BajaNomad - Not Being On Time Is High Art In Mexico

Not Being On Time Is High Art In Mexico

CaboRon - 9-13-2009 at 05:28 AM

I found this to be an enjoyable commentary ....

Not being on time a high art in Mexico
Punctuality isn't dear to many Mexicans. 'It's not personal,' one commentator says, speaking of the phenomenon of perpetual lateness. She herself came late to an interview -- in her own living room.

Reporting from Mexico City - We attacked the start of first grade with military precision. Up at 6:15, with pretty purple dress at the ready. Pancake served, teeth brushed, sandals cinched -- with time to spare. We were a Swiss watch.

But this isn't Switzerland. The school bus didn't arrive at 7:20, as scheduled. Or at 7:30. Or 7:45. The van finally pulled up at 7:54. But the driver gave no sign anything was wrong. She was all grins and big waves, as pleased as if she'd nailed an especially difficult dismount.

The punctual suffer in Mexico City, where lateness often seems as natural as gravity. Host a kids' birthday party and expect guests two or three hours late. Get to the wedding 45 minutes after the time on the invitation and you're right on the money. I've waited an hour and a half for a scheduled interview with a top Mexico City official, only to find out he wasn't going to make it at all.

So much tardiness, so little time. There are many reasons. The city is enormous, with 20 million people colliding like atoms trying to get to the other side. Traffic is a monster. And, like just about everywhere else, 21st century life is full of time-eating distractions.

But the main reason for the chronic lateness has to do with Mexico, which as a rule couldn't give two centavosabout U.S.-style time expectations.

Mexicans have many traits to admire -- their enterprise, their ability to make do, to endure and to enjoy life. Punctuality, though, is nowhere on the list for most of them. The Aztecs may have cared enough about time to carve their famous stone calendar, but you wonder sometimes if people here are still relying on it to get through the day.

"It's not personal. They're always late with everybody: with the judge, with the priest, with their wedding, with their mother, with their father," said Guadalupe Loaeza, an author and columnist (who arrived late for an interview in her own living room). "It's something we cannot help."

Loaeza and others offer theories to explain tardiness in Mexico: a certain lack of responsibility, exaggerated focus on the present, generous social tolerance and plain habit.

But there is something else. Time in Mexico doesn't work the same way it does in the U.S., which, you'll recall, was founded by parsons and scolds who equated being on time with being good. (Time is money!)

"Here, the concept of time is very flexible," Loaeza said.

Translation: It's OK to tell someone you'll be there in a few minutes when you know there's no way this cab is getting through that traffic in under half an hour. (But you don't have to make that call until you're at least 15 minutes late, seeing as the other person is probably running late too.)

The stretchiness is embedded in words whose job is to fudge, create wriggle room, dampen expectations.

Take ahorita, a diminutive of the word for "now." Ahorita can mean "right now." But it's frequently used to mean five minutes from now, 15 minutes from now, half an hour from now -- anything but now now. Al ratito is another diminutive (see how it works?) that means "in a little while," but don't start checking your watch.

Appointments and numerical time estimates can be as squishy. You may be asked to show up for an office appointment at "9 to 9:30," rather than on the dot. A "five-minute" delay often means 15, a half-hour is starting to sound like bad news, and an hour pretty much means you're safe to cue up "Doctor Zhivago."

But there are plenty of people in Mexico who are sticklers for punctuality. Monterrey, the business center in northern Mexico, is known to mind its clock. In Ciudad Juarez, people manage to keep appointments despite the runaway violence.

"Mexicans know when they should be punctual and which things start punctually," said Victor Gordoa, a prominent image consultant who advises clients to be on time. "For example, the bullfight is one of the few events in Mexico that starts exactly at 4 in the afternoon, and that's the tradition."

And the more Mexico folds itself into the global economy through NAFTA and other trade ties, the more it acts like the clock-obsessed people beyond its borders. In the business world, the two-hour-plus lunch is giving way to a hurried bite.

"You can't say, 'I'll call you at 5,' and then call at 7," said Jorge Smeke, director of business studies at Iberoamerican University here. "You're beginning to see changes."

So you never know. Just when you've figured out how late you can be in Mexico, the other person is on time. An expatriate friend played it too cool the other day and missed half of a school meeting that started on schedule.

There's a happy flip side to this elasticity about time. It's easy to see your dentist on short notice, even if someone with an appointment ends up waiting. And no one is likely to give you a hard time when Mexico City traffic takes you hostage.

One adapts. The other day, I scheduled a phone interview for the same time I was supposed to meet someone else -- a scheduling stunt I would never have tried in the States.

But like so many things here, it worked out fine. One of the people was late by 20 minutes. The other -- well, let's just say a Russian war epic could have come in handy.

David K - 9-13-2009 at 09:39 AM

That is a good article Ron... We always hear it refered to as 'Mexican Time'.

SDRonni - 9-13-2009 at 09:47 AM

I have learned that manana (don't know how to do the tilde) doesn't mean "tomorrow," it only means "not today." I have to admit that the tardiness is a bitter pill for me to swallow. But I'd better get darned used to it now that we're getting ready to take possession of our second home there or I'll drive myself bonkers...

grace59 - 9-13-2009 at 09:54 AM

This has been a difficult thing for us in building our home. Our contractor is always late for meetings...he'll call to say he will be "20" minutes late and than be at least 20 minutes later than that. I try to tell my husband to be calm....we like Mexico for the slower pace of life and always remember....
"Manana is the busiest day of the week".

Packoderm - 9-13-2009 at 09:54 AM

You're not supposed to be late for a chartered fishing trip. Here in the states, I've observed that Mexicans are very rarely late for work.

