BajaNomad - New rules for FM-2?

New rules for FM-2?

Hook - 11-13-2009 at 10:46 AM

Someone over here in the boating community just got back from the immigration office in Guaymas. He was there to renew his FM-3. The official he talked to pointed out that you DON'T HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE FM-3 PROCESS TO GET AN FM-2!!!! Basically he explained that FM-3s are now for long term tourists who are staying more than 180 days but the FM-2 is for residents and/or people working their way towards citizenship.

Anybody else heard anything about this???? Is this new or have a number of us been operating on the assumption that you must have an FM-3 for x number of years before you can qualify for an FM-2?

meme - 11-13-2009 at 11:27 AM

It has been my experience here in SF they cannot seem to make up their minds?

gnukid - 11-13-2009 at 11:54 AM

Yes its true generally. I just met with INM to ask and spoke to both the abogado and agent. I can not confirm if there is a required time period with fm-3 or not as there was before. But yes everyone should be on the fm-2 track who who wants to stay and with 2 years on FM-2 you can go permanent migratorio or naturalized using the DNN form. A FM-2 costs about 2600 a year versus 2200 for FM-3 and the book fee is about 400 pesos for fm-3 and 650 for fm-2. So you pay more up front but hopefully complete the process in a few years and never pay again.

Also, I asked about independent workers visa-they said that yes individuals can get a work visa without a sponsor company, they apply for persona fisica in the hacienda and begin their process as a permited worker with personal RFC # with hacienda. Your skill should be identified clearly as one skill and you should have a cetification and an apostile in order to start off on the right track with specific visa, such as gla s cutter or carpenter but not both.

Anyway, I have done this before as have others and it's a fairly clear process but as you can see by the above you are going to paying about $300 yr at the minimum and likely more as you earn more since you must pay taxes on income etc...

Sometimes appointments are required but generally you may visit the INM or Hacienda or call and get some answers to get started. I bet if you pursue it you could finish the entire process in about 1 week or maybe 2.

Hook - 11-13-2009 at 12:02 PM

gnukid, can you get an FM-2 lucrativo as you can with an FM-3? My wife works down here (yes, as an independent with no sponsorship) on an FM-3 lucrativo but we are wondering if there is an FM-2 equivalent.

Just wondering..........we will be going by INM next week.

gnukid - 11-13-2009 at 12:05 PM

Yes of course, and once FM-2 I seem to gather a little more wiggley room. The time requirement thing is not an issue unless you are trying to demonstrate and establish residency- it's just a guideline not a requirement for FM-2.

noproblemo2 - 11-13-2009 at 12:32 PM

I got this from the person we use for our.

YES, THE LAW IS CHANGE THIS YEAR BUT LET ME EXPLAIN.
THE CHANGE IS:
ONLY YOU NEED 3 YEARS WITH FM-3 AND YOU CAN START WITH FM-2. (IF YOU HAVE BANK TRUST)

k-rico - 11-13-2009 at 01:10 PM

gnukid,

Thanks for link in the other thread to

http://www.thepaperchase.com.mx/

I'm going to switch from FM-3 to FM-2 and may use their services.

http://www.thepaperchase.com.mx/services.php#Immigration

BTW, I'm reading a book by Peter Dale Scott, "The Road to 9/11". I thought of you while reading. You may like his books, if you haven't already read them.

Thanks again for the link.

DENNIS - 11-13-2009 at 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
But yes everyone should be on the fm-2 track who who wants to stay and with 2 years on FM-2 you can go permanent migratorio

How does that differ from Inmigrado?

Bob and Susan - 11-13-2009 at 01:17 PM

actually this is a couple of years old

there is no wait to get an FM2
you can go directly there

you can also get the work attachment with the FM2

the benifit is
after 5 years no more renewals

there is a limit how long you can be out of the country in the five years

it does cost a little more but after 5 years you'll be way better off

DENNIS - 11-13-2009 at 01:17 PM

Whatever else, I just paid $395 bucks for an agent to renew my FM2. I'll be glad when All this nonsense is behind me.

Bob and Susan - 11-13-2009 at 01:21 PM

i agree...

Hook - 11-13-2009 at 01:57 PM

Now, for where this is all leading..................

IF you get through the FM-2 process and achieve the exalted inmigrado status, has anyone ever been able to dissolve their trust and own their property free and clear?

Does anyone know anyone who has done this?

DENNIS - 11-13-2009 at 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
Now, for where this is all leading..................

IF you get through the FM-2 process and achieve the exalted inmigrado status, has anyone ever been able to dissolve their trust and own their property free and clear?

Does anyone know anyone who has done this?

No, Hook...Haven't heard but, it seems logical one could, for a price of course. Maybe you could just sell your house to yourself.

Bob and Susan - 11-13-2009 at 02:14 PM

cant do it

you're still a foreigner

DENNIS - 11-13-2009 at 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
cant do it

you're still a foreigner

Come to think of it, that's right. Can't vote either. I know that'll break your heart.

noproblemo2 - 11-13-2009 at 03:21 PM

For those with land leases, the wait is still the 5 years according to the guy we use anyway...

squid - 11-13-2009 at 07:31 PM

O.K., this is discussed over.. and over... and over again.
(but don't you worry, there are always some guys here who know everything better than the INM. Those i.e. who purchased land holding an FMT)
FM-T : You have no rights at all other than entering the country. You have to leave within 180 days. You are not allowed to sign contracts whats-o-ever !!!
Any contract you sign without an FM-3/2 is illegal and you might loose whatever you purchased on an FMT. Cars. Homes. Bankaccounts. everything. We had this discussion before.
FM-3 : you have very limited rights i.e. you can stay for one year. You can open a bankaccount. Sign legal and other contracts. etc. etc. Renewal before 12 month required.
FM-2 : after holding an FM-3 for 5 years you can apply ( ! - no guarante that you get it ) for an FM-2. If you 'own' land on a Fido (Banktrust) you can shorten that time by 2 years. Owning land free and clear on any FM is out of discussion. Mexico belongs to the Mexicans-and we want to keep it this way. Period

DENNIS - 11-13-2009 at 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by squid
Mexico belongs to the Mexicans-and we want to keep it this way. Period

Who's "we"?

