BajaNomad - Flying your plane to Baja ... IN 1963!

Flying your plane to Baja ... IN 1963!

Pages: 1 2

David K - 11-10-2009 at 05:16 PM

From the November, 1963 issue of Sunset Magazine, was this 4 page guide for private pilots... Pre-Arnold Senterfitt!

This article is out of the box of Baja papers that belonged to Choral Pepper (published Desert Magazine, authored many books, etc.) until her death, in 2002. It was her wish that I have her photos and papers. She knew I would share it with you... See http://choralpepper.com Also see the Historic Intersts forum here on Nomad for Choral's writings...

In order to easily read the text, I have split each page into 2 to give a bigger look at the article... Enjoy!

[Edited on 11-11-2009 by David K]

Bajahowodd - 11-10-2009 at 05:19 PM

Wow! That's really great stuff, David. :bounce:

David K - 11-10-2009 at 05:22 PM

Thank you.

You are a tough crowd to please... sometimes!

I have much more... the big Baja article mentioned in the pilots' guide above, included

noproblemo2 - 11-10-2009 at 05:24 PM

Great Article, thanks.........

Bajahowodd - 11-10-2009 at 05:40 PM

Ah, David. We really do appreciate so much that you post. You are a treasure to this forum. You just need to understand that when you venture into political and present day cultural stuff, not only do few people have your back, but that you stand the chance of diminishing the value of your quality work.
Maybe you should get an anonymous alter-ego name to post if you feel the need to get involved in the political and social foray. I'm serious. You post some absolutely incredible stuff on here related to the history of Baja. I hope you continue to do so. And if you feel the need to chime in on political and social issues, just remember that you have opened the door to attack. As is true with anyone who does the same.

David K - 11-10-2009 at 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Ah, David. We really do appreciate so much that you post. You are a treasure to this forum. You just need to understand that when you venture into political and present day cultural stuff, not only do few people have your back, but that you stand the chance of diminishing the value of your quality work.
Maybe you should get an anonymous alter-ego name to post if you feel the need to get involved in the political and social foray. I'm serious. You post some absolutely incredible stuff on here related to the history of Baja. I hope you continue to do so. And if you feel the need to chime in on political and social issues, just remember that you have opened the door to attack. As is true with anyone who does the same.

Thanks for your thoughts...

Isn't kind of sad that those of us who are against big government must be silent (to be liked)... but the pro-socialism group can bring up their views without contest? Think about it... Only my conservative replies get some here steamed... as if I have no right to reply. Why do liberals get a free pass... is their argument so weak it requires such protection?

I don't know of anyplace I got 'political' that was not in response to something already posted here. Obviously, this is a forum for Baja talk and subjects... not for the end of freedom in America.

Can't we all just read each other's posts and not make it a personal attack? If you don't agree, say so, if you must... but stick with the facts and not personalities. Best to just ignore something you don't like then to spoil it for the rest... verdad?

Thank you... Now, how about the way it was in 1963 for travel to Baja, by air?

noproblemo2 - 11-10-2009 at 06:08 PM

David, I for one appreciate your posts as well as the knowledge and efforts you put into each. Thank You, S

David K - 11-10-2009 at 06:12 PM

Thanks for reading and your kind response... !

noproblemo2 - 11-10-2009 at 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Thanks for reading and your kind response... !

You're Welcome.... :yes:

bonanza bucko - 11-10-2009 at 08:38 PM

David:
Keep it up!! Jefferson said a couple of things that fit here: 1.) "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." ....and 2.)" When the people fear government there is tyranny. When government fears the people there is liberty."

There are always....and always!....people who will counsel you to remain silent and to hold you opinion and reason. They are among those who are willing and anxious to trade security for liberty (as Franklin warned us against)......to trade peace, as defined by them, for someones else's security. They are the current pervaders of "political correctness"...so called. They love to set the agenda for others and they are always very liberal with other people's money.

The USA is faced now with a war between those of us who learned young and still remember what has made America unique in all of history and those who want comfort above all and who are the helpers of the bunch that has plotted and planned to "fundamentally change America." You know their names. So do the comfort seekers.....they simply would like to look the other way....not to offend...to be PC!

What do you think Jefferson would say about our current affairs? When we won our freedom the numbers were about as they are now: 33% were royalists and like King George; 33% didn't give a damn and were busy "minding their own business" and 33% were wiling to risk their "Lives and sacred honor" to achieve the liberty that we have enjoyed.

The guy who wants you to be PC and stay quiet obviously fits above.

Individual liberty!....Individual liberty....not "collective" well being....is based first on the freedom and the guts to say what needs to be said. And there is a lot that needs to be said now....to awaken America to our uniqueness in the history of the world....and to call alarm at the drive to destroy that uniqueness by lies and plots by "leaders"....and by the silence of those who love "peace and quiet."
Hang in there....keep it up!

bonanza bucko - 11-10-2009 at 09:13 PM

David:
And there is more: I have been a member of The Baja Bush Pilots for about 40 years and remember Arnold Senterfitt very well...He lived in Vista when he wasn't in Baja. I have every one of his Baja books in my hangar where I can read them while I plan my next...and frequent... flight to Baja. I have landed on a whole bunch of the air strips in his books. My airplane has been in Mexican airspace so much I almost don't have to steer it there.

But....the key here is for people look down from the airplane...or the border...and to wonder why Mexico has been so poor and why we have not been....they have millions of hard working, religious, honest, good people. They have more warm water ports...and beaches...than just about any other nation on earth. They have natural resources that rival any in the world. They should be prosperous beyond their dreams. What's the problem?

Individual liberty!...as codified in their laws. They have the "French legal system" in which people are guilty until proven innocent...among other ills....some of which fall heavily under Jefferson's words about the people fearing the government and not the other way around....that fall heavily on us too!!...if we don't wake up.

All you have to do is drive down Mex One or Mex five into Baja to see what it would take to ignite a roaring economy....fix the road, damnit......you can't have commerce without transportation. Further, their legal system and leaders have not striven to do the things that our liberty made them do since the industrial revolution...build roads, sewers, clean water, telephone systems, power systems and capitalistic distribution of products and services.

