BajaNomad - Shocking illegal dorado fishing documentary, Must See.

Shocking illegal dorado fishing documentary, Must See.

Pages: 1 2

Cardon Man - 8-7-2009 at 07:45 AM

All Nomads should see this documentary...

Oro Del Cortez

bajajudy - 8-7-2009 at 07:52 AM

Thanks
I have forwarded this link to all my fishing buddies

Cardon Man - 8-7-2009 at 07:59 AM

Good work Judy... It will horrify anyone that cares about the Sea of Cortez.

Kudos to Minerva Saenz of Minervas tackle, whom I'm told was behind this documentary.

Oggie - 8-7-2009 at 08:09 AM

Wow :?:

Very interesting!!

Skeet/Loreto - 8-7-2009 at 08:22 AM

Judy: I appreciate your posting: But this is not a
documentary" , it is a good film very narrow in its use of "Facts"

The one thing that stands out is the Failure to mention the last year and a Half of the Millions of Bait, the Hundreds of Thusands of Dorado and Yellowtail that have increased from the decline in the past 10 years.

All of the truth must be told for anyone to make a value judgment.

I lived , Fished and worked on the Sea of Cortez for 38 years, IT IS NOT RUINED AND WILL NOT BE RUINED

I would suggest that you and one other person, hire a local Pangero and travel the Sea of Cotrez for one year from La Paz North to the Bay of Los Angeles, take pictures talk to the locals. Just record that which you observe and then come back and do a Report.

We have enough SPAM, all is necessary is the TRUTH!

Skeet/Loreto

Hook - 8-7-2009 at 08:42 AM

The producers really did a pretty good job of identifying the problem (Conapesca). I can't say this is surprising, though.

Did that Conapesca official REALLY suggest that dorado aquaculture is an option? I can't imagine that.

Cardon Man - 8-7-2009 at 08:45 AM

Skeet...why is it that every Mexican fisherman i know, commercial and sport alike, all agree and lament that this fishery has declined in a big way over the last few decades? I know men that worked at Rancho Buena Vista back in the 60's... all of them to a man recount the old days with a tear in their eye. The massive numbers and variety of fish have dwindled to a mere percentage of historical abundance.

But hey...you say everything is fine. Maybe all those fishermen and their decades of experience are confused and blinded by enviro-propaganda?

Hook - 8-7-2009 at 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto

The one thing that stands out is the Failure to mention the last year and a Half of the Millions of Bait, the Hundreds of Thusands of Dorado and Yellowtail that have increased from the decline in the past 10 years.

All of the truth must be told for anyone to make a value judgment.

I lived , Fished and worked on the Sea of Cortez for 38 years, IT IS NOT RUINED AND WILL NOT BE RUINED

Skeet/Loreto

Where is the empirical evidence to support your contention, Skeet?

Another faith-based contention??????? :rolleyes:

Cardon Man - 8-7-2009 at 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
.Did that Conapesca official REALLY suggest that dorado aquaculture is an option? I can't imagine that.

I don't by that for a second. Aquaculture is not an option.

Skeet/Loreto - 8-7-2009 at 09:08 AM

Yes Cardon Man: there has been declines and Rises in the past 40 years, but in talking to the folks at Buena did you have them compare the number of Sport Fisherman at the time??
The number of Sport Fisherman have declined 85 %.

And yes there are ups and downs like this last one when they took so many Squid, but as of a year ago this April there has been a veryLARGE increase in the number of Bait and Fish .
I have personally been on the water and seen this, I have personally talked to the Fisheman.

Also as a side note did you see the Worldwide report on the increase in Halibut and Cod???
Wonder why no one posted that information on this site.??

Hook, just read The Log of the Sea of Cortez, and Jaques Costonauo{SP}

The shuting off of the Colo. River did not Ruin the Sea
The massive over fishing of the north end took away most of the Shrimp __In that immediate Area___. Take a look at the massive Shrimp at 1500 Feet off of Loreto. Shrimpers where stopped-Shrimp are there.

Same with the Squid, it cause a decline but did not take them all away as a result the fishiong is Fantastic even on the Pacfic.

Wake up you People!!

Skeet

Russ - 8-7-2009 at 09:19 AM

Skeet, We've all read your point of view on this subject.... many times. You are, of course, entitled to your point of view. But every time you suggest that people with an opposite point of view get out on the water and see for themselves how great the fishery is you seem to not take into consideration that many of us live and fish down here now and in the past. Some fish/guide for a living. And I haven't read any articles you've submitted. I have read some articles from the commercial side against Shark Norma changes and they have a well presented side too. I'm really glad your resent fishing trips keep your opinions on the rosy side. I'd just like to here my Mexican acquaintances express your point of view. Also the sport fishing tourist and those of us fortunate enough to live here. Although you may be in the minority of posters that believe the fisheries are healthy, it's refreshing to read such positive commentaries.

On the subject of over fishing....

Cardon Man - 8-7-2009 at 09:27 AM

Take a look at the trailer for the movie "The End of Line", it's flat out frightening.

The end of the line

Skeet/Loreto - 8-7-2009 at 09:41 AM

O>K>

Just take a look at the Pacific ocean with all of its Fish.
There would have to be no Fish in the entire Pacific to swim up the Worlds Fishtrap!!The Sea of Cortez!

As far a sports Fisherman from what I could see on my last trip there was an adbundance of fancy Electronic Fish Spotters on thy Boats.

Could it be that the Sports Fisherman are not finding the Fish.??

Why all of the many, many good reports with Photos of the Fish?.
The Commercials came back in larger numbers this year for One Reason ::There were more fish to be caught.!!

Anyway, I have and will contuine to defend the Sea Of Cortez.

Skeet/Loreto

Hook - 8-7-2009 at 09:55 AM

Gentlemen, this is pointless. He's entitled to his groundless opinion. We can only take heart that, outside of the monied interests surrounding this fishery, it is an infinitesimally small minority opinion.

I guess what astounds me the most is that Skeet seems to be ignoring his own advice. There are accounts by SEVERAL fishermen in the documentary that all contend the fishery is in severe decline. Yet he would have us hire pangas all over again, as if the results MUST be different this time around.

Russ also makes a good point. WE FISHERMEN ARE A SOURCE OF ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE OF THE DECLINE. We remember what it used to be like as recently as the late 90s.

Instead, Skeet would have us believe that we were wizards at finding them back then, but have somehow, as a whole, lost our ability to FIND them. :lol:

Skeet/Loreto - 8-7-2009 at 10:18 AM

No Hook; You are reading it wrong then putting your own turn on things.

If as you say fishing is in a Serious decline, Why all the fish? Why the increase of Commercial Fishing??
Hire the Pangas to go and observe the fish and their habits and their Numbers. Do it Day and night, take pictures etc.

No we were not Wizards but at that ime we used our "Senses" rather than a Machine to observe the fish and how they act.
Andsince you brought it up us ole timers have seen the rise and fall but NO SEVERE DECLINE of the fish starting with the taking of so many sharks in the late 40"s
Sure there was a SEVERE DECLINE in the Squid Population in the last few years which had its effect .
Now the fish are back in Large numbers.
Why do you avoie this Fact. Go to Las Naaimas, Isla San Jose, Sta Catlana, and North.
Don"t set on your duff and take other non Experienced people's word. They probably read the terrible Scato Bee Story. Which was as False as it gets.

Skeet

taoswheat - 8-7-2009 at 10:20 AM

I live in Taos, NM and kayak fish from San Carlos as often as I can. I certainly am not very experienced on the Sea of Cortes, but I can observe. Last year in July, I was on a pre-tournament fishing day on a charter boat and we trolled about 35 miles out and a total of 93 miles travel by GPS and caught 1 Dorado. This is not my idea of a healthy fishery. During the day, we passed two multi-mile longlines with a number of Tortuga and Dorado hooked.
The video was done by Vince Radice, who has mucho Sea of Cortes experience sailing, diving, and running a water based business in San Carlos for many years. He is obviously very concerned about the Sea of Cortes and his concern raises a flag for me. For those living on the Sea, I think a measured level of concern would be healthy.

Russ - 8-7-2009 at 11:43 AM

"Don"t set on your duff and take other non Experienced people's word."
Skeet you're impossible. You won't listen to the "Experienced" words of any one other than your self. Trying to discus this subject with you is hurting my head. It is time YOU put out something other than your opinion and you unlimited knowledge. I won't read/argue this any longer with you. click

Russ - 8-7-2009 at 11:54 AM

Speaking of illegal fisheries.....
Just snapped this about 15 minutes ago He's already half way into the mouth of Conception. If he make a good set there will be 10 more like him by morning and the patrol boat won't show until they gone. :fire:

Skeet/Loreto - 8-7-2009 at 12:06 PM

O. K> Russ. Your Choice of Course.

After all the Beautifull years on the Sea of Cortez withsome great Mexican Fisermen I cannot ever see how the Sea of Cortez can be ruined.

