BajaNomad - $ from hurricane insurance claims?

$ from hurricane insurance claims?

bajateresa - 12-5-2009 at 02:37 PM

has anybody rec'd money from their insurance company on claims of damage from the hurricane?

we did not suffer damage big enuff to file a claim with Bancomer, our insurer, but several folks on our beach did, and yesterday a few rec'd an email from Bancomer denying their claims. the stated reason was "Article 70," and none of our friends has a policy enabling them to look up Article 70... some imagine that the plan may exclude hurricane damage to homes located too close to the water...

on Monday some of these friends plan to head to Bancomer in Mulege to get the skinny on Article 70 and, hopefully, file an appeal....

Lauriboats - 12-5-2009 at 03:20 PM

I guess that we are the lucky ones, our house is next to the water 8 miles south of Mulege. Our insurance adjuster from ING was at our house within two weeks, he spoke english and our money was deposted into our Bancomer account three weeks after our contractor submitted the bid.

woody with a view - 12-5-2009 at 03:35 PM

i'm thinking that they came up with 69 reasons why they SHOULD pay your claims. then the new guy chimed in with what they will tell you when you sit down with them.

good luck. there is power in numbers. don't take their crap. they're trying to stall.

One of those is me........

CasaManzana - 12-6-2009 at 09:29 AM

We did in fact get a 'rejected' notice from our Bancomer claim that stated "Article 70" in the policy as the reason. Is there ANYONE out there with a Bancomer policy who can look up to see what Article 70 really is??????? Four of us at Posada are in the same "claim rejected" boat.

Santiago - 12-6-2009 at 09:39 AM

I have a feeling this is a stupid question but don't you get a copy of the policy when, or shortly thereafter, you pays your monies? How else do you know what you are buying?

vandenberg - 12-6-2009 at 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Santiago
I have a feeling this is a stupid question but don't you get a copy of the policy when, or shortly thereafter, you pays your monies? How else do you know what you are buying?

Santiago,
This is probably a question many other Nomads were wondering.
Love to hear the answer. :?:

capt. mike - 12-6-2009 at 10:30 AM

i heard those with ins. from ING did ok.

why do they call it a bank "trust".... :no:

if that happened to me i'd go straight to the bank and lift el diablo.

Bancomer policy........???

CasaManzana - 12-6-2009 at 11:40 AM

"We don't got no stinkin' policy mon". Of the (at least) six here at Posada Concepcion with Bancomer home insurance, NONE were ever issued a policy that was promised. Should have been the squeaky wheel I guess.

toneart - 12-6-2009 at 11:49 AM

Looks like it is time to get lawyered up. U2U me if you want a good referral.

You might also try Julieta at the Notario in Santa Rosalia. She is pretty knowledgeable and connected. She can poke around and get answers. Another source for help is Carlos Milon at the internet shop across from Equipales.

vandenberg - 12-6-2009 at 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
Looks like it is time to get lawyered up. U2U me if you want a good referral.

You mean, time to throw some good money after bad. :biggrin:

I would be thoroughly embarrased having to admit not having any paperwork outlining what I paid my money for. :no:

NOT without paperwork....POLICY

CasaManzana - 12-6-2009 at 02:24 PM

Exactly what we walked out with- an outline of the coverage we expected to get. Details like the coverage for electronics theft, fire damage, HURRICANES, earthquakes etc are all outlined on this one page sheet titled, in the upper right corner, POLIZA DE SEGURO = INSURANCE POLICY.

toneart - 12-6-2009 at 03:00 PM

Yes! That is the whole policy. It is the same with other Mexican Insurance companies too. Also, it is a legal document, written in Spanish. The two insurance companies I dealt with for T.S. John and T.S. Julio additionally issued a one page duplicate in English, but that one in Spanish is your legal policy.

Unfortunately, I wasn't covered for Hurricane Jimena...the worst in history and the one that did the most damage. The company that I was insured by for T.S. Julio stalled with their payment. By the deadline to renew, they hadn't paid my claim for last year yet. I finally got the payment

My adjuster had stopped communicating with me. He and his department would not answer my emails. My agent, who lives in Texas persevered for me and finally got the check for me, a year later, in September, but way too late to get protected this year. The other company, for T.S. John was even worse! They all play these stalling games and hope you will just give up. Having said that, some got checks right away. Go figure.

