BajaNomad - Vigilantes on rise in Mexico

Vigilantes on rise in Mexico

Woooosh - 10-8-2009 at 08:27 AM

Looks like the people are beginning to step-up and fill the security gap... er... chasm. "that is a big step toward anarchy -- with potentially hair-raising consequences for San Diego, Yuma, Nogales and other U.S. cities near the border"

From Today's UT opionions pages...

"While no one can justify the trampling of citizens' rights, what the erstwhile cabinet member and his like-minded confreres forget is that in the absence of a reliable, clean, professional civilian police there is something much worse than mobilizing soldiers, sailors and marines against wrongdoers -- namely, the rise of vigilantism.

Criticism is surging against the heavy reliance on the armed forces to combat the Tijuana Cartel and other venal Mexican drug organizations. The assignment of the military to undertake law-enforcement duties has sparked charges of human rights violations even as citizen self-defense groups are springing to life.

Former Foreign Secretary Jorge Castañeda, a board member of Human Rights Watch, has urged the U.S. State Department to withhold 15 percent of Mérida Initiative funding in light of mistreatment. In a letter to The Washington Post in August, he argued that: "Human rights abuses are a major obstacle to Mexico's efforts to strengthen public security and contain drug-related violence. By abusing civilians, Mexican soldiers have contributed to the climate of lawlessness and violence in which drug cartels have thrived. These abuses also deter the public cooperation essential to curbing trafficking."
While no one can justify the trampling of citizens' rights, what the erstwhile cabinet member and his like-minded confreres forget is that in the absence of a reliable, clean, professional civilian police there is something much worse than mobilizing soldiers, sailors and marines against wrongdoers -- namely, the rise of vigilantism.

Of course, egregious abuses have occurred. On June 1, 2007, soldiers at a checkpoint in the Sierra Mountains of Sinaloa fired more than a dozen rounds into an automobile, killing three children and two unarmed women. In the aftermath of the bloodbath, the Defense Ministry, which has established a human rights' office, arrested three officers and 16 soldiers. Still, on March 26, 2008, soldiers killed five more Grayson is the Class of 1938 Professor of Government at the College of William & Mary and a senior associate at the Center for Strategic & International Studies. His next book, "Mexico: Narco-Violence and a Failed State?" will be published this month. civilians whose car failed to stop at a guard post in Badiraguato, Sinaloa.

Castañeda and his confreres seek to have allegations of human rights abuses heard by civilian courts.
They argued that of the 500 suspected human rights violations presented to the Army between January 1, 2006, and December 31, 2008, only 174 investigations were initiated, just eleven suspects were apprehended and no sentences were handed down. Military tribunals hear most criminal cases against soldiers and they often treat them as disciplinary matters rather than crimes.

No one would be happier than President Felipe Calderón if he could transfer pursuit of criminal syndicates from the army and navy to civilian police. Yet despite the down mafiosi in Ciudad Juárez. At least two other vigilante-style bands have dispatched statements to the media: one in the northern state of Sonora, the other in the Pacific state of Guerrero.

The execution of Benjamin Le Baron, an anti-cartel activist in Galeana, Chihuahua, prompted his law-abiding Mormon community to move toward taking up arms and forming its own self-defense force.

Cabbies in Mexico City's sprawling Magdalena Contreras borough have suffered multiple assaults and robberies at the hands of thugs believed to be protected by the police.
When local authorities failed to nab the culprits, the taxistas acted. They seized the presumed leader of the assailants, "El Perro," and bludgeoned mid-year reorganization of the federal police, Mexico lacks a credible, effective law-enforcement capability.

In the absence of trustworthy cops, citizens are taking the law into their own hands. The self-styled Juárez Citizen Command (CCJ) has sprung to life in the violenceplagued city across from El Paso. In an e-mail to the media, this shadowy band claimed to be funded by local businessmen outraged by kidnappings, murder, and extortion in the sprawling metropolis of 1.4 million people. The CCJ may have been responsible for the killing six men in their 20s and 30s in October 2008; a sign left behind read: "Message for all the rats. This will continue."

Reuters news service reported that another group, "Businessmen United, The Death Squad," aired a YouTube video threatening to hunt him to death.

On August 14, two leaders of the informal "Taxi Drivers' Pact," were arrested with El Perro's cadaver in the back seat of their Ford Aerostar. The outcome of their case is pending.

