides their typical economy 4' model, that is not likely to meet astrobaja's needs.



I thought I bought a six footer there. Whatever I used, I had a problem. The soil here is full of rock and getting a rod into the ground hit rock wherever I tried. I've watched the local electricians work and when sinking a rod, they cut it off when they hit resistance, then walk away.
My power comes from the pole to my pole, down through the meter, underground twenty five feet to a panel in the shed. In the two feet deep trench I dug, I stripped twenty feet of #6 wire [it may have been heavier] and laid it in the trench, using it for the ground.
Correct me if I'm wrong but, depth isn't the issue and exposure is. I have a twenty foot ground rod. Could it be any better?

noproblemo2 - 7-28-2009 at 02:08 PM

Ahhhhhh, Yet another Soltec screw up, I honestly don't know how they stay in business. EcoyEco can probably help you. Rolfs # 664 684 1886 & 664 687 8678 I believe their is post here on solar where he has offered to help with solar info.

BajaBruno - 7-28-2009 at 02:58 PM

Dennis, there is a way to test a ground installation, but I doubt anyone around you has the equipment. Not a problem. The code says that if you have an inadequate ground, simply drive another rod 6' away and you don't even have to test it (actually, testing isn't required in either case).

Your ground is probably fine, although you'd never get away with having line voltage only 2' feet underground in the US!

DENNIS - 7-28-2009 at 03:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaBruno

Your ground is probably fine, although you'd never get away with having line voltage only 2' feet underground in the US!


Whoops. Even in conduit? Oh well....next time I mention it, it'll be six feet. :light:
Thanks Bruno.......

Diver - 7-28-2009 at 03:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaBruno
5/8" rebar 8' long, as Crusoe suggested, should work fine for you. It is acceptable by code and commonly used in new home construction.


Do not use rebar for permanent in-ground grounding !!
This is not allowed in any area I have ever worked.
The rebar will corrode and dissappear in time leaving you with no ground.
That's why alloy copper or aluminum is required.

When rebar is used in new foundations, a continuous 20' length poured into the foundation is required for grounding.

.

DENNIS - 7-28-2009 at 03:31 PM

I know this happened a while back but, it's in today's news.
Faulty ground.........

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/09/national/main47873...

BajaBruno - 7-28-2009 at 03:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
I know this happened a while back but, it's in today's news.
Faulty ground.........

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/09/national/main47873...


This really isn't a grounding issue as much as a bonding problem. It's been much discussed on the electrical boards. Apparently, electrical engineers are non-existent or in short supply in Iraq and faulty bonding is common.

You're right, Diver, a Ufer rebar ground is encased in concrete. But if a proper ground rod is not available, and you are sinking in sand, which is a pretty crummy medium for a ground anyway, then rebar would do in my humble opinion. It's not great, and it may not last 30 years, but it's better than nothing.

Crusoe - 7-28-2009 at 04:07 PM

While working as a house framer in Aspen, Co. in the early 1960's, every house we were building at that time was using rebar as a ground rod. They are all still there as of this day and working fine. The problems that develop is when some one wires up a dissimillar metal wire to one (instigating an electrolisis condition) like copper or alumium. Using a lead connector between the two different types of metals is helpful. I am sure it is better to use an alloy as Diver suggests if its available.++C++

bent-rim - 7-28-2009 at 05:00 PM

Copper rods are best. Rebar has a tendency to corrode. They should be placed twice the distance apart as they are long. 8' rods should be placed 16' apart as an example, more rods are better than 1 rod. They need to attached with an unbroken wire to the panel box, I think #6 is what is code. They make a tool that fits a demolition hammer for driving them into the ground. If the house is wired correctly the grounding rod(s) will never be used.

Speaking of grounding....

Pacifico - 7-29-2009 at 07:12 AM

Here is a question for you guys - I have a 2 story wood-framed garage with a metal roof on it. There is no "electrical system" built into the structure yet. Should the metal roof be grounded to a grounding rod in case of lightning? Would this type of structure attract a lightning strike? I have no clue - the discussion here just got me thinking.... Thanks!!!

BajaBruno - 7-29-2009 at 10:17 AM

The metal roof industry says that metal roofs are no more likely to be hit by lightning than any other roof, if you can believe them.

I'm not aware of any codes that require bonding a metal roof to the grounding system, except in high risk commercial buildings. It can't hurt, though, if you are concerned about it.

astrobaja - 7-29-2009 at 10:30 AM

Thanks Guys, but I guess I'll just get my brother in law to pick up a proper copper 8' one at Home Depot in SD for when he comes down

Oggie - 7-29-2009 at 10:34 AM

Don't forget the Ground rod wire clamp.

Barry A. - 7-29-2009 at 11:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaBruno
Dennis, there is a way to test a ground installation, but I doubt anyone around you has the equipment. Not a problem. The code says that if you have an inadequate ground, simply drive another rod 6' away and you don't even have to test it (actually, testing isn't required in either case).

Your ground is probably fine, although you'd never get away with having line voltage only 2' feet underground in the US!


Ok, now I am getting spooked. In the USA, I have an outlier storage shed that was built with no electrical within. I ran special underground 3-wire NOMEX a foot under ground to it (no conduit) from my house 110 V electrical system, and it seems to work fine and it has been there for over 10 years. Is there a potential problem here? (I realize that somebody might push a shovel into it, and that WOULD be a problem tho most of the length is under a raised deck.) I was told to NOT use conduit as water accumulates in it and could cause the system to fail (???)

Barry

BajaBruno - 7-29-2009 at 12:07 PM

Barry A., there is a different between "best practices" and the National Electrical Code, as I found out when I was trying to get an electrican working for me to do what I considered a proper job. He reminded me that by contract he was only required to do his work "to code," and Code is only concerned with minimum safety standards, not necessarily comfort and convenience in the real world.

Dennis' application was a service entrance (between the meter and the service panel), which requires 4' depth, as I recall. You buried a fused circuit, which has lower requirements. Assuming UF rated cable, I think the Code requires a minumum of 2' depth. I would always put it in PVC or thickwall metal conduit, not because UF isn't good cable, but because it is too easy to drive a badminton pole or something into the cable and break it. Fixing that is a real pain.

If water gets in the conduit it's really no big deal--there is water all around the unprotected cable buried in the ground, right? But, the conduit gives it lots of protection from damage. Again, best practices vs Code.

Barry A. - 7-29-2009 at 01:01 PM

Many thanks, Bruno------------I am thinking that you are dead on here, and I will accomplish the upgrades soon------safety vs simple is not a good tradeoff, I am thinking.

I am clueless on this electrical stuff, and appreciate the advice------the vulnerability of the naked cable HAS concerned me, especially the portion out from under the deck..

Again, thanks.

Barry

arrowhead - 7-29-2009 at 01:03 PM

I know I'm a little late to the party, but I noticed your house is out in the country. If you have a well with steel pipe lining (most do) you can ground to the well pipe, if it is not too far from the house. You don't want to have a long ground wire run, preferrably just a few feet to keep the resistance low.

astrobaja - 7-29-2009 at 05:22 PM

Good idea Arrowhead but alas don't have a well!

Diver - 7-29-2009 at 07:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Ok, now I am getting spooked. In the USA, I have an outlier storage shed that was built with no electrical within. I ran special underground 3-wire NOMEX a foot under ground to it (no conduit) from my house 110 V electrical system, and it seems to work fine and it has been there for over 10 years. Is there a potential problem here? (I realize that somebody might push a shovel into it, and that WOULD be a problem tho most of the length is under a raised deck.) I was told to NOT use conduit as water accumulates in it and could cause the system to fail (???)
Barry


You said 3-wire. hot, neutral and GROUND, right.
This is only an outlet, not a sub-panel right ?
Then you don't need another ground.
(unless you used 2 hots and 1 neutral and no ground ??? Then you would need to bury another wire for ground back to the panel)
If you used underground-rated cable, you don't need conduit except to protect the wire from the wife planting a new tree.

Another tidbit for you self-proclaimed electricians (like me);
If you have a panel that serves a sub-panel, both panels must be grounded separately. The bus-bar connector needs to be removed on the sub-panel and the wires connected; one side grounds - other side neutrals (ground rod to the ground bar). If you live in an area with salty soils, you may get a ground loop shock when it rains if you don't !!
.

Diver - 7-29-2009 at 07:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by astrobaja
Good idea Arrowhead but alas don't have a well!



Oh well.



(I had to do it before someone else did !! :biggrin: )

Barry A. - 7-29-2009 at 07:45 PM

Diver said, "You said 3-wire. hot, neutral and GROUND, right.
This is only an outlet, not a sub-panel right ?
Then you don't need another ground.


That is all correct, Diver. Thank you.

Barry

Pacifico - 7-29-2009 at 08:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaBruno
The metal roof industry says that metal roofs are no more likely to be hit by lightning than any other roof, if you can believe them.

I'm not aware of any codes that require bonding a metal roof to the grounding system, except in high risk commercial buildings. It can't hurt, though, if you are concerned about it.


Thanks for the reply BajaBruno! This forum needs more people like you!!!