Starting from my first day of fishing of Course there have been changes,sometimes less fish, sometimes more fish. so many different things that cause these declines. Removable of all the sharks nearly 1948.

Taking most of the Shrimp out of San Felipe.

Allowing the Japanese boats to come up and fish.

Long lining off of the Entrance.
Taking out too many Squid at one time.

It just is offensive to see some of these people making such outlandish statements to find that they have never been on the /Sea of Cortez. I guess they learned it from a Proffessor at college who read it in a Book.

Taoswheat; There have been many days that I have been on the Sea and never caught a fish, starting in 1967. The fish move, they bite at different times, that can change in short order depending on Tide, Wind, Bait etc.

Just like it has Changed at Taos where I and my brother killed rabbits at night and sold them to the Publeo Indians for $.25 cents each and in the day time worked in the Woods logging out Tres Rios and hauling the logs to Roswell.

Several months ago I went fishing out of Mulege and saw many fish I could not belive it!! It was like it was 20 years ago with million of bait, yellowtail on top of the water, even Schools of Amberjack up on top.
If you check out the different sites including some of the sailboaters they have reported lots of fish.

Skeet/Loreto

Pescador - 8-7-2009 at 12:35 PM

Skeet, I love you man and consider you to be one of my favorite cantakerous old men, but you have missed the point entirely about the fish population of the Sea of Cortez. Except for this year, because of some other responsibilities, I have fished the Sea of Cortez more than the average bear since the late 1950's. I, like you, have spent countless hours with the native pangueros, I have eaten, traveled with, and lived along side these people who are on the water everyday trying to eke out a living. Since retiring a few years ago, I managed to fish over 200 days a year for all of the fish who inhabit the Sea of Cortez, so even though I am humble and don't think I am the best fisherman in the Sea of Cortez, I do humbly consider myself in the top 20 at least and can unequivocaly tell you that the fish stocks are declining. The fact that I can catch as many fish as I do only happens because I work a lot harder at the whole situation that I had to years ago. So don't do yourself a disservice and assume that because you saw a big school of yellowtail or dorado that the stocks are the same as they were even 10 years ago. We could try to make the same case for Totuava because they now manage to catch a few on some of the mother ships from San Felipe but for the most part they have been overfished and show very little recovery in the last 25 years.
Now I do agree, that the lefties and environmental wackos have oversold this whole idea in order to get you to send your money in and join in their feel-good orginizations that have very little if any effect on what really goes on. I can name on one hand the number of conservation orginizations that actually seem to be doing anything at all for their membership, so we probably stand together in this on the same side of the street, but your inability to clearly see that we do have a problem on our hands is disturbing to me because you normally have a clear sense of vision and foresight on so many other topics. I have no problem with the people who assume they are doing something supporting the loonies like Greenpeace and the others, but hopefully they will try to evaluate over a period of time what has actually occurred and happened instead of getting emotionally worked up over some chestbeating and cheap video shots.
But Skeet, with all due respect, it is time that you realize there are some serious problems with the fish populations in the Sea of Cortez and if your Grandchildren hope to catch a dorado like you had the good fortune to do, you need to take off the blinders and really look.
Finally, I do think that the Sea of Cortez is a magnificent area and with a minimum of intervention, the fish do have a chance.

maspacifico - 8-7-2009 at 01:24 PM

Just curious if there is anyone else that shares the "no problem" point of view here. So far only one guy supports it....so the rest of us are lumped under at least one of the following ..... can't fish......read a book other than the bible......came from California......hippies......sometimes swim nude......have inhaled....
I think I've been insulted!

Skeet/Loreto - 8-7-2009 at 01:25 PM

"Except for this year""

That is my whole point. Since April of last year I have been on the water several times. Each time I was amazxed at the number of Fish and Bait that I observed and It was like it was 20 years ago.

Point being Pesador Why and Where did all these fish come from??????

If there has been so much over fishing :What Happened? Did a whole bunch of Fish stay outside of the Cortez and then last April come back>>>

Why are the Halibut and Cod Fisheries showing improvement.??

Pescador, I can agree that there is a Problem but I do not agree with the Tactics are the People who are trying to Force their way of thinking onto the Mexicano Panga Fisherman. especially someone who has never fished the Sea but is influencied by Book Learing and Spam Artist.

These Tactics are insulting and unecessary.

It seems the only way I can help is try to get people that are reading these things is to Go and find out themselves.

Thanks for a Good Post.

Cypress - 8-7-2009 at 01:40 PM

maspacifico, It's a waste of time to argue with Skeet. He's stuck on his Baja fishing from way back when. He caught some fish.

Skeet/Loreto - 8-7-2009 at 01:46 PM

maspacifico}
Not old enough or smart enough to try to answer some of Question??

How can you Youngsters even think that your Grandchildren of the future are more important than The CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN of the present Day Fisherman.??

It is Absurd to think that you can take from the Poor and "Save it for your Grand Children""

Is that the way this Generation has been taught, if so please do not buy a New Car, save the money so that my Great Grandaughter can drive a New Mercedes in the Future.

Pescador - 8-7-2009 at 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
"Except for this year""

Point being Pesador Why and Where did all these fish come from??????

If there has been so much over fishing :What Happened? Did a whole bunch of Fish stay outside of the Cortez and then last April come back>>>

Why are the Halibut and Cod Fisheries showing improvement.??

Pescador, I can agree that there is a Problem but I do not agree with the Tactics are the People who are trying to Force their way of thinking onto the Mexicano Panga Fisherman. especially someone who has never fished the Sea but is influencied by Book Learing and Spam Artist.

These Tactics are insulting and unecessary.

It seems the only way I can help is try to get people that are reading these things is to Go and find out themselves.

Thanks for a Good Post.

That is a great question and I will try to answer as clearly as I can. One of the great problems with assessing fish stocks or populations is that at any given time we only see the icing on the cake so to speak. It is like trying to count icebergs when only 1/3 sticks above the water. When you see a breezing school of yellowtail, it is easy to assume that there are lots of schools, which there used to be, when in reality the schools are smaller, they occur less frequently, and the overall size has gone down.
The area I am most intimately aware of is the Santa Rosalia area and because I spend a lot of time on the water I have been able to observe that the migrations of yellowtail occur less frequently than they did 10 years ago. When you are out there every day, you begin to see a pattern of size and behavior which is indicative of a schools behavior and population. 10 years ago we had numerous schools all of the time and they were populated by a mixture of schools. At this point we see migrations of one or two schools and all of the fish are what we call "cookie cutter" meaning the same or similar size, similar behavior when hooked, and a similar or school type of feeding behavior. We had some schools that came in for a week or so at a time but when they left, it now occurs that they are not replaced for sometimes up to a week or more. During those times I might have to travel 25 to 50 miles to find other areas with active schools and you knew immediately that the schools were different by the reasons discussed. Ten years ago this was not the case because there were numerous schools that kept the population pretty consistent at all times and there was less need to move to other areas as much as we have to today.
So do not misunderstand what I am saying here. I do not propose that the sea is fished out or that there are no stocks, but I am aware that the catch rate is decreasing instead of increasing. Now the opposite should be the case since my abilities and the abilities of the native fisherman that I associate with are improving all of the time, but the reality is that we are working harder and catching less.
Now complicate this with all of the other factors like tides, water conditions and temps like El Nino and La Nina years, the naturally occuring situations that effect bait fish migrations, red tides, and the like and it is a very complicated situation, but I still feel it is safe to say that we are in a general decline that I have personally felt and experienced. Is it dead? No, but it needs careful watching.

Cypress - 8-7-2009 at 02:10 PM

Pescador, You know what you're talking about.

You live and fish there 24/7/265 days a year.

Only a fool would argue with you about the status of the Sea of Cortez fisheries with you, but there's one born every day. :lol:

Skeet/Loreto - 8-7-2009 at 02:22 PM

Very good Post Pescdor!

What affect did the mass taking of the Squid have on the Yellowtail and the Bait.??

What about the change in the Temp. of the water that lasted about two years??

Now that there are Billions of Shrimp out of Loreto in the deep water, How do you think it will effect the Dorado??

Could it be possible that the Shrimp could migrate North to San Felipe then maybe the Trotruva would come back. I think so.

Again the Point I do not think it is proper or very Nice of anyone from the States to Steal from the Poor Mexicano Fisherman of San Nicholas just so maybe their Grandaughter will be able to catch a Dorado.

And for those Druggies/Nekid people posting on this Thread, How would you feel if the Mexican People decided they wanted to save all that DOPE for their Grandchildren?? Would you stop smoking so that their Grandchildren might have it later??

mtgoat666 - 8-7-2009 at 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
And for those Druggies/Nekid people posting on this Thread, How would you feel if the Mexican People decided they wanted to save all that DOPE for their Grandchildren?? Would you stop smoking so that their Grandchildren might have it later??

