I'm looking for advice on small outboards. The only place I fish is Sea if Cortez. We have a 14-foot 65 mil Gregor tin boat. I'm looking to replace
the nearly new 25 horse 2-stroke outboard, or ???. I called several boat stores and am confused about their advice. My 25 horse 2-stroke weighed
about 100-120 lbs. But the dealers are telling me that I can't buy a similar new engine as 2-cycle's are no longer allowed in California. So, even
though I won't be using it in California, I still can't buy it in California.
The sellers are telling me that 4-stroke engines are the thing now, but they weigh quite a bit more. I'm thinking that the 25 horse 4-stroke might be
too heavy for my 14-foot tin boat. I'd have no problem with either but need advice from someone who knows more than I do and I need to buy and accept
delivery in So. Cal before 7/3 this year.
Any ideas or suggestions?
_____________________
UPDATE:
What I was told today after visiting 4-5 boating stores in Ventura is:
1. New 2-stroke outboards cannot be purchased or imported into California
2. Used 2-stroke motors can be legally purchased in California.
3. Used 4-stroke are few and almost possible to find. They are so new that no one is ready to replace them yet.
4. 4-strokes weigh 15 - 20% more than 2-strokes.
5. 3-strokes cost a little more.
6. Since I will only be using it in Baja, why not buy it there?
7. In many villages in Baja more locals use and repair more 4-stroke motors that 2-strokes.
8. Mildly variable fuel quality (like those occasionally found in Baja) is not more harmful to one engine than the other.
9. 4-strokes are generally considered cleaner for what seems like sensible reasons.
10. The 4-strokes come "out of the hole" faster because they deal better with low end RPM.
11. There is some new technology in 2-stroke manufacturer that may shake some/all of the California objection to their previous polution.
Of the motors we looked at today the Honda 20 HP 4-stroke seems like a reasonable fit for my needs (offered @ $2600.00). Also Nissan makes an 18 horse
4-stroke (offered @$2250.00), but that might be a little less power than I need. We were shown Yamaha 4-cycle engines also: a 15 horse (@ $2525.00 and
a 25-horse (@ $3000.00). The search continues. Thanks for the great info and I'll keep you posted.
[Edited on 6-27-2004 by Mike Humfreville]elgatoloco - 6-25-2004 at 11:34 PM
So, your buddies WERE telling the truth??
EGL,
Mike Humfreville - 6-26-2004 at 12:42 AM
Well, my bud's do like to set me up and I honestly wasn't sure until tonight when Kevin, our 25 year old, decided to get a bunch of pals/gals and go
down over the 4th and I had to call my buddies and get the truth out of them. So the final word is that the motor's a done deal.
On a note re the story of the motor, it might be difficult to wrap up the responsibilities of who owes what with respect to the outboard. But the
difficulty turns out to be trying to keep the other guy from doing too much for you rather than too little. That's what friends are for. Baja: sea
or shore, we're here for each other. She's taught us that lesson of values.
Hang in there and write on.
Mikedono - 6-26-2004 at 06:25 AM
Mike why don't you buy a new outboard in Mexico, i think they still sell new 2 strokes down here.
outboard
lewm - 6-26-2004 at 07:15 AM
I used a 25 horse Susuki for years on my inflatable. Great power. It was getting to heavy as I got older. Now use a 15 horse. Still gets around
pretty good.Socalz - 6-26-2004 at 07:22 AM
Not only are the 4 strokes 20% heavier than a comparable 2 stroke, they're also more expensive. Since time is a factor, a drive to Arizona may be in
order or pick one up in Mexico as suggested earlier.sin nombre - 6-26-2004 at 07:34 AM
25hp is enough for that size boat, but you probably know how the weather can churn up in a hurry. 14' is rather short for those waves down there,
just don't venture out too far from shore with it.
Also, for all the cost of buying a motor, trailering the boat down there, then paying $3.00 per gallon for gas.... sometimes its cheaper, easier and
more fruitful to go out on a panga with a guide. You step on the boat in the morning, and step off when you come home. No washing, flushing
securing, anchoring, etc.
Just another perspective.
Don Jorge - 6-26-2004 at 07:56 AM
Mike,
The difference in weight for a 25 hp two stroke vs. four stroke is going to be around 35 pounds. The efficiency, reliability, odor free and super
quiet operation of a four stroke far outweigh the few pounds in weight savings. Therefore, IMHO, a four stroke is the logical choice. Yamaha or
Honda, period.
Enjoy!
Buy the 4-Stroke
LaTijereta - 6-26-2004 at 08:08 AM
Mike,
You can get a great deal in Ensenada on the 4 strokes (yamaha).. No import fees and sales tax from the dealer there
Kristian
Buy a 2-stroke
JZ - 6-26-2004 at 10:19 AM
Get a 40hp Tohatsu for the same weight as a 25hp 4-stroke. Tohatsu makes good engines.
Check e-bay, sometimes there is some interesting stuff up there.
[Edited on 6-26-2004 by JZ]
Not if you care
jrbaja - 6-26-2004 at 10:22 AM
about protecting the Sea of Cortez. 4 stroke is cleaner!
Oh Man Mike!
Debra - 6-26-2004 at 10:34 AM
I was hopeing they were just yanking your chain (I know how good Barsom is at that)
Too bad about the motor, but, seems that it just wanted to stay down there (from past experience) you weren't even there this time and still lost
another rig! David K - 6-26-2004 at 11:23 AM
Listen, Mike (poor old Mike?) needs to keep the weight down!!... Here he is barely able to carry two 'little' yellowtails up the beach at Gecko last
July!
Watch out for the heavy seas!
JZ - 6-26-2004 at 02:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by sin nombre
14' is rather short for those waves down there, just don't venture out too far from shore with it.
Well, they don't get them to rival those of Cape Horn, but that was actually the nickname we gave one of our local points at one time! When the
conditions are such that the current runs against the wind, especially around points and out of wind protected areas, it gets quite nasty. A 14' boat
fits nice and snug in between the swells and makes for a interesting ride... The goal is generally to bridge the two waves, and not get trapped in
between every set. We had a 22' panga and this was was just barely long enough.
Hade enough close calls in bad weather on seemingly beautiful, harmless days.
Tres Virgenes
JZ - 6-26-2004 at 03:16 PM
The cape 25 miles North of Santa Rosalia. There is an under-water ridge that runs out to Tortuga.
The worst I've been in. It went from perfectly flat to 6-8', with a 3 second period. And I've put 200 hours on the Pacific in the last 20 months.
Your right, when the tide conflicts with the wind that's the problem. It's why so many inlets in Florida are so nasty. Bedman - 6-26-2004 at 07:11 PM
Mike, I've done a bit of home work on the outboard motor "cha cha". I dont have time to look this second but will find the info for you later on
tonight. In a nutshell I've decided to buy a 9.9 4 stroke. It has the same power as a 15hp, 2 stroke and only weighs 88 pounds. Is quiet and clean
and can be used anywhere. You also might want to contact JJ (Fishhunter) he has a 25 HP Suzuki I traded him and he thinks its WAYYyy too much motor
for his 14' Valco and is looking to sell or trade for a smaller one. (and if I ever needed someone to take care of an outboard HE would be "Da Man".
He's a stickler for performance and service on his equipment.
Steve
Steve
Any interest in a 4-stroke 15hp Yamaha
JZ - 6-26-2004 at 07:48 PM
I bought it and decided it was too heavy for my 11' zodiac.
Less than 1 hour on it and the warranty hasn't been filed.
Electric start. I just want to dump it at this point, so I'm willing to give you deal of the century. If I remember correctly I think you are in
Ventura, about 10 miles from me. honda tom - 6-26-2004 at 09:27 PM
hello mike, I met you once at gonzaga, i was on my honda heading south, and gave a tube to your friend el comote............... anyway... in 1980 my
dad bought a 9.9 4-stroke honda for his 14' valco. We used it on and off for several years and it always started first or second pull. once it set for
2 years.... it took three pulls! I cleaned the carb and took it to loreto as a kicker motor for a trip to la paz. It took a 24' cabin boat the last 10
miles into la paz at trolling speed. He recently purchased a 15 hp mercury, and i inheirited the honda, 24 years old and its still a first pull
starter, (its also quiet). The honda 9.9 would not plane the valco, the 15 does plane the boat. The main reason the merc was purchased was to be a
kicker on a 24' cabin (aluminum). Per the honda website, the honda 15 weighs 101lbs. If I were you i would talk to the guy with the suzuki 15hp for
sale another great motor...... or go buy the honda... imho unless your boat is a center consel or a highbow 25 hp seems like too much. good luck.
Honda Tom
Mike Humfreville - 6-26-2004 at 10:34 PM
I remember the moment with you guys doing desert riding and giving El Camote what I remember as) 2 tubes, one old and one new. That far into the
outback how could we forget.