David K - 9-13-2009 at 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SDRonni
I have learned that manana (don't know how to do the tilde) ...

hold down the Alt key and at the same time push the numbers 164 on the right side number pad of your key board for ñ and push 165 for Ñ.

Bajaboy - 9-13-2009 at 10:06 AM

I don't find this the case in Asuncion. The crew that works on our house is even early for jobs.

shari - 9-13-2009 at 10:34 AM

The Mexican Time thing is so intriguing...and very tricky to figure out for sure. One needs years to learn the nuances and which functions DO start on time...like the school meeting referred to....and just when you think you have it figured out and you show up an hour after the stated time for a function...you miss half of it! Just dont expect people to be on time...simple.

The point in the article that is important is that things just dont go as they should and there are so many factors involved with "time"...like other people being late...late bus, late babysitter, water didnt come on to finisht the laundry so you could wear that nice blouse you wanted to, distant cousin arrives just as you are out the door and you cant be rude...you have to chat and feed them first...a thousand unforseen things can interfere with the "schedule".

Being patient, understanding and accepting IS criticle to enjoying life here...and pretty soon you find yourself not rushing around to get somewhere at the appointed time...dont worry if you are a bit late...they will understand.

bajaboy...that is why I LOVE those guys...always punctual and work hard...the name of their crew is Manos Frios....cold hands...named such because they never stand around with their hands in their pockets...meaning they work hard..jejejjejejeje

gnukid - 9-13-2009 at 10:57 AM

We have a "Manos Frios" crew in my neighborhood too, that's what we say when we greet each other in the morning, usually before 8am, for my street 'mano frio' means 'holding a cold beer!'

shari - 9-13-2009 at 11:15 AM

bien dicho gnu...as you know here in mexico....everything has double meanings!!! :lol:

Bajahowodd - 9-13-2009 at 12:07 PM

Much of the original article dealt with lack of punctuality in Mexico City, where the author is based. Mexico City is doubtless the most European City in Mexico. Anyone who has spent much time in Meditteranean Europe would recognize a similar phenomenon.

Not many clocks or watches in Baja Sur

Osprey - 9-13-2009 at 12:37 PM

Quizás

Yesterday the beach was a war zone. Well, maybe a miniature war zone. Squadrons of dragonflies, wave after wave of tiny helicopters, strafed the beach. The mission: find and eat every small bug on the beach. A million sorties following some unseen leader with orders to move west but stay between the shore and the palms.

While I was pretending to be an heroic war correspondent risking my neck to give the world the real-time sights and sounds of the action along the beachhead, two Mexican fishing boats roared through the surf, up onto the beach. Pepe and his brothers said their hellos. Pepe said the sigarones, the dragonflies, signaled rain. When I asked him when we could expect the rain he answered with his grinning-pirate look, it said it pleased him to be vague.

His brother, Juan, said they come out after a rain. Juan has the look and demeanor of a Mexican Archie Bunker. Who should I believe? If we throw out the niggardly constraints of time, they are both right.

This is how I spend my time in Mexico -- having to choose between two (or more) answers to every question. The land may be mostly implacable granite and prickly cactus but it is pure quicksand for anyone looking for a hard-and-fast answer to anything. In order to better communicate I have forced myself to be a better listener. I have not learned enough. I use the words siempre and nunca, always and never, as and when the conversation dictates. These words are rarely spoken in this pueblo -- perhaps used little in all of Mexico. In a land where nothing is what it appears to be I should expect to hear probables and posibles, a vezes, quisás manana. (probably, possibly, at times, perhaps tomorrow) The language demonstrates the basic fatalistic view of the Mexican people. Fatalism defines the culture, pervades every sector of society.

The bending, warping of time is not culturally unique but it stands out like a c-ckroach on a wedding cake when compared to the U.S. cultural imperative, the atomic clock exactitudes we are so proud of, the "seventeen jewels that dictate the rules".

The western world misinterprets the Mexican time view and world view, sees the people as non-productive, lazy. Time, taken in the abstract, the Mexican way, offsets the Judeo/Christian stigma of guilt. The time-bending thing allows Mexicans to enjoy the leisure and forgiveness of a mas o menos attitude about how they run their daily lives. Being a day early or three days late does not call for a trip to the confessional, a single mea culpa. When two compadres joke with one another, the word lazy, flojo, is often used but it evokes laughter not scorn.

Only now, after spending a few years in Mexico, am I beginning to understand and appreciate the subtlety of these quirks of culture. One day I may reap some of the benefits myself. I won't bore you with a long list of wonderful side effects but we can both feel the obvious orgullo de patria, country pride, a Mexican worker must feel, arriving a week late for work, upon learning that his whole crew was laid off several days ago.

DENNIS - 9-13-2009 at 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
The Mexican Time thing is so intriguing...and very tricky to figure out for sure.

It's easy to figure out. Just take all your clocks and watches, egg timers, hour glasses and sun dials out into the street and run back and forth over them with your truck. Then....you're on Mexican time.

CaboRon - 9-13-2009 at 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
The Mexican Time thing is so intriguing...and very tricky to figure out for sure.

It may actually involve higher powers or more earthly phenomenon ...

Perhaps it is magnetic :cool:

During the month before moving to Mexico the batteries in all three of my watches expired :wow:

arrowhead - 9-13-2009 at 02:51 PM

Mexico is what it is. I still don't understand why some Americans find the attributes that keep Mexico as a third world country so noble. Why is it so great to have a population that is unmotivated, disengaged and so lacking in the altruism that drives more developed countries to greatness? Does anybody here ever question the obvious contradictions in comments posted here? Like when Mexicans are praised as an intelligent, hard-working people, but who show up a week late for the job?