Well, skeeter, your analogies are as wrong as your science. That dope doesnn't keep its potency if stored for a long time. So gotta smoke it up and not delay :lol:

Also, it's a renewable crop, just need water and sun.
And why would they sstop exporting it? The economic engine must continue running :lol:

Funny how cranky old guys like skeeter and pescado are anti-science and anti-envor-activist.
Both love the wild and its resources, but hate the only people who make it their mission to organize and protect it.

djh - 8-7-2009 at 02:47 PM

Trying to have a reasonnable conversation (or argue) with Skeet is impossible....

He is as absolute & self righteous in his views as any other absolutist.... who believes that things must absolutely be as he / she / they see it or try to control it to be....

Buy him a cold bottle of "Shut the Puk Up". A Ballena would be best...

djh

Skeet/Loreto - 8-7-2009 at 02:55 PM

DJH

Everyone must have the Right to Execise Their own Free Will and Accord"

Tha I am doing. I keep asking questions and the only one who can answer is pescador.
What is wrong with the rest of you "Young DOPE Smokers:\" Has the ?Weed clouded your mind that you can Think??

Anyway it has been a great Day, I must sign off, go feed the Horses and have a Two-Eyed Tequilla and wonder what will tommorrow bring.

Thanks again Pescador. Good Fishing.

Cardon Man - 8-7-2009 at 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto

Again the Point I do not think it is proper or very Nice of anyone from the States to Steal from the Poor Mexicano Fisherman of San Nicholas just so maybe their Grandaughter will be able to catch a Dorado.

Skeeter you may want to take note that many Mexican nationals are concerned about this issue of illegal commercial fishing. Take for example, Minerva Saenz featured in the documentary. Furthermore...you seem to be defending the rights of corrupt Mexican "fat cats" to continue the illegal harvest and sale of dorado that are worth a fortune to the people of Mexico as a sportfish. Very confusing.

Cypress - 8-7-2009 at 03:14 PM

Skeet/Loreto. Can you hear/read what Pescador and other fishermen are trying to tell you?

It's good to think positive, but at some point it drifts over into the denial catagory. :lol:

flyfishinPam - 8-7-2009 at 03:31 PM

EXCELLENT! thank you for posting this. this is an excellent video for our captains to see at our next meeting. I will contact Minerva to see if I can get a copy in espanol.

Skeet- if I weren't so busy I'd discuss this further but your opinions are opinions but the fact is our fisheries are being threatened in a big way.

Cardon Man - 8-7-2009 at 03:34 PM

Right on Pam. Spread the word and share the video with your captains and anyone who will listen.

Russ - 8-7-2009 at 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Well, skeeter, your analogies are as wrong as your science. That dope doesnn't keep its potency if stored for a long time. So gotta smoke it up and not delay :lol:

Also, it's a renewable crop, just need water and sun.
And why would they sstop exporting it? The economic engine must continue running :lol:

Wow! you should reread your post when you're not high. I've not met Skeet yet and have met Pescador and he is the salt of the earth kind of guy. And not a "cranky old guy". He, as I read his posts, is not an "anti-envor-activist". He said, "Now I do agree, that the lefties and environmental wackos have oversold this whole idea in order to get you to send your money in and join in their feel-good orginizations that have very little if any effect on what really goes on." & "I can name on one hand the number of conservation orginizations that actually seem to be doing anything at all for their membership." That leads me to believe he spends is dollar, what's left of it, wisely. I joined several of those green orgs and learned later they are talk or war. No discernible action towards improving fisheries in Baja. Their news letters sound like a condo pitch man. So I have a similar attitude. Skeet, if you read his posts other than the condition of the fisheries, is a wealth of valuable info. He and I are just passionate in our differing views.

Skeet/Loreto - 8-7-2009 at 04:11 PM

That is the way to go!

Take the income from the Mexicano Fisherman, their Families and close down Pam's Business all for the sake of saying "We did It! we Convinced them that they must not catch anymore Fish, they must be saved for our GrandDChildren.

Why do you think that you have a right to take the food from a Family's Table.?
You did it at Kalamath Falls, do you want to do the same with another Country??

The Commercial Fishing, The Panga Fishing has been going on for Years and will contuine to go on for many more years. When the fishes slow down the Commercials will go elsewhere, then when the fishes increase they will be back. It is an Impossibility for all the fish in the pacific to be taken!!

So why do the Wimpy, weak-minded Individuals keep Hollarin "The Sky is Falling""? Because they want you to beleive all their BS, become involved and send your money in so they can spend it on DOPE!

Why has no one but Pescadora answered the Questions. Do Not you Dummies have any thing to Offer???
Come on Smart Asses Answer the Questions or is it you are Internet Babies and Dopers who have never seen BAJA???

Notice: If a Bunch of you Dummies will offer up about $5,000 each for a 6 months trip from Bay of Los Angeles to Los Delores in the South, I will lead you on a Great Adventure .
We will sleep on the Beach, Fish and observe during the Day, meet and talk with the Pangaeros and really learn the Sea of Cortez.

Will need at least 6 of you with the Balls to take the Adventure- No DOPE ALLOWED.

Skeet

tripledigitken - 8-7-2009 at 04:12 PM

What organization is doing something meaningful to address the excessive commercial fishing in the Sea of Cortez?

mtgoat666 - 8-7-2009 at 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Will need at least 6 of you with the Balls to take the Adventure- No DOPE ALLOWED.

will you provide masseuse, vegeterian fare and top shelf liquor? or is this a live-off-the-land-hunter-gatherer proof of chicken-in-the-sea?

don't know about that no dope rule,...

Cardon Man - 8-7-2009 at 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
What organization is doing something meaningful to address the excessive commercial fishing in the Sea of Cortez?

Great question. But can anything meanigful be done at all? I find myself feeling quite pesemistic with regards to the future. The fish can rebound. Of this I'm sure. But will we let them? I doubt it. So many hungry mouths to feed. So much money to be made killing the last of the great fishes.

Pescador - 8-7-2009 at 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
That is the way to go!

Take the income from the Mexicano Fisherman, their Families and close down Pam's Business all for the sake of saying "We did It! we Convinced them that they must not catch anymore Fish, they must be saved for our GrandDChildren.

Why do you think that you have a right to take the food from a Family's Table.?
You did it at Kalamath Falls, do you want to do the same with another Country??

The Commercial Fishing, The Panga Fishing has been going on for Years and will contuine to go on for many more years. When the fishes slow down the Commercials will go elsewhere, then when the fishes increase they will be back. It is an Impossibility for all the fish in the pacific to be taken!!

So why do the Wimpy, weak-minded Individuals keep Hollarin "The Sky is Falling""? Because they want you to beleive all their BS, become involved and send your money in so they can spend it on DOPE!

Why has no one but Pescadora answered the Questions. Do Not you Dummies have any thing to Offer???
Come on Smart burros Answer the Questions or is it you are Internet Babies and Dopers who have never seen BAJA???

Notice: If a Bunch of you Dummies will offer up about $5,000 each for a 6 months trip from Bay of Los Angeles to Los Delores in the South, I will lead you on a Great Adventure .
We will sleep on the Beach, Fish and observe during the Day, meet and talk with the Pangaeros and really learn the Sea of Cortez.

Will need at least 6 of you with the Balls to take the Adventure- No DOPE ALLOWED.

Skeet

Shoot, sign me up, as long as we are not gonna have any long haired hippies smoking dope and waxing eloquently every night at the campfire about the errors of right wing supremacists, this could be a good trip. Maybe we can get my buddy Cypress to go too and he will find out how good fishing can get down there, shoot I will even share a couple of my secret places.
Russ said it better than anyone. I sent my money and they did nothing except have meetings and wave signs.
I send a few bucks to The Billfish foundation as they did a great job of working with the Mexican Legislature on the Shark Norma bill which was a real disaster but these goofballs who did all the videos on Pistoleros in the Sea of Cortez have done, in my humble opinion, nada.
And Skeet, I agree, it is totally out of line for a bunch of Americans to want to come in and try to shut down fishing so that they have a few fish to show off to their buddies when it is a life and death matter for the local fisherman. Whatever I don't eat that night goes to my buddy who is a local fisherman and at least he is better able to feed his family and send his daughter to college in the hope that she might have a better life. But I also know that it takes the two best fisherman I know to catch enough fish to even cover the tuition.

flyfishinPam - 8-7-2009 at 04:36 PM

At this point I do not care about my business as much as I do in preserving the resource. without it it will be gone forever, ALL opportunities will disappear. I am not afraid to admit it.

What questions did you have Skeet I haven't read through all of this, just saw the link and am finally on a computer that I can watch Youtube on so after seeing the series I commented.

Skeet/Loreto - 8-7-2009 at 04:56 PM

Pam:
Questions:

Why do you think that there has been a increase in the Fish starting from April 08?

Do you think the very Heavy Fishing for Squid has made a difference in the fishing in the Loreto Area?

How many of your Fisherman have gone out to mercnarious Reed in the Past 6 Months.?How many of you Fisherman have gone North as far as Delefonso in the past year??