Your situation is different in that you and others received denials for your claims. I realize that it is Mexico, but they solicited these policies. I remember the signs in the Mulege branch. This is a real breach of faith and probably illegal for them to deny. I think it can be reversed with the right person going to bat for you.

Phil S - 12-6-2009 at 05:28 PM

Sounds to me like BanComer just stuck the money in their pockets. If there is a banking regulatory somewhere in Mexico, I'd write them a letter and ask for them to investigate.

arrowhead - 12-6-2009 at 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CasaManzana
Exactly what we walked out with- an outline of the coverage we expected to get. Details like the coverage for electronics theft, fire damage, HURRICANES, earthquakes etc are all outlined on this one page sheet titled, in the upper right corner, POLIZA DE SEGURO = INSURANCE POLICY.

I can read you coverage page when I blow-up the size of the image you posted.

1) The policy expired 5/23/2009
2) Your coverage was for: Fire, Earthquake, Robbery and Public Liability. There is no stated coverage for flood or wind damage.

Save the money on a lawyer, unless you have some more to show, you are not covered.

Diver - 12-6-2009 at 10:31 PM

Can you read where it says " Riesgos Hidrometerioligicos " ?

Doesn't that mean "weather hazards"; such as floods and winds ?

Riom - 12-7-2009 at 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
Yes! That is the whole policy. It is the same with other Mexican Insurance companies too.

My broker in San Felipe (Alani's) does always give me a copy of my full 24 page household policy from Seguros Atlas (in Spanish).

Bancomer also have a "general conditions" for one of their household policies (doesn't have a cláusula 70 though, no idea if it is the same policy):
http://www.segurosbancomer.com.mx/seguros/pdf/cghogar.pdf

Given that it does exist (since there's an example online), Bancomer should provide a document explaining the clause. The "condiciones generales" applicable to that policy are what to ask for.

Rob

arrowhead - 12-7-2009 at 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diver
Can you read where it says " Riesgos Hidrometerioligicos " ?

Doesn't that mean "weather hazards"; such as floods and winds ?

You may be right Diver. I cannot make out that word too well on my old CRT monitor, but now that you tell me what you see, I think it is "Riesgos Hidrometerioligicos". Manzana is going to have to get a copy of the definition of coverage document that goes with the one page. It may either include or exclude "huracáns" and windstorms in Hidrometerioligicos.

UPDATE: It occured to me when mentioning the definitions of coverage that there can't possibly be an "Article 70" in the insurance policy. Those things are only short pamphlets. Then I remembered something from long ago and looked it up. Mexico has a "LEY SOBRE EL CONTRATO DE SEGURO", which is a federal law regarding insurance companies and policies. There is an "Artículo 70" in that law:

Artículo 70.- Las obligaciones de la empresa quedarán extinguidas si demuestra que el asegurado, el beneficiario o los representantes de ambos, con el fin de hacerla incurrir en error, disimulan o declaran inexactamente hechos que excluirían o podrían restringir dichas obligaciones. Lo mismo se observará en caso de que, con igual propósito, no le remitan en tiempo la documentación de que trata el artículo anterior.

I can give a rough translation:

Article 70 - The obligations of the company will be canceled if it shows that the insured, the beneficiary or the representatives of both, in order to cause a payment in error, conceal or state inaccurate facts that, if known, could restrict or exclude such obligations of the company. Likewise, the same would occur if, for the same purpose, the insured does not timely submit the documentation required by the previous article.

At least now Manzana may know what questions to ask next.

http://www.diputados.gob.mx/LeyesBiblio/pdf/211.pdf

a couple more tidbits......

CasaManzana - 12-7-2009 at 06:26 AM

Yes, that 5/23/09 date to expire was IF the polocy was paid annually. In my case they are taking a ongoing monthly deduction from my (required) Bancomer account. And I should add that the two Bancomer insurance adjusters who were here eight days after Jimina, taking pictures and handing out forms, did say my policy was in effect to cover my storm damage.