Instead of rejoicing in the Mexican's lack of concern for time, you should ask why you never heard of a computer designed and produced in Mexico, or a car, or an airplane, or a modern medicine. Or wonder how the Mexican space program is coming along, or its war on cancer, or any of thousands of other leading edge technologies that drive the world forward, none of which are developed in Mexico.

I think the people who find glory in the slow pace of Mexico are really just burned-out North Americans who spent the 45 years waiting for their Social Security to kick in by staring out the window daydreaming about childish things, like running away with the circus, or living on a desert island. For sure, taking it easy in your retirement is relaxing. But you forget that if you were born and raised in Mexico, instead of the US or Canada, you wouldn't have a retirement. You can only enjoy the pace of Mexico after spending all your productive years elsewhere. Mexicans are not so lucky.

DENNIS - 9-13-2009 at 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead
I still don't understand why some Americans find the attributes that keep Mexico as a third world country so noble.

They arn't completely unaccomplished. Name another of the worlds people who can sit and lean back against a cactus and take a nap. This skill is immortalized in a million statuettes throughout the trash stores on Lopez Mateos in Ensenada. I've seen them.

Fred - 9-13-2009 at 03:20 PM

Who carries a watch in Mexico anyway............

DENNIS - 9-13-2009 at 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fred
Who carries a watch in Mexico anyway............

Fred....I told you what you're supposed to do with your watches. In the street....zoom zoom zoom. :lol:

Mexico In A Nutshell

CaboRon - 9-13-2009 at 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead
Mexico is what it is. I still don't understand why some Americans find the attributes that keep Mexico as a third world country so noble. Why is it so great to have a population that is unmotivated, disengaged and so lacking in the altruism that drives more developed countries to greatness? Does anybody here ever question the obvious contradictions in comments posted here? Like when Mexicans are praised as an intelligent, hard-working people, but who show up a week late for the job?

Instead of rejoicing in the Mexican's lack of concern for time, you should ask why you never heard of a computer designed and produced in Mexico, or a car, or an airplane, or a modern medicine. Or wonder how the Mexican space program is coming along, or its war on cancer, or any of thousands of other leading edge technologies that drive the world forward, none of which are developed in Mexico.

I think the people who find glory in the slow pace of Mexico are really just burned-out North Americans who spent the 45 years waiting for their Social Security to kick in by staring out the window daydreaming about childish things, like running away with the circus, or living on a desert island. For sure, taking it easy in your retirement is relaxing. But you forget that if you were born and raised in Mexico, instead of the US or Canada, you wouldn't have a retirement. You can only enjoy the pace of Mexico after spending all your productive years elsewhere. Mexicans are not so lucky.

From www.PeoplesGuide.com

David K - 9-13-2009 at 03:28 PM

¡Viva Mexico!
Mexican Time
by P.G. Meier

I live in Gringolandia and when I am here time is time. One of the things that I cherish of my Mexican experiences is losing that sense of time.

Once I got up early to be first in line at a Laundromat in Oaxaca. I hurried past the Juarez market as vendors set up their shops, sanitation workers swept, swept, swept, and bicycle messengers delivered magazines, ice, bundles of sisal.

I ignored the glorious lush cool air and arrived two minutes before the scheduled opening of the Laundromat. I was first in line!

The only thing was, there was no sign of the owner at opening time. Nor was there 10 minutes later, nor 20. The line behind me grew.

When the owner arrived 40 minutes late there was a push to get in the door. A man wanted to know why the owner had not arrived at the scheduled opening hour. The owner replied "That's not important. The important thing is that I'm here now."

That statement encapsulates Mexican time for me.

By the way, our clothes weren't ready when they were promised. While our clothes were being folded we got to talk with two young Norteamericanos who were sitting on the floor of the Laundromat writing postcards. They were off on an ADO bus for Chiapas that night: by traveling at night they saved on hotel money. We left the Laundromat with clean clothes and an expanded sense of time.

from www.cancunsource.com

David K - 9-13-2009 at 03:33 PM

“MEXICAN TIME”: Cancun is no stranger to ‘Mexican Time’, even though it is a city which caters to tourists who are more or less used to the idea of being on time for any appointment or meeting. This is referred to as “Mexican Time”. “Five Mexican minutes” means up to 10 or 15 minutes. The Mexican culture is not nearly as obsessed with promptness as the rest of North America or the rest of the planet, for that matter. This is a laid-back culture, where the word “mañana” (which literally means ‘tomorrow’) actually means “some day other than today”.

Your best advice is to NOT FIGHT IT. You are in Mexico now, and Mexican Time applies to you no matter where you come from. Whereas being 15 minutes late for an appointment in the rest of North America would be considered rude, in Cancun, and the rest of Mexico being as late as half-an-hour or more is just considered ‘the way it is’. “Go with the flow” is the way to regulate your vacation clock.

This can be wildly annoying to people who move here and expect things to work the same way as they are familiar with back home. Remember that Dorothy duly noted “We’re not in Kansas anymore, Toto”. Mexico is not Kansas, nor anyplace else for that matter, Toto, except Mexico. Relax and adapt, or forever be resigned to an aggravation you can not change.

CaboRon - 9-13-2009 at 03:34 PM

David,

It is easy to sing the praises of a place you have NEVER lived in.

The frustrations can be overwhelming when you are trying to take care of daily needs.

Just visiting is far different than actually living there year 'round.

David K - 9-13-2009 at 03:37 PM

Yes Ron, but 'Mexican Time' applies to everyone: tourists, residents, Mexican and Americans... everyone.

You shouldn't have felt singled out by it... as the above two stories I posted are just a tiny sample from the Internet.

Bajahowodd - 9-13-2009 at 03:41 PM

I once again reference the Mediterranean Europe for the key to this phenomenon. That's that's the same area of the world that is lauded for its healthy diet, resulting in longevity. Perhaps, there is a connection.