How many of your Fisherman have gone to Las Animas in the Past year??

How many of your Fisherman have been more that 15 miles off of Carmen in the past 6 months?

Pam, I do not, do not think it is up to a bunch of Americans or Canadians to try and shut down the Fishery to "Save it for our Grandchildren Deal"".

There is no way you or your Children will ever see the time they cannot catch Dorado on the Sea of Cortez.
Yes there will be declines and surges of lots of fish, but there are not enough Commercial Boats that will be brought in to stop the fish coming.

It will not Happen> It is a Scare Tactic. Starteded by the "Greenpecker" Deal is part of the New Generation trying to take it out on the Old Folks. They have to find someone to blame for all of their Whimpy Failures.

Maybe if I can get 6 or 7 people together to make a survey we can report on the facts.

Just because you may have a slow down is not to be blameed on the lack of Fish. Remmember that every day you open for Business!!

maspacifico - 8-7-2009 at 05:01 PM

It is Mexico. It's their own laws that are being circumvented. It's their own officials that are being bought off. And when the videos and articles show how much has been lost it's the lone panguero that is held up as the guy that's going to be hurt by enforcement, not the guy with the fleet of boats with the longlines that is doing the most damage. It all adds up though. If you fished here thirty years ago you know there were more fish. It is still a great place to fish and there are plenty of good days...but when you say it's as good now....you lose my respect.
Pescador.....if I slam the left wing idiots as much as the right wing idiots......then can I come? There is plenty of blame to go around.

Cypress - 8-7-2009 at 05:03 PM

Jeez! :no:

woody with a view - 8-7-2009 at 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Pescador, You know what you're talking about.

You live and fish there 24/7/265 days a year.

Only a fool would argue with you about the status of the Sea of Cortez fisheries with you, but there's one born every day. :lol:

where did the other 100 days go? :lol:

Russ - 8-7-2009 at 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
What organization is doing something meaningful to address the excessive commercial fishing in the Sea of Cortez?

Pam, Pescador mentioned The Billfish Foundation can you add any other organizations that actually spend the donations received to better the fisheries?

dtbushpilot - 8-7-2009 at 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Pescador, You know what you're talking about.

You live and fish there 24/7/265 days a year.

Only a fool would argue with you about the status of the Sea of Cortez fisheries with you, but there's one born every day. :lol:

where did the other 100 days go? :lol:

I'm fishing the other 100 days woody and I catch fish every time I go whether from a boat or shore. Ok, I lied, there have been times when I didn't catch anything but not many. More often I have to remind my fellow fisherpersons that we have caught our limit and need to release the rest.

I haven't had the "many years" of experience that some here have had but I've been around the Baja fishing block a time or two. I can only speak for the East cape region and the fishing here has never been better for game fish (bill fish, tuna, dorado).

I release most fish that I catch but keep what I can eat. I don't fall for that "we'll give it to the orphanage" line to justify killing a marlin.

If you can't catch a fish in the SOC you should find another hobby......dt

Cypress - 8-7-2009 at 05:24 PM

woody in ob, :biggrin:

Thanks!

365 in days a year.

Skeet/Loreto - 8-7-2009 at 05:31 PM

On April 8th 2008 I did go fishing from Mulege. Went down to the Point off of Conception> I do hereby swear that the fishing was the best I had seen in the past 20 years!

I do agree that the fishing has changed in the 20 years before that time. Such as smaller schools of yellowtail but many more schools as a whole. And the Fish pileups seem to diasapper.

I think that for some reason the large schools broke up to chase the mackeral instead of feeding on the Sierra which was close in to the shore.!
When the Sierra were taken for Fertilizer the yellows move out and went deeper and changed tactics.

Suggestion for a Young College Student;
Apply for the Chance to do your Theis on the Fisheries around DelFonso Island. Go to the Island and live on it for one years observing, recording all that occurs in and around it.
Make a great Story and I am sure there is Stimulus money around for such a study. Try the University of Arizona.

Skeet/Loreto - 8-7-2009 at 05:35 PM

Pleae would some of you Youngsters try to answer some of the Questions??

flyfishinPam - 8-7-2009 at 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Pam:
Questions:

Why do you think that there has been a increase in the Fish starting from April 08?

which species are you questioning Dorado? if you are refering to dorado their natural migratory cycle would have us seeing more now in August than in April but what is the point in this question?

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Do you think the very Heavy Fishing for Squid has made a difference in the fishing in the Loreto Area?

I think and this is supported by fact, the high number of squid indicates an unhealthy fishery, mainly in the fact that their natural predators, sharks have been severely depleted due to over-harvesting by commercial entities.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
How many of your Fisherman have gone out to mercnarious Reed in the Past 6 Months.?How many of you Fisherman have gone North as far as Delefonso in the past year??

We fish where the fish are and those locations have been fished by us for the past six weeks almost exclusively. In the Spring we didn't have to go that far for the YT as we focused on the north portion of Carmen.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
How many of your Fisherman have gone to Las Animas in the Past year??

ahhh las Animas the southern waters that we basically do not fish anymore BECAUSE THERE ARE NO FREAKING FISH LEFT! the pistoleros took care fo the reef fish and the cameroneros that convert to longliners have wiped out the rest.

When was the last time you fished there?

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
How many of your Fisherman have been more that 15 miles off of Carmen in the past 6 months?

of my fishermen? the last six months...from early May when we started hunting for the pelagics over a hundred but in the last few weeks none because the offshore SST's are too warm and at this point we're looking for the cooler water which happens to be along the shorelines from San Bruno past Ildefonso island.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Pam, I do not, do not think it is up to a bunch of Americans or Canadians to try and shut down the Fishery to "Save it for our Grandchildren Deal"".

Soy Mexicano and it is right to do what I can to preserve our fishery for our future generations. As a biologist it is my obligation to seek the truth and educate our fellow citizens that this affects.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
There is no way you or your Children will ever see the time they cannot catch Dorado on the Sea of Cortez.
Yes there will be declines and surges of lots of fish, but there are not enough Commercial Boats that will be brought in to stop the fish coming.

at the rate this resources is being over-harvested, even the conapesca guy near the end of the film admitted to it. did you notice the map on where the populations of dorado will be in 2050??? just because I may not be living then does not excuse me from fulfilling my duty to future generations. many many others here feel the same and that is why we are coming together on this. you have not heard the last of this movement.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
It will not Happen> It is a Scare Tactic. Starteded by the "Greenpecker" Deal is part of the New Generation trying to take it out on the Old Folks. They have to find someone to blame for all of their Whimpy Failures.

Maybe if I can get 6 or 7 people together to make a survey we can report on the facts.

on gathering the facts and conducting interviews its already being done. I do not believe everything I am told or read I go out and see for myself before making any decision as to what my opinion will be. I have made my living 100% off the Sea of Cortez for the past 13 years and we are experiencing a severe decline in several key species.

for a country that relies on tourism so heavily the fisheries agency that should be managing and protecting this resource, one that belongs to ALL of us is doing a dismal hack job...just listen to Minerva's words!!!

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Just because you may have a slow down is not to be blameed on the lack of Fish. Remmember that every day you open for Business!!

a slow down of what sort, tourists no we haven't had a slowdown of tourists but I am obligated to give factual information and I believe it is my duty and that of others to preserve the resource so that others can also have opportunities to make their living off of it as well, future generations as well as present.

flyfishinPam - 8-7-2009 at 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Russ

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
What organization is doing something meaningful to address the excessive commercial fishing in the Sea of Cortez?

Pam, Pescador mentioned The Billfish Foundation can you add any other organizations that actually spend the donations received to better the fisheries?

SeaWatch
Eco Alianza de Loreto, although our program Pescadores Vigilantes is just beginning we gotta start somewhere.

taoswheat - 8-7-2009 at 06:40 PM

This is off topic but---- OK Skeet, I'll bite. How did you get from Taos to Loretto?
And I still think trolling 93 miles should get to some fish. We covered a lot of territory, not just circling in one spot.
What are your thoughts on catch and release? Is it beneficial?
Yeh I know- I'm asking and you wanted answers!
You must be as old as me, maybe older if that is possible.
Regards

flyfishinPam - 8-8-2009 at 05:39 AM

Skeet.

This morning before sending out boats I was detained in the "library" where I had a chance to read the posts you made early on in this thread. You defend the poor Mexicano panguero which is noble and so do I and others here.

If you looked at the film you would notice right off the bat they describe that kind of person as being exploited which they are. Guess what kind of pay the guys that are fishing or processing the fish are getting per day? My best guess is that the guys working in the processing plant make less than 100 pesos per day and probably are under contract and not covered by benefits of seguro social and infonavit. The fishermen working out at sea are probably pulling in less than 200 pesos per day and also not seeing any benefits.

Meanwhile the fat cats that you defend are the ones making all of the money while the poor Mexicano is forced to remove what is theirs and what is the key to their future of a dignified life for these fat cats. Please look at these movies, I do not think you have done that. Listen to the words. It helps to be bilingual because not all of the Spanish is translated and not all of the English is translated either but even for the English speaker it is clear. They repeat throughout this film the fact that the fat cats that have the permits and work these guys like slave labour are taking and taking at an unsustainable level. Once this resource is gone you can say goodbye to commercial fishing and to fishing tourism and the opportunities that go with it.

On the other hand last evening after I signed off a captain of mine came in to get paid. I forked over $5,000 dollars to him for the last 15 days of work. That's a lot of dough and this is repeated over all of the other captains that I employ. He thanked me for the opportunity to have this work and of course I thanked him for making my job possible. Without him and guys like him I couldn't pull this off. He used to be a commercial fisherman. Then he started tourism and only worked commercial part time. Now he has given up commercial fishing entirely and he is one of the most concerned captains regarding the state of the declining fishery and the increasingly encroaching large scale commercial takes.

I am not against commercial fishing at all but I am against an agency that is supposed to manage and protect the resource being its biggest enemy. I wish to see and offer opportunities for these guys to make a decent living and in dignity. My guys have been able to build decent homes over the years, buy cars, improve their boats or add boats, but equipment such as updated rods/reels, electronics... what kind of conditions do you suppose those commercial fishermen and their families live in?

we ARE on the same page my friend we want the same outcome, opportunity, dignity, happiness, and freedom.

well my espresso is ready and I need a work break have been up since 3 working.

Skeet/Loreto - 8-8-2009 at 06:04 AM

Taos Wheat: I am only 78 going on to 79 soon.
It was a long trip from Taos to Loreto through Hollywood, and other parts of the Country doing many things.

Now Pam I have one more question after stating that I do not support Fat Cats of any kind. I think about my Friends in San Nicholas, Los Delores, Loreto particualiry the Panga Fisherman.

The sports fisherman come down to fish , then are "Run off' by the socalled Natrual Park of Loreto, That enables good people like you to make a lot of money off of Fishing. That is fine.

But to think that you must have the Right to control those Generations ahead of you is Ludicrious!

Look what happened when the Greatest Generation tried to contol our Youth-Ended up with the "If it feels good , just do It" plus a whole lot of DOPE Addicits.

I only report what I have seen in the Past 2 years compared to what I have seen in the past 35 years.

There is still Mucho Fish in the Sea of Cortez.

flyfishinPam - 8-8-2009 at 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Now Pam I have one more question after stating that I do not support Fat Cats of any kind. I think about my Friends in San Nicholas, Los Delores, Loreto particualiry the Panga Fisherman.

The sports fisherman come down to fish , then are "Run off' by the socalled Natrual Park of Loreto, That enables good people like you to make a lot of money off of Fishing. That is fine.

First of all I did not come here for money. If I wanted money I would have continued as a synthetic organic chemist in the pharmaceutical industry out of the lab and explaining basic chemistry principles to fda lawyers that have no clue. We do not make a lot of money but we make a fair and decent living. We have a roof over our heads, we drive cars that are at least 15 years old but run well, kids in private school, we're not starving but we certainly don't make a fortune by any means and that is fine with me.

As far as making money off our permission of working within the park we follow the rules that we must follow. In these management plan meetings there are some who want to limit the number of permits given and even stop them at what they are in order to create a monopoly for themselves or increase the value of their business. I am not one of these people.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
But to think that you must have the Right to control those Generations ahead of you is Ludicrious!

OK then with your logic we should just take what we want and offer nothing in return to those who will come after us? And don't future generations have the same right to enjoy what we are able to enjoy now? Disregard for those who travel the road after me is against my personal philosophy. I am not selfish in this respect and in this I do not feel that I must control anything, but I have the right and obligation to preserve the resource for those who will follow after I am long gone. Its too bad you do not share this opinion maybe that's where the greatest generation went wrong.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Look what happened when the Greatest Generation tried to contol our Youth-Ended up with the "If it feels good , just do It" plus a whole lot of DOPE Addicits.

well the mindset of the greatest generation to take what they feel is theirs yet leave nothing or very little for those that follow is nothing shore of pure selfishness. this is the same mindset who believes it is OK to burden future generations for our foolishness ans stupidity and overindulgency by saddling them with an enormous tax burden. this will enslave them as the debtholders will eventually call in that debt and somebody will have to pay.

selfishness. that's the example the feel good generation had set out in front of them and you wonder why the feel goods turned out the way they did!

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
I only report what I have seen in the Past 2 years compared to what I have seen in the past 35 years.

funny in some of your questions you are comparing with 20 years ago. that is about when the asian ships were really hauling in the fish and when article 68 went into effect. the current ley federal de pesca was published in 1994 so hopefully you would see an improvement. now the laws that are in place are not enforced due to corruption, greed and selfishness.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
There is still Mucho Fish in the Sea of Cortez.

you won't get an argument out of me there but we need to actively participate to keep it that way because if we all had your attitude we wouldn't be able to say this for very long.

now my question to you:

have you watched this series of three films in its entirety?
do you notice it is made for and by Mexicanos yet also addressed to the english speaking tourist who should also be concerned?
what can you offer after seeing this?

[Edited on 8-8-2009 by flyfishinPam]

Cardon Man - 8-8-2009 at 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dtbushpilot

I can only speak for the East cape region and the fishing here has never been better for game fish (bill fish, tuna, dorado).

Wow, that's a heavy claim. Sure, the Cape fishes pretty good at times and an angler who sets his mind to targeting and catching pelagics will find some. But to say the fishing has never been better is disingenous in my opinion.

I've noticed that when the subject of decreasing fish stocks in the Cortez comes up, some fisherman get a little defensive. No one's arguing that there are still high quality fishing experiences to be had in the Sea of Cortez. Thank god for that. But to defend the quality/quantity of the fishing as being on parr with years past is off base.

Is the fishing as good as it was when Rancho Buena Vista first opened in the 1950's?...When the hotel boats never left Palmas Bay, never traveled very far off shore and caught every sort of fish imaginable? When big tuna lived at "the slides" north of Los Barriles year round? When you could catch big pargo and cabrilla "at will"? When migrating yellowtail swarmed in giant schools along the beach and guys like Ray Cannon would catch those big yellows from shore?

I'd take a trip back in time over the fishing today without a doubt.

dtbushpilot - 8-8-2009 at 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cardon Man

Quote:

Originally posted by dtbushpilot

I can only speak for the East cape region and the fishing here has never been better for game fish (bill fish, tuna, dorado).

Well then, have a nice trip......dt

LancairDriver - 8-8-2009 at 09:03 AM

For those who haven't experienced fishing baja 20 to 30 years ago the bar is set a lot lower as far as what to expect. As has been mentioned, you can still stumble on large schools of fish today, but there is no comparison with the past.

Pescador - 8-8-2009 at 09:49 AM

Pam, you did an excellent job of really getting down to the basics of what is going on in Loreto. God love Skeet, he is worried about a bunch of big mouthed gringos shutting off the fishing like they have done with a lot of areas in California.
I think the other area where I have really noticed a major decline is inshore where I have done and continue to do a lot of freediving and snorkeling. The whole pattern of life there is a disaster with many species not even showing anymore and it gets more difficult all the time to find any other living creatures in that environ. This is probably the biggest reason that Cypress was disappointed in the fishery of the Sea of Cortez compared to inshore in Louisiana where they have stopped most of the netting and destructive practices.
I see a few hopeful signs on the horizon but mostly I am really saddened because I understand that the corruption and abuse will probably continue for some time. It is a testament to the healing stregth of the S of C that has allowed it to survive as well as it has.

Cypress - 8-8-2009 at 11:31 AM

flyfishinPam and Pescador, Thanks for your wisdom. Wish you both luck. There're a lot of folks, tourists and seasonals, down along the Sea of Cortez that don't have a clue as to what good fishing actually is. The pelagics fool them, they think catching a few seasonal fish adds up to great fishing. It's the year 'round reef fish; adult grouper and pargo that are the true indicators of the health of the fishery. They're more or less gone.

Skeet/Loreto - 8-8-2009 at 11:45 AM

Pescador" I haven't Worried in over 40 years- When I started going to Baja.

"If Roberta had had Balls, we would have called her Uncle Robert"

Nowto Fishing:
Yes I went through the times of Fish Pile ups, a half a mile of Yellowtail on top of the water.
Caught many yellowtail from the Shore at San Nicholas(then they took the Sierra out and things started to change, They moved out to deeper water,

Then the Japanese boats came in for a short time meawhile up at San Felipe the Shrimp where being taken out, The Tortava are nearly all gone.
Then there would be 80 Boats out getting Bait at Loreto.

Then the Natl park came, limits etc.}Corruption}?

Then Hannjin bought all of the SQuid and took nearly all for 3 years.

Thyen the Scramento Bee publishes its famous False Story about the Sea of Cortez.

Then in April of o8 I start fishing out of Mulege and see the fishing as it was so many years ago including amounts of Fish. {Some real Dummy suggest that it only happened for a couple of Days in that area}. Then I start fishing and investigating North and South and found that it is indeed a Great year, then reports start coming in from The pacific, still a great Year,

Pam, Why do you and others refuse to say "We had a Great Year"??

have those descendants of ours been so Lied to about the Actual Fishing they refuse to beleive what they see in front of them. Look a all the reports. Photos.

To the other comments. Yes Pam I do not beleive in trying to Control my Chiuldrens future> I beldeve in teaching them Morals such as Honesty, Respect, Faith Hope and chairty. I teach them that Drugs are not for the Strong Minded, I teach them not to insist that their children only beleive as I did.

I refuse to beleive in taking from the Mexican Family making a living for his family under the Rude and Aggaront beleif that it should be saved for my future Grand Children.

Just to satisfy some Jayhoo lying to people to get their money. I watched this film again and I will warn everybody to check the back ground of the people. Check their education.

Skeet

Cypress - 8-8-2009 at 01:00 PM

Gosh!

Skeet reminds me of my inlaws, lost somewhere between la-la-land and denial. It's a waste of time to debate with him. When all is said and done, the facts remain the same. :no:

Skeet/Loreto - 8-8-2009 at 02:45 PM

Cypress! Finally you know the Facts!

Will you be so kind to List those Facts'

P.S. Just a little bit of Proof should accumpany those "Facts>

Skeet

Cypress - 8-8-2009 at 03:00 PM

Skeet/Loreto, Listing Facts? Go fishing out of Mulege for Grouper and Pargo. Show me your pictures. Facts? You can't handle the facts.

I'm wondering if you even know what the "facts" are?

Skeet/Loreto - 8-8-2009 at 03:38 PM

Now Now Cypress we were originally talking about Yellowtail and Dorado!

Muelge, the Grouper Capital of the World has not had many grouper for many years. Now if you want some large Pargo go down to about 300 yds North/Northwest of Delfonso, go down about 300 Ft. with a couple of Live Bait and HANG ON!

Do not depend on Pompanos Photos. Do it your self or if you have trouble finding the fish ask Alex. I am sure he could help you find them.

Go back and check that Awful Fim I am talking about, opeing with that Beautifull Dorado.

Some time if you get a chance go talk to Saul Davis, just ask him about the fishing and what he thinks about the Sea of Cortez being ruined.

Cypress - 8-8-2009 at 03:49 PM

Yea, You were originally talking about the fishing in the Sea of Cortez. Now it's Yellowtail and Dorado. Cranking up a grouper, pargo or much of anything else from 300 feet isn't a whole lot of fun., but you can blow their bladder about half way up.

mtgoat666 - 8-8-2009 at 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Pescador" I haven't Worried in over 40 years- When I started going to Baja.

"If Roberta had had Balls, we would have called her Uncle Robert"

Nowto Fishing:
Yes I went through the times of Fish Pile ups, a half a mile of Yellowtail on top of the water.
Caught many yellowtail from the Shore at San Nicholas(then they took the Sierra out and things started to change, They moved out to deeper water,

Then the Japanese boats came in for a short time meawhile up at San Felipe the Shrimp where being taken out, The Tortava are nearly all gone.
Then there would be 80 Boats out getting Bait at Loreto.

Then the Natl park came, limits etc.}Corruption}?

Then Hannjin bought all of the SQuid and took nearly all for 3 years.

Thyen the Scramento Bee publishes its famous False Story about the Sea of Cortez.

Then in April of o8 I start fishing out of Mulege and see the fishing as it was so many years ago including amounts of Fish. {Some real Dummy suggest that it only happened for a couple of Days in that area}. Then I start fishing and investigating North and South and found that it is indeed a Great year, then reports start coming in from The pacific, still a great Year,

Pam, Why do you and others refuse to say "We had a Great Year"??

have those descendants of ours been so Lied to about the Actual Fishing they refuse to beleive what they see in front of them. Look a all the reports. Photos.

To the other comments. Yes Pam I do not beleive in trying to Control my Chiuldrens future> I beldeve in teaching them Morals such as Honesty, Respect, Faith Hope and chairty. I teach them that Drugs are not for the Strong Minded, I teach them not to insist that their children only beleive as I did.

I refuse to beleive in taking from the Mexican Family making a living for his family under the Rude and Aggaront beleif that it should be saved for my future Grand Children.

Just to satisfy some Jayhoo lying to people to get their money. I watched this film again and I will warn everybody to check the back ground of the people. Check their education.

Skeet

skeet,
what is your obsession with drugs? you sound like a man who likes his liquor, which last time i drank it sure was a drug. so how is liquor different than a hit of good pot?
anywho, i think you sound like a man who likes to live life, so why not try pot?
you constantly preach about drugs while knocking back your daily highball or two, so must be some backstory with you. spill the beans, old man.

Skeet/Loreto - 8-9-2009 at 06:45 AM

Goat I would suggest that you first take a Trip to San Quintin Prison
Soledad Prison
Chino
Folson
Carso0n City nevada

Spend a little time in each as I did while getting my Degree at Fresno State in Police Science.

Next go to The Mountains of Carolinas, South Central LA, Hollywood, Oakland or any City in the US. and visit some of emergency Wards.

Go to the Police records and check out the DUI and the drug related Accidents and deaths.

Go to the Health records of Babys born to Addicts/

Sure it would be O.K. if everyone could have a toke or a Drink every day with out some of the results but that aun't the way it happens.
If DOPe{Smoke} was only allowed and used it would be o.K. except for the Drivers who killed your family while smoking DOPE or Drinking To much BOOSE/

Goat if you think " Well everybody drinks Booze" so that justifys me smoking DOPE, then you should go back to School. That is a Cop Out.

Try looking up what it costs you thru Taxes each year, just to take care of the Street Dopers{Who are not all on DOPE but a good percentage are!

taoswheat - 8-9-2009 at 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
flyfishinPam and Pescador, Thanks for your wisdom. Wish you both luck. There're a lot of folks, tourists and seasonals, down along the Sea of Cortez that don't have a clue as to what good fishing actually is. The pelagics fool them, they think catching a few seasonal fish adds up to great fishing. It's the year 'round reef fish; adult grouper and pargo that are the true indicators of the health of the fishery. They're more or less gone.

This comment fits with my kayak fishing experiences. I fish the local rocks and underwater humps out to about 2-3 miles. There are very few good bottom fish to be found most of the time. I see the Pangueros on every available spot with handlines, nets, and Hooka air rigs. It appears that the shallow underwater environment is stripped of anything that moves. So far, my best fishing has been for trolled Dorado (seasonal Pelagics) when they happen to come in close enough to reach.

Farbauti - 8-9-2009 at 07:47 AM

I emailed the 'illegal dorado catch' info to all our contacts, not just those in Mexico, but world-wide. Snowballing makes a difference.

The inshore reefs and shorelines are in a sorry state compared to the days of yesteryear. Remember all the 'noise' you used to hear? Almost a graveyard snorkeling there now.

Skeet/Loreto - 8-9-2009 at 07:58 AM

Farbuti:
I am in the process of having Bumper stickers made up and sending them all over Southern Calif, Canada for Free;

The Sea of Cortez is not Ruined"
FISH BAJA
I will do everything in my Power to tell our Children the Truth about The Sea of Cortez.
I will do everyting I can to teach anyone that we can not Rob the Mexican Fisherman and his Family the right to make a living just so we can say "I saved the fish for my GrandChidren.

I will urge my Chilren to learn , Investigate, make valid decesions on their own and not listen to a bunch of College Professors and GreenPecker Nuts who have never been out of the Clasroom or have never fished the Sea Of Cortez.

Farbauti - 8-9-2009 at 08:05 AM

Hah!...GreenPecker Nuts....good one, Skeet/Loeto! I spurted coffee when I just read that. Hoo-boy.

Russ - 8-9-2009 at 08:13 AM

Not really Dorado related but I haven't seen a bait ball in the bay in front of me in a month. This time of year there should be lots of sardines, mullet, anchovies & mackerel. When I took "Little Boat" out on it's maiden voyage I did find a shoal of pinhead anchovies. None over 1". Nothing was working them except a lone pelican and he quit after a couple scoops. So far this month there haven't been any sardineros only one converted shrimper dragging long lines for two days and I don't see it this morning.
Pretty simple, No food no fish. However there are two gill netting pangas trying to scrounge out a living.

Barry A. - 8-9-2009 at 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Farbuti:
I am in the process of having Bumper stickers made up and sending them all over Southern Calif, Canada for Free;

The Sea of Cortez is not Ruined"
FISH BAJA
I will do everything in my Power to tell our Children the Truth about The Sea of Cortez.
I will do everyting I can to teach anyone that we can not Rob the Mexican Fisherman and his Family the right to make a living just so we can say "I saved the fish for my GrandChidren.

I will urge my Chilren to learn , Investigate, make valid decesions on their own and not listen to a bunch of College Professors and GreenPecker Nuts who have never been out of the Clasroom or have never fished the Sea Of Cortez.

Sorry Skeet, I cannot support you on this one. With over 55 years of fishing the SOC it is my opinion and experience that the SOC is in serious trouble----------fish tend to be near shore, so the "resource" is far smaller than we previously thought, certainly not "ocean-wide" or even "sea-wide".
I feel the commercial fishing is the main culprit, mainly the shrimpers and the long-liners. We were very concerned about the long-liners 50 years ago, and things are still out of control. It all started with the cutting off of the Colorado River-------------and went from there.

Yes, "Science" often over-reacts and comes to ignorant decisions, but in this case the evidence is just too obvious and continuing.

As for the locals, they will have to adjust---------they are part of the problem and many of them realize it------they just don't know what else to do so they continue their destructive habits, killing the goose that laid the golden egg, so to speak.

I watched the fishery off San Diego be depleted, and now is a mere shawdow of what it was--------personal experiece is a big teacher.

That it my take.

Barry

Skeet/Loreto - 8-9-2009 at 08:26 AM

Russ: Sounds as if the Commercials did their Job and left.
Bait will be back, Fish will be Back. Hang in there for another Season.
Skeet

Russ - 8-9-2009 at 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Russ: Sounds as if the Commercials did their Job and left.
Bait will be back, Fish will be Back. Hang in there for another Season.
Skeet

Riiiight. I could care less about my limited bad luck but you've expressed your concerns for the families trying to make a living and there must be 50 or more pangas in the Mulége area. They use to hand line then gill net and now their boats are beached. You should be outraged like so many others.
Are you outrage that your friends can't feed their families because ".... the Commercials did their Job and left."?
"Bait will be back, Fish will be Back. Hang in there for another Season."
DAMN What do the pangeros do NOW?

[Edited on 8-9-2009 by Russ]

[Edited on 8-9-2009 by Russ]

"Bait will be back, Fish will be Back. Hang in there for another Season."

mulege marv - 8-9-2009 at 11:39 AM

"Bait will be back, Fish will be Back. Hang in there for another Season."

yes but there are a few more "be backs", seiners, long liners, and shrimpers will "be back" also. not just the americans have complained to the powers to be so have the local pangeros, it does no good. this has been one of the worst years i have every experinced in my short time here in mulege. if you look at mexfish very rarely is there even a report from mulege because there is nothing to report, and when there is its not very good. 18 seiners working 24/7 for 2 months and to think that doesnt have an impact is just plain stupid. the fishing in mulege sucks skeet, no other way to say it and every here knows why. its OVER FISHED COMMERCIALLY

[Edited on 8-9-2009 by mulege marv]

Skeet/Loreto - 8-9-2009 at 02:00 PM

Why did it get overfished??

Because starting in April2008 it was Fantastic Fishing and the Big Commercials came back in an have now had a chance to Loaad up. They will leave and await unti the next time it gets good again..

Please think about it. Commercial fishing has been going on for many years, yet the Fish keep coming back as they did in in the Past year and half!!

Why do they keep coming back??>> Because they leave the Sea of Cortez and do not get caught out in the Big pacific Ocean, then when the time is right, they come back.

Even the closing of the Colo. River did not ruin the Great Sea of Cortez.

Skeet

mtgoat666 - 8-9-2009 at 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Why did it get overfished??

Because starting in April2008 it was Fantastic Fishing and the Big Commercials came back in an have now had a chance to Loaad up. They will leave and await unti the next time it gets good again..

Please think about it. Commercial fishing has been going on for many years, yet the Fish keep coming back as they did in in the Past year and half!!

Why do they keep coming back??>> Because they leave the Sea of Cortez and do not get caught out in the Big pacific Ocean, then when the time is right, they come back.

Even the closing of the Colo. River did not ruin the Great Sea of Cortez.

Skeet

hey skeeter:
large seines and long lines will keep coming back until the fisheries is destroyed past point of no return or extinct. commercial fishermen keep returning is not evidence of a healthy ecosystem, is evidence that they have decimated legal fishing grounds and therefore are fishing the illegal fishing grounds.

skeeter, how do you reconcile commercial fishing with decimation of sea turtles and near extinction of vaquita? (i know sports fishermen don't care about bycatch of nonsports species, but they should)

Russ - 8-9-2009 at 02:44 PM

Paaaaleeeze...
"Because starting in April2008 it was Fantastic Fishing and the Big Commercials came back in an have now had a chance to Loaad up. They will leave and await unti the next time it gets good again.."
They've been in the for the 15 years I have and I suspect aren't going away any time soon.
I know you're having a blast yanking my chain. I mean it I'm done... click

mtgoat666 - 8-9-2009 at 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Even the closing of the Colo. River did not ruin the Great Sea of Cortez.
Skeet

skeet,
using colo river as example of healthy eco system in mexico is ludicrous.
overuse of the colo river ruined the colorado river, and ruined the delta which was once a nursery for fish stock, and was a major bird haven for migratory bird species -- the northern end of SOC is now a dead zone compared to what it once was.
overuse and final destruction of colo river destroyed much, even if you in your rose colored glasses (tequila goggles?) can't see the effect in southern SOC sportsfishing.

monoloco - 8-9-2009 at 03:36 PM

If you don't think the fish stocks are being depleted go back and read Ray Cannon's Sea of Cortez. When was the last time anybody saw a hundred mile long school of tuna? I have been fishing the sea and the pacific ocean for 25 years and while we still have some epic days overall the numbers of fish have declined.

don't say I din't warn you...

djh - 8-9-2009 at 03:59 PM

trying to have a civil or logical conversation or dialogue or disagreement or arguement with Skeet is....

A WASTE OF TIME !!!

When some one is an ABSOLUTIST, they stop listening, stop hearing, disconnect, YELL their opinions and insults as "absolute truths", and become irrational ~ often dangerous....

Hmmm... describing this reminds me of the absolutist, extremist, fundamentalist Sharia Muslems that seek to destroy anyone who even questions their absolute truths (let alone disagrees..).... Yup, you're about as likely to have a civil discussion ~ or change the thinking of one of those folks.

On the flip side.... Maybe you've given ol Skeet a new mission in life....

Skeet said: "I will do everything in my Power to tell our Children the Truth about The Sea of Cortez.
I will do everyting I can to teach anyone that we can not Rob the Mexican Fisherman and his Family the right to make a living just so we can say "I saved the fish for my GrandChidren."

Maybe that'll keep him busy for a while so he won't have time to drink his several Tequillas and then call anyone who disagrees with him a Drug Addict !!!

Skeet/Loreto - 8-9-2009 at 04:11 PM

O. K. Here we Go?

1. The Colo. River was closed and there was some response from the Mesicanos that it would cause problems with the fishing, It did!! But now over 40 years later there was a Fantastic year of Fihing from April 2008.
Now it maybe that some of the responders stay in real close to Shore and are not smart enough to go a Little further out. Or it maybe that some of the fisherman do not spend the nite at Pt. Lobos early in the season therefore do not get that great early bite as the Sun comes up.

Or it maybe be that some of thos Fisherman never make the 40 mile run to Las Animas when the Yellow fin only come up that far during the Season.

Or it maybe that the Sports Fisherman does not get up early enough and go out 30 Miles to the Reef for some of the most fantastic fishing there is {6 weeks ago}.
Or it maybe that some of the So called fisherman do not go toi Del Fonso and beyond. maybe they have not found the Lingcod that is off of Pulpito.{11 weeks ago}.If you so called Fisherman are going to depend on the News from the GreenPeckers to wonder why you are not catching fish, and if you are going to depend on those "Fish Finding Machines
to find your fish your are Lost!!

You are talking like a bunch of Cry Baby Wimps. if you don't catch fish on your firest drop only a mile from Loreto.
Go out fish late in the Day. Spend the nite on the Beach fish at Daybreak. The Fish are there and sure the Commercials are making it tough.

But

When the Tough gets Rough the Tougfer get Tougfer.

Skeet/Loreto - 8-9-2009 at 04:15 PM

Please go to the Bay of Los Angeles report for Fishin/\\Oh! but that is just a Happenstance!

BS The fishing is Fantastic. Fish Baja

Barry A. - 8-9-2009 at 04:22 PM

Skeet--------for 50+ years I have been fishing out of Bahia de los Animas and BOLA and I have NEVER used a "fish finder"------just a 14 foot tin-boat with a 15hp Johnson, and we have fished within about 30 miles of our camp, both north and south, and occasionally out about 15 miles east at sea------------it has been getting slower and slower over the past 50 years, PERIOD, but I grant you we ALWAYS catch fish. I just think that it is being depleted by the commercial guys, and always has been. It cannot go on this way forever---------the supply IS limited.

We used to fish out of San Felipe in the early 50's, but it got so slow that we moved on down to BOLA, and mostly Animas for our week long fishing vacations. Animas is always wonderful, but it ain't like is was 40 or 50 years ago.

Barry

Skeet/Loreto - 8-9-2009 at 04:54 PM

Barry: Very perfectally said!

That is the way it is but "THE SEA OF CORTEZ IS NOT RUINED'.

Theses Jayhoos and GreenPeckers keep harping that it is Ruined, it is Not!!

I agree a 100% that imes have changed, there are declines, but the fishing is still better than any where else.. yes we may have to further and more opften but we still catch Fish.

We cannot take away the Panga Fishermans livelyhood just for the sake of our Grandhildren, and to use False Premises to do so is the same as Stealing.

We are not Mesicanos, we do not have the Right to Control those people based on our Wishes for our GrandChildren.

We are just going to have to Suck it Up and do the best we can without joining the Green peckers.

Barry> The Las Animas I am refferring to is about 40 miles South of L

reto, a small Rock about 7 miles off of San Jose where most years you can catch all the Yellofin you can Haul..

Have you noticed that no one has addressed the fact that Halibut and Cod are up in Population and reported catchs.

Cycles/

Cypress - 8-9-2009 at 05:36 PM

djh, :bounce:

Agree. It's a waste of time to argue with Skeet/Loreto. He's lost some where between the Green Peckers, Jayhoos and La La Land.

Barry A. - 8-9-2009 at 05:48 PM

OK, Skeet, we are on "the same page", and I thought that probably that is where you are coming from.

The eco-alarmists are always over-stating their case, and thereby lose many of us as they are not to be trusted. (the latest the man-caused "global warming" terror-statements). Having served in the National Park Service & BLM for years I KNOW what damage and mis-information the eco-alarmists can spew out in order to make their extreme claims more believable, and influence Management decisions---------they are amost irrevelant, in my opinion because of this constant over-stating of the actual problems, but they do occasionally influence decisions that are over-reactive, and harmful to many (most??).

I can always catch fish in the SOC, but I have to think about it more now than what I used to---------and in a way that makes it more challenging and exciting.

But stilll, part of me does worry about this, and I wish I had the answers, and knew exactly what was going on.

Viva Baja, and Viva Texas!!! :yes:

I think it is good to be "our age" which helps us to put things in proper perspective-------but the newby's will always hammer away at us, and use personal attacks to try and shut us up (good luck on that) :lol:

Fun, fun!!!!

Barry

baitcast - 8-9-2009 at 06:32 PM

Skeet has forgot more than many of you have learned amigo,s,a bad day on the gulf is normally better than most anywhere I know of and I was fishing the gulf before many of you were born.

Ya its not as good as it once was but it was to good and spoiled many of you who didn,t know how to fish in the first place,now you must know something to be sucessful and thats when many of you lost out.

Cypress you have not spent enough time on the gulf to to pass judgement on someones knowledge fella.

The standing rule is 10% of the guys catch 90% of the fish its a truth was still stands many of you do not qualify as a 10%er thus your opinon means little.

Timing x location x Persentation = Sucess how many of you can put this to work? there are still alot of fish down there but you may have to put your head to work now.
Rob

as DT said if you can,t catch fish in the gulf you better take up another hobby Amen

[Edited on 8-10-2009 by baitcast]

Cypress - 8-9-2009 at 06:51 PM

baitcast, No problem. It's all about presentation? Have spent more time than you can dream of fishing wrecks, reefs, oil rigs and everything else. Have fished commercially, for govt. research, and for fun. I know when a reef/wreck that had mucho fish at one time is devoid of anything. Check the fish finder. The fish are not there. Presentation? :rolleyes:

Skeet/Loreto - 8-10-2009 at 05:45 AM

Yes Cypress"Check the Fish Finder""

The fish may be 200 yds to the right of the Fish Finder.

Watch and study the Water sometimes, not the Fish Finder.
The fish are not always at the same Spot you may have caught them last Year!! They Move Same with Squid, they will beach and die on a different place every time they come in to the Sea.

mtgoat666 - 8-10-2009 at 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by baitcast
The standing rule is 10% of the guys catch 90% of the fish its a truth was still stands many of you do not qualify as a 10%er thus your opinon means little.

that's ridiculous. ability to fish has nothing to do with value of persons' opinion on conservation. skeet and sarah palin are living proof :lol:

woody with a view - 8-10-2009 at 06:05 AM

sarah palin is hot!!!!

flyfishinPam - 8-10-2009 at 06:11 AM

Hey there, I've been busy this weekend so haven't been able to comment on these latest posts.

Would you be interested in the reaction to this film by some of the pangueros in Loreto that I've shown it to? Pure outrage.

The Spanish version of the film is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-t4GRcCA0g&feature=chann...
(part 1, there are two more parts that will show up on the youtube page on the right side)

the Spanish version is actually better detailed as not all of it came out in the English translation.

The DVD of the Spanish version is on its way from Minerva and we will be showing it to a large group of pangueros at our next Pescadores Vigilantes meeting.

Thank you Skeet for defending the "Mesicano" panguero we are definately on the same page but as one who is married to one of these guys and as one who is a friend and neighbor to many of them this situation is extremely angering so you must reset whatever it is in you and try and understand that what you are defending is not based in reality.

What is the name of the panguero you always use and talk about, Alejo Murillo? Believe it or not there are two of these guys with the same name. What boat does he captain?

I ask because I will be happy to conduct a recorded interview with him so that you can hear his words. What specific questions would you like me to ask? Maybe if you hear it from him you will make a turnaround as obviously nothing us gringos say will convince you.

I have to say this film came out at the exact right moment in order to get the troops into action. There are several points included that have everything to do with why things are running the way they are and they are infuriating, one example is the fact that no permits are ever inspected in Guaymas while on the other hand in Loreto pesca is more than happy to check for permits and every detail of our sportfishing pangas. conapesca even wants to microchip ALL of our boats so they know our every movement yet those large commercial vessels that are already chipped fish unmonitored and their movements and illegal actions are ignored. Why must we bend over backwards to conserve the fisheries, stay within limits, save the turtles when longliners from Guaymas can catch unlimited amounts of a fish that they have no permit for and 20% of that illegal catch turns out to be an endangered species protected under Mexican law? The attitude of the guys is why the hell are we saving this resource so these greedy law breaking sob's can have it to do what they want with it?

I do not take lightly your comment about us gringos telling "Mesicanos" what to do. I am Mexicana and I have every right to defend my fellow compadres and to do what I can to conserve the fishery for future generations. When you set down roots, and become a Mexicano Skeet, then you also will have every right to defend whatever it is you are defending here but until then your opinion is simply that and it has no bearing on what actually will go on in practical life down here in Mexico.

flyfishinPam - 8-10-2009 at 06:19 AM

one more thing

I never said that "The Sea of Cortes is Ruined"

but its on its way there and I an doing what I can to prevent that.

mulege marv - 8-10-2009 at 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by baitcast
Skeet has forgot more than many of you have learned amigo,s,a bad day on the gulf is normally better than most anywhere I know of and I was fishing the gulf before many of you were born.

Ya its not as good as it once was but it was to good and spoiled many of you who didn,t know how to fish in the first place,now you must know something to be sucessful and thats when many of you lost out.

Cypress you have not spent enough time on the gulf to to pass judgement on someones knowledge fella.

The standing rule is 10% of the guys catch 90% of the fish its a truth was still stands many of you do not qualify as a 10%er thus your opinon means little.

:lol:

why so many pangueros if only 10% catches fish ? i guess the one boat that has got ONE dorado in the last three weeks must be the 10%, but then again my opion means little so i will just shut up.

[Edited on 8-10-2009 by mulege marv]

Skeet/Loreto - 8-10-2009 at 08:26 AM

Pam: I appreciate your concern.
I base my 38 years of experience living and working with the Mexicano People. Left there in 2001{Just about the time you got there}.

I still keep my contacts, talk on the phone and visit aas I did in April of 98 to Loreto and Mulege.
I have been back several times since thenn, talked to Fisherman and pangeros.

I do not limit my self to a 5 o 6 Hour Fly Fishing trip as a way to Judge the Fishery.

The Fishing was Fantastic and the Commercials found out about and came in with bigger biats. It has been going on for many, many years.

But to give any Credit to a bunch of Green Pecker types who can only Cry and Whine that the Sky is Falling any Credance is beyond Beleif.
Then to have the Audicity to tell the Pangeros at San Nicholas or elsewhere that you are going to take their Livihood away to satisfy a misqguied beleif that you are going to save the fish for your Grand Children is "DUMB".

How is it that you are still getting fushermen to come and Fish with you if the Cortez is ruined.??

baitcast - 8-10-2009 at 08:57 AM

sarah palin is hot!!!! This I can agree with :lol:

Rob

Anyone can catch a fish with a boat but only El Pescador Grandes can get them from the beach.
And for the record I have been smashing the barb over for many years.

[Edited on 8-10-2009 by baitcast]

[Edited on 8-10-2009 by baitcast]

Pages: 1 2