Thus far only a dozen or so vigilante organizations have emerged. However, Defense Secretary Guillermo Galván must make good on his pledge to accentuate the importance of human rights to the armed forces. Meanwhile, critics of the military must remember that removing troops from the streets -- in the absence of competent police -- will lead more crime victims to take the law into their own hands.

And that is a big step toward anarchy -- with potentially hair-raising consequences for San Diego, Yuma, Nogales and other U.S. cities near the border. "

Mexicorn - 10-8-2009 at 10:37 AM

Nice post from the San Diego minute men-
Those guys are such haters of anything to do with mexico.
Say hi to the Schwilkster for me

Bajahowodd - 10-8-2009 at 11:08 AM

Bajahowodd - 10-8-2009 at 12:24 PM

Be careful what you wish for. Vigilantism is a sign of breakdown in the civil order that cannot bode well for the health of the republic.

Barry A. - 10-8-2009 at 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Be careful what you wish for. Vigilantism is a sign of breakdown in the civil order that cannot bode well for the health of the republic.

I did not realize that there was any doubt about the "------breakdown in the civil order------". This situation, it seems to me, is a logical response to the failure of the authorities to control and protect, and totally predictable. If the civilians had failed to do anything, then I would have been very disapponted and disgusted.

Until some measure of control of the situation is obtained, I think that normal "human rights" are suspended. It can't go on the way it has been.

Barry

Bajahowodd - 10-8-2009 at 12:56 PM

All well and good if the so-called vigilantes reflect your own values and issues. But what happens when they don't?

Barry A. - 10-8-2009 at 02:04 PM

There are always unintended consequences of most bold actions-------the way things are now vigilantes may be the least of all the evil choices available, and they can be effective-----------Mexico can sort out stuff when the cartels are rendered effectively weak and in disarray.

Corruption, which is the "real problem", is a different matter, but it will only be contained when the people take it upon themselves to rid themselves of it [easy to say, hard (impossible??) to accomplish, I admit]

Barry

DENNIS - 10-8-2009 at 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
The Minutemen disgust me but all I can do is hope they disappear or go too far and get thrown in jail.

Why do they disgust you? You didn't say.

tripledigitken - 10-8-2009 at 04:33 PM

I love Dirty Harry movies.

David K - 10-8-2009 at 04:46 PM

Why do some of you have no problem with guns in the hands of criminals or corrupt government officials... BUT have a cow with ANY posts about guns in the hands of honest citizens who want their country back?

The Minutemen wouldn't be along the border if:

A) people didn't violate our law and cross illegally into the U.S. or

B) the Border Patrol was able to do their jobs and secure the border.

People who want to live in peace and without fear of attack have the right and duty to protect their families and property with any means to repell aggression... in Mexico, America, anywhere.

Focus your hate and anger at the LAW BREAKERS... If the law was obeyed, vigilantes in Mexico or Minutemen in America could go back home and enjoy life!

DENNIS - 10-8-2009 at 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Focus your hate and anger at the LAW BREAKERS... If the law was obeyed, vigilantes in Mexico or Minutemen in America could go back home and enjoy life!

Jeeeezo David...I agree with what you say, in a way but, we shouln't have hate and anger for anything. That ruins understanding.
We have to have a better frame of mind to enforce our laws. Minutemen included.

DENNIS - 10-8-2009 at 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Vigilantes in my book. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, etc.

What's wrong with vigilantes if those entrusted to do the job that needs to be done won't do it?

DENNIS - 10-8-2009 at 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
Xenophobes.

That is such pathetic nonsense. Shame on you for saying that.
Is it xenophobic to think that we have a border worth protecting?

DENNIS - 10-8-2009 at 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
The border patrol has been hiring for years. The should apply for jobs if they want to help.

Help them do what? The same nothing they've been doing forever?
What a waste of manpower and worse, public condidance that they may be doing something towards their mission.

What a ***ing joke they are, made worse that they accept really good pay for doing nothing toward an end. They just keep doing nothing and thay just keep getting paid for their good efforts.

Wake up. It's your money being spent for nothing.

DENNIS - 10-8-2009 at 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
"Preservation of a long-established American heritage, culture, and language to facilitate commerce and communication, and provide a common bond among the population."

I have no idea what this garbage means.
I do know that if anybody, regardless of of how red-neck they seem to be, makes an effort to protect the perimiter of the country, in spite of the US government choice to view that endeavor as irrelevant, is more patriot than the president who ignores them.

Argue that, if you will.