David K - 9-13-2009 at 03:47 PM

Another thing about Europe... there is a holiday every week (it would seem)... ... Of course that would be a 'fun' life to always be on a vacation!

Soon the few people who are productive will get tired of supporting those who are not... See 'Animal Farm'.

DENNIS - 9-13-2009 at 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Soon the few people who are productive will get tired of supporting those who are not... See 'Animal Farm'.

OOOOOH David....You be in trouble now. :lol:

Bajahowodd - 9-13-2009 at 05:24 PM

Oops. I'm not gonna go there. Except that maybe DK has never been to Europe. They've got their own problems. But, at least they don't have to feel like they have to be the police of the world. If we took anywhere near the amount of money we spend maintaining our troops all around the world, and folded it into domestic programs, we would be a whole lot better off. We have troops in dozens of countries. Germany is just one. Thousands of troups in Germany. Why? Are we expecting the resurgence of the N-zis? The founding fathers were seeking to create a country that was insulated from the tyranny of a monarchy. Obviously, we are not quite a monarchy today, but, I invite anyone out there to name a country that today is involved in the politics and culture of so many other countries. I only ask, WHY? We are not protecting what we call freedom, by having thousands of our troops on foreign soil. What we are doing is enriching the folks who build weapons, and provide contractor services. But then, in today's world, money talks.

Oops, I went there. :barf:

Osprey - 9-13-2009 at 05:45 PM

Doug said "don't feed the trolls" -- before I answer Arrowhead's post above I thought I would just check. Is this one of those times that my argument against him and his position will be countered no matter what, no matter who's position is correct? Is this the troll we were waiting for in other arenas? Normally I wouldn't care but I don't write nice little cultural curiosity pieces about Mexico and Mexicans to have some twit try to trash the people and the culture in the same post. Mexico is what it is. And Arrowhead, you are what you are.

Skipjack Joe - 9-13-2009 at 07:21 PM

Another unattractive trait (to my way of thinking) of the Mexican people is an aversion to say - I don't know.

Mexicans prefer leading you astray rather than emit these 3 simple words. I would attribute it to machismo except that Mexican women have the same difficulty.

Paula - 9-13-2009 at 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Doug said "don't feed the trolls" -- before I answer Arrowhead's post above I thought I would just check. Is this one of those times that my argument against him and his position will be countered no matter what, no matter who's position is correct? Is this the troll we were waiting for in other arenas? Normally I wouldn't care but I don't write nice little cultural curiosity pieces about Mexico and Mexicans to have some twit try to trash the people and the culture in the same post. Mexico is what it is. And Arrowhead, you are what you are.

I think this is the same troll. He just like to be heard, and not to learn from what he reads.

Your "nice little cultural curiosity" piece is not diminished in the least by his negative, insensitive words. It is a gem lying in the gravel of Nomad meanderings. And I would add to your thoughts one of mine about the Mexican language.

I find that the more I speak, the more I need to learn. The more I come to understand how things work down here, the more I realize how untranslatable one language is to another. Context, nuance, concept, belief systems, history-- they all alter our comprehension so incomprehensably. But it is all a lovely pastime, and the folks here are ever so tolerant of our obtuseness, as long as our spirit is good.

Paula - 9-13-2009 at 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Another unattractive trait (to my way of thinking) of the Mexican people is an aversion to say - I don't know.

Mexicans prefer leading you astray rather than emit these 3 simple words. I would attribute it to machismo except that Mexican women have the same difficulty.

Interesting. I attribute this to an almost pathological desire not to disappoint you, and I find it rather charming.

[Edited on 9-14-2009 by Paula]

David K - 9-13-2009 at 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Oops. I'm not gonna go there. Except that maybe DK has never been to Europe...

Yes, I have... but only to 'a couple' of countries (Greece, Italy, Vatican City, Switzerland, Germany, Luxemburg, France, United Kingdom)... so what do I know? :lol:

Skipjack Joe - 9-13-2009 at 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula

Quote:

Interesting. I attribute this to an almost pathological desire not to disappoint you, and I find it rather charming.

[Edited on 9-14-2009 by Paula]

I would agree with you Paula except that being led on with made up facts becomes pretty disappointing in the end. There is, however, the momentary sense of relief when you think you have the facts.

No, I thought it's an attempt to not appear weak. "I don't know" - although honest - may appear weak.

arrowhead - 9-13-2009 at 09:56 PM

Quote:

Let me translate that for Osprey. What he really said was: "Gee, I really don't have a rebuttal argument that carries any weight. So, I'll sidestep getting nailed by my vacuous argument and just be a troglodyte and call that Arrowhead fellow a few names. I'm sure one of my message board sycophants will chime in to support me. After all, if you are not FOR Mexico, then you must be AGAINST Mexico. Subtleties and nuances are for elitists. I'll countenance none of that. It's all either black or white for me. That way I don't have to think too hard."

arrowhead - 9-13-2009 at 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
We have troops in dozens of countries. Germany is just one. Thousands of troups in Germany. Why? Are we expecting the resurgence of the N-zis?

Maybe you should Google "NATO" and read up on its purpose and why we have troops stationed there. Hint: It is not about N-zi's.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I invite anyone out there to name a country that today is involved in the politics and culture of so many other countries.

(1)Russia. It has its fingers in a dozen countries that were former parts of the Soviet Union. Ask any Georgian.

(2)China. Ask any Tibetan. And China is the only country that is propping up North Korea. North Korea would have collapsed a long time ago without Chinese aid.

Paulina - 9-13-2009 at 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fred
Who carries a watch in Mexico anyway............

Wrist watches in Baja are only good for showing off tan lines back stateside.

It's usually the first piece of "clothing" I take off once we cross the border.

Back to the manana issue, after waiting for three days for a water delivery that was promised yesterday, that finally pulls up on the fourth day as your panga is heading out to sea can be quite frustrating.

I always think that if I lived in Baja full time I would have all the mananas in the world to wait for. If I'm on borrowed time, it's a tough pill to swallow.

P<*)))>{

kp_martin - 9-13-2009 at 10:20 PM

This thread brings back some fond memories and perhaps a little insight into the "I don't know" issue. We would often hop on a bus having no real idea where it was going and head off into the unknown. When we saw something interesting, we would get off and wander through the streets stopping for an occasional cerveza enjoyed on the curb, often with the proprietor of the store and just take in the local atmosphere. Across the street a woman would come with a bucket of water and wash the dishes, then the child under great protest which we all found very funny. When the baby was clean, she would get some clothing and wash until the water and soap was done. Dump the remaining water in the street. By then our cervezas were done as well. We'd wander off. At some point we need to find the bus back to town. I'd ask and everyone had an opinion. They were trying to be helpful, not understanding my poor spanish and rather than telling me my spanish sucks, they would give directions; trying to be helpful to these lost gringos. "I don't know" or understand wouldn't be of much help in their thinking. But maybe if we send them off to somewhere, somebody there might know what we were asking. I always thought that was their philosophy. Eventually we would find someone that understood and knew where we could get the bus; often taking us to the proper location. It's all part of mexico and the charm of the loving folks there. Slow down and absorb the lifestyle. There's generally no need to hurry and criticize those that are trying to be helpful..

DavidT - 9-13-2009 at 10:48 PM

Quote:

It is good when one has the time to just wander.

Or wonder. As in why would anyone go to Mexico and expect the country to bend to the timeclock that controls their life.

kp_martin - 9-13-2009 at 11:00 PM

LOL jdtrotter! I remember one time riding a bus out of Puerto Vallarta and ended up in the middle of nowhere (I guess) and my wife and I are the only ones left on the bus. he parked and shut off the bus, got off and lit up a smoke. We finally decided he was waiting for us to get off. So we did. He got back in and started it up, we gave him a few more pesos and headed back the way we came! That was nothing but pure fun! Whoda thunk it?

Bajahowodd - 9-14-2009 at 04:18 PM

Arrowhead- Please identify a country in the world that has a defense budget appraoching that of ours and has anywhere near the numbers of troops abroad. We could solve many of our domestic problems just by reallocating our priorities, and still have ample defense and security. Sorry for the sorta hijack.

DENNIS - 9-14-2009 at 04:29 PM

Now....That's Baja.

mtgoat666 - 9-14-2009 at 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Can you show me a country other than the US that is as hated by so many governments (because we dare to have freedom) thus requiring the best armed forces in the world? Those same anti US governments whose people risk death to leave and come to the U.S., mind you!

DK,
they don't "hate us" because we "dare to have freedom." they oppose us because we mess around inside their country (figuratively and literally), and our reasons are often publicly stated as being "liberation," when all know our reasons are usually about extracting natural resources or protecting trade for our big industries.

David K - 9-14-2009 at 04:56 PM

Goat, after I posted that... I removed it, BECAUSE it just added fuel to the fire of U.S. hate you and your friends have... and it isn't Baja related. There was no need for you to drag it back up unless you enjoy hating... :light:

Bajahowodd - 9-14-2009 at 04:59 PM

DK- I think Glen Beck is on right now.

David K - 9-14-2009 at 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
DK- I think Glen Beck is on right now.

Is he any good? :rolleyes:

BAJACAT - 9-14-2009 at 06:19 PM

A guy is wating for his friend (mexican friend), wich is about a hour late, so by this time he is pretty upset. His friend finally shows up and says " WHY ARE YOU PIST OFF AT ME, I JUST GOT HERE'..coute from George Lopez(comedian). Sorry i couldn't help my self..

[Edited on 9-15-2009 by BAJACAT]

[Edited on 9-15-2009 by BAJACAT]

arrowhead - 9-14-2009 at 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Arrowhead- Please identify a country in the world that has a defense budget appraoching that of ours and has anywhere near the numbers of troops abroad. We could solve many of our domestic problems just by reallocating our priorities, and still have ample defense and security. Sorry for the sorta hijack.

Well you just changed the question, didn't you? First you asked who meddles more, and not getting the answer you expected, now you are asking who spends more on defense.

I've got good news and bad news for you. The bad news is that the US spends about 10 times more on defense than the next largest spender (China). The good news is that we can afford it. When you look at total defense spending as a percentage of a country's GDP, we are way down on the list, we are number 28. That means there are 27 countries in the world that spend a greater percentage of their GDP on defense than the US.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/mil_exp_per_of_gdp-militar...

But, now we go on to disprove your theory that if we spent less on defense we would have more to solve our domestic problems.

The US spent approximately $800 billion last year on defense.

Mexico spent $6 billion on defense. That is 3/4 of 1% of the US budget.

The US has 304 million people, Mexico has 110 million people, or about one-third of the US. So, with all that money not spent of defense and available for domestic problems, why is Mexico so far behind the US in domestic infrastructure? Where did the money go? Why do you think defense dollars not spent convert to domestic improvements?

CaboRon - 9-14-2009 at 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead

Mexico spent $6 billion on defense. That is 3/4 of 1% of the US budget.

The US has 304 million people, Mexico has 110 million people, or about one-third of the US. So, with all that money not spent of defense and available for domestic problems, why is Mexico so far behind the US in domestic infrastructure? Where did the money go? Why do you think defense dollars not spent convert to domestic improvements?

That money went into private pockets .

Mordida, Bribary, and Skimming are what business , government and culture are based on in Mexico .

Remember ? Rotten To The Core .