The telephone is just one example of what happened here when "the government feared the people" (Jefferson). The government promoted the building of the telephone system. The idea in 1880 was that the phone needed to be deployed "universally" and at a price in its simplest form that all could afford....to call he cops and the doctor locally for free.

To do that the regulations required excess charges on such "luxuries" as long distance and about double the local rate on business phones where the cost could be passed on to customers. The added revenue from these regulations, among many others, subsidized the almost free local service that built commerce, public safety and health. If Mexico had that they would be rich!

Here are a couple of numbers to demonstrate the above: Before ATT was broken up the cost to provide a local telephone was about $28 per month. The "rate" was about $3 per month... the subsidy covered the difference to promote local commerce, health and safety. The plan was pretty much the same for water, sewers, electricity and roads. We are rich because of our liberty and laws!....not because we have plundered the rest of the world as blatted loudly by the left.....and as ignored by those who flunked history and love comfort too much.

We have taught our children, too often, to hate our riches and to see them as ill gained. A big part of the reason for that is that their teachers don't know much about the history above......We have let them get by with ignorance of the very things that make them rich and free.

Our economy is on the rocks in large part because hardly anyone knows what "the time value of money" is....or what their tax rate is....it's hard to find a teacher who can explain "the net present value of future cash flows" or how an "internal rate of return" works and is important to managing a household budget.

I know exactly how to lower taxes...require everyone to write a check for them once a month.....Washington DC would be burnt to the ground by us in about 60 days if they didn't change.

"We have seen the enemy and he is us!" (Pogo)

djh - 11-10-2009 at 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

David,

I also appreciate the article and photos, and have mentioned several times before how I appreciate your help to other Nomads (including me on occasion.)

RE: Your comments (quoted above). I generally mis-trust all governments (and religeons, for that matter). I also refuse to let political parties, or hacks, or talking heads tell me what or how to think.... and I detest the current state of "NEWS" which is often mouthpiece for agenda, rather than unbiased reporting of facts.

I especially resent what Bush did to true conservativism.... He was NOT a conservative, and he spent like a drunken sailor. He spent SEVERAL future generations' income to bailout the rich.... In my mind Ex. Pres. GW Bush "Socialized" the debts of the ultra rich. Profit at the top corporate and Wall Street was always the sacred cow to not touch, not regulate. . . etc. But their recklessness and consequential debt of course had to be "socialized".

So.... if you're going to repeat the latest mantra of some of those talking heads (Fox News, Rush, and the lot...) which is "Socialism, Socialist Totalitarianism" etc., or as you called it "Pro Socialism Group" . . . whatever or whomever that is ~ I respectfull ask . . . please include Ex. Pres. GWB and Company in that group.

For the record, I don't like Pres. Obama's spending policies either....!

BTW. . . I believe that through respectful discourse and debate, a group of intelligent people with different views and opinions form better policies and practices than a bunch of monoculture, monopolitical, cookie cutter sheep.

And . . . yes, we'd all do better to avoid the name calling and personal attacks and broad, shortsighted labels....

Thanks again for the photos and article.

"Choral Pepper (published Desert Magazine, authored many books, etc.) until her death, in 2002. It was her wish that I have her photos and papers. She knew I would share it with you..."

She did well to entrust you with her photos and papers... :-).

Best.
djh

Carlos Fiesta - 11-10-2009 at 11:38 PM

David;

Thanks for the unique photo and perspective of a by-gone Baja era. Sometimes we forget how difficult it used to be to reach most parts of Baja. I was just reading an article about the original (pre-Transpeninsular Highway) Hotel Palmilla and that most of the guests arrived by small planes and landed at the old airstrip there. The drive down option did not exist. Same thing with the old Hacianda and the airstrip/salt flat where the marina now sits. Cool stuff!

And thanks for all you do to share your unique information about Baja with all of us!

Carlos

great David!

steekers - 11-10-2009 at 11:38 PM

thanks David. Ah, the good old days...no EAPIS crap to contend with.

Lets get back to the topic folks and not butcher the central message. Take the political part out and post a separate thread.

David K - 11-11-2009 at 06:45 AM

Thanks guys... (and djh, yes... you are correct).

capt. mike - 11-11-2009 at 08:52 AM

DK - that was the best post you have done this year!
thx a bunch - i echo Bruce's comments.

gets my juices stirring to fire up and drink some mexican avgas.... :spingrin:

LancairDriver - 11-11-2009 at 09:33 AM

Thanks for a great post DK. Very interesting. I concur with your political commentary also. Keep it coming!

Skeet/Loreto - 11-11-2009 at 09:52 AM

Thanks David Again!!

Buck, I too have flown many hours in Baja , also met and talked to Arnold from 1968 onward. Even think it was you I met one time at Sant Innez when you were picking up wter for the Beach at Gonzaga.

Your words are very well done and I agree whole heartley and think that if all the good thinking people with the Baptist, Methodist, Momorns, Cathloc, and various religious groups get together they can throw some of those worthless Bums in Washington out and start over.

Now is the time for us old Farts to Start Fighting.

dcmeigs - 11-11-2009 at 09:54 AM

What a great article on Baja flying.

Airplane, check; time machine, check; ready to go!

Thanks for the post Dave.

David K - 11-11-2009 at 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bonanza bucko
David:
And there is more: I have been a member of The Baja Bush Pilots for about 40 years and remember Arnold Senterfitt very well...He lived in Vista when he wasn't in Baja. I have every one of his Baja books in my hangar where I can read them while I plan my next...and frequent... flight to Baja. I have landed on a whole bunch of the air strips in his books. My airplane has been in Mexican airspace so much I almost don't have to steer it there....

I used to live up at Lake Wohlford (Escondido) and I heard Arnold used to keep his plane up there. A friend just got his pilot's license and we walked up to that mountain top runway with my measuring wheel (used for irrigation designs)... As I was walking along mesuring the runway, a pilot in one of the hangers shouted out "Arnold says it's 1500 feet" I knew who he meant, and I had to laugh as I explained to my friend why.

Pilots used to practice on that runway, which was a lot like an aircraft carrier, with drop offs on each end!