Santiago - 12-7-2009 at 07:04 AM

AppleHouse: Thanks for posting the cover page and the resulting explanatory posts. I find this stuff fascinating. Surely Bancomer is not the insurance company; aren't they just marketing this to their customers for some other insurance company for a piece of the profits?

monoloco - 12-7-2009 at 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diver
Can you read where it says " Riesgos Hidrometerioligicos " ?

Doesn't that mean "weather hazards"; such as floods and winds ?

That is what it would seem to me. I also noticed that right above that it explicitly excludes volcanic eruptions but I see no exclusions for wind or flood. Hopefully you will be able to reach some resolution without going to court, in my experience Mexican court cases go on for 7-10 years with the only winners being the abogados.

k-rico - 12-7-2009 at 10:10 AM

"Riesgos Hidrometerioligicos" is the only category that has a coinsurance of 10%. What does that mean?

[Edited on 12-7-2009 by k-rico]

coins.gif - 22kB

The beat goes on.........

CasaManzana - 12-7-2009 at 03:22 PM

In a meeting with the Mulege Bancomer manager today (12/7) we learn that he has no knowledge of the Article 70 that is being used to reject our hurricane damage claims, but is very willing to find our answers. After several calls to the mainland, we learn that 'Arrowhead' in an earlier posting here had it pretty well pegged. It is not a clause in our policy but rather a Mexican insurance regulatory law that says basically "we can reject your claim if we feel we don't have enough information to make a decision". After all the photos the adjusters have taken, and the photos I took and offered, and the many forms filled out in great detail they seek more information....hummm. Can you say s-t-a-l-l?
The insured have the right to try to satisfy the rejected claim with 'more information' and we now have a phone number in Monterrey and a name at that end to try to do this. This failing, there is some sort of arbitration board called CONDUSEF we can request when we give up on the Bancomer road. News at 11.

roundtuit - 12-14-2009 at 03:17 PM

BUMP update on insurance claims as I am looking for one on house

toneart - 12-14-2009 at 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CasaManzana
In a meeting with the Mulege Bancomer manager today (12/7) we learn that he has no knowledge of the Article 70 that is being used to reject our hurricane damage claims, but is very willing to find our answers. After several calls to the mainland, we learn that 'Arrowhead' in an earlier posting here had it pretty well pegged. It is not a clause in our policy but rather a Mexican insurance regulatory law that says basically "we can reject your claim if we feel we don't have enough information to make a decision". After all the photos the adjusters have taken, and the photos I took and offered, and the many forms filled out in great detail they seek more information....hummm. Can you say s-t-a-l-l?
The insured have the right to try to satisfy the rejected claim with 'more information' and we now have a phone number in Monterrey and a name at that end to try to do this. This failing, there is some sort of arbitration board called CONDUSEF we can request when we give up on the Bancomer road. News at 11.

Keep at it, Jim....what a drag, but I do believe you will eventually prevail. Bancomer openly solicited these insurance policies in Mulege, knowing full well that the river has flooded. They had signs up in the bank! Anybody making application would surely have asked about whether it covers floods.

They wanted a piece of the competition. Many other companies were surprisingly, still issuing policies that covered flood. They all stall. Mine did (two different companies in two different years) but they eventually paid. I had to chase it down, but they paid. The last one paid one year after I made the claim. :yes:

Edited to read: "flood and hurricane damage".

[Edited on 12-14-2009 by toneart]

Thanks Toneart...full spead ahead- which way IS ahead?

CasaManzana - 12-14-2009 at 08:41 PM

If you have Bancomer home insurance- you don't........ (many here at Posada know or have followed the Bancomer rejected claims of Wayne and Ronnie, Mike and Lynne and partners Pearson, and Jim and Barbara. Here is a little history and an update).
Here at Posada Concepcion, we have three totally rejected damage claims filed with Bancomer home insurance. The rejection notice came two and a half months after submitting hurricane Jimena damage claims as directed by the insurance adjusters. These adjusters were here within 10 days after the storm to take pictures and issue claim instruction forms.
The rejection of our claims stated the reason as Article 70 in Mexican law (Article 70.- The obligations of the insurance company shall be exempted should it prove the insured party, the beneficiary or the legal proxies of both, leading to make it incur in a mistake, inaccurately dissimulate or declare facts or events which would exclude or could restrict such obligations. And this would apply also if the information is deemed insufficient for making any decisions).
Now today, in an eighty minute meeting with the Senor Diego, Bancomer bank manager, he was able to get a call through to Senor Gomez at the claims office in Monterrey. The same Senor Gomez who could not be reached by us this last week, and the same Senor Gomez who signed the rejection notices we all received. He told us our claims were rejected because the houses in the Mulege area are of inferior construction, leaving the implication that if we had good houses we would not have had damage claims. He said the cases are closed and he is finished talking about it- "I wash my hands of this whole business".
Senor Diego offered the address of the insurance arbitration board as our only other option. Yet we learn from an attorney that Bancomer is not bound by law to participate in the arbitration process, but only voluntarily. Senor Diego also offered the comment that there are only one or two claims receiving settlement "of some sort" and that there are "many many rejected claims" with unhappy people.
So it looks like you can pay Bancomer for home insurance or not pay Bancomer for home insurance, the policy is the same.
Stay tuned to this station as Plan B is to issue a call to the River People, Vista Azul and outlying beaches who fall into the rejected Bancomer category for a mass movement to the arbitration board after the holidays.... news at 11

arrowhead - 12-14-2009 at 09:23 PM

You, or somebody down there, should try to get the word out on Bancomer so people can change their insurance policies to another company that actually pays off. Hurricane season starts up again in only 6 months.

roundtuit - 12-14-2009 at 09:47 PM

I think that is what is trying to be said in a nice way This is being spread in many ways So pass the word. Does not only pertain to this area. This all of Mexico

pacside - 12-14-2009 at 10:19 PM

Truly sorry about all the folks in Mulege having difficulty with their bancomer homeowner's insurance. What a fraud...who are they to determine whether a casa is built to their 'standard' and who sets that standard in order to determine claim reimbursement eligibility. Keep fighting and as a group hopefully you will receive some compensation.

Looking to buy homeowner's insurance...anyone have a company they like and has a history of paying?

pacside

axa

mulege marv - 12-15-2009 at 07:43 AM

this is good one and have not heard of anyone totally unhappy with them. we have it, its pricey but ............. we received an fair offer rather quickly after jimena. she is in calixico and they also do car ins.

Lynda Bilyeu
686-577-1622

Santiago - 12-15-2009 at 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CasaManzana
He told us our claims were rejected because the houses in the Mulege area are of inferior construction, leaving the implication that if we had good houses we would not have had damage claims.

This kind of stuff just drives me nucking futz.
1. How was the amount of insurance determined? In other words, how did the carrier determine that they were not insuring for more than it's value/replacement cost? Didn't someone come out and at the very least look at your property? Take pictures and measurements? Type of construction? Relationship to the rio? You know, DUE DILIGENCE?
And then wouldn't they determine that in fact your home was of 'inferior construction' BEFORE they gave you a policy and either deny coverage or raise your premium accordingly? Did anyone point this out to Pontius Pilot during the phone call?

Addressing Santiego's questions..

CasaManzana - 12-15-2009 at 10:05 AM

In my case, I took photos of our casa into the Bancomer/Mulege manager and ask if they would insure me. He asked a few questions about the %-age of wood to brick and that was a done deal. Case 2- he went in and they wrote up the policy and said we will send out an inspector and if you fail our standards we will refund your money. They never sent out an inspector. Case 3- a person came to Posada to look at his house and said "fine"....come in and we will issue a policy....and they did. All these houses are constructed as well or better than average houses in the area IMHO.
I am hoping all the other "rejectees" will respond to a Call-to- stand-up-and-be-counted group effort in January when we try the arbitration board.

Lauriboats - 12-15-2009 at 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mulege marv
this is good one and have not heard of anyone totally unhappy with them. we have it, its pricey but ............. we received an fair offer rather quickly after jimena. she is in calixico and they also do car ins.

Lynda Bilyeu
686-577-1622

We also had Lynda as our agent and we are very happy with our Jimena claim payout, below is her email.
lyndasinsurance@yahoo.com

Santiago - 12-15-2009 at 03:20 PM

LB & MM: I'm glad to hear you were treated well. Since your agent is in the USA, can you give us a synopsis of how the claims period went? Who did you call/e-mail first and then what happened? How did AXA determine your homes were insurable and for what amounts. Maybe how the underwriting process is being conducted would be a clue for others in the future: little to no underwriting = no claims paid as they don't intend to anyway?
Thanks

HouseApples: maybe you can get a better understanding by having someone in your group join other boards where there are large communities of ex pats and post your problems. For example, San Carlos and Guadalajara could have well established support groups for these issues. I suspect somewhere is Mexico is a legal firm that has dealt with this before and these groups may be able to point you to the good guys.

why

mulege marv - 12-15-2009 at 06:55 PM

why deal with all the rest when you dont have to . you wanted to know of a reliable agent/company, give linda a call. very happy here and we are ON THE RIVER. good luck

Quote:

Originally posted by Santiago
LB & MM: I'm glad to hear you were treated well. Since your agent is in the USA, can you give us a synopsis of how the claims period went? Who did you call/e-mail first and then what happened? How did AXA determine your homes were insurable and for what amounts. Maybe how the underwriting process is being conducted would be a clue for others in the future: little to no underwriting = no claims paid as they don't intend to anyway?
Thanks

HouseApples: maybe you can get a better understanding by having someone in your group join other boards where there are large communities of ex pats and post your problems. For example, San Carlos and Guadalajara could have well established support groups for these issues. I suspect somewhere is Mexico is a legal firm that has dealt with this before and these groups may be able to point you to the good guys.

[Edited on 12-16-2009 by mulege marv]

Santiago - 12-15-2009 at 07:05 PM

Curiosity.
You knowingly paid more for your insurance: "pricey" was your word. I don't think you did this out of ignorance; in fact, I suspect you had a reason to feel that the extra money you would spend would some day be worth it. Turns out you were right. If you feel you can, please tell us what this was. Might help a lot of folks.

well

mulege marv - 12-15-2009 at 07:13 PM

we always had insurance, i used the word pricey because it was compared to the one we had the year before, that we never had a claim with but to others we knew were paying pennies on the dollar after john. this was our first time with water in the house, AXA made it easier than any U.S. ins company i ever dealt with . if you want to compare and shop around ,be my guest. they are renewing policies that had claims ( some 3 times) so just for our piece of mind we arent shopping around, "you get what you pay for". lots of horrer stories here, just as soon not be one of em.
[Edited on 12-16-2009 by mulege marv]

[Edited on 12-16-2009 by mulege marv]

WOW...is home insurance just that way...

CasaManzana - 12-15-2009 at 08:57 PM

...ya pay more and you get more....??? Yes my Bancomer insurance was cheap....very cheap.....three hundred bucks a year for my $100K casa. But in my case, and the other rejected claims, we thought Bancomer was SOLID AS A ROCK. Reputation we thought would be important for them in the long haul. Where did we go wrong?

Possibility of a Class Action Suit Against Bancomer?

len - 12-15-2009 at 10:45 PM

When I read that there are many unhappy people in the Mulege area who have had their Bancomer insurance claims denied for damage caused by Jimena, I wondered about the possibility of filing a class action suit. After a little searching on the internet I found some information at the following link:
http://www.iclg.co.uk/index.php?area=4&country_results=1...

The following are a few quotes from this website that deals with international laws:

Q: Do you have a specific procedure for handling a series or group of related claims? If so, please outline this.
A: No general legislation with a specific procedure has been enacted in Mexico so far, but different laws have introduced provisions granting standing to file legal actions aimed to protect a group of persons with common interests. The following is a description of those laws with class action standing provisions:
Federal jurisdiction.
The Federal Consumer Protection Law (Ley Federal de Protección al Consumidor) grants the Federal Consumer Protection Agency (Procuraduría Federal del Consumidor) standing to initiate class actions on behalf of consumers in protection of their rights.
Local jurisdictions.
The Civil Procedure Code of the State of Coahuila grants standing to any class member, association, and/or private organisations to start litigation.
The Civil Procedure Code of the State of Morelos grants standing to the Public Prosecutor (Ministerio Publico) and to associations (non political or unions) or any interested party that guarantees an appropriate defence of the compromised interest to file an action.
The Civil Procedure Code of the State of Puebla grants legal standing to any class member, association, and/or private organisations to start litigation.
Currently, the Federal Congress and the Mexico City local legislature are moving forward to pass bills with specific procedures to file class actions (“the Federal Bill” and “the Mexico City Bill).
On April 23, 2009 the Federal House of Representatives passed a constitutional amendment intended to enable class actions at the Federal level.
It is difficult to determine which initiative will pass first, but it is likely that federal and/or a Mexico City class action procedure will be passed soon.
Administrative and constitutional procedure (Amparo) courts have recognised in recent years standing to associations and organised groups in claims and injunctions filed against the government regarding acts affecting environment, health and zoning rules.
Q 1.5 Is there a minimum threshold/number of claims that can be managed under the procedure?
A: Under the Federal Bill and the Mexico City Bill if the lawsuit is filed by an association, a governmental agency or the General Attorney, there is no minimum number of claims that can be managed under the procedure.
=========================
I interpret this and other information at that site to say that perhaps that a new law for filing a Class Action suit in Mexico may already have been passed. If several people are getting the same reason for their claim being deniedl, this may be a possible route to go.
I agree that we should try to spread the word that people seeking home insurance should be very cautious about buying a policy through Bancomer.

Len

Lauriboats - 12-16-2009 at 07:45 AM

Quote:

Attached is an email at we received from Lynda prior to purchasing our policy, please note that these rates were from last year and may have gone up. I would like to add that when I contacted Lynda to report that we had hurricane damage, she told me that she had already turned in all of her customers names, in the Mulege area, to the adjusters.
--- On Thu, 6/5/08, Lynda Bilyeu <lyndasinsurance@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Lynda Bilyeu <lyndasinsurance@yahoo.com>
Subject: Lynda's insurance agency, San Felipe, B.C Mexico

Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 1:52 AM

Dear Jim & Lauri,

One of our very good home owners clients in Mulege sent your local telephone directory that has most everyone's e-mail address inside.

I am a licensed (American) insurance agent in Mexico . Our office services people from Mexicali , Ensenada ,San Felipe, all camps south to Gonzaga Bay to Mulege and Loreto.

If you are not presently insured with your home and automobile insurance we will be happy to send rate and any information you might need. The home owners is an all risk policy that covers hurricane, something a lot of Mexican companies are no longer doing. As an example of the premium for home coverage is $50,000 is $270.49, $75,000 for $386.88, $100,000 for $503.24, $150,000 for $736.09, $200,000 for $968.86. We can costom fit your insurance needs.

Our auto insurance is great. We have what is called Drivers License insurance that covers any and all automobiles you my drive in the Republic of Mexico . This is liability only and covers one or two drivers on the same policy. This runs $177.32 a year. This includes $20,000 legal aid and guaranteed bail bond. Full coverage would need a rate on the value of the vehicle.

We have excellent service for claims that have paid in a timely manner. We paid 2 claims in full after the flood a couple of years ago and since then people (by word of mouth) have been coming to us for their insurance needs.

My e-mail is: lyndasinsurance@yahoo.com

We would be happy to help you with your insurance needs. Please e-mail for quote. Our phone number in San Felipe from the states is 011-52-686-577-1622.

Thank you for your time.

Lynda

[Edited on 12-16-2009 by Lauriboats]

Hook - 12-16-2009 at 08:48 AM

Jesus, does everything that Bancomer touches turn to <chit or what?????