[Edited on 9-15-2009 by CaboRon]

mtgoat666 - 9-14-2009 at 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Goat, after I posted that... I removed it, BECAUSE it just added fuel to the fire of U.S. hate you and your friends have... and it isn't Baja related. There was no need for you to drag it back up unless you enjoy hating... :light:

dk,
I am sure you have no idea what I hate or do not hate, and I am also sure you never will have a clue.

Fred - 9-15-2009 at 02:16 PM

You know I did think of ONE important time for me in Baja. That is 10 a.m. because they won't sell beer until then. Hell, when I am down there I really don't even care what day it is.

DENNIS - 9-15-2009 at 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fred
You know I did think of ONE important time for me in Baja. That is 10 a.m. because they won't sell beer until then. Hell, when I am down there I really don't even care what day it is.

Except tomorrow. Do your shopping today 'cause most everything will be closed for Independence Day.

Bajahowodd - 9-15-2009 at 04:16 PM

Arrowhead- You appear to deal with questions as a lawyer would. Just an observation from someone who spent a long career work with the legal system. I'm somewhat hesitant to tweak this once again, but despite all your statistics, would it still not make some sense to reallocate a significant portion of the money we do spend on defense to domestic issues? Maybe we could create the living environment that would be the envy of the world.

MitchMan - 9-17-2009 at 11:39 AM

Finally got the time to respond to this thread - it's one of my hot buttons.

The lack of appropriate respect for time is a major, major flaw in the Mexican culture. It is symptomatic of other behaviors and sheer laziness, not to mention that it is form of dishonest behavior. I have always thought that laziness is a form of theft as often the things that don't get done or done properly cause someone else a detriment that must be suffered and/or paid for to remedy.

There is no excuse for this behavior, period! The only thing that is good about it is that this behavior reduces stress on the perpetrator of the tardiness. The bad things about it are numerous and far, far outway the benefit (besides, it benefits the wrong and undeserving person). A responsible society must weigh stress against the detriments of tardiness. In the end, to defend tardiness is a losing battle.

I whole-heatedly agree with the person who likened this Mexican flaw to the inability of being honest and honorable and admitting, "I don't know". Rather than being on time and rather than being honest, they will tell you something that is not correct. Then, when you rely on the false info, again, someone else (often you) suffers the detriment and has to pay for the remedy.

These two behaviors have cost me weeks and months of time and thousands and thousands of dollars. Not right. There is no defense for this.

The interesting thing about these flaws is that it is not limited to the average Mexican citizen, it is rampant, ubiquitous and pervasive among the so-called Mexican professionals (architects and contractors, accountants, lawyers, government officials, bankers, notarios, and immigration personnel).

I absolutely hate this about Mexico. With all my experiences over the years, I have come to a more informed and therefore logically cynical feel, opinion and regard for Mexico and it's people. Now that I KNOW what to expect, how can I feel "wonderful" about the country and its people? You know, they have bars over all their windows for a reason.

I will still maintain a presence in Baja, but it is appropriately guarded. Soon, I will be able to simplify and limit my activity to fishing and vacationing. I am looking forward to not having to deal with administrative things anymore and I will place my money, time and effots elsewhere.

Mexico is what it is. I now know what it "is" and it certainly does not measure up to what I initially thought.

There are many things that I love about Mexico: the weather, the lucious fruits and chicken meat, the terrain, the beaches, the fishing, the partying, the low cost of labor and housing and utilities and gasoline, and very certain and selected people - not most people and not the government. I will never go back to Hawaii because Mexico has everything that Hawaii has at 1/3 the cost. I will, however, start to recreate more in the USA, Canada, and Europe from now on.

DENNIS - 9-17-2009 at 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MitchMan
The lack of appropriate respect for time is a major, major flaw in the Mexican culture. It is symptomatic of other behaviors and sheer laziness, not to mention that it is form of dishonest behavior. I have always thought that laziness is a form of theft as often the things that don't get done or done properly cause someone else a detriment that must be suffered and/or paid for to remedy.

Man Oh Man, Mitch....I hope you're wearing your asbestos jock strap 'cause they're gonna be coming after you now. :lol:

MitchMan - 9-17-2009 at 12:06 PM

I know, Dennis, that's why this forum is so much fun and down right addictive.

movinguy - 9-17-2009 at 01:26 PM

I get a lot of ribbing from my Mexican family about living my life "on a schedule".

I tell them it has its merits . . .

bajalera - 9-17-2009 at 01:56 PM

I'm so late with this post that the Mexican-time thread has been hijacked, but I'm going to pretend not to have noticed:

After living in La Paz long enough to count on everything being at least 45 minutes late, we turned up on that schedule for a parade--to find that it was over. Parades started on time even in the Good Old Days.

DENNIS - 9-17-2009 at 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalera
Parades started on time even in the Good Old Days.

Are you sure? It may have been a year late.

Osprey - 9-17-2009 at 02:17 PM

Mitch, before you can go any farther trying to convince us that people who are late are liars and theives you must be careful not to insinuate that those who are punctual are perfect. You are right about being late and the cost -- turns out that as people get more punctual, the costs goes up. To prove my point, that later is cheaper, if they never show up, there is no cost at all for the product or service you ordered. Don't stay up nights, my man. Here's something much more worthy of your concern. Inanimate objects are the natural enemy of man. Two guys proved that one -- they got a ladder, some loaves of bread, a zillion carpet swatches (all different quality), and finally some cherry jam. Jammed up the bread, climbed the ladder, tossed the bread, let it land on the carpet. You already know the answer; the number of times the bread landed jam down was directly proportional to the price of the carpet. Just tossing that around in your brain will make your Mexican trips seem almost culture fault neutral.

[Edited on 9-17-2009 by Osprey]

Natalie Ann - 9-17-2009 at 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kp_martin
LOL jdtrotter! I remember one time riding a bus out of Puerto Vallarta and ended up in the middle of nowhere (I guess) and my wife and I are the only ones left on the bus. he parked and shut off the bus, got off and lit up a smoke. We finally decided he was waiting for us to get off. So we did. He got back in and started it up, we gave him a few more pesos and headed back the way we came! That was nothing but pure fun! Whoda thunk it?

kp martin... and so we meet again. Buenas, amigo.

First time I enjoyed your bus trip story was one evening in spring of 2004 at Serenidad. You and your lovely woman, our pilot Michael, me 'n my husband happened together to enjoy dinner and drinks and stories.... stories that had me laughin' so hard my tummi ached the next day. I still have a picture of you two out in the jungle shouting "Returno?!"

Neat to meet you again on Nomads.
Maybe soon we'll be blessed to share another story hour in Baja. :yes:

nena

Edit: ooops, apologies for having hijacked all this with my little hello.... I'll try to control myself in the future - honest.

[Edited on 9-17-2009 by Natalie Ann]

arrowhead - 9-17-2009 at 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
-- turns out that as people get more punctual, the costs goes up. To prove my point, that later is cheaper, if they never show up, there is no cost at all for the product or service you ordered.

OK, don't call me a troll because I disagree with your sophmoric analysis. There are numerous examples where not showing up costs more money. If your water pipe is broken, it costs you to sit and watch your water flow into the street waiting for the plomero. If you're building a house and have a mortgage, the interest clock keeps ticking away while no work is being done on your house, so it costs you more. If your power goes out, it costs you money as your food in the freezer turns rotten.

If you have a heart attack, it could cost you your life waiting for an ambulance.

kp_martin - 9-17-2009 at 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Natalie Ann

Quote:

kp martin... and so we meet again. Buenas, amigo.

nena

Edit: ooops, apologies for having hijacked all this with my little hello.... I'll try to control myself in the future - honest.

[Edited on 9-17-2009 by Natalie Ann]

I've hijacked better threads than this one! Good to hear from you! LOL I sent pm.

To get back on topic.... When I was in the service business, I charged extra to show up on time or if the customer was a PITA... But it was free if I didn't make it. Now I'm retired... Salud!

Osprey - 9-18-2009 at 06:54 AM

If the notario didn't show, you wouldn't have bought the land, began to build --- no cost. As an attorney you can and will argue both sides for $ so you can finish this yourself if you wish.

Well Stated

CaboRon - 9-18-2009 at 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MitchMan
Finally got the time to respond to this thread - it's one of my hot buttons.

The lack of appropriate respect for time is a major, major flaw in the Mexican culture. It is symptomatic of other behaviors and sheer laziness, not to mention that it is form of dishonest behavior. I have always thought that laziness is a form of theft as often the things that don't get done or done properly cause someone else a detriment that must be suffered and/or paid for to remedy.

There is no excuse for this behavior, period! The only thing that is good about it is that this behavior reduces stress on the perpetrator of the tardiness. The bad things about it are numerous and far, far outway the benefit (besides, it benefits the wrong and undeserving person). A responsible society must weigh stress against the detriments of tardiness. In the end, to defend tardiness is a losing battle.

I whole-heatedly agree with the person who likened this Mexican flaw to the inability of being honest and honorable and admitting, "I don't know". Rather than being on time and rather than being honest, they will tell you something that is not correct. Then, when you rely on the false info, again, someone else (often you) suffers the detriment and has to pay for the remedy.

These two behaviors have cost me weeks and months of time and thousands and thousands of dollars. Not right. There is no defense for this.

The interesting thing about these flaws is that it is not limited to the average Mexican citizen, it is rampant, ubiquitous and pervasive among the so-called Mexican professionals (architects and contractors, accountants, lawyers, government officials, bankers, notarios, and immigration personnel).

I absolutely hate this about Mexico. With all my experiences over the years, I have come to a more informed and therefore logically cynical feel, opinion and regard for Mexico and it's people. Now that I KNOW what to expect, how can I feel "wonderful" about the country and its people? You know, they have bars over all their windows for a reason.

I will still maintain a presence in Baja, but it is appropriately guarded. Soon, I will be able to simplify and limit my activity to fishing and vacationing. I am looking forward to not having to deal with administrative things anymore and I will place my money, time and effots elsewhere.

Mexico is what it is. I now know what it "is" and it certainly does not measure up to what I initially thought.

There are many things that I love about Mexico: the weather, the lucious fruits and chicken meat, the terrain, the beaches, the fishing, the partying, the low cost of labor and housing and utilities and gasoline, and very certain and selected people - not most people and not the government. I will never go back to Hawaii because Mexico has everything that Hawaii has at 1/3 the cost. I will, however, start to recreate more in the USA, Canada, and Europe from now on.

Osprey - 9-18-2009 at 10:00 AM

Mitch, you will love Europe. Especially France with their 4 day work week, unending paid vacations, special paid holidays. Everybody does it -- kind of a socialist thing where somebody else will do your work while you kick back. Kicking back is good. You call it lazy, worthless, thievery if it's in Mexico. I don't think Mexico will welcome your "presence" here if you intend to take reparations for all the things they've done to you over the years. Maybe you picked up some kind of bug down here. It happens. You should see a doctor. Don't be late.

vandenberg - 9-18-2009 at 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Mitch, you will love Europe. Especially France with their 4 day work week, unending paid vacations, special paid holidays. Everybody does it -- kind of a socialist thing where somebody else will do your work while you kick back. Kicking back is good. You call it lazy, worthless, thievery if it's in Mexico. I don't think Mexico will welcome your "presence" here if you intend to take reparations for all the things they've done to you over the years. Maybe you picked up some kind of bug down here. It happens. You should see a doctor. Don't be late.

If no health insurance, he's doomed. :biggrin:

Skipjack Joe - 9-18-2009 at 10:52 AM

This argument could go on forever. And it has, in it's various forms on numerous threads.

On the one hand civilization moves forward by nations that are honest and hardworking. On the other hand citizens from those same cultures are overwhelmingly happy when they come across a country like Mexico and get away from the 'rat race'.

Each side has a point and neither one is fully true. The German and Japanese cultures could benefit from Mexico's attitude to living and the Mexicans could really benefit from a dose of calvinism.

You can tell early on how you're going to turn out. Were you the one who sat in the front row of the classroom or the one who sat back there daydreaming with restless eyes on the open window?

Andale conejos!

toneart - 9-18-2009 at 12:10 PM

Llego tarde, llego tarde,
a una cita muy importante.
No hay tiempo para decir...
Hola! Adiós!
llego tarde, llego tarde, llego tarde!

Ai!

:bounce:

kp_martin - 9-18-2009 at 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
This argument could go on forever. And it has, in it's various forms on numerous threads.

On the one hand civilization moves forward by nations that are honest and hardworking. On the other hand citizens from those same cultures are overwhelmingly happy when they come across a country like Mexico and get away from the 'rat race'.

Each side has a point and neither one is fully true. The German and Japanese cultures could benefit from Mexico's attitude to living and the Mexicans could really benefit from a dose of calvinism.

You can tell early on how you're going to turn out. Were you the one who sat in the front row of the classroom or the one who sat back there daydreaming with restless eyes on the open window?

Hiitin home run here, lol. Had the grandkids here last night and while helping #1, #2 folds up and goes to watch tv. I go grab him and say you aren't done, yes I am, I say you didn't try the "optional" problem! My teacher said i didn't have to; it's "optional", he says. You're at my house and optional isn't in the equation! Figger it out!. much trial and tribulation and he got it! geesh... Try to get these kids to get ahead of the rest is a tough battle these days.

vandenberg - 9-19-2009 at 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kp_martin
.Hiitin home run here, lol. Had the grandkids here last night and while helping #1, #2 folds up and goes to watch tv. I go grab him and say you aren't done, yes I am, I say you didn't try the "optional" problem! My teacher said i didn't have to; it's "optional", he says. You're at my house and optional isn't in the equation! Figger it out!. much trial and tribulation and he got it! geesh... Try to get these kids to get ahead of the rest is a tough battle these days.

This may qualify for hijack of the week. :biggrin:

DENNIS - 9-19-2009 at 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg

This may qualify for hijack of the week. :biggrin:

One of these days, we're gonna have an awards show.

"And, the winner is".............

DianaT - 9-19-2009 at 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg

This may qualify for hijack of the week. :biggrin:

One of these days, we're gonna have an awards show.

"And, the winner is".............

But once that winner is announced, what is going to stop someone from grabbing the mic and proclaiming another a much better hijacker, therefore hijacking the awards??

Oso - 9-19-2009 at 10:08 AM

Fact: The two countries that purchase the greatest number of wristwatches per capita are Mexico and Saudi Arabia. It's not that they pay any attention to them, they just like to wear them.

Surprisingly perhaps, Scots are also known for a lackadaisical attitude toward time. An American reporter was once interviewing a well known Scot (Connery maybe?) on this subject and asked if there was an equivalent expression to "mañana" in Gaelic. "Ach no", he replied, "We hae no worrrd to exprrress such a sense of urrrgency."

Skipjack Joe - 9-19-2009 at 12:39 PM

I'm giving it all she's got, Captain!

st_doohan_capchair.jpg - 47kB

woody with a view - 9-19-2009 at 01:31 PM

Quote:

Or wonder how the Mexican space program is coming along

seeing as every time someone shouts, "launch!" they all sit down and have a snack, i'd say it is still "coming along."
:lol:

one other point- why am i always on time when leaving for baja but always dragging my feet when it's time to go home again???

and the mystery continues....

DENNIS - 9-19-2009 at 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob

seeing as every time someone shouts, "launch!" they all sit down and have a snack

Is that yours, Woody? Very funny. :lol:

woody with a view - 9-19-2009 at 01:36 PM

for our purposes here, perhaps!

DENNIS - 9-19-2009 at 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob
for our purposes here, perhaps!

Close enough for me. :lol:

40,000 public servants lack a basic education

arrowhead - 9-19-2009 at 02:14 PM

Quote:

http://www.oem.com.mx/elsudcaliforniano/notas/n1330858.htm

Ciudad de México.- El Instituto Nacional para la Educación de los Adultos (INEA), detectó que 40 mil servidores públicos de 140 dependencias del Gobierno federal no cuentan con educación básica.

The National Institute for Adult Education found that 40,000 public servants in 140 federal agencies lack a basic education. This is what a country gets with a "mañana" attitude.

Osprey - 9-19-2009 at 02:36 PM

Lighten up. Those people were undoubtedly home schooled.

DENNIS - 9-19-2009 at 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Lighten up. Those people were undoubtedly home schooled.

It's the new thing:
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I think one can become a brain surgeon this way. All you need is a saw and screwdriver.....and a little bit of money.

bajalera - 9-19-2009 at 04:28 PM

The misuse of apostrophes in this thread is truly shocking!

[I'm shooting for that Hijack Gold Medal, Dennis.]

vandenberg - 9-19-2009 at 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalera
The misuse of apostrophes in this thread is truly shocking!

[I'm shooting for that Hijack Gold Medal, Dennis.]

Big words, like elephant, mountain, apostrowhatever always tend to throw me. Apparently, my homeschooling didn't suffice. :biggrin: