bajalera - 6-22-2004 at 06:41 PM
What do you perceive to be the difference--if any--between ethno-history and ethnology? Seems to me this is getting to be a pretty fuzzy area.
Have you read the historian's view of anthropologists on the Bajacalifology site?
Lera
ethnohistory vs ethnology
academicanarchist - 6-23-2004 at 06:25 AM
Lera. I have not read the discussion. What is the url? Ethnology is the study of current culture, social structure, etc. Ethnohistory is the study of
historical culture, society, etc. Most historians do not take advantage of the perspectives that can be gained from anthropology and particularly
archaeology. I have always read archaeological reports, which provide very important perspectives.
Mathes Interview
academicanarchist - 6-23-2004 at 06:50 AM
Lera. I assume you refer to this interview by Mathes:
AN INTERVIEW WITH W. MICHAEL MATHES :
A HISTORIAN'S PERSPECTIVE ON BAJA CALIFORNIA ANTHROPOLOGY
W. Michael Mathes received his Ph.D. from the University of New Mexico in 1966 and taught history at the University of San Francisco during the
following 26 years. His numerous publications have made many of the primary sources for the early history of Baja California available to students and
researchers. He has also written specifically anthropological articles on a variety of topics, including Cochim? ceremonialism, Cape Region linguistic
distributions, aboriginal demography, a Central Desert pictograph site, resource use throughout the central and southern parts of the peninsula, and
sources and problems for ethnohistory. Dr. Mathes has now retired and lives in west Texas, but he continues very actively to publish and to
participate in conferences.
Interviewer : Over the last several decades, you and others have accomplished a great deal in publishing the source materials for the early
ethnohistory of Baja California. Is this program winding down now, or do you think that major additions to this literature will continue to appear in
the years ahead?
W. Michael Mathes : There is always a potential for the discovery of new documentation; however, the more intense the research, the less likely such
discovery. Nevertheless, there is always "grandma?s trunk". Having spent four decades working on pre-mission history in Baja California, I am
satisfied that I have found and published all that I can find, but it would be the ultimate in egocentrism to think that more that is worthy of
publication cannot be found. I hope that serious researchers will continue to find documentation and publish it. Naturally, if I thought that a great
deal more will be found I would be looking for it, but hope springs eternal and long ago I found that I was not!
I : Does archaeology have a potential to contribute significantly to our understanding of the early historic period? If so, what are the unanswered
questions concerning early Baja California that you would like to see as the focus of its efforts?
WMM : Of course archaeology shall continue to add to ethnohistorical knowledge, but only if archaeologists have a familiarity with that knowledge and
know the documentation. There are NUMEROUS unanswered questions, but mine are related primarily to matters of commerce and contact with "the outside",
e.g. Colorado River and Sonoran groups. I would like to see more work regarding dating etc. of remains of clearly domesticated cultigens on the
peninsula. I think that most of the other doubts that I have had such as the origin and aboriginal range of Peric?es, trade in obsidian, etc. have
been resolved by excellent research by archaeologists in recent years.
I : Are you satisfied with the ways archaeologists and other anthropologists have made use of the historical record for Baja California? Are there
changes that you would like to see in the way they handle historical evidence?
WMM : I am, in general, NOT pleased with what I have seen regarding the use of historical documentation regarding the peninsula. I am struck with a
truly sad lack of bibliographic knowlege, not only in published documentation and historical studies, but even in the published archaeological studies
of the peninsula, language notwithstanding. Of course the ignorance of Spanish among U.S. anthropologists and archaeologists of Baja California is
absolutely astounding! Anthropologists and archaeologists who wish to REALLY know Baja California must study the historical bibliography and know the
language -- otherwise, their work is terribly deficient.
I : You have been critical of some of the writers who have made claims for large aboriginal populations in the peninsula or who have held strongly
negative views of the mission system. Do you see these as manifestations of an excessively pro-indigenist bias on the part of some historians and
anthropologists?
