BajaNomad

FM3 Question??? Benefits???

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grace59 - 8-7-2009 at 06:03 PM

We are building a house in San Felipe and have just gotten our FM3s. Should we now carry these with us when we are in Mexico as we do our passports? Are there any benefits to having our FM3s that I should know about? This is all new to us and I really appreciate all the info. that I get from the members of this forum. Thanks Nomads!

bajaguy - 8-7-2009 at 06:29 PM

Grace

I leave the original of my FM-3 and US Passport at the house and carry color copies of the photo pages of each with me when I am running around town.

rpleger - 8-7-2009 at 06:36 PM

I do what BAJAGUY does but I keep only a set in my cars glove box...

squid - 8-7-2009 at 07:04 PM

First of all: As a homeowner you MUST have an FM-3.
If you don't have one and INM gets the message, your house can be confiscated. But also a big fine might do it. Depends on the INM guy dealing your matter.
Some folks (homeowners) think as they are coming down here just for some weeks (less than 180 days), they don't need a FM-3, FMT is good enough. Think twice!
As a homeownre w/ fideocomiso you can apply for an FM-2 right away. That gives you a lot of protection in Mexico.

bajajudy - 8-7-2009 at 07:34 PM

Just remember that an FM2 has restrictions on how many days per year that you can be OUT of Mexico. It is not for people who only come a few months a year.

nbacc - 8-7-2009 at 08:24 PM

We had ours done by Lolita in San Felipe and she keeps the original so we can renew on time if we are not there. We keep a copy with our passports when we are in Mexico. Nancy

fishbuck - 8-7-2009 at 08:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajajudy
Just remember that an FM2 has restrictions on how many days per year that you can be OUT of Mexico. It is not for people who only come a few months a year.


How does the Mex Gov know how many days a year you are in Mex if you have an FM2? How does one establish that they were in Mex for the required amount of days?

grace59 - 8-7-2009 at 08:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbacc
We had ours done by Lolita in San Felipe and she keeps the original so we can renew on time if we are not there. We keep a copy with our passports when we are in Mexico. Nancy

Lolita also did our FM3s, but wasn't there when we picked them up so we got the originals. Should we leave them with her next time we are there? Is it OK to just carry a copy or will we ever be called on to produce the original?

bajalou - 8-7-2009 at 09:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
How does the Mex Gov know how many days a year you are in Mex if you have an FM2? How does one establish that they were in Mex for the required amount of days?


With a FM2, you are required to check out with Immigration when you leave Mexico. With FM3 you don't have to.

In practice, you can leave Baja and reenter without problems unless you fly. Or enter Mexico at a mainland entry. Lorado, Juarez, Caborca, etc.

fishbuck - 8-7-2009 at 09:32 PM

That's what I was thinking. So in essence if you drive in the is no way for the Mex Gov to know.

bajagrouper - 8-7-2009 at 09:46 PM

Squid, I own a beach house with fidecomiso and all I needed was my FMT, passport and small down payment check...
no FM3 no kidding

Quote:
Originally posted by squid
First of all: As a homeowner you MUST have an FM-3.
If you don't have one and INM gets the message, your house can be confiscated. But also a big fine might do it. Depends on the INM guy dealing your matter.
Some folks (homeowners) think as they are coming down here just for some weeks (less than 180 days), they don't need a FM-3, FMT is good enough. Think twice!
As a homeownre w/ fideocomiso you can apply for an FM-2 right away. That gives you a lot of protection in Mexico.

fishbuck - 8-7-2009 at 10:05 PM

None of that stuff is probably valid in court since you are a tourist and not legally permited to own property (Fido) in Mex.
But as long as no one ever challenges you, you'll probably get away with it.

bajagrouper - 8-7-2009 at 11:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
None of that stuff is probably valid in court since you are a tourist and not legally permited to own property (Fido) in Mex.
But as long as no one ever challenges you, you'll probably get away with it.


Hola Fishbuck, Well all I know is my real estate agent who is also an attorney, the bank, the title company and notorio all say I am the legal owner, I do know that a person buying a house in Mexico under a Mexican Corporation does need an FM3...

stanburn - 8-7-2009 at 11:36 PM

bajagrouper,

Think this through real slowly. As a tourist, on a FMT, when you leave the country your visa is no longer valid. As an individual without a valid visa you are not allowed to leave anything behind in the country. You need to remove whatever you brought as a tourist.

Buying a house and having a second home in mexico where you leave some of your belongings is not a tourist activity.

bajagrouper - 8-8-2009 at 01:53 AM

Hola Stan,
enlighten me, where is it written on a Mexican Gov. site that someone on an FMT can not leave personal items in their home... I know I can not leave a vehicle unless I have an FM3...PAZ

Hola Squid,
Are you going to show me a Mexican Gov. site that states I MUST have an FM3 to purchase a home in Mexico...SUERTE

Bajajorge - 8-8-2009 at 08:42 AM

I don't carry anything except my drivers license, money for adult beverage, my swimming pool pass and in my vehicle is proof of insurance.
My US Passport and FM3 are kept in my safe at home.
I don't know of anyone in San Felipe that carries their FM3s or US Passports. Most of course have their adult beverage Pesos readily available.

k-rico - 8-8-2009 at 08:54 AM

When I bought my house in quaint and charming Tijuana in 2006 the Notario and Scotia Bank (administers the Fideicomiso) required an FM-3. I knew about the requirement beforehand because the Mexican attorney I hired to guide me through the process and do the footwork also said I needed one. There are photocopies of it in the Fideicomiso paperwork, I'm looking at it now. The story here is, no FM-3, no Fideicomiso.

squid - 8-8-2009 at 08:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajagrouperSquid, I own a beach house with fidecomiso and all I needed was my FMT, passport and small down payment check...no FM3 no kidding
Quote:
Originally posted by squidFirst of all: As a homeowner you MUST have an FM-3.If you don't have one and INM gets the message, your house can be confiscated. But also a big fine might do it. Depends on the INM guy dealing your matter.Some folks (homeowners) think as they are coming down here just for some weeks (less than 180 days), they don't need a FM-3, FMT is good enough. Think twice!As a homeownre w/ fideocomiso you can apply for an FM-2 right away. That gives you a lot of protection in Mexico.

well, so far so good. Where there is no judge - there is no judgment.Read my post again and learn what I said. You must have a FM-# if you are a homeowner. Getting in and out of Mexico w/ an FMT is one thing. But don't let the INM get any knowledge of your home. They CAN confiscate it. On a regular base they are putting a big fine on you as they are more interested in $$$$$ as in a house.The guy at the border doesn't ask much. But INM is different inside the country.

David K - 8-8-2009 at 09:10 AM

Sure, someone can sell you a house and you can buy it without the proper visa... but, are you willing to lose it all when the officials catch up to you?

A TOURIST (FM-T is a TOURIST CARD) is someone on a vacation, camping or staying in a hotel for a limited time... then goes home (leaves Mexico).

Tourists DON'T buy property that stays in Mexico when they leave they also cannot work any job (even volunteer)... IF they do, they are not tourists anymore... they now have become PART TIME RESIDENTS in Mexico (FM-3).

Those wishing to live FULL TIME or 'most of the time' in Mexico would advance to an FM-2 visa or apply for citizenship.

TBcountry - 8-8-2009 at 09:11 AM

Everything I have heard, read and been told was that a FM3 was needed for a Fediecomiso. There is enough risk buying in Mexico already so why would anyone take more chances. My wife and I just went last week to TJ and signed all the documents with the Notario and I am so glad its done

bajajudy - 8-8-2009 at 09:36 AM

If your FM3 or FM2 allows you to work, you must carry it with you when working. My husband knows this oh too well.

bajagrouper - 8-8-2009 at 09:37 AM

Well experts all you have to do is what I asked in my last post, direct me to a Mexican Gov. website that states I have to have an FM3 to purchase a home in Mexico's coastal areas and I can not leave personal property in a private home while not having an FM3..I know you can not leave a vehicle without an FM3.....So experts and newbies just show me the website...

Nope

Dave - 8-8-2009 at 11:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by squid
First of all: As a homeowner you MUST have an FM-3.


An FM-3 is not a requirement to own a home. It is, however, a requirement to live in it.

I know folks from the States and Europe who own homes with a fideicomiso. No Fm-3, no current visa, no nada.

k-rico - 8-8-2009 at 12:45 PM

I've been looking for a couple of hours, can't find the answer. Some sites say a FM-3 is required, others don't. Couldn't find any pertinent info in English from the Mex. gov.

I believe this may be something of concern. The sites saying a FM-3 is necessary all said it is because of the requirements associated with a foreigner signing a contract in Mex. That led me to the following:

"Acts (such as signing contracts, bids, permits or other public and private documents) performed in Mexico by foreigners not holding the proper visa may be rendered invalid (voidable)."

The Fideicomiso is a contract. Is a tourist visa "the proper visa" for a Fidei?

http://www.rosenlaw.com.mx/services/immigration.html

Maybe someone in San Jose could get the answer from these guys (above).

grace59 - 8-8-2009 at 01:32 PM

The property where we are building our house is in El Dorado Ranch in San Felipe. This is a quote off of their website on owning property (or renting/leasing) in Mexico.

"For those of you who either lease lots, rent houses, or have purchased property through a Fideicomiso Irrevocable, you must have an FM-3 Visa to be legal in Mexico. Once you have signed any sort of contract, you are no longer a tourist. I would like to say at the outset, that if you do not have an FM-3 Visa and you find yourself in a property dispute or other entanglement which puts you in the arms of jurisprudence, you literally have no rights as an "illegal alien". This means your property, bank accounts, vehicles and personal belongings, are in jeopardy. The very minimum you need for owning or leasing property is the FM-3 Visa which is renewable every year for 5 years."
This is why we got our FM3s before signing the contract with our builder.

squid - 8-8-2009 at 01:55 PM

well, too many smart a... here ! They do have a fideicomiso !!!!!!!!!!!!
They got it through a bank - no other way!
BUT nobody can get a bankaccount OR A FIDEICOMISO without FM-3.
Gringos always know everything better about mexico than Mexicans.
No more posts from me on this thread. Period.

grace59 - 8-8-2009 at 02:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by squid
well, too many smart a... here ! They do have a fideicomiso !!!!!!!!!!!!
They got it through a bank - no other way!
BUT nobody can get a bankaccount OR A FIDEICOMISO without FM-3.
Gringos always know everything better about mexico than Mexicans.
No more posts from me on this thread. Period.


:?: I'm confused Squid at the attitude...did I say something in my post to upset you? If so, Mea Culpa. I thought that I was agreeing with the need for an FM3 when purchasing a home in Mexico. :?:

oldlady - 8-8-2009 at 02:16 PM

I'm with bajagrouper on this one. Is there any black letter law on this?
We bought our property and created our fides. with the tourist visas we had when we came down for five days to close the deal. Nada Mas. 5 Years ago.
Had a Mexican lawyer handle everything. He had a good reputation then, in all this time I've not known anyone of the dozens of people who did similar transactions (some still don't have FM-3's ) and used him to have had any issues.

Typical

bajaguy - 8-8-2009 at 02:22 PM

Well, it's typical...rules and no rules.....even if it's printed, it would be interperted differently in Rosarito and Loreto....just gotta do what you think is right for where you are....unfortunately

SteveD - 8-8-2009 at 02:27 PM

What is the problem with just getting an FM-3? It's good for a year, the FM-T is only good for 6 months. The lady at the secretarial office renews it for us (a month in advance) so we just show up, sign some papers and we are done. A lot less hassle than getting an FM-T every 6 months and getting it stamped at Immigration. And we KNOW we are legal in Mexico, instead of relying on all of the "experts" on this board. If you have a house worth $100,000 or more, why take the risk! (our $100K house is now a $300K house!)

bajagrouper - 8-8-2009 at 02:31 PM

Senor Squid,
Can't find a gov. site that proves you correct, I did not think so....Sorry you will not post anymore, no more miss-information from you...Adios

Hola grace59,
As you can see from this paragraph I included from "How to buy Property in Mexico" the bank is signing the contracts on my behalf...By the way I would not believe anything from El Dorado Ranch even if they were giving their land away for free...

"A "fideicomiso" is a trust agreement created for the benefit of a
foreign buyer, executed between a Mexican bank and the seller of
property in the restricted zone. Since foreign buyers do not have the
capacity to enter into a normal real estate sales contract, due to
Constitutional restrictions, the bank acts on their behalf."

TBcountry - 8-8-2009 at 02:54 PM

SteveD I'm with you on this one.

bajaguy - 8-8-2009 at 03:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SteveD
What is the problem with just getting an FM-3? It's good for a year, the FM-T is only good for 6 months. The lady at the secretarial office renews it for us (a month in advance) so we just show up, sign some papers and we are done. A lot less hassle than getting an FM-T every 6 months and getting it stamped at Immigration. And we KNOW we are legal in Mexico, instead of relying on all of the "experts" on this board. If you have a house worth $100,000 or more, why take the risk! (our $100K house is now a $300K house!)






Eggs Actly!!!!!

bajagrouper - 8-8-2009 at 03:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SteveD
What is the problem with just getting an FM-3? It's good for a year, the FM-T is only good for 6 months. The lady at the secretarial office renews it for us (a month in advance) so we just show up, sign some papers and we are done. A lot less hassle than getting an FM-T every 6 months and getting it stamped at Immigration. And we KNOW we are legal in Mexico, instead of relying on all of the "experts" on this board. If you have a house worth $100,000 or more, why take the risk! (our $100K house is now a $300K house!)



Steve, I guess you are directing this question to me... maybe I am frugal, since I am in Mexico for 6 months during the winter months and i did not need to leave a vehicle at my home , and an FMT is $22 and a FM3 is around $140 a year I decided to go with the FMT...My home has tripled in 2 years also but there is no risk, I have a fidecomiso, it's not like I am on ejido land or put the property in someone's name like some of the "experts " on this board who can not backup what they say, as you can see from my profile I have been to Mexico a few times over the years and have gained some knowledge of this country but I am open to learn more, at least I can admit when I am wrong, I do not say I will never post hear again, suerte

Bajaboy - 8-8-2009 at 04:54 PM

This thread has me wondering about another scenario. Does a person that owns a time-share need a FM-3? Aren't they signing a contract in Mexico? Just stirring the pot a bit....

[Edited on 8-8-2009 by Bajaboy]

bajalou - 8-8-2009 at 05:35 PM

Probably the most important answer to this questions is to go to the Immigration office that covers the area you are wondering about and ask the officials there what the rules are. Of course, if you don't have a FM3, you might be opening yourself up for problems. Are those of you who have property without FM3s willing to take that chance? If so I'd really like to know what the local officials tell you.

bajagrouper - 8-8-2009 at 06:58 PM

Bajaboy,
Good point

Bajalou,
I guess a notario who is a real estate attorney appointed by the governor can not be trusted ...you know all applications for fedicomisos are sent to DF for approval, I would think at that time if any the paperwork were incomplete they would kick it back to the notario...David K and others made some claims earlier and all I asked for was proof of what they say...not hearsay!!! They can not produce an official site that states what they are claiming...still waiting

bajalou - 8-8-2009 at 07:41 PM

My only point is that no matter what "Official" sites might say, the local official is the one that applies his version of the law.l

bajalou - 8-8-2009 at 07:50 PM

I've had friends in San Felipe who have been required by the Notario in Mexicali to get FM3s before being allowed to close a SALE of their property.

Bob and Susan - 8-8-2009 at 08:28 PM

bajagrouper...you are fine while you are there with an fmt

but...

as soon as you leave you've abandoned all the property you left and it CAN be taken

you are at risk

bajagrouper - 8-8-2009 at 08:51 PM

Hola Bob and Susan,

One of these days I will visit you guys to check out your solar system,heard a lot about it..

I know I can not leave a vehicle unless I have an FM3, but where is it written I can not leave personal possessions in a private residence, just turn me on to the Mexican Gov. site that states what you say...please


Hola Lou,

I stand by my last post, if the powers to be in DF said it was OK then it's OK by me...maybe some of these guys in San Felipe are "helping foreigners " with FM3 paperwork...for a small or large fee...

bajalou - 8-8-2009 at 08:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajagrouper
Hola Lou,

I stand by my last post, if the powers to be in DF said it was OK then it's OK by me...maybe some of these guys in San Felipe are "helping foreigners " with FM3 paperwork...for a small or large fee...


Not true.

squid - 8-8-2009 at 09:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajagrouper
Senor Squid,
Can't find a gov. site that proves you correct, I did not think so....Sorry you will not post anymore, no more miss-information from you...Adios



O.K., one more time for you in particular as you seem to be a lill 'slow'
and in genaral for all others:
Does anybody believe one can trust a notary public just b/c he is gov. approved??
B/S # 1 Think again.
Does anybody believe one can trust a lawyer just b/c he is a lawyer??
B/S # 2 Think again.
Does anybody belive he got a fideicomiso and in ANY case it is approved in Mexico DF??
B/S # 3 Thinka again.

There are plenty of cases where the fideicomiso money/fee is taken and ended up in the pockets of the banker.
There are plenty of cases where notary's do something without being lawful.
There are plenty of cases where lawyers do something and just get your money for something unlawful.
Governmentsite?????????????????????????????????????????
The same law is different in La Paz than in Tijuana >>>>>> don't you know? And on the mainland there is the exact same law with a complete different interpretion.
So what B/S are you talking about?
Get rid of your "Gringo-Thinking" , amigo , this is Mexico!

So far from God, but so close to America!

bajalou - 8-8-2009 at 09:04 PM

I'm just wondering, can you show me where it says you can leave a vehicle in Mexico - outside the "Frontera" areas - when you have a FM3?

It's not what the Customs people have told me when I've traveled to Mainland Mexico. If I leave it, it has to be in a customs bonded storage, not at a private residence. Unless I have done a full importation and paid the duties and it is now registered in Mexico.

[Edited on 8-9-2009 by bajalou]

bajagrouper - 8-8-2009 at 10:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by squid
Quote:
Originally posted by bajagrouper
Senor Squid,
Can't find a gov. site that proves you correct, I did not think so....Sorry you will not post anymore, no more miss-information from you...Adios



O.K., one more time for you in particular as you seem to be a lill 'slow'
and in genaral for all others:
Does anybody believe one can trust a notary public just b/c he is gov. approved??
B/S # 1 Think again.
Does anybody believe one can trust a lawyer just b/c he is a lawyer??
B/S # 2 Think again.
Does anybody belive he got a fideicomiso and in ANY case it is approved in Mexico DF??
B/S # 3 Thinka again.

There are plenty of cases where the fideicomiso money/fee is taken and ended up in the pockets of the banker.
There are plenty of cases where notary's do something without being lawful.
There are plenty of cases where lawyers do something and just get your money for something unlawful.
Governmentsite?????????????????????????????????????????
The same law is different in La Paz than in Tijuana >>>>>> don't you know? And on the mainland there is the exact same law with a complete different interpretion.
So what B/S are you talking about?
Get rid of your "Gringo-Thinking" , amigo , this is Mexico!

So far from God, but so close to America!





Squidly you lied, you were never going to post again, but since you did all you gotta do is show me an official site where what you say is true...And what makes you think I am a gringo? Your profile seems kinda empty...can't you just except you are wrong, you can't prove what you stated...que lastima

bajagrouper - 8-8-2009 at 11:15 PM

Hola bajalou, Article 106 covers this rule:

www.sre.gob.mx/english/

Lou, I hope squidly does not think I made up this site...hope this amswers your last post question, Rick


The holder of an FM-3 visitor visa, regardless of his or her migratory status, has the right to import a vehicle, in accordance with the provisions of the Mexican customs law.
Article 106, paragraph IV, section a) of the Mexican Customs Law reads that foreigners holding a Non-Immigrant migratory status (student, pensioner, business person, technician, etc.; except refugees and political refugees) will be allowed the temporary import of a single vehicle; in conformity with the precept cited, Article 42 of the General Population Act describes the migratory status of Non-Immigrant Visitor, which can be extended for up to four equal periods of time and allows multiple entries and exits. These extensions will in turn extend the legal stay of the temporarily imported vehicle on national territory, in accordance with Regulation 3.2.6 of the 2004 General Regulations on Foreign Trade Matters [Reglas de Carácter General en Materia de Comercio Exterior] stating that for those whose migratory status has been extended in accordance with the law, the validity of the temporary import permit issued for the corresponding vehicle is automatically prolonged for the same amount of time. The official document that extends the importer's stay in the country also stands as proof of the legal stay of the vehicle.

jannyk - 8-8-2009 at 11:26 PM

This statement by you is just not true.

We have bought and sold 2 properties (one at Club La Costa, SJD and one in Bahia Kino, Sonora), both were fideo'd.

At no point during the buying, applying for the fideo, setting up the trust, bank account to administer them, ownership, sale or payment of any taxes (including final 'sales/profit tax'), was any kind of 'upgraded visa' required.

To be honest, the only identifier ever used, in any of these transactions, were apostilled copies of our passports.

Should it be done? Maybe not, I really don't know, I'm not here to give advice. But to say it cannot be done is just BS - because we've actually done it - twice!

Quote:
Originally posted by squid
well, too many smart a... here ! They do have a fideicomiso !!!!!!!!!!!!
They got it through a bank - no other way!
BUT nobody can get a bankaccount OR A FIDEICOMISO without FM-3.
Gringos always know everything better about mexico than Mexicans.
No more posts from me on this thread. Period.


[Edited on 8-9-2009 by jannyk]

bajagrouper - 8-8-2009 at 11:53 PM

Originally posted by squid
well, too many smart a... here ! They do have a fideicomiso !!!!!!!!!!!!
They got it through a bank - no other way!
BUT nobody can get a bankaccount OR A FIDEICOMISO without FM-3.
Gringos always know everything better about mexico than Mexicans.
No more posts from me on this thread. Period.

Hi squidly, just to let you know last week some banking rules changed, you do not need an FM3 to open an account anymore, as a matter of fact I could walk into my local Citibank in the USA and open a checking or savings account at a Banamex anywhere in Mexico through their Global Services for expats division...how bout that...maybe you could change your nickname to
MISS INFOMATION !!!

monoloco - 8-9-2009 at 08:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by squid
First of all: As a homeowner you MUST have an FM-3.
If you don't have one and INM gets the message, your house can be confiscated. But also a big fine might do it. Depends on the INM guy dealing your matter.
Some folks (homeowners) think as they are coming down here just for some weeks (less than 180 days), they don't need a FM-3, FMT is good enough. Think twice!
As a homeownre w/ fideocomiso you can apply for an FM-2 right away. That gives you a lot of protection in Mexico.


I'd like to know of one instance where INM confiscated someone's house for the lack of an FM3.

David K - 8-9-2009 at 09:02 AM

I sure wonder how you can call a "tourist" (fm-t) also a property owner!

Tourists are people on a vacation... Is it really that hard to understand?

Sure, someone will take your money and sell you something... Does that mean you are LEGAL and protected by Mexican law??? Of course not....

Bajalou, Bob & Susan, BajaRob, ... are just some of the Nomads who are friends of mine who bothered to do the legal and right thing in getting the correct visa and not just hope they don't get caught!

Please try and give GOOD advice here and still have a good time in Mexico!

wessongroup - 8-9-2009 at 09:03 AM

Not sure about the law, as I can not read the Law as it is not in English.
I would only offer this, on any real estate transaction, you as the buyer should conduct as much "due diligence" as possible on the "site"
This is true no matter where the "property" is located... the collapse of the real estate in the United States is a result of the lack of "due diligence" on the lenders and the buyers.
But, back to the subject of this thread, legal documentation the requirements of ownership...
Please follow the link, http://www.mexicomatters.net/mexicorealestate/04a_fideicomis... it at least references the LAW by article and section in Mexico and/or Baja on these issue. I however can not substantiate the translation, but, overall it would appear that the "intent" was to allow American's to come down to the Baja, and buy and live in property.
The obvious benefits to all was the reason it was changed back in 1971... used to go down to La Mision in 1960-69. Not sure but I think the law was again changed in 1991 to allow for 50 year lease on the land, as it used to be 30 years, with automatic renewal...

I not up to speed on the Mexican Law on owing a home, have just started looking at the area once again.

I recall Mexico with found memories and would like to go back down for the last few years and once again enjoy the people and the country

Thanks for all the food for thought... I tend to go with Bajagrouper, for practical reasons, if the Mexican Government started repossessing personal property in the Baja from foreign home owners, what do you think would happen to the market short and long term.http://forums.bajanomad.com/images/smilies/saint.gif

Bajaboy - 8-9-2009 at 09:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I sure wonder how you can call a "tourist" (fm-t) also a property owner!

Tourists are people on a vacation... Is it really that hard to understand?

Sure, someone will take your money and sell you something... Does that mean you are LEGAL and protected by Mexican law??? Of course not....

Bajalou, Bob & Susan, BajaRob, ... are just some of the Nomads who are friends of mine who bothered to do the legal and right thing in getting the correct visa and not just hope they don't get caught!

Please try and give GOOD advice here and still have a good time in Mexico!


DK-not taking sides here but I do know that people own "vacation homes" and thus your logic doesn't quite work. I think I know what you were implying, though.

Zac

larryC - 8-9-2009 at 09:28 AM

My wife and I are just completing the fideo process on some property in BoLA, we are useing Angel Saad Said, notario #4 in Enenada. During the process we were told to come down and sign some papers and that we should be sure to have our visas with us. I asked about an fm3 and was told by Angel that either an fm3 of an fmt would work, we just needed to be in Mex legally to sign the papers, and that included the seller also he had to be in the country legally also. Tomorrow we go to the consulate in San Diego and they want to see our fideo papers before they will issue an fm3.
If it is true that you have to have an fm3 first then it would be like a "catch 22" since the San Diego consulate requires the fideo (or a rental agreement) before they will issue a fm3. Here is a link to their site:
http://consulmexsd.org/doc/non-mexican/fm3.htm
I really have no idea what the actual laws are but this is the process that our attourney lead us through, and after more than a year it seems to be working.
Larry

SDRonni - 8-9-2009 at 09:34 AM

We got our FM-3 at the Mexican Consulate in San Diego. We did not have to have a copy of our fide (as we don't have it yet), but did have to provide a copy of the contract to purchase the property.....

larryC - 8-9-2009 at 09:40 AM

We are going in tomorrow and we don't have the fideo papers in hand yet but we will take some rental papers that we have for another property and see if that works. I am well aware that what they put on their website and what happens in real life are probably worlds apart. I'll post tomorrow afternoon about what happens.
Larry

David K - 8-9-2009 at 09:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I sure wonder how you can call a "tourist" (fm-t) also a property owner!

Tourists are people on a vacation... Is it really that hard to understand?

Sure, someone will take your money and sell you something... Does that mean you are LEGAL and protected by Mexican law??? Of course not....

Bajalou, Bob & Susan, BajaRob, ... are just some of the Nomads who are friends of mine who bothered to do the legal and right thing in getting the correct visa and not just hope they don't get caught!

Please try and give GOOD advice here and still have a good time in Mexico!


DK-not taking sides here but I do know that people own "vacation homes" and thus your logic doesn't quite work. I think I know what you were implying, though.

Zac


Just to be sure... here is the way I see it logically: TOURISTS are people on a vacation... staying a short time in one or more places each trip.

A VACATION HOME is REAL ESTATE property that is in the same place and doesn't travel.

IF you BUY a home in Mexico, then you are holding REAL property that stays in Mexico when you go back home. That means you will be going back to that same home over and over... You then are a PART TIME RESIDENT in Mexico, and not JUST a tourist seeing the country, on a vacation.

I can understand that many Americans have bought property in Baja with or without an FM-T... What I find fascinating is how they will argue the point and they don't worry about losing their investment???

What is an FM-3 for if only a FM-T is okay??? Obviously, there is an FM-3 because an FM-T isn't enough... to buy and keep property in Mexico, to work in Mexico, to stay more than 6 months a year, etc.

bajaguy - 8-9-2009 at 09:47 AM

To get an FM-3, you have to show proof of residence in your name with an address...a phone bill, a water bill, a rent receipt or a contract to purchase......when you get "issued" the FM-3, you then have to "register" it with Immigrationin the Immigration "jurisdiction" where you will be living or have your property.

So, it seems that you can "buy" and sign documents for property on an FM-T which shows that you are in the country legally at that time (as a tourist), but should have an F-3 after you sign those docments and have a "residence" or property in Mexico........

Common sense would indicate that if you have a "residence" or property in Mexico....even though you use it for your 2 week vacation, or 6 month vacation, you are not a "tourist", but a "resident".

bajalou - 8-9-2009 at 10:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajaguy
To get an FM-3, you have to show proof of residence in your name with an address...a phone bill, a water bill, a rent receipt or a contract to purchase......when you get "issued" the FM-3, you then have to "register" it with Immigrationin the Immigration "jurisdiction" where you will be living or have your property.

So, it seems that you can "buy" and sign documents for property on an FM-T which shows that you are in the country legally at that time (as a tourist), but should have an F-3 after you sign those docments and have a "residence" or property in Mexico........

Common sense would indicate that if you have a "residence" or property in Mexico....even though you use it for your 2 week vacation, or 6 month vacation, you are not a "tourist", but a "resident".


An excellent summation of my understanding of the situation.

wessongroup - 8-9-2009 at 10:59 AM

Believe this discussion is about two separate legal issues:

1. Legal status of the foreigner in Mexico (classification by Mexican and/or American Agency's) based on information provided by the foreigner and/or American to an Agency.

2. Legal ability of a foreigner to own property (in this case a area which has been defined in law by the Mexican Government.

You will be a foreigner while you are in Mexico, you can not become a Citizen of Mexico, unless both of your parents were born in Mexico and have not let there citizenship laps before March 20,1998.

You can however own property under the varying classifications of Visa and under current Mexican law.. again, the intent must be considered when making interpretations on legal issues, nothing ever is cut and dried, with law and the enforcement of same.

If one thinks of what, in most cases is the bases of these laws and regulations, then it all starts to make sense..... they need to be able to TAX to make money, both here and in Mexico.

It's just in Mexico, they don't have the same "social network" that we have in the U.S. thus taxes are much lower in the Baja, for now.

One thing you can count on, when money gets short.... governments start looking, but I don't have the same degree of concern over property issues in Mexico as I would in the United States.. the Federal Government lost a case in MT. A property own run a census taker off his property with a shotgun, as the census taker was on his front porch with a GPS noting his exact position within the United States...

Don't think it's even close to this down in the Baja... at least I hope not.

Coming down in Sept. and can hardly wait...

All this other stuff goes away when down there

Oggie - 8-9-2009 at 11:24 AM

Which visa applys to renting property in Baja. I can see where an FM-3 would be more convienient than an FM-T. It is valid for a year so you would not have to stop and purchase the FM-T everytime you cross into Baja. Does the leaving of personal property, in mexico, require obtaining an FM-3 ?:?::?::?:

[Edited on 8-9-2009 by Oggie]

[Edited on 8-9-2009 by Oggie]

bajaguy - 8-9-2009 at 11:36 AM

If you are renting a place, go their repeatedly and leave anything (property) there, you are no longer a "tourist". Apply for an FM-3..........see the posts above

[Edited on 8-9-2009 by bajaguy]

squid - 8-9-2009 at 11:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajagrouper
Originally posted by squid
well, too many smart a... here ! They do have a fideicomiso !!!!!!!!!!!!
They got it through a bank - no other way!
BUT nobody can get a bankaccount OR A FIDEICOMISO without FM-3.
Gringos always know everything better about mexico than Mexicans.
No more posts from me on this thread. Period.

Hi squidly, just to let you know last week some banking rules changed, you do not need an FM3 to open an account anymore, as a matter of fact I could walk into my local Citibank in the USA and open a checking or savings account at a Banamex anywhere in Mexico through their Global Services for expats division...how bout that...maybe you could change your nickname to
MISS INFOMATION !!!


Hey fishhead (grouper) you are just not smart enough to catch the point.
I stated that without FM-3 you cannot open a bank account in Baja. I DID NOT REFER TO CITYBANK INSIDE THE US AND THEIR GLOBAL SERVICES AND POSSIBLE RECENT CHANGES !!!
Who can read has a clear advantage , old fark.
And those hwo understand the point are better of than any dummy.
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

grace59 - 8-9-2009 at 11:56 AM

I'm beginning to see that things are different depending on where you apply for the FM3. I've seen some people who stated that they needed the marriage certificate, we were told that to apply at the consulate here in Seattle we would need a police background check and several other things. We finally decided that since we would have to register our FM3s with immigration in San Felipe that we would just apply for them there....in order to get the FM3 we first needed to get a bank account in a Mexican bank. It wasn't difficult to get our FM3 so I'm glad that we have it and have the knowledge that we are legal to reside there in the house that we are building. Thanks for all the conversation here.

squid - 8-9-2009 at 12:08 PM

some guys here are just talking BS as they bought a property in Padre Kino or elsewhere.
Padre Kino is just a couple of years ago taken into the 50Km zone.
On the mainlamd - not inside the 50 KM zone - you can certainly own any property free and clear w/o fido.
We are talkin Baja!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And Baja is inside the 50Km zone all over the place
Any MX bank is selling you a fido > if you need one or not < you just need to be stupid enough to pay for it.

And again for those who still are not catching the piont: Any law is interpreted differently in La Paz or in Tijuana or any place inbetween.

To all those smartasses here: What are you doing with a written law you are showing to an official to get something done ( no matter in which institution or case) and the official is telling you: "No that is different. You misunderstood the meaning of our Mexican law?" He just does not want to go your route!
Yea, what are you doing ... Sm.. A..?

squid - 8-9-2009 at 12:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by grace59
I'm beginning to see that things are different depending on where you apply for the FM3. I've seen some people who stated that they needed the marriage certificate, we were told that to apply at the consulate here in Seattle we would need a police background check and several other things. We finally decided that since we would have to register our FM3s with immigration in San Felipe that we would just apply for them there....in order to get the FM3 we first needed to get a bank account in a Mexican bank. It wasn't difficult to get our FM3 so I'm glad that we have it and have the knowledge that we are legal to reside there in the house that we are building. Thanks for all the conversation here.


Hi grace 59..... you are on the right track by stating the fact: Things (laws) are different in any place in Mexico (and even more inside the US at the embassys). It just depends on the guy (official) you are talking to and - of course - his mood at that very moment.
Come to any Mexican official and show him the law which you got from the web, and tell him what he has to do according to the law and your oppinion >>> You are done!
You made the point!:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

bajaguy - 8-9-2009 at 12:45 PM

Grace...as you have found out, nothing is what it seems....kind of like Alice in Wonderland.

Best advice......talk to people where you are and do what they did right, and don't do what they did wrong.

I can give you the advice for getting the FM-3 at the Mexican Consulate in San Diego, and regestering in Ensenada, but it will be different in San Felipe.........

Also look into getting a local "agent' to do your registration and renewals...........they have the system "greased"

jannyk - 8-9-2009 at 12:51 PM

Padre Kino??? Where's that??

I said Bahia Kino, and unless they've moved the Mar de Cortez recently, it sits where it always sat - Beachfront - thus Fideo reguired!!

The other property we owned and sold was in San Jose Del Cabo - which, when I last checked, is in BAJA!

Quote:
Originally posted by squid
some guys here are just talking BS as they bought a property in Padre Kino or elsewhere.
Padre Kino is just a couple of years ago taken into the 50Km zone.
On the mainlamd - not inside the 50 KM zone - you can certainly own any property free and clear w/o fido.
We are talkin Baja!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And Baja is inside the 50Km zone all over the place
Any MX bank is selling you a fido > if you need one or not < you just need to be stupid enough to pay for it.

And again for those who still are not catching the piont: Any law is interpreted differently in La Paz or in Tijuana or any place inbetween.

To all those smartasses here: What are you doing with a written law you are showing to an official to get something done ( no matter in which institution or case) and the official is telling you: "No that is different. You misunderstood the meaning of our Mexican law?" He just does not want to go your route!
Yea, what are you doing ... Sm.. A..?

jannyk - 8-9-2009 at 01:06 PM

Logical Dave, and I wish it were true, because we'd be living in Canada if it was?

We are US residents and own property in British Columbia. We used to own an apartment in Paris. My sister owns a condo In Florida (she's lives at home in the UK).

In none of these situations did we become anything but tourists and are issued the same tourist entry 'stamps' as everyone else. Being property owners and even mortgage holders in a foreign country did not change our 'status' one bit in those countries.

I wish Canada did have an FM equivalent, as currently we can only be at our home there for a max of 6 months out of any 12.

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I sure wonder how you can call a "tourist" (fm-t) also a property owner!

Tourists are people on a vacation... Is it really that hard to understand?

Santiago - 8-9-2009 at 01:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajaguy
To get an FM-3, you have to show proof of residence in your name with an address...a phone bill, a water bill, a rent receipt or a contract to purchase......when you get "issued" the FM-3, you then have to "register" it with Immigrationin the Immigration "jurisdiction" where you will be living or have your property.

So, it seems that you can "buy" and sign documents for property on an FM-T which shows that you are in the country legally at that time (as a tourist), but should have an F-3 after you sign those docments and have a "residence" or property in Mexico........


This was my experience exactly. I could not get the FM-3 without first having signed a lease; it was a requirement from the Sacramento Mexican Consulate. While I had the sense of mind to keep my mouth shut, I did think at the time: "I wonder what the grace period is?" YMMV

By the way - when I got my renewel this year for my FM-3, my US passport came back with a 4"X3" plastic colored stamp from Imigracion that is a copy of my FM-3 booklet; photo and everthing. It seems to me I only need to have the US Passport now. Anyone else have this?

Why risk an asset of $200,000USD or so to save $100 annually? The way I look at it, Imigracion is not gonna give me any grief because I have an FM-3 but they might if I don't. Whether or not Grouper is legally correct, it seems to me to be penny-wise/pound foolish.

edit four speling mistakes

[Edited on 8-9-2009 by Santiago]

bajaguy - 8-9-2009 at 02:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Santiago

By the way - when I got my renewel this year for my FM-3, my US passport came back with a 4"X3" plastic colored stamp from Imigracion that is a copy of my FM-3 booklet; photo and everthing. It seems to me I only need to have the US Passport now. Anyone else have this?







Santiao:....we have the colored "stamp"....it is the Visa. ours was placed in our passports by the Mexican Consulate when the FM-3 was issued.

Still have to carry the green booklet as it has your renewals and address in it

squid - 8-9-2009 at 02:58 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by jannyk
Padre Kino??? Where's that??

I said Bahia Kino, and unless they've moved the Mar de Cortez recently, it sits where it always sat - Beachfront - thus Fideo reguired!!

The other property we owned and sold was in San Jose Del Cabo - which, when I last checked, is in BAJA!




Now you are stepping into the direction I wanted you to go, by confirming what I said from the beginning.
Thanks for it. But you are still not catching the basics.

O.K., for you slow thinkers:
You went into your bank
You applied for a fido
You paid for a fido
You got your fido
without an FM-3 or 2

So far so good.

But does that say anything else than : The banker sold you a fido?

Did you ask the INM if you are doing correct?
I bet not. Because otherwise you would shut up here completely as the INM at least would or could have fined you some big $$$$$$ converted to MXP or confiscating your property as you are not alowed to own a property in the 50Km zone without FM-3 just on a tourist Visa. Period.
Read David K's post and others and learn

But again, you are confirming what I said from the beginning: The law is different (has a different interpretation) in La Paz than in TJ or Los Cabos or Kino.

But this is not even so much about the law.
You got something and you paid for it. Period.
The banker doesn't / didn't care if that is lawful. That is up to you to know.
(But you don't. Otherwise you wouldn't post such BS here)

The banker did, what you were asking for. Nothing les nothing more.
You can't blame him as it is not his responsibility to proof.

But you still have this "Gringo-Thinking" : We did it (got a fido without FM-3), so it must be right. As it was done by a banker and we went away with it, it must be correct.

By lucky and shut up - means: don't tell.

Bajahowodd - 8-9-2009 at 03:14 PM

It is awfully hot and humid this time of year in Mulege.

DENNIS - 8-9-2009 at 03:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
It is awfully hot and humid this time of year in Mulege.



Yeah...it sure is. Makes some people cranky.

susanna - 8-9-2009 at 03:47 PM

Too many regulations, has anyone thought about how Mexicans come to the US and they buy property, also run businesses with out being here legally. Why do we make it so easy for them. They drive our freeways with out license and insurance. But yet they require all the FM T and FM 3 what ever for us to go into
Mexico and spend our $. I've had it and I don't trust them.

DENNIS - 8-9-2009 at 03:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by susanna
Too many regulations, has anyone thought about how Mexicans come to the US and they buy property, also run businesses with out being here legally. Why do we make it so easy for them. They drive our freeways with out license and insurance. But yet they require all the FM T and FM 3 what ever for us to go into
Mexico and spend our $. I've had it and I don't trust them.



It's not for everybody...that's for sure. I do agree about excessive regulation. I'm sure the reasons for control are valid but, it seems to turn predatory in many cases.

Geography 101

David K - 8-9-2009 at 09:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jannyk
Logical Dave, and I wish it were true, because we'd be living in Canada if it was?

We are US residents and own property in British Columbia. We used to own an apartment in Paris. My sister owns a condo In Florida (she's lives at home in the UK).

In none of these situations did we become anything but tourists and are issued the same tourist entry 'stamps' as everyone else. Being property owners and even mortgage holders in a foreign country did not change our 'status' one bit in those countries.

I wish Canada did have an FM equivalent, as currently we can only be at our home there for a max of 6 months out of any 12.

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I sure wonder how you can call a "tourist" (fm-t) also a property owner!

Tourists are people on a vacation... Is it really that hard to understand?


===========================================

M-E-X-I-C-O is NOT in control of British Columbia, Paris, Florida or the U.K. :light:;):yes:

A MEXICAN LAW is what determins your legal rights to keep property in MEXICO. :light:;):yes:

I have to tell you that I know this from my friends who have property in Mexico... who have done the research. I just added my dos centavos because it is so SIMPLE... Yet, it becomes so confusing here (to some). :?::o:O

Sure, you are in Mexico legally with an FM-T (on a vacation)... and decide to BUY or LEASE... which you can do, because people in Mexico WILL take your money and sell you/ lease you some land or a condo or whatever they want to. :yes::wow::rolleyes:

ONCE you HAVE that REAL property you SHOULD be responsible enough to OBTAIN the NEW and CORRECT visa for a property owner/ renter in Mexico and that is NOT a TOURIST CARD my friend. :yes:;):cool:

stanburn - 8-10-2009 at 12:23 AM

It is time for this thread to die and for everyone to quit feeding the squid. If you want squid, then you go to the area between Santa Rosalia and Isla San Marcos, not to Mulegé!

bajagrouper - 8-10-2009 at 01:35 AM

Hola DavidK, Maybe this FMT / FM3 debate is mute, I remember sitting in the notarios office and asked how long the paper work took, he said it had to be sent to Mexico City to be registered with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and would be about a month...So i was looking through my papers and came across this paragraph..



Registration at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs

"With any type of real estate acquisition, foreigners always need to register the ownership at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The rights to ownership are granted when the foreigner agrees to comply with Mexican law and to waive their rights to foreign government intervention. By doing so, the foreigner is considered as a Mexican National with the corresponding rights. In the case of acquisition of property in the Restricted Zone, it is the bank that requests the acquisition of the property at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs."

wessongroup - 8-10-2009 at 04:21 AM

This link is from the Consular Section of the Embassy of Mexico in Washington D. C. and would appear to cut to the end of the chase on many issues discussed:

http://portal.sre.gob.mx/consulados/popups/articleswindow.ph...

"Purchase of real estate
Purchase of real estate in Mexico by non-mexicans

Article 27 of the Mexican Constitution bars foreigners from buying real estate in what is called the “restricted zone” (sixty one miles from the international border and thirty one miles from the seacoast). Outside this area, aliens can purchase real estate property but must agree before the Mexican Foreign Affairs Secretariat to be treated, for all intents and purposes, as Mexican nationals and abstain from invoking the protection of their country of origin with respect to that property. If the covenant is breached, all rights to such property will revert to Mexico .

For the purchase of land in Mexico , the following must be met:

- An application must be filed with the Mexican Foreign Affairs Secretariat (Secretaría de Relaciones Exteriores, Dirección General de Asuntos Jurídicos, Tlatelolco, D. F.) or any of its offices in the Mexican territory. The appropriate personnel will provide the official form {S1} and will help the applicant answer any questions on technical matters.

- Prove the applicant's immigration status (FM3 o FM2 ).

- File the application and attach to it a description of surface, measurements, landmarks and adjacencies of the land.

- Pay the corresponding duties.

I f the buyer is a company, it must prove it is legally incorporated.

grace59 - 8-10-2009 at 06:50 AM

Thank-you, Thank-you, Thank-you Wessongroup for finding something in writing to help satisfy this debate. My original question in this post was not IF I needed an FM3, but if I needed to carry it with me when in Mexico and what, if any, additional benifits come with having the FM3. I am building a house so I have already applied for and received my FM3 (I did this in Mexico and found it easier than at the Consulate here...I used a broker who helped translate everything.) Anyway, thank you to everyone here for the great debate. I enjoyed the posts and learned a few things.

Discount

bajaguy - 8-10-2009 at 07:06 AM

Well, when you turn 60, you can use your FM-3 to get your (Mexican) government issued senior citizens discount card

grace59 - 8-10-2009 at 07:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajaguy
Well, when you turn 60, you can use your FM-3 to get your (Mexican) government issued senior citizens discount card

Thanks Bajaguy! While I still have a way to go, my husband qualifies so I'll get him on that. BUT...new question...How do you get the senior citizens card????

INSEN Card

bajaguy - 8-10-2009 at 08:22 AM

The new name for the INSEN Card is INAPAM (Institute Nacional Para las Personas Adultas Mayores).

You will have to find the nearest office of INSEN/INAPAM and ask about the application procedure. I don't know if they have an office in San Felipe. May have to go to Mexicali.

The INSEN card is a Mexican identification card for anyone over 60 years old and it entitles the person to discounts on many common purchases.

The requirements that I had to follow were:

1. At least 60 years old
2. Original and a copy of birth certificate
........I did not use or need a birth certificate
3. Proof of identification with a photo. I used my FM-3.
4. Name and phone number is a person who can be reached in an emergency.
5. Proof of residency in Mexico. I used my homeowners association receipt.

The requirements don't mention an FM-3, but that is what I used.

You may need to supply a color photo, again, check with your local office.

They will issue you a card with your photo while you wait. Everything happens the same day.

The clerk who issued my card in Ensenada spoke english. She suggested I make several color copies of the card and have it laminated.

Apparently a few of the benefits are:

National Benefits:
1. 50% discount bus travel. Only two discounts given per bus, so I advise getting tickets the day before. Once when I tried to buy tickets for that day, someone else had already used the discount.
2. Aviacsa airline 25% discount
3. Continental and Mexican airlines 10%
4. Museums free
5. VIPs, Sanborns restaurant 15%
6. many hotels, pharmacies, labs, doctors also are listed by city along with their discounts.

I always use it when I am at the checkout stand when I am shopping or buying things. Some businesses accept it, others do not.

Here is a link that may prove useful:

http://www.experience-san-miguel-de-allende.com/inapam.html

[Edited on 8-10-2009 by bajaguy]

David K - 8-10-2009 at 08:28 AM

Wonderful! Thank you 'wessongroup' and welcome to Baja Nomad!

grace59 - 8-10-2009 at 08:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajaguy
The new name for the INSEN Card is INAPAM (Institute Nacional Para las Personas Adultas Mayores).

You will have to find the nearest office of INSEN/INAPAM and ask about the application procedure. I don't know if they have an office in San Felipe. May have to go to Mexicali.

The INSEN card is a Mexican identification card for anyone over 60 years old and it entitles the person to discounts on many common purchases.

The requirements that I had to follow were:

1. At least 60 years old
2. Original and a copy of birth certificate
........I did not use or need a birth certificate
3. Proof of identification with a photo. I used my FM-3.
4. Name and phone number is a person who can be reached in an emergency.
5. Proof of residency in Mexico. I used my homeowners association receipt.

The requirements don't mention an FM-3, but that is what I used.

You may need to supply a color photo, again, check with your local office.

They will issue you a card with your photo while you wait. Everything happens the same day.

The clerk who issued my card in Ensenada spoke english. She suggested I make several color copies of the card and have it laminated.

Apparently a few of the benefits are:

National Benefits:
1. 50% discount bus travel. Only two discounts given per bus, so I advise getting tickets the day before. Once when I tried to buy tickets for that day, someone else had already used the discount.
2. Aviacsa airline 25% discount
3. Continental and Mexican airlines 10%
4. Museums free
5. VIPs, Sanborns restaurant 15%
6. many hotels, pharmacies, labs, doctors also are listed by city along with their discounts.

I always use it when I am at the checkout stand when I am shopping or buying things. Some businesses accept it, others do not.

Here is a link that may prove useful:

http://www.experience-san-miguel-de-allende.com/inapam.html

[Edited on 8-10-2009 by bajaguy]


Thank you for the info. I copied it to an email and sent it to myself so I can have it on hand next time we go to Mexico. You have been very helpful. I appreciate that!

Thank you wessongroup

bajagrouper - 8-10-2009 at 09:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
This link is from the Consular Section of the Embassy of Mexico in Washington D. C. and would appear to cut to the end of the chase on many issues discussed:

http://portal.sre.gob.mx/consulados/popups/articleswindow.ph...

"Purchase of real estate
Purchase of real estate in Mexico by non-mexicans

Article 27 of the Mexican Constitution bars foreigners from buying real estate in what is called the “restricted zone” (sixty one miles from the international border and thirty one miles from the seacoast). Outside this area, aliens can purchase real estate property but must agree before the Mexican Foreign Affairs Secretariat to be treated, for all intents and purposes, as Mexican nationals and abstain from invoking the protection of their country of origin with respect to that property. If the covenant is breached, all rights to such property will revert to Mexico .

For the purchase of land in Mexico , the following must be met:

- An application must be filed with the Mexican Foreign Affairs Secretariat (Secretaría de Relaciones Exteriores, Dirección General de Asuntos Jurídicos, Tlatelolco, D. F.) or any of its offices in the Mexican territory. The appropriate personnel will provide the official form {S1} and will help the applicant answer any questions on technical matters.

- Prove the applicant's immigration status (FM3 o FM2 ).

- File the application and attach to it a description of surface, measurements, landmarks and adjacencies of the land.

- Pay the corresponding duties.

I f the buyer is a company, it must prove it is legally incorporated.





Thanks for pointing out to the Platinum Nomad and his little squid buddy the errors of their ways...Here is a government site that states in black and white that you need an FM2/FM3 only to purchase land, and it says nothing about visas when buying real estate ( vacation home) ...My apologies to the nomads who agreed with me and were attached by these jerks...Paz para todos

squid - 8-10-2009 at 09:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by jannyk
Logical Dave, and I wish it were true, because we'd be living in Canada if it was?

We are US residents and own property in British Columbia. We used to own an apartment in Paris. My sister owns a condo In Florida (she's lives at home in the UK).

In none of these situations did we become anything but tourists and are issued the same tourist entry 'stamps' as everyone else. Being property owners and even mortgage holders in a foreign country did not change our 'status' one bit in those countries.

I wish Canada did have an FM equivalent, as currently we can only be at our home there for a max of 6 months out of any 12.

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I sure wonder how you can call a "tourist" (fm-t) also a property owner!

Tourists are people on a vacation... Is it really that hard to understand?


===========================================

M-E-X-I-C-O is NOT in control of British Columbia, Paris, Florida or the U.K. :light:;):yes:

A MEXICAN LAW is what determins your legal rights to keep property in MEXICO. :light:;):yes:

I have to tell you that I know this from my friends who have property in Mexico... who have done the research. I just added my dos centavos because it is so SIMPLE... Yet, it becomes so confusing here (to some). :?::o:O

Sure, you are in Mexico legally with an FM-T (on a vacation)... and decide to BUY or LEASE... which you can do, because people in Mexico WILL take your money and sell you/ lease you some land or a condo or whatever they want to. :yes::wow::rolleyes:

ONCE you HAVE that REAL property you SHOULD be responsible enough to OBTAIN the NEW and CORRECT visa for a property owner/ renter in Mexico and that is NOT a TOURIST CARD my friend. :yes:;):cool:



Exactly what I said from the beginning.
Just too bad that there are so many Nomads who are not capable to understand. And then using the 'under the beltline' zone for their low standard response. :spingrin::spingrin::spingrin::spingrin::spingrin:

David K - 8-10-2009 at 10:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajagrouper




Thanks for pointing out to the Platinum Nomad and his little squid buddy the errors of their ways...Here is a government site that states in black and white that you need an FM2/FM3 only to purchase land, and it says nothing about visas when buying real estate ( vacation home) ...My apologies to the nomads who agreed with me and were attached by these jerks...Paz para todos


???

FM2/FM3 is a type of 'visa', and I support the responsible action of foreignors obtaining that 'visa' if they rent or buy in Mexico. 'jerks'? 'attached'? Really? Do you say that to everyone who AGREES with you?:lol:

squid - 8-10-2009 at 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajagrouper

Thanks for pointing out to the Platinum Nomad and his little squid buddy the errors of their ways...Here is a government site that states in black and white that you need an FM2/FM3 only to purchase land, and it says nothing about visas when buying real estate ( vacation home) ...My apologies to the nomads who agreed with me and were attached by these jerks...Paz para todos


WOW, here comes fishhead again and wants to tell us that a "Vacation Home" is something different than a regular home.
Fishhead, I have to stay w/ this thread as you are a master in mixing up facts. (Or too dumn to understand > make your pick)

AS A TOURIST YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO OWN ANYTHING IN MEXICO! Why don't you get it?
You can not even buy a Car w/ MX plates. (Well you can buy it, every dealer is happy to take your money, but you are not allowed to use OR TO OWN it) You are not allowed to own anything which is Mexican! Why don't you get the point? Is it so difficult for you to comprehend facts?

Read page 1 , 4 post: I never said any different.
But I agree, it is hard for fishheads to catch the point.

And the FMT is why you have to leave the country within 180 days.
O.K., you tell me how you build a home wiithout bying the land. Even if the land is on a lease, you own the house. Consequently you are a homeowner.
Consequently you cab sell YOUR house, but not the land.
Now comes another issue into play: If you buy a Condo, what are you then??? A homeowner? I bet if you ask the INM that will count as homeownership. But I'm not sure about that!
Please fishhead, read s l o w l y.
This is maybe a very difficult issue for you.
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::fire::fire:

DENNIS - 8-10-2009 at 10:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by squid

Even if the land is on a lease, you own the house.



Not really. You attach that house to leased land and it becomes the property of the landowner. Try to dismantle it in a dispute and see where it gets you.

SteveD - 8-10-2009 at 11:11 AM

When we had our house built in 1991 we got a Fidiecomiso for it and the land. No one said anything about needing an FM-3 or FM-T, including the Notorio we were using. They are specialized attorneys, appointed by the courts, to handle property transaction.

A few years later we started reading about Americans in Cabo who were kicked out of the country and their property taken because they did not have an FM-3 and as such were illegaly in the country. That's when we decided to get our FM-3's. I checked at the Mexican Consulate in LA and in San Diego and at Immagration in TJ and Rosarito. They all had different requirements. The consulates in the states were even somewhat rude, indicating that they did not want to deal with it. The immigration in Rosarito was the most helpful and with a secratarial office a block away to do the paperwork it was very easy. The fact that you have to renew your FM-3 where your house is made it even better (we didn't know that at that time). The fact that the niece of the owner of the secratarial office worked in the immigration office also helped!

The bottom line is that we are in a foreign country and need to every thing by the book to comply with their laws and not take any short-cuts both out of respect for their country and that we have large assets (our homes) to protect.

wessongroup - 8-10-2009 at 12:00 PM

One small issue, property should not be confused in this discussion with "land".

"Land" is corner stone of the whole Fidiecomiso process.

You can't own "land" in the "Restricted Zone", you can "lease land" in a "Federal Zone" and build structures upon the leased land, can can bring items down from the States to put into those structures, with conditions attached. But, you still will not "own the land" that your "property" sits on...

I believe someone was relating the story about those Americans that were down by Cabo. Some of the individual were certainly down there without proper visa's, as it has been very common over the past 50 plus years, that the Mexican's really didn't make an issue over it. I don't remember how many times we just drove on by the check point south of Ensenada on our way down to Johson's Ranch to do some claming. However the primary issue was "ejidos" land. On this typed of "Land" they can lease it to you, but you don't have any rights for renewal, or changes in the lease which the "land owner" can change at any time.

Thanks so much for all the input and different views on a complex subject

Hope that through the development of some factual information it benefit all.

Something that protects everyone, and lets the Mexican people make a couple of bucks off of some very happy campers while in their beautiful Country.

One should just take a moment and consider whether they are comfortable with that kind of legal situation, before they move on a "house" down in the Baja..

Most people have had very few problems with "real estate" down on the Baja, sooooo relax it will all be OK

jannyk - 8-10-2009 at 12:03 PM

There is only one brief sentence that applys to most of us in this info. It is the first one:
"Article 27 of the Mexican Constitution bars foreigners from buying real estate in what is called the “restricted zone” (sixty one miles from the international border and thirty one miles from the seacoast)."

The rest of the info, including the reference to FM3/FM2, only applies to property bought outside the 'Restricted Zone' and begins:
"Outside this area, aliens can purchase real estate property but ...."

When you buy inside the 'zone' with a fideo, the title is in the name of the Bank holding the Trust and remains so. It is not ever in the name of the foreign purchaser because, as it states, the law "...bars foreigners from buying real estate in what is called the “restricted zone...”. Technically, you still do not 'own' the property as we understand 'own' - you have a 50 year (renewable) lease with all rights of a property owner.

When you buy outside the 'zone', you are directly purchasing 'real estate' - the title is in the buyers name, and this is when an FM2/FM3 is mandatory.

This I already knew and never disagreed with.

As I said earlier, I am not trying to give advice on whether or not to get an upgraded visa. In Mexico CYA is always a good strategy. What I was saying is that over the past 15 years we have bought, enjoyed and sold two properties in the 'zone'. Not once was a visa (any visa) requested or even mentioned.

In fact, we will be applying for an FM3 this year for the first time, not for property issues though.

So does anyone have the link to the Mexican Law that states only an FM3/FM2 holder can be a trustee?


Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
This link is from the Consular Section of the Embassy of Mexico in Washington D. C. and would appear to cut to the end of the chase on many issues discussed:

http://portal.sre.gob.mx/consulados/popups/articleswindow.ph...

"Purchase of real estate
Purchase of real estate in Mexico by non-mexicans

Article 27 of the Mexican Constitution bars foreigners from buying real estate in what is called the “restricted zone” (sixty one miles from the international border and thirty one miles from the seacoast).

Outside this area, aliens can purchase real estate property but must agree before the Mexican Foreign Affairs Secretariat to be treated, for all intents and purposes, as Mexican nationals and abstain from invoking the protection of their country of origin with respect to that property. If the covenant is breached, all rights to such property will revert to Mexico .

For the purchase of land in Mexico , the following must be met:

- An application must be filed with the Mexican Foreign Affairs Secretariat (Secretaría de Relaciones Exteriores, Dirección General de Asuntos Jurídicos, Tlatelolco, D. F.) or any of its offices in the Mexican territory. The appropriate personnel will provide the official form {S1} and will help the applicant answer any questions on technical matters.

- Prove the applicant's immigration status (FM3 o FM2 ).

- File the application and attach to it a description of surface, measurements, landmarks and adjacencies of the land.

- Pay the corresponding duties.

I f the buyer is a company, it must prove it is legally incorporated.

squid - 8-10-2009 at 12:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SteveD
When we had our house built in 1991 we got a Fidiecomiso for it and the land. No one said anything about needing an FM-3 or FM-T, including the Notorio we were using. They are specialized attorneys, appointed by the courts, to handle property transaction.

A few years later we started reading about Americans in Cabo who were kicked out of the country and their property taken because they did not have an FM-3 and as such were illegaly in the country. That's when we decided to get our FM-3's. I checked at the Mexican Consulate in LA and in San Diego and at Immagration in TJ and Rosarito. They all had different requirements. The consulates in the states were even somewhat rude, indicating that they did not want to deal with it. The immigration in Rosarito was the most helpful and with a secratarial office a block away to do the paperwork it was very easy. The fact that you have to renew your FM-3 where your house is made it even better (we didn't know that at that time). The fact that the niece of the owner of the secratarial office worked in the immigration office also helped!

The bottom line is that we are in a foreign country and need to every thing by the book to comply with their laws and not take any short-cuts both out of respect for their country and that we have large assets (our homes) to protect.


SteveD: YOU MADE THE POINT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nothing to add > just for lowbrainers to read V E R Y S L O W L Y AGAIN AND AGAIN AND OVER AGAIN.
I said nothing different all the time but some low brainers just don't want to catch the point.

k-rico - 8-10-2009 at 12:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jannyk
Technically, you still do not 'own' the property as we understand 'own' - you have a 50 year (renewable) lease with all rights of a property owner.


Jeez, we're getting there, there are many considerations and alot have been discussed.

I'll quibble a bit with the quoted statement. I don't think there are any "lease" aspects to a Fidei. It's a trust - a third party holding property for the benefit of the beneficiary. Mexican law has a maxiumum period of ten years on any real estate lease. Any contract for longer is invalid.

k-rico - 8-10-2009 at 12:27 PM

Maybe my Notario required a FM-3 because he wanted to make sure I had the income to qualify for one, he didn't want a bum living down the street from him.

HA! Little did he know.

FM 3,2,1 benefit

Mulegena - 8-10-2009 at 01:24 PM

exerpt from a post on today's Baja Western Onion:

"Re: Baja Ferry - Temp Sticker - If going to Topolobampo from La Paz it is true you will need the windshield sticker." However, if you have a FM-3 or 2 the sticker will never expire as longer as you keep your "FM" current. Just keep a copy of the current year's "FM" in your glove compartment. This is what we were told by the officials when we bought our sticker..."

wessongroup - 8-10-2009 at 01:26 PM

The Trustee would be the Bank, they are on title of the "land" you are the beneficiary.

Further on trusts...

http://www.mondaq.com/article.asp?articleid=82762

squid - 8-10-2009 at 08:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by squid

Even if the land is on a lease, you own the house.



Not really. You attach that house to leased land and it becomes the property of the landowner. Try to dismantle it in a dispute and see where it gets you.


Dennis, that very much depends on your contract with the landlord. Here in Mulege all so called 'Parks' like the orchard, Oasis or Miranda and Serenidad do have contracts where the improvement to the land (i.e. a house) goes into the ownership of the guy who pays for it.
It is of course another issue if the 10 years lease*) is not renewed. Like in the Orchard, I got knowledge, that the landlord (R.S.) did not renew a contract to get the home.
*) there is no valid 10 years contract in Mexico. Every (!) contract is only valid if it is signed for 9 years and 364 days (not 365)

Trustee

wessongroup - 8-14-2009 at 07:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jannyk
There is only one brief sentence that applys to most of us in this info. It is the first one:
"Article 27 of the Mexican Constitution bars foreigners from buying real estate in what is called the “restricted zone” (sixty one miles from the international border and thirty one miles from the seacoast)."

The rest of the info, including the reference to FM3/FM2, only applies to property bought outside the 'Restricted Zone' and begins:
"Outside this area, aliens can purchase real estate property but ...."

When you buy inside the 'zone' with a fideo, the title is in the name of the Bank holding the Trust and remains so. It is not ever in the name of the foreign purchaser because, as it states, the law "...bars foreigners from buying real estate in what is called the “restricted zone...”. Technically, you still do not 'own' the property as we understand 'own' - you have a 50 year (renewable) lease with all rights of a property owner.

When you buy outside the 'zone', you are directly purchasing 'real estate' - the title is in the buyers name, and this is when an FM2/FM3 is mandatory.

This I already knew and never disagreed with.

As I said earlier, I am not trying to give advice on whether or not to get an upgraded visa. In Mexico CYA is always a good strategy. What I was saying is that over the past 15 years we have bought, enjoyed and sold two properties in the 'zone'. Not once was a visa (any visa) requested or even mentioned.

In fact, we will be applying for an FM3 this year for the first time, not for property issues though.

So does anyone have the link to the Mexican Law that states only an FM3/FM2 holder can be a trustee?




Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup


This link is from the Consular Section of the Embassy of Mexico in Washington D. C. and would appear to cut to the end of the chase on many issues discussed:

http://portal.sre.gob.mx/consulados/popups/articleswindow.ph...

"Purchase of real estate
Purchase of real estate in Mexico by non-mexicans

Article 27 of the Mexican Constitution bars foreigners from buying real estate in what is called the “restricted zone” (sixty one miles from the international border and thirty one miles from the seacoast).

Outside this area, aliens can purchase real estate property but must agree before the Mexican Foreign Affairs Secretariat to be treated, for all intents and purposes, as Mexican nationals and abstain from invoking the protection of their country of origin with respect to that property. If the covenant is breached, all rights to such property will revert to Mexico .

For the purchase of land in Mexico , the following must be met:

- An application must be filed with the Mexican Foreign Affairs Secretariat (Secretaría de Relaciones Exteriores, Dirección General de Asuntos Jurídicos, Tlatelolco, D. F.) or any of its offices in the Mexican territory. The appropriate personnel will provide the official form {S1} and will help the applicant answer any questions on technical matters.

- Prove the applicant's immigration status (FM3 o FM2 ).

- File the application and attach to it a description of surface, measurements, landmarks and adjacencies of the land.

- Pay the corresponding duties.

I f the buyer is a company, it must prove it is legally incorporated.



As to your question about "So does anyone have the link to the Mexican Law that states only an FM3/FM2 holder can be a trustee?"

If the purchase of land and/or property takes place in the "restricted zone" the "trustee" would be the Bank, if one was purchasing land and/or property outside the "restricted zone" a Trustee would not be required by law, however I expect one could establish a Trust in Mexico, as it is a legally excepted financial service pretty much worldwide. It's just another "financial service" offered by Banks, I'm checking into it this time with Citibank/Banamex their offices are in Century City here in Los Angeles. I spoke over the phone with them, asked what I need to do to set up a checking account with them, "Come in the door". I saw that they also have a Trust Division. Trust Departments are completely separate from normal retail and commercial banking.

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