I'm a little woried that the 15 wouldn't get us on plane. My Gregor is the heavier model (~66 mil aluminum vs. 44 mil for the lighter version) and I
think the minimum HP should be in the 20 range.
Hope all is well with you. It's been a while since you posted. Camote has a new young'n by the way.4baja - 6-27-2004 at 06:29 AM
if your not going to be pulling the moter off and on then go with the heavyer 4 stroke moter and you wont regret it. just remember mike you cant drop
the moter in the water or continualy sink the boat at the shore and expect it to run good i'll look up mike when i get there.
MIKE--YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT TRACK
Barry A. - 6-27-2004 at 09:35 AM
Mike----Despite what I have been venting about on Fred's "Baja Travelers Board" on this subject (2-strokes versus 4-strokes), and despite that I
disagree with some of the points that your "dealers" are making, I believe that you are headed in the right direction in your logic. The 20hp Honda
4-stroke will probably do you just fine---it is heavy, but you can always get somebody to help you put it on the boat, and take it off, and Honda's do
run like a dream. I did not realize before that your Gregor was the heavier model---15 hp just would not do it, your right. My only complaints with
4-strokes are 3: they are NOT as powerful out-of-the-hole (a minor inconvience), the extra weight, and they cost more. Everything else is positive
for 4-strokes. Like I said, you are on the right track. I will be envious of your final boat package, I am sure. Have fun!! Barry
PS ------Oh, and by the way, apparently Evinrude I-tec 2-strokes only come in 40hp, and above, so I retract my rantings and ravings about Evinrude
since the arguement is moot now. Those motors are just too big for you. (-:
PPS A safety chain between the boat and the outboard is always a good idea----I attach mine to the motor with a stainless steel carabiner. The
chain is always permanently attached to the transom. Fang - 6-27-2004 at 09:44 AM
Mike,
Pick up a good used 15Hp 2 stroke. Because of the restrictions in the States, they are getting cheaper every day. Eric & I pushed our 14' Lund all
over the Sea of Cortez with a similar set-up for many years. A 15 horse will do the job with no problem and give better fule economy.
It's statements like these
jrbaja - 6-27-2004 at 09:51 AM
and then listening to the whining about the condition of the Sea of Cortez, that makes me truly wonder about certain mentalities! Especially busy
body, tree hugging gringos!!
"They caught over 100 dorado one day and went back out the next morning and doubled the count. Mike and a buddy caught in excess of 40 dorado one
day."
Pick up a good used 15Hp 2 stroke. Because of the restrictions in the States, they are getting cheaper every day.
What are those restrictions and why do they have them ?
Oh JR...
JZ - 6-27-2004 at 10:04 AM
You wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between a little 15hp 2-stroke and 4-stroke. You can find bigger fish to fry!
Except there are now
jrbaja - 6-27-2004 at 10:38 AM
so many of these little outboards putting all over the sea of Cortez that there isn't enough Lemon Joy in the world to cover up all the fuel trails.
I think that every little bit helps towards the protection of this Sea.
Especially when some have made it their personal concern to rant and rave about a foreign countries environment and accuse the citizens of that
country of being the ones that are ruining it.
And, by the way, I have a 30 hp oil injected Suzuki that has been in those waters a bunch so I'm not exactly innocent.
But if I were to umm say, lose it to the depths, I would most certainly replace it with something a little more environment friendly.
Outboards, waverunners, etc. all contribute to the pollution of the environment.
They have been banned in many places in the states. For a good reason. They pollute. A lot!
It's truly a bummer for those that have these toys but it's really a bummer for the Sea of Cortez where most people go to use these toys now.
Anyways, not trying to cause a ruckus, just thought it might be something to consider.
Rio Mulege 1984
MIKE'S BOAT IS TOO HEAVY FOR A 15 HP
Barry A. - 6-27-2004 at 12:08 PM
Fang----a light weight alum. 14 footer with two people, or especially with only one person, and a 15 hp 2-stroke, will really haul, your right. But
Mike has the heavy weight Gregor boat, and he likes people, so I think he will be happier with the 20 hp, or even the 25. Just my thoughts. My
light weight 14 foot Gregor with a 15 hp 2-stroke was really over taxed when I put 4 folks in the boat. It was great when I was by myself. Also, a
14 foot Gregor can handle almost anything the Sea of Cortez can throw at it if great care and skill is used. I have had some hair-raising experiences
over the years with huge winds and waves, but always came out just fine. Running with the waves was always the most scary----you have to match your
speed to that of the waves very carefully, or they will swamp you from the rear. Lots of fun!!! Barry
I agree, 15hp is not enough
JZ - 6-27-2004 at 02:39 PM
As much as I'd like to "give" you my slightly used 15hp, it is too small for your boat.
You should find out what the max hp rating is for your boat and go with that. I wouldn't think you'd be taking the engine on and off, so I wouldn't
worry about the weight (a 15hp 4-stroke can't really be single handled any way; trust me I know that all to well!).
You never heard someone say, gee I wish I would have gone with the lower hp engine, but the opposite sure is true.
The last situation you want to find yourself in is being about 10 miles out, having 4 on board, spotting a Chubasco, and not being able to get it up
on plane! fishuntr - 6-27-2004 at 03:29 PM
Hi Mike; it took something like this to lure me out of "lurk mode" which is my usual M.O. nowadays. Like Bedman said, I have a 25hp Suzuki stroke
that I use on my little 12' Valco. Waaay too much engine, but kind of a rush to drive. Ever see a 12 footer do a wheelie?
I'm no expert, but I think the power to weight ratio of a two stroke is much higher than for the four. I would suggest another two stroke, both for
the price difference and for the weight. No more than we use these little buggers they will never wear out if we take care of them.
I am somewhat casually looking for a 15 hp for my boat, but it's no big deal. A 15 would be perfect for my little cartopper, easier to lug around as
well.
It's too bad that some folks just have to criticize, no matter what. That's the reason I no longer post much.
Hope to see you in Baja
fishunter
Mike Humfreville - 6-27-2004 at 03:53 PM
This guy is better then he used to be so I just roll with him. Hope all is well with you and that we see you soon. The main reason I'm thin king
4-stroke is simple less polution and that's a hard issue to argue with. I did like my OLD 15 2-stroke too. But with the level of maintenance I give
my equipment, life spans are short.Desertbull - 6-27-2004 at 04:13 PM
I have a 3-year old Nissan 2-stroke 25hp long shaft that has barely been used..it's sitting in the garage covered up. $1000 bucks and it's yours...my
wifey bought it for me 3 years ago for $2650 and it has 11 hours on it total.
email me at desertbull@off-road.com if interested.
Hasta..
That's right Mikey and company
jrbaja - 6-27-2004 at 04:17 PM
bringing up some very valid pollution issues would certainly be considered anti-american in my books! Thats why you can't see in most of the water up
there.Santiago - 6-27-2004 at 05:58 PM
Hot diggity dog! I haven't seen a thread like this for about 18 months - and wouldn't you know - it took an outboard question! Reminded me of my
dad's ploy to meet new folks - he would pull into an unfamiliar trailer park, have a cooler of beers nearby, pop open the hood of the truck and lean
in. Before long, every good man in the park would stop by to get a free beer and offer their 2 cents to whatever problem my dad would make up. My 2
cts: 4 stroke, 25HP, Honda/Yamaha and bolt the mother on. Keep in mind you'll probably have an electric start - even more weight with the battery.
At your advanced age I doubt you could even pull-start one now, let alone in a couple of years.
"and bolt the mother on."
jrbaja - 6-27-2004 at 06:06 PM
Santiago
Mike Humfreville - 6-27-2004 at 06:55 PM
Good point with the electric start...Are 4-strokes harder to pull start? Most everyone says they start on 1st or 2nd pull. I'm leaning toward the
Honda 20 4-stroke with manual start.
Thanks to all for the advice.Don Jorge - 6-27-2004 at 09:49 PM
Mike,
The boat previous to my new boat had a 200 hp Honda 4 stroke main and a 15 hp Honda kicker, both 4 stroke. Both were electric start. The 200 had a
rope to start it in emergency situations although I never tried to do so. After all, that motor was basically an Accord motor on a boat and it never
missed a beat. The 15 was setup to start either or and was quite easy to start either or. Both motors worked silently, cleanly and once you have owned
a four stroke you would wonder what took so long to get this technology to market? For your 25 hp four stroke Honda I would recommend an electric
start knowing you had the option to pull start if necessary. We ain't getting any younger.
JR: Whats up with the some guy named Mike who once caught a bunch of dorado and since this is a Mike who asked a simple question seeking some simple
opinions this guy named Mike is accussed of contibuting to the destuction of the Sea of Cortez fishery in this thread?
Calmate. No vale le pena. Todos somos amigos! Paz carnal!
Jorge
It started here
jrbaja - 6-27-2004 at 11:01 PM
Not if you care
about protecting the Sea of Cortez. 4 stroke is cleaner!
JR
Mike Humfreville - 6-28-2004 at 12:36 AM
If you had paid attention to the thread that was where it was leading - 4-stroke. Please see my thread on the off topic forum to you and let us leave
the "outside talk" for there. Thanks.
Anyways, not trying to cause a ruckus, just thought it might be something to consider.
jrbaja - 6-28-2004 at 06:34 AM
Does anyone not understand that ?David A. - 6-28-2004 at 09:18 AM
Mike,
Our Westerner is 14.8 feet and has the 20 inch transum, center console, floor boards, and 15hp (4 stroke) Honda manual start. It takes our coolers
(full), fishing gear, Yvonne and I all over the Bay at around 20 mph full throttle. With three people it will go onto plane but it is allot slower.
I think the 20hp 4 stroke will do you just right. By the way, my motor does start on the first pull 99.9% of the time.
JR
Barry A. - 6-28-2004 at 09:24 AM
Jr----I don't believe it is necessarily "what" you are saying, it is the WAY you say it that gets folks upset-----you are so caustic and
demeaning------Mike is right, the whole thread was leading towards 4-strokes which is what you are advocating, I think, so what is the problem?
Barry
The problem WAS !
jrbaja - 6-28-2004 at 09:47 AM
"This guy is better then he used to be so I just roll with him."
And me taking it out of proportion.
Mike and I had some serious issues a while back which didn't make either one of us look to good so I am a little touchy about certain comments.
I apologize for anything personal said that didn't apply to outboard motors.
I don't apologize for stating my feelings on preserving the Sea of Cortez.
Obviously, this is a major concern for Mike and I hope the rest are paying attention as well.
Good luck on the outboard.Pescador - 6-28-2004 at 01:45 PM
Mike, this is as bad as trying to decide whose truck is the best. The real issue is that a 4 stroke gets better mileage than a two stroke. They are
a little slower at initial acceleration but are much quiter and will always run at slow speeds for a longer period of time without fouling plugs or
misfiring. They are slightly heavier than their two stroke counterparts but after having used both motors for years I would never even consider using
another two stroke motor. I have been pushing these aluminum boats over the sea of cortez since a small youngster and you are absolutely correct in
your assumption that the heavier Gregor needs a minimum of 20 HP. I prefer a 25 for the Gregor but either will perform adequately. That boat
overloads easily with too many people on board and I seriously think over two is starting to get a little heavy, especially where you fish at BOLA.
But you have been going down there a long time and probably have a good feel for the water and weather. I like the electric start option because
sooner or later you may want to add a depthfinder and it is much easier to hook them up if you can put some current back into the battery when
underway. At a very minumum, if you do not opt for the elec. start, at least make sure that you have an alternator that you can hook to a battery. A
fishfinder is worth it's weight in gold.
Another hint with either the Honda or Yamaha, is to change your impeller in the water pump at least every two years and they will never fail you.
If you want some really good prices on either of these outboards, try www.edsmarinesuperstore.com
Thank you to all
Mike Humfreville - 6-28-2004 at 10:26 PM
This has been a long thread and has involved much more than just what engine to buy with reasons why and I learned a lot )hope others did too) and I
want to sincerely thank all who contributed to our collective knowledge.
We are, after all, nomads.Mike Humfreville - 6-30-2004 at 12:33 PM
Thanks to all for your suggestions and comments. I just ordered a Honda 20 HP 4-stroke for $2495 from a dealer in Ventura. So now we're on to the
trial and error stage.
Yeeeeee haaaaa!! Your going to love it. Congrats to you.
Barry A. - 6-30-2004 at 04:37 PM
Don't forget the safety chain. Markitos - 6-30-2004 at 05:35 PM
Should'a bought a sailing sabot. Just kidden, although they go a perfect trolling speed !!David K - 6-30-2004 at 09:38 PM
Dave, are you and Yvonne going to be there (next door to explosion central)?David A. - 7-1-2004 at 05:09 AM
Yes we will be there. We are leaving Friday after noon and driving to Cielito Lindo for the night. We should be ontime for the second happy hour.
We should be at our place around noon Saturday. See you there.honda tom - 7-5-2004 at 08:31 PM
great choice! You will never have to buy 1 again. Hope to see your new rig at gonzaga sometime soon.
i'll look up mike when i get there.