WMM : No, I do not see them as pro-indigenist! They are anti-Catholic and anti-Spanish, and worse, anti-academic. Very few historians and
ethnohistorians of my times were anti-indigenist -- on the contrary, many of us were more interested in Indian ethnography than Hispanic missions.
Nevertheless, we looked at the past with objectivity, rather than political correctness.
The bottom line is that European invasion of the New World was inevitable and its overwhelming Amerindian (I was born in the U.S. and am a Native
American, but not Amerindian) civilization was only a matter of time. The way the Spanish did this in the missions of the Californias was very humane
and positive in the context of the times and the evolution of the world. Reality is reality and as much as many would like it to stand still, time
marches on. The past has always been less civilized that the present -- that is the way things should be!
The aboriginal population estimates of Cook and his followers do not make sense and are concocted by people who have no knowledge of the environment
of Baja California -- any common sense reflection on this would make it clear to anyone that these huge populations could not exist. It is similar to
concepts of the Holocaust -- the higher the original population, the greater the horror of its decimation. This does not mean that the loss of even
one life was not tragic, but if you start with 24,000 and end up with about 10,000 including Indians who lived as such and those who became mestizos
or otherwise merged into the population, the impact of disease was not so notable as the Cook et al. figures of 48,000 to zero. Look at the
reducciones in Paraquaria -- there were more Indians at the time of Jesuit expulsion that at the time of the beginning of the system!
I : Do you see any important difference between the ways Mexican and U.S. researchers approach the problems of history and anthropology in Baja
California? If so, are there particular things that either group might profitably learn from the other?
WMM : Both are deficient in bibliographic knowledge, but the U.S. is worse. Similarly, while not as numerous as U.S. researchers, Mexicans are much
more competent in English than their U.S. counterparts are in Spanish. This all leads to the "reinvention of the wheel". I think that both groups are
important because one looks at things from the inside and one from the outside, and this is very good for reaching balanced conclusions. I will not go
into the matters of Mexican "official" history and anthropology and the academic method in the U.S. -- it is very political and complex, but
collaboration ALWAYS beats competition!
I : Do you have any plans of your own for future research projects that will be of interest to Baja California anthropologists?
WMM : Obviously, I am winding down my new projects -- I am not desirous of posthumous publications! Nevertheless, I am still alive and kicking! I have
been, and still am, very much involved in the production of mission records for demographic knowledge. Of course, I still work with INAH, CAREM and
other organizations to preserve the mission sites and other historical sites in Baja California, and hope to keep on participating in conferences,
giving papers, publishing articles, etc., but I do not have any really big projects as in the past. I hope that I can be a mentor to serious
researchers for the rest of my days -- it has been wonderful for me, so why not for younger scholars.
(8/02)
(Interviewer: Don Laylander)
Mathes is a horses ass, and is not a very good historian in my opinion. He has made documents available to other scholars, but has not done much
analytical history and certainly does not understand mission demography. Back in the 80s, he complained to the editors of a journal that had published
one of my articles, claiming that he had exclusive rights to use the Baja California mission sacramental registers. Which is funny, considering that I
had visited him, told him of my research interests, and received additional citations to the location of registers. DUring that conversation he made
comments that are really telling about his personality. There had been serious flooding in TJ, and I made a comment about the problems the people
there were having. He expressed concern about people at the Melling Ranch, but was unsympathetic about the people in TJ, who he said were there only
to get rich.
Now to your question, and the issues Mathes raised. My sense is that more anthropologists and archaeologists who are working on historic sites are
incorporating history. My sense is also that many historians do not take into account archaeology or ethnology. His comments are myopic and mean
spirited. His comments about demography and the huge estimates for aboriginal population sizes are also myopic and mean spirited. As I said, he is a
horses ass. I, for one, have made use of the works of historical geographers such as Meigs, Sauer, and Aschman to get an understanding of the
environment of Baja California, and the mission censuses and sacramental registers provide clues to the size of native populations. Mathes likes to
denigrate the works of others, but what great analytical studies has he produced. Finally, his comment about Mexican scholars knowing English better
than Americans knowing Spanish needs amplification. Some American anthopologists/archaeologists may not be fluent, but I don't know any historians who
at least can't read Spanish. This is a broad generalization that, in my opinion, does not hold water. Mathes may think of himself as the great expert
on Baja California history, but the corpus of his own works is not all that great: documents and mostly descriptive narrative works. There has been
one serious study of mission demography by a Mexican scholars, Mario Magana Mancillas. If you take a look at his book, whose works does he cite most
frequently? Finally, his claim of the anti-Catholicism of some scholars critical of the missions is absolutely absurd. I have been consdered
anti-Catholic, but this was a response by advocates of the older EUrocentric Catholic view when studies appeared that shattered their view of history.
One line in my book Indian Population Decline set some people off. It was my comment that the demise of the Indian populations was not intentional,
but was intended. By this I meant that the missionaries did not want the Indian populations to die off, but at the same time they continued to bring
natives to the missions knowing that mortality was high. On the other hand, a Franciscan reviewed the same book, and said that the numbers speak for
themselves and people need to deal with it.
[Edited on 6-23-2004 by academicanarchist]
[Edited on 6-23-2004 by academicanarchist]
David K - 6-23-2004 at 08:03 AM
Wow... Thank you Dr. Jackson!
bajalera - 6-23-2004 at 12:44 PM
Thanks, AA, that was quite a blast. (And people think the Hist-Lit Forum is dull and stodgy!)
I've previously posted part of this e-mail, which I sent to the Bajacalifology (isn't this a neat name!) site in response to that interview:
I had somehow failed to notice that gringo anthropologists who work in Baja California have suffered not only from a truly sad lack of bibliographic
knowledge but also from an astonishing ignorance of the Spanish language.
What I've noticed, instead, is that anthropologists and historians (with the notable exception of Miguel Leon-Portilla) don't seem to be looking for
the same things. There are some outstanding examples of this divergence in the Mathes translation of Clemente Guillen's accounts of his expeditions to
Magdalena Bay and La Paz.
On page 81, for example, Guillen notes that an Indian told the explorers he couldn't come to a rancheria where they had stopped because his
father-in-law was in that rancheria, and adds, "We laughed at his reason, and we accidentally erred in laughing . . . because afterwards we found
these friends to be very adverse to us."
An anthropologist would have footnoted this indication of an in-law taboo, would perhaps cite a few other groups having a similar taboo, and might add
that Guillen--unlike some of his contemporaries who described peninsular Indians as incapable of human emotion--was cognizant of their sensitivities.
Well, the historian didn't find that worthy of attention, but did put a footnote on page 35, where the expedition arrives at San Andres Tiguana:
[Footnote] "The earliest reference to this rancheria, which apparently gave its name at a later date to the present city of Tijuana."
Guilllen's Tiguana was near the present site of Mission San Luis Gonzaga, a hundred or so miles northwest of La Paz, and there is no evidence that its
people had a linguistic or any other cultural affiliation with the Yumans of the north. It is unlilkely that a Tiguana-Tijuana connection would be
apparent to an anthropologist.
To get really down-and-b-tchy: The purpose of translating Spanish documents into English is to make them easier for people like me to read. Still, I
suppose that passages like this one [p. 41]--and there are quite a few in the Guillen translation--can be considered inspiring:
"They saw following them a squad of Indian friends adorned with their quivers, which they carried, respectable more for their supply of arrows than
for their curious paintings, they admired, in the middle, our carriage, guarded by Spaniards and surrounded by another squad of Indian friends, they
were frightened seeing the rearguard with the herd of horses and mules surrounded by Spanish presidial soldiers. It was an agreeable spectcle of
which, even in a painting, they had not seen a like representation. The fact is that they now saw with fear what they had hoped (if that was the cause
for their lies) to see with delilght, and they were detained by good discretion from the act and the hoped for natural jubilation."
English-speakers who wonder what the hell this says will be inspired to buy a Velzaques dictionary and get a copy of the document in Spanish.
--Lee Massey
[Edited on 6-23-2004 by bajalera]
[Edited on 6-23-2004 by bajalera]
Response to Lera
academicanarchist - 6-23-2004 at 06:05 PM
Ignorance is bliss. Sure there was a cosmic connection between the rancheria near San Luis Gonzaga and Tijuana. I just can't figure it out. That is an
example of pretty sloppy editing and history. The truth is that Mathes fals into one of my favorite academic categories "legend in his own mind," and
outside of his little group of mediocre friends he is a non-entity in the field of colonial Latin American history. He is old guard, tell a nice
story, and translate documents. I guess you probablly figured out by now that I have little time for him.
[Edited on 6-24-2004 by academicanarchist]
Can You Tell me about this author
academicanarchist - 6-23-2004 at 06:13 PM
Lera. Can you tell me about this author? I took this from the bibliography section of the web site we have been discussing.
Massey, Lee Gooding
1968 - Baja's plants and Indians. Desert Magazine, October.
1972 - Tabla and atlatl: two unusual wooden artifacts from Baja California. PCASQ 8(1):25-34.
1974 - Jesuits and Indians: a brief evaluation of three early descriptions of Baja California. PCASQ 10(1):1-12. (Accounts by Venegas/Burriel,
Baegert, and Clavijero.)
1976 - Chacuaco: the tubular stone pipe in Baja California. PCASQ 12(1):21-29. (Early historical and archaeological evidence.)
When I first started learning about the Baja California missions and natives, I read a number of very good studies by a guy name William Massey as
well. Unlike many historians, particularly historians of missions, I read a lot of archaeology, and years ago in the dark ages worked on a mission
excavation in California-doing it in the dirt.
[Edited on 6-24-2004 by academicanarchist]
[Edited on 6-24-2004 by academicanarchist]
bajalera - 6-23-2004 at 09:41 PM
That's me, or She is I, or whatever
Lera
David K - 6-23-2004 at 10:52 PM
Hi Lera, my goodness you have been writing Baja for a long time! I have the Oct. 1968 issue of Desert Magazine and just read your article.
Where exactly are the petroglyphs you mentioned, at Laguna Chapala? I know where the Grosso ranch used to be, if you want to use that as a reference
point.
Do you have any other articles in Desert Mag? Did you ever meet Choral?
Thanks!
Lera
academicanarchist - 6-24-2004 at 05:48 AM
Lera. Two things gave it away. Some time ago you told me that you had done maps for publications by your relative William Massey. Then, on the note
you posted that you originally sent in response to Mathes's stupid interview, you included your name. That was just a little clue. I had noticed your
name in the bibliography when I had perused it earlier. David. Please send me a copy of the article from Desert Magazine.
She knows
jrbaja - 6-24-2004 at 09:38 AM
of what she speaks. And pretty much of a kick too.
bajalera - 6-24-2004 at 11:21 AM
Robert--The response I sent to Bajacalifology was nasty, so I felt obligated to add my name. I'm not proud of those papers, which were written while I
was an editor for the college textbook division of Psychology Today magazine, with deadlines that made a 70-hour work week only average. Didn't leave
much time for research--which is a lot easier now because I've assembled a pretty substantial library of books about Baja.
DK--To be honest, I don't remember one thing about the Desert piece. If you'll send me a copy maybe I could do better. I never got to meet Choral
Pepper and regret that, she was obviously as wonderful person.
JR--Are you here or up there? I have some bamboo questions.
Lera
Lera
David K - 6-24-2004 at 07:18 PM
Send me an email to davidk*at*davidksbaja.com and put Baja Article in the subject line. The Oct. '68 article is 3 pages. I just scanned them and
emailed them to Robert (AA).
Choral Pepper was more than wonderful... I am so honored to have known her. Her painting (seen here) is hanging by my computer in my living room. It
was her favorite of the many she did... her 'Baja Dreams'...
[Edited on 6-25-2004 by David K]