Ricardo - 11-13-2009 at 08:03 PM

Just checking so are you saying all those Thousands of absentee landowners don't even own thier property even though it was signed at a consulate, and mexico city approved and signed all the title type documents.
plus they have been paying taxes and fees all along but haven't had the opportunity to go to mexico lately thus don't need a visa of any sort.
Rick

DENNIS - 11-13-2009 at 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ricardo
Just checking so are you saying all those Thousands of absentee landowners don't even own thier property even though it was signed at a consulate, and mexico city approved and signed all the title type documents.
plus they have been paying taxes and fees all along but haven't had the opportunity to go to mexico lately thus don't need a visa of any sort.
Rick

WOW....That was a mouthful, Rick. Can you break that down into small portions?

Ricardo - 11-13-2009 at 08:17 PM

Dennis yeah I just that was a bit of a ruuun-on sentence. My point was there are many people that live all over this planet that have purchased land in mexico. Trough consulates and lawyers etc but actually don't go to mexico very often thus they don't have or need a Visa be it a FM-T through To a FM 2 .Squid is suggesting that they don't have rights to ownership. yet the gov't of mexico approved all the steps and title was issued.
These same owners have paid taxes etc so how can it be that they don't own thier property.
Hope thats better.
Rick

Hook - 11-13-2009 at 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by squid
O.K., this is discussed over.. and over... and over again.
(but don't you worry, there are always some guys here who know everything better than the INM. Those i.e. who purchased land holding an FMT)
FM-T : You have no rights at all other than entering the country. You have to leave within 180 days. You are not allowed to sign contracts whats-o-ever !!!
Any contract you sign without an FM-3/2 is illegal and you might loose whatever you purchased on an FMT. Cars. Homes. Bankaccounts. everything. We had this discussion before.
FM-3 : you have very limited rights i.e. you can stay for one year. You can open a bankaccount. Sign legal and other contracts. etc. etc. Renewal before 12 month required.
FM-2 : after holding an FM-3 for 5 years you can apply ( ! - no guarante that you get it ) for an FM-2. If you 'own' land on a Fido (Banktrust) you can shorten that time by 2 years. Owning land free and clear on any FM is out of discussion. Mexico belongs to the Mexicans-and we want to keep it this way. Period

This just in................non-Mexicans own lots of Mexico free and clear. Just not along the coasts.

Oh, yeah. PERIOD! :rolleyes:

DENNIS - 11-13-2009 at 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ricardo
Squid is suggesting

Thanks Rick.
Without getting into the details which you're responding to, let me make a suggestion. Don't listen to that squid person. She has been the cause of nothing but trouble here and her opinions, such as her last one here, are usually caustic, antagonistic and xenophobic. She has earned the consideration to be ignored.
Her reaction to this, if she chooses to do that, will attest to what I say.
Thanks again for your response.

squid - 11-13-2009 at 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ricardo
Dennis yeah I just that was a bit of a ruuun-on sentence. My point was there are many people that live all over this planet that have purchased land in mexico. Trough consulates and lawyers etc but actually don't go to mexico very often thus they don't have or need a Visa be it a FM-T through To a FM 2 .Squid is suggesting that they don't have rights to ownership. yet the gov't of mexico approved all the steps and title was issued.
These same owners have paid taxes etc so how can it be that they don't own thier property.
Hope thats better.
Rick

Now comes Mr. " know it all" (like any time here when facts are facts.
Rick, name ONE landowner in Baja California Norte or Sur (and this is a Baja Forum, not a mainland forum out of the 50 Km zone where you can purchase land like you said) who purchased any land w/o any FM and got the title free and clear without any FM and Fido.
Just ONE !!!! to prove your big mouth post.
(Addendum: anybody who got the gutts can travel into Mexico without any FM > just don't get caught: its prison time or maybe a fat mordida might do the trick. But it is illegal anyway. Havin' any accident w/o FM??? Jailtime!

Ricardo - 11-13-2009 at 08:46 PM

Squid I wasn't being a big mouth post, But I would like to know the diffence, are you saying that if a person bought property with a Fido has paid taxes for years but hasn't been able to visit Mexico for a few years, Did all the paperwork legally through a consulate and notary etc has the papers all registered and approved etc, But as they haven't been in mexico to purchase a Visa FM of any sort then thier title / fido is no longer legal?
Thanks Rick

Ricardo - 11-13-2009 at 09:12 PM

Squid I'm sorry but I do seem to be confused, Lets try again I understand THe 50 KM zone and I understand The Fido. But whaT I don't understand is the need a FM3 to own land or holdings. can you own land etc with out a FM of any sort? as example what if you bought land in BAJA but did it through a Consulate , a Notary and a power of attourny, All legal, all signed in Lapaz, and Mexico City. If you don't go to BAJA very often can't you be a landowner? I think many people are
Thanks again Rick

squid - 11-13-2009 at 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ricardo
Squid I'm sorry but I do seem to be confused, Lets try again I understand THe 50 KM zone and I understand The Fido. But whaT I don't understand is the need a FM3 to own land or holdings. can you own land etc with out a FM of any sort? as example what if you bought land in BAJA but did it through a Consulate , a Notary and a power of attourny, All legal, all signed in Lapaz, and Mexico City. If you don't go to BAJA very often can't you be a landowner? I think many people are
Thanks again Rick

Rick, nothing to thank for in the first place.
Now, if you buy land in Baja through a lawfirm etc. etc. as you explained, I am not sure that that is legal w/o holding an FM-3/2. I doubt it. But money makes the world going around - and in Mexico mordida is doing any [well, most] tricks. But is it legal deal, even if you got all papers? I doubt it again. And it would be not the first case where a deal went trough but b/c of some "mordida tricks' the deal busted years later.
And don't you think that ALL Ambassy employees are honest and not taking mordida. Even in the U.S. money makes everything possible and puts a seal under a document.
What's defenately illegal: if you - the new landowner - are traveling to Baja w/o an FM-3/2.
ANY (private!) landowner must have an FM-3/2 > no exception. Corporations excluded of course. But you talked about "I know many folks owning land free and clear" So it was clear to me that you are talking about private individuals
So what do you need a piece of land for if you can't use it?
Well, let grow grass and weeds on it and sell it after some years making profit is certainly an option. Just owning it and let folks build a resort might be another option. But using it for yourself, maybe building a home on it?? Impossible.
Are the skies clear now?

schwlind - 11-14-2009 at 12:23 AM

I'm not trying to stir the pot, so please don't anyone jump on me... but what if you have a business FM3 (which you must have if you are a director/officer of a Mexican Corporation). I seem to recall that you cannot (easily) go to an FM2 (which is what I would like to do) to eventually obtain dual citizenship (US/Mexico)? My esposo has the rentista FM3, and was told that Immigration may allow me to apply for FM2 status if he obtains his FM2, but is there even such a thing as FM2 that would still allow you to conduct business in MX? Also, would it not be true that if you did finally become a Mexican citizen, you could own property in the Restricted Zone outright (even though it is my understanding that only natural born citizens of MX can ever vote)??? If this has been answered in the past, I apologize, but am still not clear on these issues.

[Edited on 11-14-2009 by schwlind]

k-rico - 11-14-2009 at 06:31 AM

The following was written by a Mexican lawyer in a private communication to me. It's about 5 years old.

http://www.maldonadomarkham.com/Tijuana-Attorney.htm

=============================
FM2 Rentista (Immigrant rentist)- When the immigrant plans to live off his own capital or the interest that it produces, coming from abroad or from investments in Mexico (approx. $19,500 verifiable yearly passive income)

FM2 Inversionistas (Immigrant investor)- For immigrants that have made an investment within Mexico. The investment must be of at least $161,000.

FM2 Profesional.- For immigrants that will engage in professional economic activities in Mexico.

FM2 Familiares (Immigrant Family member) � For immigrants that will be economic dependents of a Mexican national to whom they have close family relationship.

FM2 Asimilados (Assimilated Immigrant Family member) � For immigrants that have been at least two years legally in Mexico and have a close family relationship with a Mexican national.

FM3 Visitante Rentista (Rentist visitor visa)- When the foreign national plans to live temporarily in Mexico off his own capital or the interest that it produces, coming from abroad or from investments in Mexico (approx. $12,000 verifiable yearly passive income)

FM3 Visitante Inversionista (Investment visa) � For visitors that have made an investment within Mexico. The investment must be of at least $105,000 if made in a business or $161,000 if made in real estate.

FM3 Visitante Profesional (Professional worker visa) � For visitors that will engage in professional activities in Mexico.

FM3 Otros visitants (other visitors) � For visitors that are not described in other categories and have a family relationship with a Mexican national.
==============================

Squiddly, I think, but am not 100% sure, that there is land in BC along the road between Ensenada and San Felipe that is more than 100 km from the border and more than 50 km from either coast.

Any map experts around?

[Edited on 11-14-2009 by k-rico]

[Edited on 11-14-2009 by k-rico]

squid - 11-14-2009 at 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
The following was written by a Mexican lawyer in a private communication to me. It's about 5 years old.

http://www.maldonadomarkham.com/Tijuana-Attorney.htm

=============================
FM2 Rentista (Immigrant rentist)- When the immigrant plans to live off his own capital or the interest that it produces, coming from abroad or from investments in Mexico (approx. $19,500 verifiable yearly passive income)

FM2 Inversionistas (Immigrant investor)- For immigrants that have made an investment within Mexico. The investment must be of at least $161,000.

FM2 Profesional.- For immigrants that will engage in professional economic activities in Mexico.

FM2 Familiares (Immigrant Family member) � For immigrants that will be economic dependents of a Mexican national to whom they have close family relationship.

FM2 Asimilados (Assimilated Immigrant Family member) � For immigrants that have been at least two years legally in Mexico and have a close family relationship with a Mexican national.

FM3 Visitante Rentista (Rentist visitor visa)- When the foreign national plans to live temporarily in Mexico off his own capital or the interest that it produces, coming from abroad or from investments in Mexico (approx. $12,000 verifiable yearly passive income)

FM3 Visitante Inversionista (Investment visa) � For visitors that have made an investment within Mexico. The investment must be of at least $105,000 if made in a business or $161,000 if made in real estate.

FM3 Visitante Profesional (Professional worker visa) � For visitors that will engage in professional activities in Mexico.

FM3 Otros visitants (other visitors) � For visitors that are not described in other categories and have a family relationship with a Mexican national.
==============================

Squiddly, I think, but am not 100% sure, that there is land in BC along the road between Ensenada and San Felipe that is more than 100 km from the border and more than 50 km from either coast.

Any map experts around?

[Edited on 11-14-2009 by k-rico]

[Edited on 11-14-2009 by k-rico]

First of all::: Thanks for the exceptionally good info. That clears the skys. I did say it in other words but by far not so good as your post means not in such good details.
Again, Thanks

About the spot / land which is more than 50 Km from either side of the coastline in Baja. You are right about that.
I referred to that point in an earlier post in this thread. But, even though, ALL of Baja is considered within the 50Km zone.
There is another example of 'mas o menos' politics of Mexico.
The 50Km zone i.e. south of Guaymas is extended to more than 50kilometers from the border. That is done for tourists and permanents alike to make it easier to live and drive w/ their cars. Remember, you can not enter the mainland outside the 50Km zone with a car holding a Baja license plate. That license plate allows you ONLY to drive within the zone. Other you import that car permanently and getting a different plate.

twogringos - 11-14-2009 at 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
I can not confirm if there is a required time period with fm-3 or not as there was before. But yes everyone should be on the fm-2 track who who wants to stay and with 2 years on FM-2 you can go permanent migratorio or naturalized using the DNN form.

I can confirm that in La Paz, in 2009, you can get a FM-2 directly from a FMT and if you have a Fidecosimo. I can not find any collaboration that you can file for naturalization after only two years on the FM-2.

Tano - 11-14-2009 at 11:15 AM

What�s with all this equivocal information? It sounds like immigration officials take options written on pieces of paper out of hat. Isn�t there something in writing where all this is spelled out?

DENNIS - 11-14-2009 at 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tano
It sounds like immigration officials take options written on pieces of paper out of hat.

They do just that. Deal with the Ensenada office and you will soon see what I mean. If one could afford to get the ear of whoever they answer to, it probably still wouldn't matter. Arguing with these people is a losing proposition.

Tano - 11-14-2009 at 11:29 AM

What about arguing with the actual c�digo in your hands?

DENNIS - 11-14-2009 at 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tano
What about arguing with the actual c�digo in your hands?

That would be upstageing them. They really hate it when you do that.

Tano - 11-14-2009 at 11:33 AM

That sounds like chaos to me.

Did you say, �Kaos,� Max?

bajaguy - 11-14-2009 at 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tano
What about arguing with the actual c�digo in your hands?

That would REALLY make the Ensenada guy happy.....NOT

toneart - 11-14-2009 at 11:58 AM

You have to consider what is written law, and weigh that against the multitude of interpretations among the various immigrations district offices and the various Mexican Consulates in The United States. (Good luck with that!)

The best way is to do everything through your local immigration district office in Baja. They do operate differently from one another. Besides, they want absolute control. Our immigration office in Santa Rosalia tells us that we no longer have to wait to apply for an FM2 after holding an FM3 for five years. We can jump over the five year FM3 holding period (if you want to).

Regarding the ability to buy property with an FMT, I know people who have done it. There are many who are willing to take your money, and some have gotten Fideicomisos while only holding an FMT. Where you get into legal trouble is if there is some dispute regarding your land. You have NO rights and you will lose your property. That is validated by the fact that your are actually holding the property illegally. It just hasn't been enforced until a dispute arises. The same goes for insurance policies. If you have to collect on a claim, you can't do it without at least an FM3.

Do your homework diligently if you are buying property. Do your immigration business only with your local immigration district office. Think about this: They know everything about you. They know what you look like and where you live. They make regular sweeps throughout their region. You are far better off getting to know them and working with them. Respect their culture and "the way things are done". If your principles run counter to theirs, they are of no value in Mexico. You are a foreigner.

squid - 11-14-2009 at 11:59 AM

I would like to add something by trying to answer some of Schwlind's questions as good as I can.
First and foremost: I am NOT an expert in this issue. I (we) learned these issues b/c of a nightmare we went through w/ the INM (Immigration).
My hubby runs a business in the US and MX alike. In the beginning it was very unclear to us what to request , which Visa is needed. The INM does not give outstanding answers.
O.K., back again to k-rico's post and FM-3 Visitante Rentista. On that Visa you also can also live permanently in MX, not only temporarily.
AND, it remains the fact that every land or houseowner (house on leased land) has to hold at least an FM-3. This was my concern about not having an FM-3/2 as a landowner as Ricardo pointed out. I have my doubts that it is legal for a private individual to own land - even when purchased through an ambassy and as many lawyers as possible, and signed and, and, and. without holding an FM-3/2. Well, where there is no judge, there is no judgment! Everything is possible in Mexico, as long as you didn't get caught. Again, FMT does not allow you anything other than entering the country for 180 days only. Even as there are Nomads her posting that they bought this or that house w/o an FM-3. It is illegal.

@ Schwlind
Nobody jumps on you because you are asking something. I learned that there are good people here as well as others > every flock has black sheep. What the heck! My hubby does not like the fact that I post here as he had bad exoperiance and is no longer willing to waste his time w/ marooons. But again, most Nomads are "normal".
To your Q: As far as I know an FM-2 is more easy to obtain if you are running a business in MX. Don't forget, you have to apply for an FM-2 (unlike FM-3) and the local INM officer will make a statement about you. The decission is made in MXCity, not in your local office. About your hubby, it depends on if he is classified as 'Dependent' in his FM-3. If so, it might very well be that he also has to obtain an FM-2. But , hey, go to the INM and ask. On specific questions they do have answers.
I was referring to the fact, if you go to the INM and ask: " What shall I do?" Then they are mostly helpless. But even that depends on the office where you go. Some are better some are only poor w/ info.

gnukid - 11-14-2009 at 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Whatever else, I just paid $395 bucks for an agent to renew my FM2. I'll be glad when All this nonsense is behind me.

I have a very hard time understanding why anyone would pay so much but I guess everything has a price. I personally think that if you want a visa you should meet with the agent and develop a positive relationship in the case of fm-3 renewel the cost is 2200 which is below $200.

Anyway, to your other question- I understand that there is a inmigratorio which mean permanently migrated I guess and there is naturalized which means you wish to become mexican I think Shari is naturalized so maybe she can speak to this as she refered to her first voting experience etc... as others have mentioned too.

Apparently things are different in every office and region...

DENNIS - 11-14-2009 at 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tano
That sounds like chaos to me.

Did you say, �Kaos,� Max?

It is, in a way. It's a different atmosphere, the Ensenada office, for sure. A place where showing deference will get one a lot farther than showing the written law. I wish I had a beer for every time I've heard an agent from that office say, "We [Americans] are going to have to quit using Mexico as their back yard." Seems to be an anthem they share much because a large segment of Mexican society wants them to act that way. They view the treatment of Mexicans in the US as unjust [of course, their reference is to the illegals] and they view harsh treatment of US visitors to be a line of payback. Cheap thrills.

DENNIS - 11-14-2009 at 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
I have a very hard time understanding why anyone would pay so much but I guess everything has a price. I personally think that if you want a visa you should meet with the agent and develop a positive relationship in the case of fm-3 renewel the cost is 2200 which is below $200.

Apparently things are different in every office and region...

FM2 is more. How much more, I don't care. I travel the path of least resistance.
I have a good relationship with the agent but, he's in business and he doesn't charge me any more than others. His competition charges around the same thing. It's an Ensenada thing.

Things are different in the Ensenada office. They make efforts to drive people to the agents. It makes their job easier...maybe more, I don't know.
Perhaps their work load is heavier. Don't know that either. I just pay and party.

gnukid - 11-14-2009 at 01:37 PM

In La Paz we sit on bales of hay in the INM barn and between singing rounds of I am a frito bandito we push some papers, if you can't pay you trade a bag of oranges or a fish, I guess the south is different than the north! eyole

oldlady - 11-14-2009 at 01:47 PM

Whew....I just called and e-mailed a hundred or so folks who are my nieghbors....we all purchased our land and obtained fides without FM-3's or FM-2's.
Explained squids post that none of our transactions are legal. About a half dozen Mexican lawyers are gonna get a bunch of calls and e-mails on Monday. Fun to stir folks up.

MitchMan - 11-14-2009 at 02:45 PM

I keep reading these posts on immigration matters and I am still confused on this FM-2 Vs FM-3 Vs Permanent Migratorio Vs Naturalized Mexican citizen.

If, as a USA citizen, you recently acquired a vacation home in the Baja (that you intend to have for the next 30 years) via a Fido , and your home in the USA has been and will always be your main domicile, and you currently have an FM3, will that FM3 be renewable for the next 30 years? Is that FM3 the best option in these circumstances? Can you become a naturalized Mexican citizen if you only spend vacation time in Baja at the vacation house? Can you get an FM2 in these circumstances? Is there any point to getting an FM2 in these circumstances?

I have read posts in this forum that stated that the FM3 in only renewable for two 5-yr terms.

Should I start my own thread on this?

I have read other threads on this issue, but I have never found a difinitive answer to my questions.

DENNIS - 11-14-2009 at 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MitchMan
I have read posts in this forum that stated that the FM3 in only renewable for two 5-yr terms.

I've never heard a time limitation for back to back FM3s but, as you state it, that would be 15 years.
The reason I'm progressing from step to step is only to get it over with which is ten years, five /FM3 and five/ FM2 then into inmigrado status and it's over. I have no desire for naturalization or citizenship or anything like that.

So many questions on this issue have become so distorted that I doubt anybody here has a definitive answer.

Another thing...everything that is valid today probably won't be in five more years. Long term planning is a waste of time.

Sorry I couldn't answer your questions.

Senora Calimar por favor

Sharksbaja - 11-14-2009 at 03:54 PM

You've made it abundantly clear that from your pov that many thousands of Fido holders minus an FM-2,3 are a bunch of idiots who apparently did not do their due diligence thus are potentially in a situation which could render them impotent to defend their investment.

Since you seem to have such a grasp of this conundrum would you please direct those stupidos to a solution. Should they fess up and declare themselves and property illegal or should they stfu and enjoy their tenancy?

Do tell.

Also, please explain the process of getting title without an approved Mex bank account which you can only get in some areas with a Fido or title. Remember, in order to get new services like electricity or city water one must possess an address, a bank account and maintain a min cash balance in it.

How do these marooons with just an FMT have and get all that stuff and how did they get Mex drivers licenses which also can be required? lol:

Tt appears that in order to get a Fido you must have a bank account in dollars but you need a Fido to get a bank account. You can't have it both ways. :rolleyes:

Good luck Oldlady! :lol:

end of confusing post

[Edited on 11-14-2009 by Sharksbaja]

Bajahowodd - 11-14-2009 at 04:58 PM

I can't speak for all, but I do know some folks who "own' property SOB and only transit via FM-T. They are in a gringo ghetto. They pay annual fees and the entity that runs the place deals with all the issues of taxes, utilities, Etc.

monoloco - 11-14-2009 at 05:06 PM

Yeah, I know plenty of people who have fidiocomisos here and have never had an FM3 and have had no problems, not to say that it's not an area ripe for future harvests from govt. agencias.

Bajahowodd - 11-14-2009 at 05:14 PM

However, that might be considered biting the hand that feeds you. Fact is that the Mexican government has been wrestling for some time with liberalizing land ownership laws. Wasn't so long ago the Fidei didn't exist. Long term, the plan is to bring as much foreign investment into the country as possible. The old guard Mexican pride will take a back seat to dinero. IMHO

MitchMan - 11-14-2009 at 05:18 PM

In La Paz, my cousin (USA citizen) who owns a house in La Paz got the house and the Fido without having a bank account, got his utilities for the house in his name by showing only his original title papers to the La Paz house.

However, he did have his FM3 at the time he got the house and Fido because he got the FM3 earlier due to his being the managing owner of a Mex Corp. He got the FM3 appropriate to that management position using his Mexican attorney's Baja business office address. I was a witness to all those things, in person, and he had the assistance of a La Paz attorney at every step of the way.

I personally have not seen the codified Mexican statutes to any of the laws relating to anything, so I don't really authoritatively know what the exact Mexican law is. But, I do know what I have seen. Also, I did not get the impression that the La Paz immigration office was particularly accomodating to foreigners. They seemed to follow procedures, step by step, rather meticulously. Also, I got the feeling if you couldn't understand Spanish completely, you would be out of luck at the INM in La Paz.

With regard to the legality of title with the fido holder having no Mexican visa, having only an FMT, or having an FM3, I have the following to say. "Ownership" of real estate is characterized as the list of rights that you have over a piece of real estate. If your rights are documented in the proper title documents, you have evidence of title. The issue is when someone contests your rights or wants to remove your rights or wants to exercise rights over your property, you are then put into a position of having to assert your rights as evidenced by your title documents. It appears to me that if you have no visa at all or if you only have an FMT, then you cannot use the Mexican courts to uphold your rights referred to in your title documents. That means you can't assert your rights, and that means that someone else my well prevail against you. That being the case, what good are title documents that evidence your title to Mexican real estate if you cannot assert or defend those rights because you do not have the requisite legal standing that only an FM3 or FM2 or Mexican citizenship affords? That, I believe, is the issue.

To my understanding, a foreigner who has no visa has no legal standing to defend rights or title to Mexican real estate. Don't expect the Mexican courts, funded by Mexican taxpayers, to defend a foreigner's real estate ownership rights. An FMT is just a tourist visa to allow you to be a tourist only. You can sign all the Mexican real estate contracts you want, but you don't have the legal standing to employ the Mexican court system to defend or assert your real estate contractual rights because an FMT doesn't give that kind of legal standing to the foreign tourist.

Assertions against your Mexican real estate that a Mexican legal entity may assert may likely be upheld by Mexican courts. Makes sense, it's a Mexican legal entity who probably pays Mexican income taxes making an assertion in Mexican court against your property and you don't have legal standing to counter or defend against the assertion. What do you think will happen...in Mexico. It's sort of like a jurisdictional thing.

So, it may not be actually "illegal" to buy baja real estate as a foreigner, and no one may actually stop the progress of the transaction. But, if you can't defend or assert your title because you have the wrong or no visa, and that, my friend, that renders your title vulnerable.

So long as no Mexican entity challenges your title, you may think everything is fine. You may go around for years and say "I legally own this real estate and I have the Escritura to prove it". In fact, even if you have title insurance with either of the two American Title Companies currently providing title insurance to USA citizens who ostensibly own Mexican real estate as evidenced by an Escritura, I believe those title companies would run, not walk, to the position that they can't defend your title (and therefore not pay you or even defend you in court) because of your not having the correct legal standing to assert rights to your title. I wouldn't pay a nickel for that kind of title.

[Edited on 11-15-2009 by MitchMan]

DENNIS - 11-14-2009 at 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
The old guard Mexican pride will take a back seat to dinero. IMHO

Maybe not, when they try to privatize the oil industry. That idea will hit some serious opposition.

toneart - 11-14-2009 at 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MitchMan what good are title documents that evidence your title to Mexican real estate if you cannot assert or defend your rights because you do not have the requisite legal standing that only an FM3 or FM2 affords? That, I believe, is the issue.

So, it may not be actually "illegal" to buy baja real estate as a foreigner, but, if you can't defend or assert your title because you have the wrong or no visa, that renders your title vulnerable. So long as no Mexican challenges you, your fine. I wouldn't pay a nickel for that kind of title.

Bingo!

squid - 11-14-2009 at 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja
You've made it abundantly clear that from your pov that many thousands of Fido holders minus an FM-2,3 are a bunch of idiots who apparently did not do their due diligence thus are potentially in a situation which could render them impotent to defend their investment.

Since you seem to have such a grasp of this conundrum would you please direct those stupidos to a solution. Should they fess up and declare themselves and property illegal or should they stfu and enjoy their tenancy?

Do tell.

Also, please explain the process of getting title without an approved Mex bank account which you can only get in some areas with a Fido or title. Remember, in order to get new services like electricity or city water one must possess an address, a bank account and maintain a min cash balance in it.

How do these marooons with just an FMT have and get all that stuff and how did they get Mex drivers licenses which also can be required? lol:

Tt appears that in order to get a Fido you must have a bank account in dollars but you need a Fido to get a bank account. You can't have it both ways. :rolleyes:

Good luck Oldlady! :lol:

end of confusing post
[Edited on 11-14-2009 by Sharksbaja]

Pretty wrong Mr. Fish!
In order to get a bank account you got to have an FM-3.
No Fido required.
(But the funny part on that issue is: in order to get a bank account you got to have an FM-3.
Well, it's a question of negotiations and phonecall from banker to INM.
Getting a DL no FM-3 is required > you pay you get it.

Never-the-less, something is right on your post: Buying land or just a house w/o an FM-3 , you are an idiot.
The only question remains: Why are these idiots risking all their properties this way. Why are idiots not going w/ the law as they do it in the U.S.???
The only answer is: b/c they are idiots.
well, I do take the word 'idiot' back and will say: they are just stupid and not well informed. What the heck is the diff?
Reason why I do this is simple. In Mexico you are not beeing informed - by no government department at all - about requirements to obtain what you need.
better example: There are plenty of Fido's which never went to MXCity for approval. The banke took the money and after several weeks gave the documents back to the applicant stating: All in best order. He gives a damn on FM-3's
Lawyers are taking your money for whatever you are requesting. They give a damn sh... as well if you got an FM-3/2 or not. They are doing the transaction just as YOU want it. No way that you are informed about the legal requirements.
(Some - you have to find one - are better / different of course!!)
Again and again and again
FMT allows you to enter the country for 180 days. no more.
The T stands for tourist. No rights - nothing.
You can not sign any legal papers. Well, you CAN if you do, but it is not legal > your signature is not legal < and if anybody interested in that issue finds out the transaction is null and void.
FM-3 allows you to sign (legal) documents, purching land a car w/ MX plates etc etc etc.
That is the main difference which is discussed here.
FM-2 is the next step, but I leave it out at this time.

I am not giving any advice to anybody. All those who made non law confirming transactions need to know for themselves what to do. LEARN about Mexico. Mexico is NOT the United States. And if you want to live here adjust to a land where you are a guest.
If you think you can do everything like you did it in the U.S. you are dead-wrong.
Think about this: Can a visitor (tourist) a foreigner who has to leave the U.S after 9o days according to his visa, can he purchase land?
I bet the answer is 'NO'. But I'm not sure abou that.
Just an example.

comitan - 11-14-2009 at 07:28 PM

squid
I'm not disagreeing with anything you say, but it sure makes me wonder about all the tourist that go to Cabo and buy timeshares & Condo's.

shari - 11-14-2009 at 07:48 PM

I went through the FM3 process when I was teaching at UABCS, then went to rentista after that and have now got citizenship which allows me to vote, buy land and I have the same rights as any national which is wonderful.

In my personal experience, I preferred to deal with the head office in La Paz as our local GN office often made alot of mistakes that were costly later. I also chose to hire an agent to do all my renewals etc... and boy did things ever go smoothly after that and it ended up saving me money in the long run as I didnt have to make trips out. I swear by Alonso Lopez in La Paz...the immigration office much prefers to deal with agents and there are no hassles. Alonsos email is alonsobaja@prodigy.net.mx (the agents fees include paying for the visa you require. You dont necessarily have to deal with your local office.
But it is of the utmost importance to get your papers in order as things can go very wrong very quickly and cost you alot of money and irritation.

Riom - 11-14-2009 at 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by squid

Getting a DL no FM-3 is required > you pay you get it.

Like everything, this varies. Currently in San Felipe an FM-3 (or better) is required for a Baja California drivers license. Like everything, this might change next week or for a different person.

Quote:

Originally posted by squid
Think about this: Can a visitor (tourist) a foreigner who has to leave the U.S after 9o days according to his visa, can he purchase land?
I bet the answer is 'NO'.

Yes of course they can. Anybody (with the exception of nationals from a few countries like Libya and Iran) can buy and sell any amount of real estate they like in the US, without even having to go there.

Thousands of Europeans, tens of thousands of Canadians, and many Mexican citizens have seasonal second homes in the US and visit them on visitors visas (normally up to six months entry permitted at a time). There's some withholding on capital gains tax when they sell, but otherwise they can buy/sell just the same as a resident (and have full rights to sue and be sued).

Same for Canada, nearly all countries in Europe, and (with certain limits) Australia and New Zealand. I've brought and sold a house in six countries and Mexico is the only country that has required me to have any form of residence document. Indeed generally owning a property does not give any additional residence rights.

There are some countries in the Caribbean and SE Asia where property ownership and residence rights get intermingled, but in general it's an especially Mexican concept to require a residence visa to buy/sell a property.

If I buy some vacation rental apartments in Cancun, sight unseen, and have them rented and managed by a local company and then sell them ten years later having never even set foot in Mexico, it does seem odd that I then have to apply for temporary residence in Mexico (and not use it as I still don't visit) to sell them.

I'm not saying that's not the case, just very unusual (and daft) compared to the rest of the planet, and might even be against GATT free trade rules, to require foreigners to apply to become "residents" just so they can enforce a contract.

As it happens, I have an FM-3 as I do spend part of the year in Mexico, but if I was just a real estate investor, with the whole world to choose from, it would make me (and many others) cross Mexico off a list as a place to invest.

Hook - 11-15-2009 at 01:42 AM

Well, Shari's first hand experience seems to indicate that the Chismorrero Calamari is wrong.

Que sorpresa!

KAT54 - 11-15-2009 at 06:35 AM

Squid is just another idiot from Mulege
that is expressing his opinion.
No person has ever lost his house with a fido
because they bought it using a FMT.
Tourists buy property.
The FMT makes them legal in the country
and that is all you need to buy.
Later the FM3 protects your property.
Squid needs to show us his proof.
Insurance is between the insurer and the insurance company.
It is in the fine print not governed by the government.
I wonder if he lives near Buenaventura?

comitan - 11-15-2009 at 08:28 AM

Shari

Sure is right about immigration in La Paz, they are the friendliest people and they do speak English and will more than help you through any of the processes there is really no need for outside assistance if you are here to go through the process.

squid - 11-15-2009 at 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KAT54Squid is just another idiot from Mulege that is expressing his opinion.No person has ever lost his house with a fido because they bought it using a FMT.Tourists buy property.The FMT makes them legal in the country and that is all you need to buy.Later the FM3 protects your property.Squid needs to show us his proof.Insurance is between the insurer and the insurance company.It is in the fine print not governed by the government.I wonder if he lives near Buenaventura?

Now� comes idiot # 111 and knows everything better (that's what idiots do the best) Those who can read have an advantage Pal! The FMT makes you legal in the country > for 180 days only. > nothing else! But the law does not make you legal to sign ANY documents NOT EVEN A SALES CONTRACT ON A CAR WITH MEXICAN PLATES. Don't you get it? Read other posts here and do it�� s l o w l y > as your thinking apparatus only works�� s l o w l y. A title on your land is worth no nothing as long as you signed it while holding an FMT.

@ comitan
Timeshares are not ownership - as far as I know. You are purchasing the right to rent your timeshare. You are NOT the owner. That makes it different from ownership. Condo owners are ownerrs per se. IMHO.
And, o.k., comitan, one might argue over the word 'legal / illegal' in this case. My opinion is, if you i.e. sign a real estate contract or only a house purchasing contract (on leased land) etc. and the law does not allow you to do that b/c your visa is not the visa which provides you w/ the right to sign those contracts, I think your signature is ,,, well,,, I think illegal ,,, at least null and void. Again, the law did not allow you to sign that contract. o.k., illegal or not. what the heck is the difference? It is pointed out here over and over again that titles w/o holding an FM-3/2 are not worth a dime if it comes to ANY legal dispute. Period.

I am more wondering about such ignorants who think they can do anything they want aginst existing law and regulations. Back in the U.S. they wouldn't even argue over such an issue > obey the law is the motto there! Why not in Mexico? These folks are either just not good informed about existing laws ore ignorants. Make your pick. What is so troublesome for these folks getting the correct Visa first and then doing any transaction they want accorrding to Mexican law? Anyway, if one knows the problem and then arguing over that issue, risking to loose the property if any problem accurs, ONE MUST BE AN IDIOT. Why not just going - now after knowing the risk before any dispute arises - and apply for the correct visa? Which is ONLY an FM-3 or 2.� Holding the correct visa in case of any dispute in the future can't hurt. Right or wrong? Only idiots ignore high risks losing their investment or retirement savings invested in a home in Mexico. A title obtained without a correct visa is a title obtained against existing law. I am out of here as I am wasting my time. (Same as my hubby told me: you are wasting your time w/ some marooons) :fire:

KAT54 - 11-15-2009 at 10:47 AM

Squid
Could you tell us about one person who
has lost their property and fido because they
bought it only having a tourist visa?
There are thousands of fidos in baja
purchased just that way.
Where is you legal source.
I think this is just your opinion you are forcing on others.
Can you guide us to your information?
Is this posted anywhere?
I have never seen it.
Also you statement that immigrato can be
obtained in 3 years of having a FM2 is not completely true.
Only certain people qualify.
The rest of us will need 5 years.
I will bet you do not even qualify.

squid - 11-15-2009 at 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KAT54
Squid
Could you tell us about one person who
has lost their property and fido because they
bought it only having a tourist visa?
There are thousands of fidos in baja
purchased just that way.
Where is you legal source.
I think this is just your opinion you are forcing on others.
Can you guide us to your information?
Is this posted anywhere?
Also you statement that immigrato can be
obtained in 3 years of having a FM2 is not completely true.
Only certain people qualify.
The rest of us will need 5 years.
I will bet you do not even qualify.

I am not willing to discuss this w/ dummies who do not read carefully enough what's written and turning words around.
Period

oldlady - 11-15-2009 at 12:09 PM

Thank, God.

fender - 11-15-2009 at 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady
Thank, God.

obviously there's a clueless calamari unleashed ... but let's keep references to false prophets out of baja discussions. salud

comitan - 11-15-2009 at 12:16 PM

I think its time she starts listening to her husband. :lol:

DENNIS - 11-15-2009 at 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by comitan
I think its time she starts listening to her husband. :lol:

I would prefer an oath of silence although she did, once upon a time, give up this classic admonition:

"You better don't." :lol:

[Edited on 11-15-2009 by DENNIS]

Sharksbaja - 11-15-2009 at 05:17 PM

(sigh) I swear sometimes you just can't be a smartass and understood at the same time. :rolleyes:

No reply please, you better don't! :bounce:

DENNIS - 11-15-2009 at 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja
(sigh) I swear sometimes you just can't be a smartass and understood at the same time. :rolleyes:

No reply please, you better don't! :bounce:

Corky...who you be talkin to?

Sharksbaja - 11-15-2009 at 05:36 PM

Not you Dennis. I should have put quotation marks on my "marooon" comments.

Sharksbaja - 11-15-2009 at 05:37 PM

Oh, and "idiots" tambien. :biggrin:

DENNIS - 11-15-2009 at 05:40 PM

Thank you, Amigo. I was prepared to have my feelings hurt.

this site says you don't need a tourist visa

mckayshrimp - 11-21-2009 at 04:54 PM

I suspect this is incorrect but it looks like they know

http://mexico.visahq.com/

DENNIS - 11-21-2009 at 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mckayshrimp
I suspect this is incorrect but it looks like they know

They would probably tell you that you don't have to pay taxes either. If you listen to people like this, you'll soon be in more trouble than you can imagine.