[Edited on 11-11-2009 by David K]

books 026.jpg - 40kB

oldjack - 11-11-2009 at 10:36 AM

Thanks for all the history and travel info... it makes my interest in Baja that much more interesting... just an observation... did you happen to notice how "different" the folks dressed while traveling back then?? it is not just the style but the effort people made.. skirts/blouses/ties... how many of of us still have ties or would even consider dressing up for travel...

bonanza bucko - 11-11-2009 at 11:20 AM

David:
I heard that Arnold kept his airplane there but I never saw it there.....Lake Wohlford is indeed an "aircraft carrier" approach and it is best not to roll out too far....you go off the end of the mountain.

It's great practice for Baja though. In Baja runways are almost always not into the wind...along a beach where the wind blows off the water....and they are almost always rough and rougher...even the paved ones are full of holes and bumps....and some are even hard to see from the air...or anywhere. Others, like ours at Alfonsina's, can't be found at all when the moon is new or full....under water!

The term "Bush Pilot" really fits in Baja. A pilot needs to know how to navigate without the help of the FAA and electronics (not hard...keep your nose brown and your wingtips blue), how to stretch fuel, see the wind and WX and how to make friends in far away and different places. But....for all those "problems" you get mostly beautiful WX, nobody to hassle you if you get a case of "buzitis" or land somewhere some bureaucrat has not decreed an airport. Baja might be the last free country on earth.

Barry A. - 11-11-2009 at 11:20 AM

Bonanza Bucko---------I, for one, second everything you say here, and thanks for vocalizing it.

David-------you know how much I appreciate everything you post, and I consider you the most valuable resource on the board (and there are many others, too).

Thanks to both of you.

Barry

David K - 11-11-2009 at 11:45 AM

Very kind... thank you!

you mean like this??

capt. mike - 11-11-2009 at 02:07 PM

"did you happen to notice how "different" the folks dressed while traveling back then?? it is not just the style but the effort people made.. skirts/blouses/ties... how many of of us still have ties or would even consider dressing up for travel... "

i'd dress up too if i could dress her down..... :bounce:

That Munoz was a class act.

pic_17 munoz.jpg - 37kB

mtgoat666 - 11-11-2009 at 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Isn't kind of sad that those of us who are against big government must be silent (to be liked)... but the pro-socialism group can bring up their views without contest? Think about it... Only my conservative replies get some here steamed... as if I have no right to reply. Why do liberals get a free pass... is their argument so weak it requires such protection?

I don't know of anyplace I got 'political' that was not in response to something already posted here.

DK: there you go again :lol:

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

mtgoat666 - 11-11-2009 at 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bonanza bucko
They have the "French legal system" in which people are guilty until proven innocent...among other ills....some of which fall heavily under Jefferson's words about the people fearing the government and not the other way around....that fall heavily on us too!!...if we don't wake up.

bucky:
you confuse napoleonic code with France's current code.

you also are unaware that greatest recent miscarriage of justice is US practice in Guantanomo of presuming all guilty until proven innocent, then denying people their day in court.

[Edited on 11-11-2009 by mtgoat666]

bajaguy - 11-11-2009 at 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

...........you also are unaware that greatest recent miscarriage of justice is US practice in Guantanomo of presuming all guilty until proven innocent, then denying people their day in court...........

[Edited on 11-11-2009 by mtgoat666]

Your opinion.....

On the other hand, I would rather have them locked up in GITMO than running around killing people..........

........Oh, and save your cyber breath, I don't need a reply, especially today.

mtgoat666 - 11-11-2009 at 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
How many GITMO terrorists have been let free and gone on to kill more?

how many prisoners in gitmo are terrorists? maybe 10%?

dk: i understand that you don't trust govt at all, so how can it be that you trust govt imprisoned the right people in gitmo? unlike US military, i adhere to our legal principles and assume that all are innocent until proven guilty, and a govt/military that refuses to reveal evidence and hold trials is not a govt to be proud of.

lux sit!

yes we can!

[Edited on 11-11-2009 by mtgoat666]

capt. mike - 11-11-2009 at 04:17 PM

good citizens have/enjoy rights.
military combatants get treatment per Geneva.
murdering terrorists AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT SAME cannot be classified according to any civilized rules of behavior and hence deserve ZERO consideration or consolation.

bonanza bucko - 11-11-2009 at 05:01 PM

How *&^%ing stupid can MTGoat et al get!? The Constitution of the United States of America does NOT apply to ANYONE but a citizen of the USA!

Those who think we should provide lawyers and all the protections of the Constitution to these people, so called, need to be locked up with them for being terminally dumb.

Bajahowodd - 11-11-2009 at 05:17 PM

David. David. David. Just look at what has happened. Can't you see what I was talking about? You started this thread with a wonderful post. And it went to Hades with political wrangling. OK if you don't want to get a different ID for your political posts. I just hope that you can see that just in this case, injecting political commentary into a historic post just ruins it. And just for the record, my initial post took no polticial position, other than to remind you that your great contributions here tend to become diminished when irrelevant political references are posted. Think about it.

bajamigo - 11-11-2009 at 05:20 PM

Can someone direct me to the post about flying to Baja in 1963? Rush wannabes need not apply.

bonanza bucko - 11-11-2009 at 05:24 PM

Bajahowoddd and others are all nice guys...I'm sure. But their niceness and comfort does not overcome the great big truth of what Jefferson said, "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."......like here!

The USA is in trouble and no amount of bad mouthing those who point to that trouble with alarm in any forum can erase it.

It would be nice, peaceful and very comfortable not to have this discussion here or anywhere else. But them days are gone for a while...maybe forever.

bajamigo - 11-11-2009 at 05:27 PM

So every post is fair game for political huckstering?

mtgoat666 - 11-11-2009 at 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
A government that governs least, governs best. Get the government out of the way of a free people and watch them thrive and prosper!

I am trying to think of examples of governments that govern least. The governments that come to mind are failed states with no government: afganistan, somalia, etc., where govt governs least. When the US removed the govt from Iraq, I seem to recall that the country was looted and vandalized over nite. Getting rid of govt is not the solution to your oppressed condition, DK.
The countries with highest standards of living and most stable economies that have produced greatest capitalist succcess seem to be countries with large governments: US, Japan, UK, Germany, France, Saudi, etc., etc.
Successful countries have the economic means to implement social programs, and I think it is great that most successful countries have always implemennted social programs upon achieving success.
The only examples of economic power house countries that have not implemented social programs are old states of Europe and Asia, and they all fell in revolution after the rich neglected the masses. Most recently, Russia was about to take off as an economic power house, but lack of government resulted in organized crime taking over the country. How about Nigeria, they are making tons of monney there, but the minimal govt you so love is doing nothing but looting the wealth.
DK: if you want least governmment, why don't you move to somalia or tribal area of afghanistan/pakistan where all government is local :lol:

mtgoat666 - 11-11-2009 at 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Can you name any non-military government program that has been successful and thus terminated? No, they are inefficient and never end...

DK: get a grip, old man! There are many successful government programs that have ended. Perhaps you were thinking that governmment agencies should be terminated? For example, you are silly to think that creation of the EPA would result in a forever cleaner land and result in no further need for EPA, and eventual shut down of agency.

One of my favorite successful govt programs was the program to put man on the moon. DK: that program is over now. Now the responsible agency is untertaking new programs, and I dig every one of them, the programs generate fascinating scientific results and technologies.

One of my other fav programs was WPA. Lots of great art and public facilities were created by that former program.

Yes we can!

Skeet/Loreto - 11-11-2009 at 05:53 PM

Goat; You are doing everything as usual, trying to be hatefull and negative to discredit us Americans.

Please go somewhere else , your kind are not wanted in a Country make up of many peop[le with morals.!

Yes look at France {Saved by American Lives} look at Germany {Saved by American Lives} and many More.

On this Veterans day of 2009 I beleive you are way pout of Line and should have your SORRY ASS kicked out of this Great Country so fast iyou would never know it.

Your are a TURD, dispicip[le human being that should never be allowed on this board again, But It is a Free Country and you do not deserve it at All?!!!!

Skeet-- Koren Veteran and Proud to be a Free American .

DENNIS - 11-11-2009 at 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
look at Germany {Saved by American Lives}

Umm.....uh........I'm speechless.

mtgoat666 - 11-11-2009 at 06:02 PM

Skeet,
Take your meds. Where was I criticising the precious vets?? criticism of US policy is not criticism of GI Joe or Jane. people who remain silent when they see misjustices of their government are no better than texans :lol:

[Edited on 11-12-2009 by mtgoat666]

DENNIS - 11-11-2009 at 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
people who remain silent when they see misjustices of their government are no better than texans :lol:

oohhhhhhh...you're gonna get it now. :wow:

k-rico - 11-11-2009 at 06:13 PM

You guys need to go to off-topic, really, it would be fun. I want to play but not here.

Come on DK, make a political statement in off-topic, I dare ya.

[Edited on 11-12-2009 by k-rico]

DENNIS - 11-11-2009 at 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
You guys need to go to off-topic, really, it would be fun. I want to play but not here.

I'm just a spectator trying to recall all those segments of Combat when we were saving Germany. :lol:

Anyway, Scooter is going to be along shortly and tear Goat a new one and I don't want to miss it. :lol:

k-rico - 11-11-2009 at 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Can you name any non-military government program that has been successful and thus terminated? No, they are inefficient and never end...

Interstate highway system.

National Park System

National Wilderness Preserves

Hoover Dam

Panama Canal

State University Systems

Public Education (that's socialism ya know, why should I pay to educate your snot nosed, beer swilling brat?)

just to name a few

[Edited on 11-12-2009 by k-rico]

mtgoat666 - 11-11-2009 at 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Can you name any non-military government program that has been successful and thus terminated? No, they are inefficient and never end...

Interstate highway system.

National Park System

National Wilderness Preserves

Hoover Dam

Panama Canal

State University Systems

Public Education

just to name a few

well, it is vets day, so how about the VA under bush II administration (thank god for obama rightint that listing ship)

how about the lewis and clark expedition?

and JW powell's expeditions?

how about the national weather sservice??

how about FEMA under brownie? :lol:

what about the house unamerican activities committee? :lol:

mx missile system?? :lol:

the bush adminsistration?? :lol:

k-rico - 11-11-2009 at 06:38 PM

And what about those private enterprises

ENRON

Bear Stearns

Lehman Bros

AIG

General Motors

etc.

Wow, efficiency at its best.

norte - 11-11-2009 at 06:39 PM

David doesn't have a problem with those services HE uses. Only the ones other people use. HEY DK who built the internet structure?

mtgoat666 - 11-11-2009 at 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by norte
who built the internet structure?

everybody knows that: Al Gore!!

k-rico - 11-11-2009 at 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by norte
who built the internet structure?

everybody knows that: Al Gore!!

Good old Al, top of his class at Yale, 8 years in the House, 8 years in the Senate, 8 years as VP. All elected by The People. What a terrible American!

[Edited on 11-12-2009 by k-rico]

Bajahowodd - 11-11-2009 at 06:59 PM

Whoo hoo!

Mexitron - 11-11-2009 at 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
Skeet,
Take your meds. Where was I criticising the precious vets?? criticism of US policy is not criticism of GI Joe or Jane. people who remain silent when they see misjustices of their government are no better than texans :lol:

[Edited on 11-12-2009 by mtgoat666]

If you knew a little of the history of Texas you probably wouldn't be saying that, despite it being in the south during the Civil War...I don't say that as a Texan but just as a visitor who has been here a few years.

Mexitron - 11-11-2009 at 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto

Your words are very well done and I agree whole heartley and think that if all the good thinking people with the Baptist, Methodist, Momorns, Cathloc, and various religious groups get together they can throw some of those worthless Bums in Washington out and start over.

Oh yah, like they did in Iran........

Barry A. - 11-11-2009 at 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
look at Germany {Saved by American Lives}

Umm.....uh........I'm speechless.

The Marshall plan---------saved Germany for sure.

Barry

airmech - 11-11-2009 at 08:43 PM

I was gonna post sumthin about Arnold and the good old days but I'll pass for now.

DENNIS - 11-11-2009 at 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

The Marshall plan---------saved Germany for sure.

Barry

OK, Barry...Skeet owes you one for the kind hearted bail-out. :lol:

Barry A. - 11-11-2009 at 11:16 PM

-------just trying to be helpful, Dennis. :spingrin:

Barry

Skeet/Loreto - 11-12-2009 at 07:25 AM

David:
Do appreciate all your good words and knowledge of Baja!
I took Arnolds first Airport Guiode and listed all of the Strips i had flown into. The Shortest was Pulpito, the very worst I think was the small airport up aganist the Hill at Santa Roslilla.

I think back on all the many good people I met when I would land at one of the strips..I think about 2 Crippled Children, that I made a Telphone call for and a couple of Flying Shriners Brothers cmae down and flew them to the Hospital in Houston.

I remember all the good Smartian trips make by members of the Baja Bush Pilots and the great pilots of the Serinadad at Mulege.

Great memories of Senora Josephina of Santa Innez when I first met her she gave me 2 guys, gasoling, and a truck as I had to make a low Fuel landing at Lake Chapala..

Keep up the good work for Baja

Skeet/loreto

DENNIS - 11-12-2009 at 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

... Let's get back to Flying Baja stories...

I surrender to the wisdom and patriotic facts posted by k-rico, mtgoat666, norte, all Nomad libs and Al Gore (who we all know invented the Internet)! You guys are right... I guess America does suck and I too will travel the world and apologize for our imperialism... :rolleyes:

Bring on the end to the greatest health care the world has ever known and make it just like what they have in England or Botswana. It isn't fair that the rest of the world is sick, waiting months for care while we can get well so fast! :smug:

All of that in the same post. That's funny, David. Really is. :lol:

go for it Airmech

capt. mike - 11-12-2009 at 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by airmech
I was gonna post sumthin about Arnold and the good old days but I'll pass for now.

i for one am interested in the old days of BBP and Arnold's helm. i didn't get on board till about 1978.
passing Playa Frambes enroute to Lopez Mateos clinic circa 2005

PlayaFrambes3 (Small) (Custom).jpg - 41kB

PlayaFrambes3 (Small) (Custom).jpg - 41kB

DENNIS - 11-12-2009 at 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Don't you understand the humor here Dennis? :light:

I'll wait till beer time then I'll go back and look at it. Too early right now to be breaking codes.
Besides, the mere mention of Skeet is all the humor one should be asked to endure at one time. He's the cartoon between the movies. [ that reference will set your calendar back a few years ]

Barry A. - 11-12-2009 at 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Okay, but I really thought beer time for you started at sunrise! (It's beer-thirty somewhere right now, afterall)

Nomad should be for fun and education... Heck, I learned that a government PROJECT (like Hoover Dam, the moon mission, etc.) was actually a PROGRAM (like social security, medicare, postal service)!

And isn't AM-TRAK one of those really successful govt. programs too??? We all know how "successful" AMTRAK is----------- :rolleyes:

Admit it folks, government is one huge committee of bureaucrats, and almost nothing ever gets done correctly by a "committee"----just too many conflicting ideas---------education in this country is another example-----fouled up by to much "input" from bureaucrats and politicians.

Somebody mentioned the Natl. Park Service-----from personal experience I can tell you that organization could waste so much tax payer money, and make so many nutty decisions it was scary-------to this day they NEVER put enough money aside to maintain what they already have-----they only know how to plan, plan, plan, and then build, build, build with no thought to maintenance when they are GIVEN more money--------the NPS idea is great, but the execution is soooooo wasteful. There were exceptions, but not many----too many decisions makers---a committee----a govt. run organization.

Now back to airplanes---------If you heard the radio communications between Sully and the govt. controller guys you know what I mean----Sully ignorred them all and did what he KNEW was right-----put the plane in the Hudson. Thank God for folks like Sully who can make instant decisions based on experience, no matter what "others" are saying. Yes, the govt. controllers meant well, tried to help, but they did not understand, and that's the point.

God help us if the Govt. gets control over 1/6th of the National Economy-------health care. They don't have a clue how to run it----no, I correct that----they have so many ideas that gridlock, or worse, will follow. :no:

I loved it when you could taxi your plane right up to your door at Papa Diaz's place in BOLA------them wer the days!!! :spingrin:

Barry

Airplanes????

bajaguy - 11-12-2009 at 11:02 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UieFk6yq74w

norte - 11-12-2009 at 11:19 AM

And prey tell wise Barry. Who would do the programs, ehrrr projects if the government did not. or are you saying they shouldn't be done at all. Maybe the highway system should be given to DK to be run as a private enterprise

or DKs monitoring the sky

edited to keep with the post

[Edited on 11-12-2009 by norte]

bonanzapilot - 11-12-2009 at 11:25 AM

My first flight to Baja was in 1965.. in a near-new Cherokee 235. My old friend and flight instructor, Dick Bridgeford, had blazed the trail down there by convincing Papa Diaz to bring in some 50 gal barrels of Avgas into Bahia De Los Angeles. So there we would stop...out came the chamois into a funnel where the gas was hand pumped into your tanks.. to absorb the water and rust flakes! If you stopped there early enough, you could book a room at the Diaz resort...first come, first served... if not, then you could still pay the price and sleep on the porch outside of the rooms, but the sleeping was not the goal...great cold cervesas and those famous fried turtle steaks! Seven different flavors and textures from the same turtle!
Early flights out went on south to the brand new Punta Chivato.. we have stayed there before the roof was installed on the rear units. We cleaned out the construction debris, hung a sheet in the window opening, and slept on a mattress on the floor. (The next day, they charged some bloke for this make-shift room!) Great old days in Baja... when you could go out fishing at 7:00, be back by 9:00 am, to spend the rest of the day around the pool bragging about the great fishing...socializing with Hollywood movie producers doing the same thing... later that night, send the waiter around to your friend's table with some of your fresh caught fish! So, Thank you Dick Bridgeford... Arnold Senterfitt... Rancho Buena Vista...
Punta Chivato... Mulege's two nice hotels with airstrips...and the many great people who "roughed it" to make the Baja experience so special.

David K - 11-12-2009 at 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bonanzapilot
My first flight to Baja was in 1965.. in a near-new Cherokee 235. My old friend and flight instructor, Dick Bridgeford, had blazed the trail down there by convincing Papa Diaz to bring in some 50 gal barrels of Avgas into Bahia De Los Angeles. So there we would stop...out came the chamois into a funnel where the gas was hand pumped into your tanks.. to absorb the water and rust flakes! If you stopped there early enough, you could book a room at the Diaz resort...first come, first served... if not, then you could still pay the price and sleep on the porch outside of the rooms, but the sleeping was not the goal...great cold cervesas and those famous fried turtle steaks! Seven different flavors and textures from the same turtle!
Early flights out went on south to the brand new Punta Chivato.. we have stayed there before the roof was installed on the rear units. We cleaned out the construction debris, hung a sheet in the window opening, and slept on a mattress on the floor. (The next day, they charged some bloke for this make-shift room!) Great old days in Baja... when you could go out fishing at 7:00, be back by 9:00 am, to spend the rest of the day around the pool bragging about the great fishing...socializing with Hollywood movie producers doing the same thing... later that night, send the waiter around to your friend's table with some of your fresh caught fish! So, Thank you Dick Bridgeford... Arnold Senterfitt... Rancho Buena Vista...
Punta Chivato... Mulege's two nice hotels with airstrips...and the many great people who "roughed it" to make the Baja experience so special.

Thank you!

Have you seen this web site with many old Baja flying photos at L.A. Bay etc.? http://www.bajadreams.com Larry was the corporate pilot for Mr. Taco Bell!

Larry flew into Oceanside back in 2002 (as did Capt. Mike) for Viva Baja III http://vivabaja.com/vivabaja3

[Edited on 11-12-2009 by David K]

mtgoat666 - 11-12-2009 at 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
And isn't AM-TRAK one of those really successful govt. programs too??? We all know how "successful" AMTRAK is----------- :rolleyes:

amtrak is great, have used it many times in midwest and east coast, and occasionally here in CA. it is especially good on east coast. barry, you just don't like rail because you don't use it? don't you live in bay area where you have great rail service?

i am all for our govt subsidizing mass transit. i am a tax and spend liberal, i like my govt to support mass transit, education, arts and health care.

yes we can!

k-rico - 11-12-2009 at 11:54 AM

Quote:

OK, so why don't you go over to off-topic, state what you think is wrong with social security, medicare, and the postal service and then offer fixes or alternatives that would provide the same services.

DENNIS - 11-12-2009 at 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
i am a tax and spend liberal,

That must mean you're very rich or don't have a pot to pee in. :lol:

k-rico - 11-12-2009 at 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Quote:

Government should only provide a service that private enterprise cannot. read the constitution... it is supposed to be the rule book for operating this country.

Like a minimum income and health care for people too old or sick to work? Or unable to find a job?

What about the public school system, would you get rid of that too?

mtgoat666 - 11-12-2009 at 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Quote:

Government should only provide a service that private enterprise cannot. read the constitution... it is supposed to be the rule book for operating this country.

Like a minimum income and health care for people too old or sick to work? Or unable to find a job?

What about the public school system, would you get rid of that too?

Rico,
Like all adolescents, DK read Ayn Rand in 10th grade, but unlike most adults DK never grew beyond his shool-boy infatuation with Ayn Rand-ism.

[Edited on 11-12-2009 by mtgoat666]

Skeet/Loreto - 11-12-2009 at 01:49 PM

First trip in Oct . 1967 stopping at San Fewlipe on the little strip by the Motel Fuel from a Barell and fish dinner from the Kitchen.
On to Pappa Diaz place where you pulled up to the door of his place for fuel out of a barrell.

Anybody remember the years the TRi-Pacer diged up. I have a photo and know it was there more than 13 years.

Then on to Loreto landing at the Sportsman strip after clearing off all the Donkeys or landing downtown where now sets a School. Those were the daysTaking my diving gear and landing at a little strip at Cabo Pulmo, going out and diving on the reef, taking photos with a Plastic encased Camera.

Flying over to abbrejoes and having the good people sell you a Biggg----- Lobster for $1.

Cessna 170B- Best Airplane i ever flew and owned.

Skeet

k-rico - 11-12-2009 at 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Quote:

Government should only provide a service that private enterprise cannot. read the constitution... it is supposed to be the rule book for operating this country.

Like a minimum income and health care for people too old or sick to work? Or unable to find a job?

What about the public school system, would you get rid of that too?

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
That might be the first thing... what a terrible terrible job the government has done with the children of this country... who don't even know who to read and write well; the locations of countries of the world; what being a good patriotic American means; what wars we fought in to free others; who our presidents were... It has been a huge failure.

Rico,
Like all adolescents, DK read Ayn Rand in 10th grade, but unlike most adults DK never grew beyond his shool-boy infatuation with Ayn Rand-ism.

[Edited on 11-12-2009 by mtgoat666]

Yeah, it appears hopeless. Getting rid of public education is very extreme, beyond all reason. But at least he's better defined where he's coming from.

I'll shrug it off.

[Edited on 11-12-2009 by k-rico]

Skeet/Loreto - 11-12-2009 at 03:58 PM

Very well said David, but you realise of course that your words and Thoughts are not understood by your crictics!
The hate and ill words that they spout come from their lack of Education and their contiuned use of DRUGS.

Sorry if my words before ruined your Post it started off good but VOMIT IS VOMIT!

capt. mike - 11-12-2009 at 04:12 PM

"Have you seen this web site with many old Baja flying photos at L.A. Bay etc.? http://www.bajadreams.com Larry was the corporate pilot for Mr. Taco Bell!"

Actually while Larry probably flew Bell around some, they were business partners and Larry had a nice stable of Taco bells before they sold to Pepsico. He has a great website by the way.
very much a classic American dream and success story.

Bajahowodd - 11-12-2009 at 04:21 PM

Hey, DK, Lou Dobbs just quit his job at CNN so he could work with you to fix this country. Yippee!

[Edited on 11-12-2009 by Bajahowodd]

David K - 11-12-2009 at 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
"Have you seen this web site with many old Baja flying photos at L.A. Bay etc.? http://www.bajadreams.com Larry was the corporate pilot for Mr. Taco Bell!"

Actually while Larry probably flew Bell around some, they were business partners and Larry had a nice stable of Taco bells before they sold to Pepsico. He has a great website by the way.
very much a classic American dream and success story.

Mike... scroll up to a post I made in this thread a few hours ago... (Larry's photo there) Are we just thinking the same here, or what? :lol:

norte - 11-12-2009 at 04:26 PM

You go DK, Bernard Lawrence "Bernie" Madoff must be your hero

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Yah, I am a product of public education... BUT, I had parents who taught me 'life', as well... Public schools in California where some of the best in the 1960's/ early 70's, however... then the feds got more involved and the PC bunch with ACLU backing is what really got it messed up.

I lived and went to school in another country (Australia) for half a year and traveled much around the world in my life and learned to appreciate America and what it means to be an American... I saw how much the world depends on our strength so that they may not fear tyranny, again.

I never read Ayn Rand, but a friend did (big time) who went from being a libertarian to a democrat... so maybe I am better off not reading her (it is a 'her', right?).

I come from a life raised by people-loving people, and hating oppression. I know from history (and present times) that people prosper most when they are free... When they prosper they help others through job creation, purchasing goods and services... free enterprise and capitalism is good for all people and the money that is created is real... not taken from others by force or threat and re-distributed. Play with socialism/ marxism as the gang in power now is (for their own greed and lust for power) and you HURT people and end the hope of the free world... AMERICA!

I am a consrvative because I believe and trust people to be free, to prosper and spend as they wish... the people choose what they want and create jobs as the needs are filled. Conservatism is a standard of laws and actions based on logic and results.

Liberalism is about ideas routed in emotion with 'feel-good' intent, but the results don't matter. Liberals don't have to take any stand, they just have to say 'they care'. In the end we see greed for power and a do-anything attitude to get re-elected and grow their power and control over others. Liberals actually believe the people are stupid and only they know what's best for everyone else.

Because I love and believe in people and not in big government programs, I am a conservative. You be what-ever you want... Just don't pretend to know me if we haven't met and spent some time in person. I have many democrat perhaps liberal friends, so politics is not my measuring stick for friendship. I don't try to convert people either... In person, its talk about Baja, irrigation, four-wheeling or whatever you want... OKAY?

LancairDriver - 11-12-2009 at 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Quote:

Government should only provide a service that private enterprise cannot. read the constitution... it is supposed to be the rule book for operating this country.

Like a minimum income and health care for people too old or sick to work? Or unable to find a job?

What about the public school system, would you get rid of that too?

It sure doesn't take an FBI profiler to separate the tax parasites from the tax producers here- or the ones who have never signed the front side of a paycheck. Anyway, how about returning to the original topic?

Bajahowodd - 11-12-2009 at 04:39 PM

Has anyone happened to notice that certain folks seem to think that the term "liberal" is a perjorative? Easy to use, but makes little sense.

fender - 11-12-2009 at 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
No, law breakers are not my hero... Despite what your liberal instructors told you... You can prosper legally in America and help others while you do it.

Wow I came here for baja info and get Faux 'News' (puke) talking bobbleheads!? sad

Bajahowodd - 11-12-2009 at 05:00 PM

Perhaps someone should go back to the begining of this post and see what the topic was. A wonderful post. Truly educational. But, the thread took on a life of its own with all kinds of political garbage. And, unfortunately, I worry that the fine fellow who started this thread, is incapable of understanding the difference between history and current political blather. They should be distinctly separated.

Barry A. - 11-12-2009 at 05:13 PM

Quote:

It appears to me that this is the Post that took the thread a-stray----------comments like that CANNOT be just left there------they demand a response, and good people responded. :yes:

Barry

Bajahowodd - 11-12-2009 at 05:38 PM

Maybe you don't get it. This thread should never have taken on a political tone. So, if you feel like defending the defenseless, so be it. Simply put, all that political back and forth crap dishonord the spirit of David's post.

Barry A. - 11-12-2009 at 05:47 PM

As David (and I) have said countless times, we DON'T make political statements on this board, we simply respond to others making what we feel are political statements. We both may occasionally screw up, but by and large we only respond. Tho the tone of your original comments impress me as cordial, they cannot be just "left out there" when we don't agree, it seems to me. So, if that statement means I "don't get it", then you are probably right------I don't.

But I DO appreciate most of your comments on Mexico in general, and Baja in particular. We all have our own points of view.

Barry

DENNIS - 11-12-2009 at 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
So, if that statement means I "don't get it", then you are probably right------I don't.

For some reason....I think you do. :yes:

Mexitron - 11-13-2009 at 05:36 AM

David--I don't understand your claiming that we have the best medical care in the world-----we may have the best care AVAILABLE, but only to those who can afford it( which is one reason why we are something like 40th in the world in longevity). Have you had any any medical claims recently and been able to experience the process? We have, and it is messed up! My wife was in an accident, not her fault, and she was basically okay except for some pain in her wrist and hand---the insurance company said to go to the doctor but no doctor would see her since it was an auto accident and the doctors are tired of being screwed over by the insurance companies (read:private free market insurance companies). So eventually she had to go to the emergency room and pay $1,500 for something that should have cost a couple hundred---the insurance company had to pay that extra---so where is the efficiency? Another example is all the folks who can't afford health care who end up clogging up the ERs for stuff that should be treated in a doctors office---and the taxpayers end up paying the tab for all those outrageously expensive ER visits---as long as we're paying for it I'd rather pay them to go see a doctor than the ER !
I'm all for free markets when they work to our advantage and in most industries they do (and you know I had my own company in CA for 20 years). Also, I worked for the city of Fort Worth for six months so brother I know how bad bureaucracies can be! But there has to a balance somehow---the idea of the government "running " a health care system isn't the best solution and probably won't happen but, as in the Netherlands, the government helping regulate the system of private insurers works well for the populace---prices are set for all medical services and since the insurers can't compete on price they compete on quality! :light:

Step off soap box...

Just had to chime in on this already hijacked thread---great article on flying David! Keep up the good work.

BajaGringo - 11-13-2009 at 06:38 AM

Was hoping to see a bunch of old Baja flying photos...

:rolleyes:

David K - 11-13-2009 at 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
Was hoping to see a bunch of old Baja flying photos...

:rolleyes:

Check out Page one of this thread to see the flying stuff!

Skeet/Loreto - 11-13-2009 at 08:25 AM

O. K. David!

This goes back a long way, I am still looking for the Photos.

Many years ago , before the road opened I received a Accident Claim for an Aircraft that had dinged up on landing at Punta Chavito.
Determined that it would have to be Hauled out, so elisted the help of a Salvage Guy, Vaughn Lamb of Oakland Ca and headed to Guyamus caight the Ferry to Sta Roslilla.

Arriving at Chivato after a very bad 18 mile trip on the roughtst road in Baja.

Took off the Wings and loaded everything on the trailer and took the plane back to Oakland for Repairs. Cost $5,000.

Inspecteded the old Hotel at Chivato which was in total dissray. Windows and doors offf, it was Trashed! later went back and saw it as it is today.
Sket

David K - 11-13-2009 at 08:34 AM

Thanks Skeet... Do you recall what year that was? The ferry to Santa Rosalia from Guaymas started running in 1972 when pavement north from La Paz reached Santa Rosalia.

We drove to Punta Chivato during our summer '73 trip and used the ferry to Guaymas to go home as the highway from Tijuana was still far from finished... and we were in a Ford station wagon!

bonanza bucko - 11-13-2009 at 08:42 AM

David:
Thanks for not giving up. You are a p******!

Some day somebody, in a non libhole university, is gonna write a PHd thesis on the causes of the difference between libs and conservatives....are they born that way or do they get programmed or both?

I suspect it's both because I am a graduate of Harvard...about as lib as you can get....and I know others in my boat who ain't libholes.....who read the Federalist Papers, Adam Smith, more Thomas Jefferson, Plato et al and etc......and learned from them....and remembered all these years later.

It also helps to have been required to make a living and raise a family without the "help" of the gummint or well heeled parents.
.....one seems to grow up some doing that.

Churchill said, (paraphrased) that If you aren't a liberal when you're young you don't have a heart and if you aren't a conservative when your old you don't have a brain.

Its' required nowadays to have both.

bonanza bucko - 11-13-2009 at 11:17 AM

DK:
I hate to rub some salt into some wounds but you gotta wonder at MtGoat666 who has been beating us up here. Most know that "666" is a symbol for the devil...as is a goat.

So, maybe, goat is getting his sophomoric and iconoclastic giggles by devilishly talking here.

....suspect we'll get upbraided for that too. :spingrin:

norte - 11-13-2009 at 11:27 AM

DK

Did you ever think that the local clinic just might be getting some of that government help? or you that blind to think that you never get any help

Barry A. - 11-13-2009 at 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by norte
DK

Did you ever think that the local clinic just might be getting some of that government help? or you that blind to think that you never get any help

Obviously I am not DK, but your premise here is wierd it seems to me! If the "service" is there and available, of course Conservatives would use it since they are forced to pay into it, along with everybody else------that is just good business. The point is that the Country (no Country) can afford all these "services", and basing our daily lives on these subsidies just results in more people expecting it, and therefore not providing it for themselves, a never ending cycle. I am against most subsidies, including the obscene subsidies to Corporations and Farming, but if the Govt. wants to give back some of the money they took, then of course I will be there to except it.

I DON'T except Social Security, tho--------as I don't need it and the program is bankrupt, and many people DO need it, but I don't like it, and the same principals outlined above apply to SS also. We simply cannot keep this trend up and expect to prosper as a Nation.

Barry

norte - 11-13-2009 at 12:22 PM

not weird just checking to see if people who make broad brush statements about the government being to big have really thought about the services they use or have used. and what it would be like if those services were never there or ceased to exist. can you imagine this great country if we allowed each individual to veto the programs (yes programs) that they did not like? Thank god that we are a democracy where the majority (of the voting public) still rules

mtgoat666 - 11-13-2009 at 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
We simply cannot keep this trend up and expect to prosper as a Nation.

chicken little,
the sky is not falling. a prosperous country can affford government social services. the tax burden in US is really not too bad, with creativity most people pay a reasonable tazx rate.
if you would like to live in a country with zero taxes and zero soicial programs, you are welcome to move to somalia -- tell me how it works out for you.

mtgoat666 - 11-13-2009 at 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by norte
not weird just checking to see if people who make broad brush statements about the government being to big have really thought about the services they use or have used. and what it would be like if those services were never there or ceased to exist. can you imagine this great country if we allowed each individual to veto the programs (yes programs) that they did not like? Thank god that we are a democracy where the majority (of the voting public) still rules

yes, the same people complaining about taxes funding social services have no problem with taxes funding largest/most expensive military complex ever in the world.
i like my govt services. i like the hwy system. i like public education. i lke the post office. i like the NEA. i like the FAA. i like the NPS and USFS. i like my local library. i like my local parks and beaches. i like the success of the CWA and CAA, and associated agencies. the list goes on and on. i think the tax rate is bearable, and i am happy to be taxed for the services i take advantage of.

Barry A. - 11-13-2009 at 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Apples and oranges!!!! I don't know anybody that is against the list of "services" you state here--------those are what most of us want from our Government, and more. It is the huge expensive social programs that many of us don't want from our Govt. because it is corrosive to society, and no Country can afford them in the long run---------.

Yes, the main function of the Govt. is to defend our Country, and it's interests----you got that right.

Barry

Packoderm - 11-13-2009 at 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
We simply cannot keep this trend up and expect to prosper as a Nation.

I would offer an even less challenging offer: I challenge anybody to find any other nation which does not offer the public option to health care, and then tell us if you could feasibly live there.

Here, I'll make it easy for you. Just choose any of the areas shaded in gray.

Barry A. - 11-13-2009 at 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Packoderm

I would offer an even less challenging offer: I challenge anybody to find any other nation which does not offer the public option to health care, and then tell us if you could feasibly live there.

Here, I'll make it easy for you. Just choose any of the areas shaded in gray.

I choose the USA----- up to now the most prosperous Nation on the planet, and the "standard" by which all other Nations are measured, and the magnet that draws more immigrants than any other Nation, I believe.

It may be that is about to change---------we will see.

Barry

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