Our country...Our border. Why would you or any other US patriot try to find fault with this?

bajaguy - 10-8-2009 at 08:23 PM

...........wire Paladin, San Francisco...........

Paladin - 10-9-2009 at 05:01 PM

Paladin retired to Fresno

Trying to sell some of his guns to pay for a trailer in San Bruno.

He already has his ARCA Panga

Social Security starts next year.

Warn the fish

woody with a view - 10-9-2009 at 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paladin
Paladin retired to Fresno

Trying to sell some of his guns to pay for a trailer in San Bruno.

He already has his ARCA Panga

Social Security starts next year.

Warn the fish

they've been warned!!!!! :light:

Mexicorn - 10-9-2009 at 08:31 PM

Say hello yo Lil dog of the Campo minute men. Hey Lil dog your parole Officer know your wearing a gun up there?
Futherermore does anybody know the name of that Big Hollywood movie studio that allowing those racists to squatt on the land?

bajaguy - 10-10-2009 at 07:52 AM

Quote:

No, I mean the REAL Paladin........the hired gun who cleans up other people's problems........

mtgoat666 - 10-10-2009 at 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Why do some of you have no problem with guns in the hands of criminals or corrupt government officials... BUT have a cow with ANY posts about guns in the hands of honest citizens who want their country back?

The Minutemen wouldn't be along the border if:

A) people didn't violate our law and cross illegally into the U.S. or

B) the Border Patrol was able to do their jobs and secure the border.

People who want to live in peace and without fear of attack have the right and duty to protect their families and property with any means to repell aggression... in Mexico, America, anywhere.

Focus your hate and anger at the LAW BREAKERS... If the law was obeyed, vigilantes in Mexico or Minutemen in America could go back home and enjoy life!

dk,
the minutemen have a large proportion of racists/bigots on their roster. minutement are bigotsand nationalists, and generally are thugs that are unaware of or refuse to acknowledge basic civil rights.
minutement are an embarassment to the US

capt. mike - 10-10-2009 at 09:44 AM

i wish Paladin was on TV.
anyone seen it on DVD or HULU?

minutemen are thick in AZ. last time i read it the Constitution allows the populace to keep a trained and armed militia, and the right to BEAR ARMS!!!

David K - 10-10-2009 at 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Goat, I was about to say you have come over to the common sense side of the isle after reading your reply to Vagabndo about his blocking faster traffic by refusing to pull to the right lane!

Then that slipped away with this garbage about volunteers being bigots... You say they have a large proportion of racists. How do you know this?

Does loving one's own country and wanting to preserve it (being a nationalist) make someone bad? Are Americans supposed to let their country go to hell to be 'fair' to all the violators of our frontier.

The Minutemen telephone the border patrol if they witness an invasion of our territory... How is that phone calling make them 'thugs'?

The Minutemen are an assest by helping the Border Patrol, and do so without pay.

Mexico doesn't allow Americans to stay in Mexico if their laws are violated... and are not Americans living in Mexico a benefit to the economy there? Sure beats the situation up here where the illegals are a drain on our public resources. Ever go to a hospital Emergency room in Southern California where by law, all get treated without needing to pay? Oh sure, you and I who are legal will get billed... not the illegals. FREE HEALTH CARE already exists for anyone who is not an American... so costs go up, up up for us legal types.

If it was white skinned Canadians doing what the Mexicans are to our borders, the Minutemen would still be helping... IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE'S SKIN COLOR, so drop the race card. It is a citizen's duty to preserve our country, is it not?

Bajahowodd - 10-10-2009 at 11:06 AM

Quote:

If it was white skinned Canadians doing what the Mexicans are to our borders, the Minutemen would still be helping... IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE'S SKIN COLOR, so drop the race card. It is a citizen's duty to preserve our country, is it not?

thanks for the best laugh of the day! :lol:

mtgoat666 - 10-10-2009 at 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
If it was white skinned Canadians doing what the Mexicans are to our borders, the Minutemen would still be helping... IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE'S SKIN COLOR, so drop the race card. It is a citizen's duty to preserve our country, is it not?

thanks for the best laugh of the day! :lol:

amazing that people like DK can't see that it is all about class and skin color and culture and language

mtgoat666 - 10-10-2009 at 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Ever go to a hospital Emergency room in Southern California where by law, all get treated without needing to pay? Oh sure, you and I who are legal will get billed... not the illegals. FREE HEALTH CARE already exists for anyone who is not an American... so costs go up, up up for us legal types.

dk,
it doesn't bother me if people living in poverty get free medical care. i think a wealthy country like USA should provided services, including health care, for poor people. i am happy that my taxes and perhaps my insurance payments may benefit the poor.

Bajahowodd - 10-10-2009 at 11:26 AM

I think it roots back to innate tribalism. As you point out, especially skin color. And let's not overlook the common heritage of at least initially coming from Britain. The US is becoming more and more a majority of minorities. White folks who cannot achieve some level of comfort with becoming a minority among minorities are going to act out. What worries me is that such acting out is likely to become more overt.

[Edited on 10-10-2009 by Bajahowodd]

mtgoat666 - 10-10-2009 at 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I think it roots back to innate tribalism. As you point out, especially skin color. And let's not overlook the common heritage of at least initially coming from Britain. The US is becoming more and more a majority of minorities. White folks who cannot achieve some level of comfort with becoming a minority among minorities are going to act out. What worries me is that such acting out is likely to become more overt.

[Edited on 10-10-2009 by Bajahowodd]

Yes, the US republican party every day looks more and more like french conservatives such as Le Pen and Front National. How funny to think that the GOP is following the french.

[Edited on 10-10-2009 by mtgoat666]

David K - 10-10-2009 at 12:22 PM

You two are scary... No doubt who you voted for... and no doubt the outcome!

No matter, I wish you peace and hope you find that shangra-la where nothing matters the cost, that is, until the receivers out-number the givers.

Bajahowodd - 10-10-2009 at 12:31 PM

Last time I checked, we had a secret ballot in the US. That said, you might wish to check the election results. And you might want to do a little research into the dramatic shift in the distribution of wealth in the US over the past several years. Don't look now, but while Mexico is steadily growing a middle class, the middle class in the US continues to grow less affluent. Don't go blaming the poor for that. Blame the 1% who are obscenely wealthy and care not to share.

toneart - 10-10-2009 at 12:33 PM

The original poster, Wooosh, entitled his piece "Vigilantes on rise in Mexico". This is really a much different issue than Vigilantes in the United States; different motivations; different implementation. The main thing that has gotten our Nomad nationalistic vitriol in a hissy fit is the inference that it would negatively impact San Diego and other border cities.

But I have to fault the readers and responders too, because they have taken that which resonates with their respective ideologies and basically hijacked the topic. So the topic has become the Minuteman Vigilantes.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
All well and good if the so-called vigilantes reflect your own values and issues. But what happens when they don't?

Well, when they don't you don't like them or their motivations very well.

The vigilantes on the Mexican side are organized against Cartel Violence, incidents of human rights violations and the wider issue of violence against the citizenry. The vigilantes on the U.S. side of the border are concerned with poor Mexicans who cross the border illegally, looking for work. (Ironically, they are retreating en masse back home. Are the Minutemen still out there shaking the sagebrush?) The Minutemen wouldn't dare confront cartel drug smugglers. They don't have the firepower, the intelligence or the cajones to do so. Besides, that isn't their concern.

Being a Liberal, I don't have to like the concept of Minutemen, but I know they have a right to do what they are doing. They have a right to bear arms and they have a right to think the way they do. All the better if, in practice, they only serve as lookouts and then call into the Border Patrol when they have a sighting. As far as I know, they are pretty well disciplined and have not caused any illegal acts of violence that would surely trigger an international incident.

In conclusion, the Minutemen have my conditional consent. It is also comforting to know that they too are a minority. :smug:

DENNIS - 10-10-2009 at 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Blame the 1% who are obscenely wealthy and care not to share.

I know it would be nice but, do they have to? I don't think they do.

David K - 10-10-2009 at 12:41 PM

The top 1% pay nealy half the taxes!

Bajahowodd - 10-10-2009 at 12:44 PM

Dennis- No they don't. Not legally. But the ever growing disparity makes it a moral issue, and one that threatens the society we have known.

Tony- I note that you used a quote from me to make your point. Just want to go on record that my first post about vigilantes was generic, meant to apply to any sovereign nation. And it points back to the same issue. People will tolerate vigilantes, even if only tacitly, if they agree with the cause. The fact that Mexicans would tolerate or even openly support vigilantism versus the cartels, does not erase the fact that any form of vigilantism ultimately can weaken or undermine a stable democratic form of government.

Woooosh - 10-10-2009 at 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
The top 1% pay nealy half the taxes!

and still that isn't their fair share...

Bajahowodd - 10-10-2009 at 12:46 PM

DK- Why would you defend obscenely wealthy people? Do you truly believe that that some of that wealth was not appropriated from your pocket?

DENNIS - 10-10-2009 at 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
The top 1% pay nealy half the taxes!

Oh...I get it now. If they pay half the taxes and still manage to be as filthy rich as they are, maybe they should pay the other half and they would still be wealthy and everybody else would be better off as well.
I'll bet nobody ever thought of that before. :lol:

Bajahowodd - 10-10-2009 at 01:02 PM

I like it! Something akin to Sarah Silverman suggesting that the Pope should sell the Vatican and use the proceeds to eliminate world hunger.

mtgoat666 - 10-10-2009 at 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
The top 1% pay nealy half the taxes!

perhaps they should pay more.
progressive taxation is good for all....

It's been said there are only two certainties in life: death and taxes.

Now one of those certainties is under attack from an unlikely source: Warren Buffett. Wednesday, the billionaire founder of the investment firm Berkshire Hathaway Inc. went to Washington to ask Congress not to cut his taxes. Buffett says the super-rich should be taxed more, not less.

In particular Buffett urged the Senate Finance Committee not to repeal the estate tax. It is scheduled to come up for a vote, perhaps as soon as this week.

He told the committee that he recently compared how much he pays in taxes in terms of a percentage of his salary to what his employees pay.

Buffett says he pays 18 percent of his salary to the IRS while the rest of his staff pays nearly twice that — 33 percent, a lopsided equation that put Buffett in a Robin Hood frame of mind.

"Frankly, an economy where my receptionist pays a lot higher tax rate than, than I do does not strike me as a just economy," he told lawmakers.

"I see nothing wrong with those who have been blessed by this society to give a larger portion of their income to the society than somebody that's working very, very hard to make ends meet," Buffett said.

[Edited on 10-10-2009 by mtgoat666]

Bajahowodd - 10-10-2009 at 01:35 PM

Problem is that folks don't seem to care when somone else's ox is being gored. But, if no one is in charge, how do you protect your own ox. It's a slippery slope. I can't imagine sane and rational people who would not condemn criminal activity. But once the genie gets out of the bottle, how do you return it?

toneart - 10-10-2009 at 03:05 PM

Merriam-Webster definition:
"Main Entry: vig·i·lan·te
Function: noun
a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law are viewed as inadequate); broadly : a self-appointed doer of justice"

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd

Tony- I note that you used a quote from me to make your point. Just want to go on record that my first post about vigilantes was generic, meant to apply to any sovereign nation. And it points back to the same issue. People will tolerate vigilantes, even if only tacitly, if they agree with the cause. The fact that Mexicans would tolerate or even openly support vigilantism versus the cartels, does not erase the fact that any form of vigilantism ultimately can weaken or undermine a stable democratic form of government.

Howard,

I was agreeing with your statement in the quote. :yes:

In my paragraph following your quote, I used the word "you" as a general, meaning oneself. Also, I attempted to answer your question, about "what if vigilantism doesn't fit your ideology?"...(paraphrasing here). I didn't state it, but I was also answering for myself; I don't much like vigilantes because they do not fit my ideology. I do feel the Mexican vigilantes have a greater cause than do our Minutemen.

I have recently stopped trying to convince right wingers. It is hopeless. That is the way they are wired. What I have come to is, I really don't care what they think just so they don't act out on their manipulated mindset and hurt somebody, physically or emotionally. If they do I get like this>>>>> :fire:

I am definitely a Bleeding Heart, but I don't take any crap! :no:

k-rico - 10-10-2009 at 03:26 PM

I deleted my posts about the Minutemen, perhaps some of you read them, because they were off topic and have nothing to do about living in, or visiting Mexico. Before I made the posts I used Google search to read about them. I encourage all to do so.

Private citizens have no place enforcing the laws in any country except in immediate defense of person or property. Informing authorities about suspicious/illegal activities of others so the authorities can enforce the law is fine thing to do.

[Edited on 10-10-2009 by k-rico]

rocmoc - 10-11-2009 at 06:44 AM

I don't know where or how they can throw Nogales in this topic. I live very close to Nogales and we have not had the problems the other large border towns have, knock on wood. We rarely have seen even a minute man but we do have a LARGE Border Patrol presents. I always laugh when people group everyone and everything into their story to prove a point. At present life is good around here!

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico